An eCommerce Podcast Hosted by Brett Curry

Your Amazon listings are probably NOT as optimized as you think. Your products likely aren’t merchandised as well as they could be either. In this episode, Brandon shows you how to find obscure keywords to dramatically grow your sales and rankings. He also shows you how to merchandise your product to fly off the shelf. 

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We also talk about AI, competitor research, new product development, and what it will take to get ahead and stay ahead on Amazon. 

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Brandon is in an elite club of 8 figure sellers on Amazon. His brands will sell over $30 million this year on Amazon, and he’s targeting over $50 million in sales next year. 

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Here’s a look at what we discuss:

• The two main factors that impact ranking on Amazon: 1. Performance and 2. Relevance and how to improve BOTH.
• How to find obscure keywords that you can rank for quickly to boost sales.
• The 2 biggest mistakes sellers make when it comes to merchandising and how to fix them easily.
• How to get feedback faster and easier on product designs so that you don’t waste time or money on products or merchandising that’s likely to fail.
• How to use AI to quickly synthesize what your competitors are doing well, what they’re doing poorly, and what you should do about it.
• Using AI to get a clear picture of your ideal buyer.
• How stacking small changes can allow you to double or triple sales year over year.

Transcript:

Brandon:

I got off the stage. I walk into the hallway, a guy chases me into the hallway from the audience and says, that's my listing. I said, do me a favor and please change your title tonight. Like literally, here's the suggested title that I gave in the talk. He comes back to me the next night, we're out of social after a whole day of audience, he had his team change it. He comes back to me and he shows me a screenshot of 20 different keywords that have gone from either not indexed to top 10 immediately and says, credit

Brett:

In the bank, let's utilize that.

Brandon:

Yeah, he said, we did the math on this. We're going to make over a hundred thousand dollars more profit this year just from that one change.

Brett:

It's time for another spicy curry hot. Take the part of the show when I get just a little bit spicy. So here's the hot take for this show. You're likely focusing on the wrong keywords. Either you're shooting too big or you're not shooting for what's relevant or you're not looking at what are the untapped opportunities. Example, let's say you sell toiletries bags. Should you just go after the keyword, toiletries bags, or should you think about something more specific? Maybe you sell toiletry bags for men. Maybe they're leather. Maybe there's a waterproof component on the inside. So I think you want to look at what problem does your product solve? What are the opportunity keywords out there? What could you be relevant for and what's going to move the needle? And then are you thinking about untapped things like, I didn't even know this, but DOP kit is another word for a toiletries bag.

So focus on the right keywords and look for untapped opportunities. That's where you're going to create a compounding effect. Little wins with little untapped keywords will snowball, and then you go after the big stuff after that. So focus on the right keywords. Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and today my guest is Brandon Young from DataDive and Seller Systems. This cat is an eight figure seller on Amazon, and so we're going to talk about how can you double your traffic and conversions on Amazon by digging into the data and understanding things that most people don't understand and finding obscure keywords and obscure opportunities and leveraging AI and understanding the algorithm and all kinds of fun stuff. I first met Brandon in Fort Lauderdale. We were both speaking at Seller Summit.

Shout out to Steve and Tony. Awesome event. You saw on Amazon, you got a 10 seller summit in the future. We both spoke there. I heard his presentation and I was blown away, and so I had to get him on the podcast. And then I also found out my team loves the tool that he designed. So data dive. It's an amazing keyword research tool. My team uses it on the Daily, and so I was just thrilled to meet Brandon and now pumped to have 'em on the show. So with that, Brandon, how you doing, man? Thanks for coming on and welcome to the show,

Brandon:

Brett. I really appreciate you having me on. It was really great to meet you at Steve's event. Can't say enough about how awesome Steve is, and it's such a little known secret, his event because he caps it on only a couple hundred sellers. He wants it to be intimate, and I tell him he could have 2000 people on an event with his following and with the following he has, but he doesn't like it. He wants it to just be one-on-one.

Brett:

Yeah, which I love that about scb and Tony as well. They've designed the event to be what they want and like an event that they enjoy attending. So a couple hundred people, those are my favorite events too. I like the big ones as well. I like speaking on big stages. That's fun. But connections community that you make in a smaller event is super cool. Really good stuff. So I'm going to send Steve and Tony an invoice for our promoting of the Seller Summit here. So you're welcome guys. But man, really excited to dive into this topic. We're going to talk ai, we're going to talk algorithm. We're going to talk.

Brandon:

Sorry to interrupt you, Brad. This is really important. We did not address Steve properly. He is now a bestselling author,

Brett:

Bestselling author, Steve Chu, which I know want him amazing props with his mom, who all of us in the e-commerce space, and I get this all the time as an agency owner, our parents, our aunts and uncles grandparents, they have no idea what we do. And Steve always makes jokes about that. His parents are like, why don't you get a job, Steve? Why don't you just get a job? I don't know what you're doing, but he got the bestseller with Family First Entrepreneur and now his mom thinks he's cool. So that's definitely a win. So y man, I'm super excited about this. So let's talk about the fact that you are an eight figure seller. That is pretty elite status. So talk about that. How'd you get started and how did you go from where most people play to the eight figure

Brandon:

Mark? Yeah, I appreciate that. We started, it was my wife and I when we were dating, we decided to start a business and we figured out what F B A was from a buddy. To me, it just clicked that that was such a scalable business model because we could leverage the billions of dollars in infrastructure that Amazon has. I don't need my own warehouse, my own employees, my own packing materials, and I don't need to ship anything myself. So I could focus on some levers that really drive growth, like product development and getting the inventory in. So we started with wholesale and liquidation, and then in 2016 we went to Canton because my wife now my wife, we got married in 2017. She is originally from China, and I looked at her and we looked at each other. I'm like, why are we not doing private label? We have a huge advantage here. So from 2017 on, we just kept scaling, doubling and tripling almost year over year. Last year we did 22 million, and this year we should do about 32 million.

Brett:

It's insane, man. So cool. Kudos to you guys. I love the way you frame that. We're leveraging the billions of dollars and infrastructure and ads and everything that Amazon's doing, and you're focusing on a few key levers, growth levers that you can pull to create really outsized returns. And so love this. Several things we're going to dig in there. We're going to talk about the algorithm. We're going to talk about under leveraged and underoptimized listings. We're going to talk about AI and some other cool tools you guys have developed, but let's talk about the algorithm first. So maybe give us an overview, your overview of the Amazon algorithm, and then let's maybe dig into some things that people are not aware

Brandon:

Of. Well, this part usually puts people to sleep, so we got to warn, pause, get some coffee, do some dumping jacks,

Brett:

Slap yourself. This will make you a lot of money. This may not be exciting, but it'll make you lots of cash. And cash is exciting.

Brandon:

Okay, good. I'm a data guy, so this stuff really, I get geeked out by it and I get excited by it, but a lot of people are just glosses over them. So data

Brett:

Tells a story though, and I know that's part of what data uncovers what's happening and what you need to do. So there's a story there. You just got to figure out what that story

Brandon:

Is. Yeah, exactly. And so Amazon needs to figure out the order that products show up on different search terms. And so a lot of people, the first, the primary is that Amazon is a search engine. It's not just a marketplace. So you really have to understand how that works. Then you have to understand that they're going to

Brett:

Reward. It's still product discovery, and sorry to interrupt you, but I think this will just be a good setup is still the vast majority of product discovery on Amazon. It's still done through search. There's the also bot, there's other places you can discover products, but it's still largely driven by

Brandon:

Search. Yeah, a hundred percent. What I'd say is there's two elements to the way that Amazon's going to decide where to rank you on which keywords you should show up. And the first part is a bucket we'll call performance. And then the other bucket we're going to call relevancy. And so the relevancy piece is really just a multiplier. So if you think about it this way, your bucket of performance is going to be your click-through rate. So how many times does your listing show up on a search result and how often do people search it? And then it's going to be your conversion rate. So once someone clicks on it, how often are they purchasing it? And then it's going to be your overall revenue that you're driving, which is a big part of it because Amazon wants to get that sweet commission from you. Amazon

Brett:

Takes a cut of that, so they want to maximize it. Yeah.

Brandon:

The other part of it is going to be that multiplier of relevancy. And the way that that works is that if you are selling a dog bowl and someone searches for dog food, they don't want your dog ball to show up, what they'll do is on the relevancy piece, they're going to make that number less than one. It might be 0.4 or 0.2 basically meaning that it's going to reduce that overall rank number that you have. If you consider it, I just got a quantifiable number of what my product score is from ranking potential and I multiply it by a number that's less than one, then that number goes down. So for every single keyword, every single keyword on Amazon, you're going to have a rank score, and then that rank score is made up of those two things. It's going to be that performance times that relevancy.

And so once we started to figure out how that works, then we realized that it can't be calculated daily. It has to be calculated over time. So then what happens is Amazon's going to run that calculation and then it's going to run it again for a three day average and then like a seven day average, a 15 day average, a 30 day average, a six month average, and so on. But they can't value all those things the same because they want products to be able a trend in the right direction to improve and things like that. So what they do is they value the newer data more. So your one day average, your three day average, your seven day average is going to be weighted more than your six month average for example. And so it started to really make sense that when you're sitting there with a product that runs out of stock for 30 days, it's really tough sometimes to recover because what happens is now you've got a bunch of zeros averaged into your performance, and so you've got your 1, 3, 7, 15, 30 day average all zeros, and all you've got is those longer term averages that are weighted less.

And so now you need to start accumulating positive history again, and it could take you another 30 days or more to really start to recover, which is expensive. You've got to spend money on marketing. You're not showing up organically. Most of your sales are P P C, and then that could be a vicious cycle because P P C converts less than organic usually, so your overall average is worse than it was before, and it becomes almost impossible sometimes with that spiral to recover. So we understand how the algorithm works, but more importantly we also understand how relevancy works. And so relevancy to make that number one, two things have to happen. You're going to get two different ways that relevancy is calculated. The first is that where the keyword is in your listing matters. So title is worth more than your bullets. So if you're in the title, you might get a multiplier of one, and if you're in the bullets, you might get a multiplier of 0.8 or 0.9.

It's going to be less. So someone that really wants to rank for a product, you'll notice. And then where it is in the title matters too, the beginning of the title is worth more than the middle of the title. So you'll notice that sometimes people will just write a title with a long tail keyword in the beginning and they're ranking in the top three for that keyword, but the really popular, also relevant high search volume keyword, they're number 20, right? And it's like why are they winning this long tail keyword when the better listings that outperform them, they sell more units are winning the other keywords, the higher search volume keywords, and the reality is it's because of the way they wrote the listing. They're getting more value there and more rank potential is what we call it. The last part of that is going to be the match type.

So if you write your keyword that someone searches in exact form, meaning that if I want to sell a diaper bag and I say, okay, I want a diaper bag backpack. If I write diaper bag backpack at the beginning of my title and someone searches for diaper bag backpack, now I'm going to get what we call ranking credit. So this ranking credit is going to be a hundred percent of the credit toward into the bank of that keyword, but if I write backpack diaper bag, I'm not going to get a hundred percent of the credit. What I'm going to get is maybe 30% of the credit because that's what we call a broad match. It's the same keywords but out of order. So understanding that the order you write the words in the match type and where you write it matters, and then understanding how the algorithm works, we've been able to basically build a listing writer that will help you maximize the rank of your product to maximize the rank potential of your product. Whether you perform or not is going to be based on how you design the product and the competition.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that so much. So thinking about both performance and relevancy, and there's some similarities. I've been in the Amazon game for a long time since 2016, but go way back on the Google side, and there are some similarities here. Both Google and Amazon wanted delight users. They want to give people exactly what they're looking for. Where it varies a little though is Amazon's primary goal is to sell customers stuff. They want people to buy stuff. So that's where you as a seller and Amazon are totally aligned. However, Amazon doesn't care if it's your product or somebody else's product. They doesn't want customers to be happy. And so I think understanding it in those two veins is super, super important. Where do reviews, where do they play into that scenario? Where would you put those and how would you weight number and quality of reviews?

Brandon:

So to me, reviews are weighted a little bit in the algorithm, but not a lot. But what they matter is going to be on the performance. So if your reviews are worse than your competition, you're naturally just going to get less clicks. So your click-through rate's going to be lower and you're going to get less conversions. Your conversion rate's going to be lower, so it's going to impact you on that performance side more than it's going to impact you directly on where you rank.

Brett:

Totally makes sense, and this is one of those virtuous cycles. You get more clicks and you get more conversions, then Amazon's happy, they're going to show it more and the higher you rank and usually the higher your click-through rate is and things like that. So really, really cool. What are some of the things that you think people miss in relationship to the algorithm? Any kind of non-obvious things that are hidden in there that most sellers overlook or most sellers don't pay attention to?

Brandon:

So I think overall people try to write their listing and design their listing to maximize rank, right? This is the goal, but the two mistakes I see people make are going to be that they don't do enough product design and testing of content at all. Even if they think they do a lot, they might make one or two main images, maybe three main images that they test, but they don't spend enough time and effort on the content side. The other side is going to be on the product design altogether. What type of testing did you do with audiences to determine that you have the right to rank higher than the current incumbents, the best sellers that are already out there? Do you know for a fact or do you have a high level of confidence that you're going to outperform the best sellers? Once you come in, now you are competing against someone with lots of reviews, usually a good rating.

You're coming in and you're trying to be the new guy on the block. If you only have a similar performance when you test, let's say you pull a hundred people and it's like 50 50, when they see what the other one has done and the history they have, it's going to be very difficult to beat them if not impossible. So you've got to have a significantly better offer. You've got to have a significantly better design to be able to come into a market and beat them if it's just head-to-head. So the last piece that I think people don't spend enough time on is the keyword research. It's really understanding how many hundreds of keywords there are that drive sales for that product, not just the top five keywords. And so most people don't realize that there are many different ways people will search for a product because we are just a product of our upbringing and what we call something based on our local vernacular. So I'll give you an example, a toiletry bag for example. What do you call a toiletry bag? Do you have any other words or ways that you call it?

Brett:

It's not something I talk about a whole lot, but would a toiletries bag also be like a makeup bag?

Brandon:

So a makeup bag could be, but that would be more geared towards women. So have you ever heard the term DOP kit? No,

Brett:

Never heard of that. There

Brandon:

You go. That's the second or third most popular way to search for a toiletry bag.

Brett:

Wait, spell that for me.

Brandon:

D O P P kit.

Brett:

What parts of the country or world is do

Brandon:

Kit? Midwest, I guess

Brett:

Midwest. Interesting. I'm a Midwest guy. We call it toiletries. We must be like upper crust Midwest or something because I've never heard,

Brandon:

But I'm telling you, tens of thousands of searches a month for DOPP kit. And then you've also got bathroom bag, you've got travel bag, you've got men's travel bag, you've got men's bathroom bag, you've got all these different keywords that, and then you've got all the different material types. You've got leather, you've got any type of bag you've got there, canvas. So this is just an example for toiletry bag alone, you might have a hundred relevant keywords with a significant search volume, and you're really only when you write your listing based on what the research you've done and what you think, you're only going to hit 50, 60% of those keywords, 50 to 60% of that potential search volume is a better way to look at it. So what we've gotten really good at is saying, okay, how do we reverse engineer and find all those different ways people are searching?

How do we find all those keywords? And so there's a tool like Helium 10 that allows you to maybe do a reverse asin. So you can put a product in there and then it'll tell you all the keywords it's ranked for or indexed for and where they're ranked. Now that's helpful, but a product might be indexed for thousands of keywords, but index doesn't mean it's relevant. It just means that you could be on page 15 and doesn't matter. So how do you really start to take that data and make it useful? What we've done is we've started to look at the top 20 or 30 sellers, and then once you combine all of the keywords that all of them are ranked well for, and you eliminate the noise and you add a relevancy formula that helps sort all that out, now you've got just the keywords that drive sales for that product and a score on 'em like is it a loosely relevant or is it highly relevant and is it something I should be building into my title or is it something I should be targeting in the backend?

And so we really start to understand the whole picture, and it all stemmed from a mistake we made. We had a product that we launched and it was a toy that lights up, it's like a Lego type toy with lights inside of it, and it was really cool. I looked at it and it was a plane, it was a train. You could make it into any five or 10 or 15 shapes, and there was a competitor on the market. So I said, okay, well, they're doing well and they're in stores and we could sell that. It's cool. Every kid would want to have this. And we didn't sell more than five units. The problem was that we could not find keywords to rank it for because no one is going to search for Lego and then buy my random step. It's going to be almost impossible to maintain a rank on any Lego keyword because all the Legos are going to

Brett:

Be, you can't mention Lego. Lego is a brand term, so you can't really mention that in your listing.

Brandon:

Yeah, it's very difficult to maintain rank or get ranked or even on P P C. No one's going to click on it because if they search for Lego, they want Lego. So that's the question that I had to start answering, which was before I developed and launched and did anything with a product or even researched or validated or whatever, I had to answer the question, how are the current sellers getting their sales? What are the keywords driving sales? And can I duplicate or beat them? And if I answer those questions, then I'm going to have a very high batting average when it comes to finding, launching and developing products.

Brett:

I really like this and I like the way we're framing it here. I like the way you're framing it. It is kind of two parts. It's one part merchandising. How do you make your product jump off the shelf, so to speak, and make people want it, make sure that it looks unique and it answers that question of, okay, this is the product, this is what I'm hoping for and what I'm wanting, it's that zero moment of truth or first moment of truth that they used to be used on physical retail shelves and how do you make that thing jump off? And a lot of that's going to come back to user testing. So we're going to get into that in a minute. The other part is really SS e o, and that's actually the very first thing I did online was ss e os started doing s e O for Google back in 2004. A lot of similarities between SS e o on Google and on Amazon with a few key differences, but a lot of times we're like, Hey, I just want to rank for toiletries bag. Well, okay, good luck if you're just starting, that's going to take a little bit of time. But there's a lot of money in the long tail and the really long, more random, more specific keywords, there's a lot of money to be made there and things

Brandon:

That, well, not only that, right? I think that a lot of people underestimate those long tail keywords for helping to pad your metrics. We had talked about performance being a major part of your ranking, those long tail keywords that if they're super specific and relevant, you're going to convert much higher on those. So those being blended in, even if it is only a sale a day or a sale every other day, but you've got 50 of those keywords, that extra high conversion rate being averaged in is going to help you rank for those bigger

Brett:

Keywords, those click-through rates and conversion. It's a really high on long tail, which has a compounding effect as well. So that's great. Awesome. So let's talk more about that. So the keyword side of things, the relevancy side of things. So how are you uncovering that? So you're taking top sellers of a given product, cross-referencing what they're ranking for, applying a score, determining what of those keywords is actually moving the needle versus what's not, and then anything else you'd want to add to that, and then where do we go from

Brandon:

There? So the whole thing is once we understand how are they getting their sales and what can we duplicate? And what you'll find is a lot of the best sellers have what we call outlier keywords. These are going to be those generic keywords that you realistically can't duplicate. If you launch a brand new toy, you're not going to come in and rank for toys for three-year-old girls, right? It's just not going to happen. You can try, but you'll just fail miserably. You don't have that foundation of all those other relevant keywords. So what we're finding is that once we see and we can paint the accurate picture of the market and we can understand, okay, these best sellers are selling 6,000 units a month. The next guy's selling 4,000, the next guy's selling 2000, and then all these other guys in the middle are selling 1500 units and they're ranked for 60 to 70% of the search volume relevant search volume.

We see that that's kind of more in line of what we can expect to sell because we're not going to duplicate the success of these best sellers necessarily because they're ranked for almost all of the relevant search volume and they're ranked in the top of those search terms versus being in the 10 to 15 range, which is where you'll be in the first week to two weeks. So we really start to understand what can we realistically expect to sell? How many should we order? What are the keywords that these better sellers are ranked for that we can't duplicate and what can we duplicate? And so it's about painting the picture to make sure it makes sense and understanding if the market's too competitive or saturated or if there's not enough keywords. So really we get to answer all of those questions from good keyword research,

Brett:

Any anecdotes, any stories of, Hey, we uncovered these keywords for this product or for this category, we put them in the listing, we start focusing on it, and this is the impact that made.

Brandon:

Oh, hundreds and hundreds of those. So not just from me but from students or from users. I get sent screenshots on a regular basis where once you lay this out, for example in DataDive, you get what's called the master keyword list. And so it's what it sounds like. You got all the competitors laid across the top, you got all the keywords on the side, and then you got all the ranks. And so if you put your product on there and you're like, oh, wow, I just have this giant hole where I'm just ranked 35 or 55 for these keywords that all share the same root word, the same exact word in them, and you're like, well, what am I doing wrong? And then you go look at your listing, you realize you didn't write it in there, you don't have it in your listing. Amazon's not sure it's relevant.

So all you have to do is unlock that relevancy piece by writing it into your listing. So you might have multiple holes. What we recommend with a revamp is to go in and say, okay, pick one root word that you realize you have a weakness on. Put it in your title. Put the best keyword with that root word in your title and see what happens Within 6, 8, 10 hours, you're going to see a movement in your ranks. You're going to see a movement going up because you've established relevancy and now all of a sudden you had credit in the bank and now you unlocked it. That's the way it works now. Or what you took out of the title was more important, and now you see a downside on some, so you have to change the listing back right away, the title back right away. So we never recommend changing the whole title right away.

If you've got an existing listing, just maybe one keyword at a time, one root word at a time. But I'll give you an example. I was speaking at an event at Kevin King's billion dollar seller summit in Austin, and I was using a case study. I was randomly looking at card shuffler one time, and the bestselling card Shuffler was selling a lot more card than everybody else, but there were a few keywords that he was ranked maybe 35, 55, just not ranked well at all. And he was top three for every other keyword. And I was like, okay, well that's a clear sign to me that he's got credit in the bank for those keywords, but Amazon thinks it's not relevant. All of those keywords, the route that they shared was two deck, two deck shuffler, right? Or one was two to four deck. So the thing is he was selling a six deck shuffler that could also shuffle two decks.

I gave the example. I said, look, without a doubt, if this guy goes in, he's got credit in the bank, if he changes and just adds two deck into his title, he's immediately going to rank better for those keywords. And I got off the stage, I walk into the hallway, a guy chases me into the hallway from the audience and says, that's my listing. I said, do me a favor and please change your title tonight. Literally, here's the suggested title that I gave in the talk. He comes back to me the next night, we're out of social after a whole day of audience, he had his team change it. He comes back to me and he shows me a screenshot of 20 different keywords that have gone from either not indexed to top 10 immediately and says, credit

Brett:

In the bank, let's utilize that. Yeah,

Brandon:

He said, we did the math on this. We're going to make over a hundred thousand dollars more profit this year just from that one change.

Brett:

But that's something you wouldn't have thought of because it's a six deck. It's not a two shuffler, but when you understand that, yes, but it'll also shuffle just two decks if you want to do that. And that's what people are looking for and that's how you become relevant and that's how you sell more units. And so that is awesome. So that's the SS e o side. I know we could talk all day about that. There's more resources on your site and your podcast where people can dig into that. So we'll talk about that later. But let's talk about the merchandising piece. And I know this is something you're very passionate about, that a lot of sellers are just trying to sell something without clear differentiation or without understanding what does the marketplace actually want. So what do you recommend when it comes to testing your product and testing some of your merchandising elements like pictures and design features and things like

Brandon:

That? So one of the, after I validate a product that I want to do it, I have to figure out how I'm going to win. So one of my favorite things to do is to work on the design side. And for the last eight months or so, since the beginning of the year, I've been playing with Mid Journey. So Mid Journey as an AI text, two image generator. And so you type what you want it to generate an image of and it pops it out. And so I've realized that the skill that you're going to need moving forward is going to be what they call prompt engineering. It's going to be how do you talk to this AI to have it give you back what you want? And so I've taken two trips to China this year because I've spent so much time doing custom products, and we have a travel brand, we have a toy brand, and so we are just designing a ton of characters and the usual unicorns and princesses and mermaids and dinosaurs and stuff.

So just spending a ton of time developing new characters. And so once I look at the incumbents or the best sellers, I take their product. Now, if I just need to design the character, I design the character, my team puts it on the product, but sometimes I can get the AI to give me the full product already done with the image I want. And so straight out of communicating with this ai with Mid Journey, I can take that image and I can take the main image of the top three sellers and I can go into a product like a software like pfu, and we can ask 50 people, which one would you want to buy? And if I'm getting more than 50% of the votes against the top three bestsellers that are already on the market, I know I've got a slam dunk. And then so

Brett:

I love that tool, by the way. It's an underrated tool. And I know we're talking ai, we're talking a lot about a lot of things, but pick Fu John and Pick, I think hes one of the founders or whatever, but such a simple affordable tool, but yeah, allows you to get feedback from real people on which image do you prefer, which product would you buy? Things like that, that really can save you so much time, so much money, and really just set you up

Brandon:

For success. And just on LinkedIn, I posted a slushy cup. I was in a talk showing my inner circle. I've kept my AI product development stuff kind of more tight because I think it's really going to disrupt the market. If you're not using AI for product development, you're in a bad spot in six months, 12 months, you might not have a business. This is truly how fast I think product development will go moving forward. You can develop products a hundred times faster, a hundred times cheaper, and they will be better. You're going to convert, you're going to have better designs. And so the old style of waiting for a designer to give you back five concepts and then choosing the best one that wasn't really that great anyway is over. And so straight out of mid journey, you're about 90% of the way there. You have your designer clean it up and then make a decent main image out of it, and then you compare it.

And so just in the class where I was showing the strategies around how to prompt the prompt engineering class, I asked for a suggestive product and someone said a slushy cup. And now I made a Spider-Man slushy cup because first of all, I'm not going to get the licensing to make a Spider-Man slushie cup from Disney. Maybe with this cup I could if I send it to them, to the right IP legal team or whoever's in charge of it over there. But it was just as an example, this cup is 10 times better than anything currently being sold on the market, any of the current bestsellers that are crushing. And what I can do,

Brett:

We can show up for those that are watching the video, and then we'll post a link and actually, hey, if you only listen to the show, which is totally fine, by the way, check out the YouTube video, check out the YouTube channel or check out. That's a really good point. The podcast site@omgcommerce.com on your podcast. See, I excited to see this slushy cup. Now I will confess I'm not 100% certain. I know what you mean by slushy cup.

Brandon:

So this is a new product that you free some stuff, then you add some juice and you squish it together. It's like silicone. You squish it together, and what ends up happening is you make it into a little slushy at home. It's like an at-home slushy type thing, but the designs are so generic, just absolutely a generic. So

Brett:

Now as a preview, what we're about to see, this was just AI generated. So you worked with AI through prompts and Mid Journey and that's how you designed this?

Brandon:

Yeah, all I did was say make me a Spider-Man slushie cup. But I did it in a certain way with certain features and prompted it in the right way, but it wasn't that difficult to get to this product.

Brett:

Dude, that's pretty sick. So we got it. For those that are just watching, it's like a closeup of the Spider-Man face mask or the mask. So the eyes are real big. It's got a pretty cool, I can't tell what's going on with the lid actually from my vantage point. But yeah,

Brandon:

There's no lid currently on this. The lid is going to be separate to put on to drink out of, but it shows the slushie spilling over the top.

Brett:

Dude, that's pretty sweet, man. If I was like a eight year old boy, I would totally rock that slushy cup. You're going

Brandon:

To buy that or your parents are going to buy it instead of a generic one. I could charge twice as much as the current bestsellers and they're going to be like, man, I got to get my kid the Spider-Man one. I got to do it. But I'm doing so many products, I've got hundreds of products right now. I'm going back through my catalog. And one of the things that you need to understand also is that I need to go disrupt myself. I'm going back to my current bestsellers and I'm saying that's not going to be good enough six months from now and I'm making 60, 80, a hundred sales a day better

Brett:

You disrupt yourself than somebody else. So you've got to be preemptively thinking this top seller won't be the top seller forever. So what's next?

Brandon:

What is next? And how do I beat myself? And so I have a list of new products we're developing. I have a list of existing products I need to add variations or new heroes and really just update designs on and just keep outwork the competition so that we can scale to that 50 million mark next year.

Brett:

Love it. That's awesome, man. Any other tips or insights or resources on how do we make sure we're really leveraging the design? I think you've mentioned to me something about you've got a new tool that mines reviews from competitors' products and gives you a summary of what's there.

Brandon:

So it's a product brief tool that this is all the work that we would do with developing a product anyway. We need to go in and see what are the features that we need to add into the product. So if I'm handing a product brief to a factory and I say, okay, needs to have these types of zippers, this many pockets, it needs to have this functionality. Let's say a diaper bag for example. It needs to have a cooler pocket in the front. It needs to come with a changing pad, it needs to have stroller straps, it needs to have a security pocket in the back. But the way that I would come to that conclusion is that I would have to spend dozens of hours going through the top 2030 sellers looking at all their reviews, looking at the features that they all have, finding out what people want, what they don't want, reading the questions and the answers.

Every single product you develop, you need to be doing that. But now AI can do that in a matter of minutes for you instead of dozens and dozens of insane hours. So the tool we just released in the DataDive is the AI product brief tool. You select the competitors, you hit a button and it comes back and it spits out all this information. It tells you these are all the features they all claim to have. You can check 'em off and say, okay, I want that one, I want that one, I want that one. These are all the things people say they don't like about it. These are all the things people say they like about it. Here's some suggested improvements that the AI thinks you should make into the product. And the AI gets involved in helping you develop the product

Brett:

Better. It's reading all the negatives in all the positives, and it's making inferences there and it's saying, okay, this is what we would do.

Brandon:

And then even based on what they figured out the product is, they come back and tell you the top eight avatars, the top eight buyer personas that would buy this product and why they buy it, which to me is magical because you're a marketer as well. So you know that you need to trigger someone's buying a part of their brain. Why are they buying this? What is the value to them? What is that trigger to get them to pull the

Brett:

Trigger? And it's one of those things where the more you understand about your customer, the more directly you can speak to them, the more directly you can design for them, the better you'll be able to zero in on the right keywords when you understand that avatar. And that's something that I think a lot of business owners, and I would say Amazon sellers are definitely in this category. You don't really know who your buyer is. You don't really understand them at a deep level. Now I'm curious, how is the AI by looking at that? How are they understanding who the avatars

Brandon:

Are? Look, I don't know how they do it, but it's pretty magical. So it's just inferring based on the product type and then it's knowledge based pulling from its G PTT category,

Brett:

Product type keywords. Look at all that.

Brandon:

Yeah, so it's inferring based on the questions, the answers, the reviews, the type of product, and it just kind of digs through the whole world wide web and says, okay, these are the top eight people that would buy this product pretty insane. And then after you've selected everything you want, you got those suggestions, you hit a button and it generates the brief that you can now hand to your factory and say, this is how you make a much better product than what's on the market.

Brett:

Dang. So going from idea to really doing all the research that you want to do, putting that together really. Now, and you mentioned this with Mid Journey as well, where you're getting a starting point now with AI and then you're refining it, you're getting a starting point here with AI and you're letting it do all the legwork, then you're refining it. We're not just letting AI do all the work, right? It's not ready for that yet. It may never be, but it is very much ready to do the initial grunt work. And then you're refining and polishing and getting ready and then taking action from

Brandon:

There. And all of that is after you've already validated the product from a keyword perspective. So you look at the competition, you understand that you can beat them from a S E O perspective. Now it's just a matter of making a better design.

Brett:

Brandon, this has been awesome. We could dig into each of these topics at link, but we are up against time. So let's do a couple of things. Let's talk about data Dive specifically. And as I mentioned Team O M G, we love DataDive. We use it on the daily in our agency, but how can someone learn more about DataDive and who did you design DataDive for?

Brandon:

I appreciate that. We designed it for ourselves really. So the reality is we were developing these same exact processes to validate products and choose products back in 2016. This is maybe even back as far as 20 16, 20 17 before Helium 10 even was out. We were piecing together keyword data from seller labs and from viral launch. And so we were having to do VLOOKUPs and try to match keyword search volumes, try to understand who was ranked for what and what keywords were driving sales. And this is all after we made those mistakes. And really I was like, before I pull the trigger on another product, I want to know how I'm going to sell it. That's it. That was like, and I need to know that. And that's where we started. So then once Helium 10 came out and Cerebro came out, we started pulling. They allowed you to start pulling 10 competitors at once.

We would pull that raw data and start manipulating the data. We did that for every single product that we've developed. And then I started teaching in 2018 with seller systems and we started teaching how to manipulate the data and how to create this master keyword list manually where this changes is. A few years ago, two and a half years ago now, my now C T O joins, he was formerly the c e O of the largest development firm out of Romania. And he's semi-retirement, starting a business in retirement and stumbles across me and says, I'll learn how to sell on Amazon. Now I can do it from anywhere and I don't want to work 90 hours a week anymore. But the first thing he says to me when he watches the first class, he dms me. He's like, why is this not a software? This needs to be a software. There's a lot of work that could just be automated. He's like, with your permission, I want to hack together like a Google sheet that has macros that can just do this automatically. And I am not looking to make money on it all. Let the community use it as well. I said, yeah, for sure. We have an abundance mentality. We're all about it for sure. It leaks out of my inner circle. Within two weeks we had 2000 people using it.

Brett:

We might be onto something. I

Brandon:

Said, okay, well we've got product market fit. I said, maybe we should put some money behind this. And so here I am. I'm nearly $3 million invested into this software now, and it does

Brett:

So many people, I don't think people fully understand because we tried to build just a small tool for our agency. Dude, it's so expensive. So yes, software and SaaS maybe may feel expensive to some people, but dude, it takes immense amount of capital to build it and then to maintain it. And yeah, so hats off to you guys for doing that.

Brandon:

No, I appreciate it. Yeah, luckily we're blessed. We do well with our brands. We do well with the coaching, and so we've just been pouring our extra money into the software to keep building it, bootstrapping it, but I'm also impatient, and so I don't do anything unless I'm going to do it big. So I said, I'm not going to have five programmers and take three years to do this. We ramped up to over 20 programmers and really have just been hammering out tools and staying on top of it. And so the fundamentals are, it gives you that master keyword list. It has a product scorecard to give you a quantifiable number as to what the potential risk of doing a product is. So it helps you look at things like R O I, how good the images are for the competitors, the SS e o of the competitors, just all the different elements you'd want to answer before you pull the trigger on a product.

And it gives you a quantifiable score whether you should move forward with that product. We have a listing writer that takes into account the algorithm and gives you a quantifiable score of your rank potential. So we think it's the best in the market. The new AI tool we just launched there yesterday as well is we tap the AI to write your bullets, but we do it in a way where we're telling the AI and we're telling you which keywords to make sure you still include. So anyone can just throw a listing or ask chat G B T to write their listing. But that's not going to rank for all the reasons we talked about earlier in the show, which is you need to know what keywords to put where and in what order. And so you need to know the data first, and then you need to have the AI write it in a way that also incorporates those keywords.

So we did it in that order. The AI tool now writes your bullets and does it to maximize rank. We also have some P P C tools. We have a really unique way of doing P P C as well. We group our P P C keywords based on root word. So we want to make sure that they share a common word or phrase because what we found is that keywords that share a common word or phrase will perform similarly. So if I'm talking about all the keywords that have gray diaper bag and there's a lot of long tail keywords that have gray diaper bag, I'll put five of those together, those all should still perform pretty similarly. So I'm not getting something performing good and something performing bad in the same ad group. And what that does is it helps boost the quality score of that campaign. It lowers your cost per click faster. It's just a much better way to optimize as well. So the software helps you do that. Then we've got a dashboard. We've got a keyword tracker that's in beta. We've got a dashboard and some P P C tools coming out as well. So a lot of development, a lot of things we're doing

Brett:

Totally worth checking out. So DataDive tools, get it, data dive tools, check that out. Also seller systems.com. If you're interested in coaching or learning, I would

Brandon:

Love to have your audience get a discount code with your code.

Brett:

Let's do it, man. Let's do a discount code. Why not?

Brandon:

So for anyone listening, if you use the code O M G, you will get $50 off per month on DataDive Sweet, and you will get a thousand dollars off if you join my mastermind. The inner circle, we've got over a thousand members in there, over 407 and eight figure sellers all helping each other. Weekly calls, five to 10 live classes a month, lots of live events in person. So

Brett:

That is a deal. $50 off a month for DataDive and then a thousand dollars off seller systems code O M G, write that down, utilize that.

Brandon, been a ton of fun, man, super informative. I'm all jazzed up as a result of this conversation. Thanks Brandon, and thank you for tuning in. And as always, we'd love to hear from you. What would you like to hear more of on this show? If you haven't done it already, leave us that review on iTunes. Also connect with me on the socials. I'm getting pretty active on LinkedIn, almost daily posting on LinkedIn. Brandon's a good fall on LinkedIn too, so check out Brandon there as well. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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Post-purchase surveys can teach you a lot about your customers, and no one knows that better than my most recent guest, Trevor Crump. 

Trevors is the co-founder of Bestie, which is one of the fastest-growing post-purchase apps on Shopify. 

We talked about the key questions you should ask your customers and how you can turn their answers into extra cash! 

Make sure you give this episode a listen to learn key things like...

• The 3 questions that need to be on your post-purchase survey. 
• Where your customers are coming from (because we all know how hard attribution can be). 
• What Trevor has learned from running one of the most popular post-purchase survey apps on Shopify. 
• Plus, some of the most surprising things surveys can reveal. 

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Transcript:

Trevor:

So one of the things we talk a lot about is you've got this, there's a lot of trends out there that merchants follow. Oh, I'm seeing a lot of people do use U G C right now, so I'm going to create U G C. I see a lot of people creating listicle ads such as for the five reasons why I bought Tushy or whatever. And so I think that there's this two-tone approach that you need to go about. The brand should go about things. One is I think that following trends can be great. Try to be early in some of those trends because you'll see that U G C is still super important, but it is not doing what it used to do and people are starting to see through a lot of it. So you got to go a little bit deeper.

Brett:

It's time for this spicy curry hot. Take the segment of the show when I get just a little bit spicy. Let me quote Mark Twain for you. He said, it's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble. It's the things we know for certain that just ain't. So. Now I believe what we don't know about our customers is hurting us, but I also believe there's some deeply held beliefs, myths we have about our customers that just aren't true. As an example, I think a lot of people believe they know the reason their customers buy from them, but often they're off base. So one of the things we talk about in this show is a brand who believed the two main reasons people bought from them were one, cost savings, and two, the fact that their product was environmentally friendly. It turned out as they asked their customers, less than 10% of people believe those two reasons were important in purchasing.

And so can you imagine what if you were crafting all of your sales pitches in a way that only landed with one out of 10 in your audience, or you could shift it? And when you really know why people buy now, you can craft your message so that it strikes a chord with nine out of 10 of your ideal prospects. So what myths do you have that need to be busted? Hopefully we'll answer that on this show. Hot Take over. Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, c e o of o m g Commerce. And today we're talking about do you really know your customer? Do you know them as well as you think? Do you, I mean, do you really, really know them? Because if you knew your customers better, I bet you do at least a few things differently. And so today my guest is Trevor Crump. He is one of the co-founders of Bestie Bestie app, and so excited about this topic. I'm very passionate about it. I love the tool that Trevor and team have designed. Trevor is a fellow podcast host, so when you get two podcast guys together, it's going to be a little bit nutty. It's going to probably go off the rails, it's going to be valuable, but it may go off the rails. So with that, Trevor, how's it going, man? Welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time.

Trevor:

Yeah, man, I'm super excited to be here. Really, really appreciate it. Yeah, I actually love interviewing other podcast hosts because dude, so

Brett:

Fun.

Trevor:

It's a blast sometimes when you're interviewing somebody you never know, are they going to be short-winded? Are they going to be long-winded? Am I going to have to be cutting this person off? Am I going to have to be stretching for questions? And so sometimes the episode doesn't go where you think it should go, but it always turns out super entertaining and super valuable. And so I am a big fan of it, man.

Brett:

Yeah, me too. Because yeah, and really, I don't know which is worse, you have a guest who really doesn't say much. That's difficult, but you can also have someone that just doesn't know when to stop, and then you've got to interrupt because it needs to be a dialogue. If it's not a dialogue, it's not an interesting radio. And so yeah, I like interviewing podcast hosts as well, because what I'm always trying to do just for fun, when someone asks me a question, I'm a guest on another podcast, I'm trying to think how do I package this answer in a way that's authentic, meaningful, fun, but also where I don't talk for seven straight minutes because the host wants to talk to right? And the listener needs that. So that's awesome, man. So first of all, what is your pod and why did you start down the path of podcasting and yeah, tell us a little bit about that. Yeah,

Trevor:

So our podcast is called the Unstoppable Marketer. It's specifically meant to interview marketers and entrepreneurs in the D two C space. So we interview founders, we interview VPs of marketing, CMOs, et cetera. And it's just really to figure out where were you before, where are you now, where are you going and what are you doing to get there and what are some of those big mistakes? And so yeah, I've got a following on social media on Instagram and TikTok that's a decent size, and so was doing a really good job at the short form content side of things. At the time, our main business was actually a marketing agency. So rather than you're very specific on the YouTube side of things, Google side of things, we were very specific in TikTok and Meta. That was our big time breaded butter, little Google too as well, just as ancillary. But TikTok and Meta was where

Brett:

Supports it well, provides a good underpinning for TikTok and other socials. Google kind of closes the deal.

Trevor:

Yeah, absolutely. And so I was getting so much traction, so much interaction on my short form content that I needed to complete. We wanted to complete that funnel. And so we said, let's create a podcast for the people who I've just learned that anybody can be a short form content. It's pretty easy, especially with AI nowadays, if you're good at speaking, you can literally have AI write everything out for you. And as long as you can present it, you can look like you're super knowledgeable when you may not be. And so we said, let's create a podcast, and me and my business partner, we love to just talk and we love to meet other people. And so we created the podcast and it's been awesome ever since. Man, it's been really successful. It's got us a lot of good contacts and also a lot of business.

Brett:

That's one of my favorite parts about the podcast is just the people you meet. You get to hang out for an hour with smart people like you, grilling you with questions and learning, and you get to share that with people. And you're right, you can fake a two minute, one minute TikTok video. It's pretty hard to fake a 45 minute interview. And so the truth comes out when you go long form, which is super fun. So let's dive into a few things. First of all. So to kind of have a preview for the audience, we're going to talk about how do we get to know our customers better? How do we craft surveys, what do we ask? When do we ask it? How do we then use that to improve all the metrics we love like lowering CAC and raising L T V and all kinds of good stuff. So I can't wait to get into that. Also, going to talk about some surprising lessons like, hey, you thought this about your customer, but then actually the opposite was true. So we're going to get into that in a minute. But you ran an agency and then you pivoted to bestie app. Talk to us about that. Why'd you make the pivot? When did that happen? Why did that happen?

Trevor:

Yeah, super good question, man. Actually, before I started the agency, I was formerly A C M O for a big eight figure brand out here in Salt Lake City called Fond Design, which is a women's diaper bag and accessory company. And at the time, this was back in 2018, attribution tools were really, really expensive. I mean, they still are, right? But they were really expensive back then, and I could not convince my C M O or not my cmo, my C F O to get us, give me the budget for an attribution tool. And so we just were doing a little research, we were trying to figure some things out at the time, back in 2018, it was over attributing everything to us. So now it's under attributing. Back then it was over attributing meaning like Klaviyo, if my Shopify said I made a million bucks that month, Klaviyo's telling me that I made 500,000. Facebook's telling me I made 700,000. Google's telling me I made 300,000, but I'm only making a million, right? Yeah.

Brett:

So according to all the tools, the aggregate of 2 million, but you only made a million. And so yeah, exactly one over index thing over attributing. Now post I was 14 really under attributing,

Trevor:

Right? A hundred percent. So it's like, Hey, we got to figure this out. So we were just doing, me and my e-comm director, we were doing some just brainstorming and we saw that our email open rate for our thank you email was like 80% right? And normally our open rates back then were like 20, 30%. And I'm like, holy cow, 80% open rate, 50% click-through rate. This is massively valuable real estate. It's that confirmation, Hey, your order was placed. Here's your shipping information. So we just got a freemium account on SurveyMonkey and we asked three questions. We said, Hey, how did you hear about us? What brought you to the website today? And how long have you known about us? And let's see if that just information gives us some solid information. And we started learning things about our customer that we had no idea, and it became the most pivotal piece of the puzzle when it came to us understanding how our customers heard about us.

And so we started running surveys like crazy through that. So the moment we got enough attribution surveys, then we started asking questions about why they were buying the product. Then we started asking questions about who they were, what podcasts they listened to, what influencers they followed. And it just became the catalyst to so much that we did. And so fast forward, it helped us scale from this seven figures to an eight figure business. Fast forward back to this agency and we just kept finding that a lot of D two C brands, all these companies that we're working with these merchants, none of 'em were talking to their customers. The way they were talking to their customer was usually through dms or an Instagram poll. That was the majority of their conversations. And so we thought, Hey, listen, remember we did this back then let's find a way to automate this and build this process out and really help brands get a better qualitative understanding of who their customer is and what makes them tick. And so we started to develop bestie in 2022, just going through developers overseas and contractors and Fiverr and going down all these routes. And eventually we came with product market fit in first of this year, got approved on the Shopify app store and really just started grinding and getting more and more customers and the rest has been history.

Brett:

Love it, man. And I know you guys are really growing rapidly and I love this process. So let's talk about those three questions for just a minute. And you guys went low tech, right? Or lower tech, right? You used that thank you email. You used SurveyMonkey, right? We got inexpensive tools available if you need 'em. And I know Bessie is inexpensive as well, but yeah, you hear about us, what brought you here today and how long have you known about us? And I think once you get these answers, then it just blows your mind. You're like, wait a minute, I didn't know that. And now that I know that, now I want to know more. And once I know more, then we can start changing things. And so what were some of the surprising things you guys learned? And you said that was called Fawn Design was the name of the brand. What were some of the surprising things you learned in that first round of questions?

Trevor:

Two really big things that we learned. One thing that we learned was that 40% of our audience, the first time they heard about us was through word of mouth. So that was the biggest channel. And as you know, there's no attribution tool that can account for word of mouth. There will be. And so we always had this fear of, okay, hey, we're at our highest CAC possible right now, so any more money we spend, we start to go over that CAC and things become inefficient. And so that was a huge learning is we were stuck in this spend of 50,000, $60,000 a month. And when we saw that, it's like, okay, hey, 40% of our customers first heard about us through other people buying the bags and then walking around with them. So essentially the way we sell more bags is by selling more bags. Exactly. Does that make sense?

Brett:

Each bag you sell is now a

Trevor:

Walking advertisement

Brett:

Billboard. And now that new customer is not just the value of the new customer, but now they're going to be attracting other customers.

Trevor:

Well, not only that, but moms, if anything about the mom world, anything that helps moms be better moms or look like better moms from a style aesthetic perspective, they are going to shout it from the rooftops all. Absolutely. So not only did we say let's try doubling spend and just see what happens. Can I get approval from our C ffo and can we go from 50 grand a month to a hundred thousand dollars a month and just see what happens

Brett:

There? The CFO didn't sleep good that night. Trevor, the CFO was like, man, I don't want to release this money. But

Trevor:

After 40 days, all of a sudden, like CAC went up a little bit, but it was like, Hey, just keep with it, keep with it, keep with it. The other thing that we learned was that our buying cycle was under 30 days. So that was the other thing for us. So it was like, okay, cool. We theoretically should see the fruits of the labors of the word of mouth by doubling our spend within a month here. So it's not like we're going to have to go six months and hope this is going to work and have a really, really bad CAC for six months, but then it's going to start to get better. So that was huge for us.

Brett:

Love that. So you found this key insight word of mouth is driving 40% of business, so let's just sell more bags to sell even more bags, but then knowing 30 day selling cycle, we don't have to commit to a test for that long, so let's commit to a test for 30, 40 days now we should be able to get some really meaningful data and see if our theory was correct.

Trevor:

Totally. And then the other thing that we did is we built, I know there's a lot of arguments and debates around loyalty programs if they work or not. And we took our stab at building a loyalty program because we thought that was a no brainer. If people are organically sharing about us, 40% of people are organically sharing about us. Let's build a loyalty program. And the original loyalty program we built didn't work very well for us. We did just your standard loyalty program that you're going to find on any other website, and it just ended up being more work to the customer to go through those hoops and they were going to share about it anyway. But what we actually ended up doing that started moving the needle big time is we created incentives to say, Hey, not only if you shout to us, shout out to us on social media, we are going to refund five orders a week and we're going to give anybody who shouts to us, they're going to enter in a giveaway and get a hundred dollars off their next order. And so we just started doing a bunch of things like that that started getting us more content and more opportunities to work with new influencers. And yeah, it was awesome, dude. So that was one massive learning. I can go into a ton that we learned there, but yeah, it was really cool.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so good. And I think that's something to keep in mind is with loyalty programs, especially if you've got a product like this where tight community, it's beneficial to the shopper to share your product, makes them feel good, look good, all those things people are going to share anyway. So if you create a loyalty program, it's overly complex, overly hard to understand and feels like a lot of work, you're not gaining any ground. So people are going to share anyway. But I love this where just make it fun, make it random, make it like, Hey, you're going to share anyway. We will do these little fun things and celebrate it. So shout at us on social media and we'll make it worth your while. Super, super smart. Let's dive in then, and we'll probably drill into some other lessons there from Fawn because I am interested in that, but I want to shift fast forward a little bit. So now with Bestie, I know you're working with lots of different brands. What are some of the scenarios where brand thought one thing was true about their customer? Did a survey found actually that the opposite or something totally different was true? Let's talk about some examples.

Trevor:

Maybe the first one that comes to my mind and I say these people, they've given us permission to talk about this story. So there's a brand out there called pajamas. And Pajamas is like a built-in potty training aid for parents who are trying to teach their kids how to not wet the bed at night. So essentially it's like reusable diapers that you can rewash, kids can pee in it and it doesn't soak their bed. And when they originally came to their agency, they said, Hey, people buy us for two reasons. They buy us because it saves them money and diapers cost a lot of money, number one, so it's going to save you money. And number two reason is it's going to save the environment because I think every pull-up takes 15 years to decompose. And so there was this big eco push that they were trying to go.

So sure enough, the agency that they're working with creates all the content around those two solutions. And because this is such a problem solution product, people see it and problem solution products tend to sell themselves usually. Now when you really hit on the actual reason somebody buys it, they sell 10 x more. So they were running those ads for quite some time. And then we got bestie set up and we said, Hey, I know that these are the two reasons why you say people are buying from you, but what if we just created a survey and we asked one question and the question just said, what motivated you to buy pajamas today? And we listed those two right cost savings, and then we added three or four more responses with one open-ended response, like an other open-ended response. And after a week or so, we got enough statistical significance data that said, okay, let's see if eco-friendly and diaper savings costs are the number one and number two drivers and eco-friendly accounted for about 7% of the reason why people purchased and cost savings accounted for about 9%. Wow.

Brett:

So two of the lower priority reasons that people are purchasing that. Really interesting. So what were the winners?

Trevor:

The number one, which was 53% over half the time somebody's buying was they wanted to shorten the window it took for them to potty train their child. So they didn't want to have a six, eight-year-old wedding, the bed they wanted to get them in, they wanted to fix that, nip that in the bud quicker. So that was the number one reason by 53% shortening up that window. And then the second reason, the second reason, which was like 24%, was to improve child's confidence. No five-year-old feels confident going to bed with a pull-up on, but if they're wearing pajamas, they don't feel like they're a little baby anymore.

Brett:

I love that so much. And as a parent, and I don't know if you know this, Trevor, a lot of the listeners do. My wife and I have eight kids, count 'em, eight

Trevor:

Kids. Oh my gosh,

Brett:

Dude, oldest is out of the house, second oldest is in college. Yeah, lots of kids. So dude, the number of, we calculated one time the number of pul numbers, number of diapers, and now I've forgotten, but I think it's like four to 8,000 to 6,000 per kid or something like that is the average. So you do the math there, it's an insane amount of pull-ups and diapers. They are expensive. What's really interesting, I think this is a difference between this is the business owner mindset. This is what we think is most important from a business standpoint. But then when you put your parent hat on and your parent lens on your parent glasses so to speak, this is what's important. But when you look at that, yes, we want to save money and yes, we want to save the environment, but what's interesting about the environmental issue is in surveys, we see that all the time show up way lower than the business owner thinks.

And that's not to say that you shouldn't be environmentally friendly, people do care about that, but it's just not at the top of the list when it comes to where am I going to spend my money? We think that it's, but in this case, yeah, it's my kid's confidence and my kid's psychology. I'm motivated for that. I'm motivated to spend money for that. And let's face it, man, I don't want to change wet sheets for the next five months next year. No way. If we can get this trained faster, let's do it right now. So love that. Kudos to you guys for asking the questions and really kudos to the business owner for being open to it because I think some business owners approach it, they're like, no, no, no, no, I know my customer. I know this is the reason. These are the reasons. But that ain't necessarily true. So love that. Any other kind of aha moments surprising? I thought this thing, it was actually the opposite.

Trevor:

Yeah, I think maybe another, okay, yeah, another one was there was a women's clothing boutique, and this one's a little bit more on the attribution side, on the women's clothing boutique. They're a big massive clothing boutique here in the Salt Lake area, and they kind of felt like they were hitting a wall when it came to their ad spend, right? Hey, nobody can really help us here. We just need to find either a good in-house marketer, a good agency who we can just trust that are going to spend our money effectively. This is what our CAC is, this is what our L T V is and this is what it's going to be. We're going to be an x million dollar a month business and that's it. And they kind of felt like that was their fate for a little bit. And so we started to run attribution surveys and just back to those same three questions, how did you hear about us?

Where did you come from and how long have you known about us? And this founder, the way they sell a lot of their clothing is she is wildly, wildly interactive in her stories. So she'll jump in her stories and she will try clothes on and she'll say, Hey, I am this tall. I weigh this much, this is how my body fits in it. And people just love it because they're like, oh, cool, I can see that. I can visualize it. I'm the same size, or I'm a little bit bigger, I'm a little bit smaller, so I'm going to need a small versus a medium or what have you. And so she just tries on every new piece of clothing that comes in. So if you go look at their stories, they've got a hundred stories, not a hundred stories, 25 stories a day, and they were convinced like, Hey, we're the ones who are selling Google Analytics attribution.

It's all telling us people are coming from our Instagram referrals. That's where everything's coming from. And so we said, let's just run an attribution test. Let's see what's going on here. Come to find out that 75% of the people who said they first heard that brand, that women's clothing boutique was through Facebook ads, Facebook and Instagram ads. So it had nothing to do with her stories, nothing, right? It was the ad first and then how they got to the website today. The top two reasons was from her stories or they just remembered her. They had remembered it. So we came back and said, Hey, the insights here, the actionable insights here for you are, I know once again, this goes back to what was happening over at font design, this word of mouth thing. It's like, Hey, I know that it looks like the people who are buying are people who are coming just from you guys organically, but they first started following you and heard about you through your ads.

Why don't you try to double your ad spend and see what happens? They doubled their ad spend for three months and their business has five XD since then, and they're scaling and growing and opening up new locations all because it was just like, oh my goodness, we've got the right L t V for this and let's just test it out and see what happens. And sure enough, they're absolutely crushing it, their m e r, so their marketing efficient rate, efficiency rate didn't increase, didn't decrease. It stayed the same, but they five x their monthly revenue because of just putting the money where they need to

Brett:

Put it. It's amazing. It's amazing. And it kind of goes back to that first touch, last touch type of argument. And yes, we've got tools that can calculate that, and I like attribution tools. There's several. I like triple oil, north Beam, there's several that are good, but they're not perfect. And so getting these questions answered is huge where we thought that it was all our stories and organic, but really it was ads. We had something kind of similar with one of our brands or jewelry brand, and we were doing just a small YouTube test. Of course we were running all their Google and that was going very, very well. But we wanted to test YouTube. They wanted to test YouTube, ran it for a little while, and they were like, I don't know. I mean the numbers and the different platforms, they look okay and this's one thing we've seen with YouTube a lot under attributed in platform almost always, it's like, well, we're going to ask.

We're going to ask. Actually, they didn't even think about this. They were just like, well, we don't know if we're going to keep going. And then they came back to us the next week and they said, Hey, wait a minute. We started doing post-purchase surveys and we started looking one out of five people this last week mentioned YouTube, and they're like, oh, let's jack up the spend here. So it's one of those things where maybe it doesn't show up in the attribution modeling, but you ask people and then you see it. And I'm curious too, I got asked this question, remember I bought some apparel online. It was a brand that I really like, and I saw this question of how long have you known about us? And I stopped to think about it. I was like, you know what? I think I first heard about this brand seven, eight months ago, and I just hadn't done anything. I saw it, thought it was cool, didn't need it, kind of moved on whatever. But the ads, I kind of saw the ads for a little while. They went away and then they came back. Any surprise learnings you're seeing there? I know with Fawn, you found the buying cycle was short 30 days, but any examples where you've learned the opposite, where there's a significant number of people that heard about our brand months ago and they're just now purchasing?

Trevor:

Yeah, yeah. There was a golf bag brand that we worked with or that uses bestie, and they were really, really shocked by their results. They found that 60% of their audience didn't hear about or didn't purchase until after a year. So they were in this buyer's journey for a year. And so one of the things for them, if you're a golfer, golfing is a seasonal sport. In some states it's not. Obviously in the Californias and the Arizonas and states like Florida, you can golf year round and plenty of other states, but buying season, there's a difference between golfing season and buying season. And so what a lot of these golf brands will do is they'll shut their ads down or they'll turn spend down dramatically in the off months. And that's what this brand would do is they would turn their spend down dramatically, but it come to find out they need to be advertising in October so that they are going to have a really good February, march, april, may when people really, really start to buy.

And so that was really shocking for them. You tend to see that a little bit more though anytime I've recognized anytime something's above $200, you do tend to see the buyer's journey extended a little bit more. That becomes less of an impulse buy. And so you start to get more responses like oh three to six to 12 months before I heard about you before I actually purchase. So yeah, we see it all the time. We see it short and long. I mean, the Fawn Design one was interesting because that was a $200 diaper bag too, but it was under 30 days. But I also think a diaper bag can be very problem solution. So people definitely can buy those

Brett:

Problem solution. There's an easy justification for the diaper bag. I'm going to look like a good mom, I'm going to feel like a good mom. I'm going to be able to execute a good mom with golf equipment. And some of those other things like maybe I got to justify this with my spouse, or maybe I got to sneak in the purchase or do I really need it? So maybe I'll ask for it for Christmas. All kinds of things like that can kind of come into play so good. And I think this just underscores the more we know about our customers, the more we're going to shift. I would argue for the golf client, if I knew that my 60% of people were waiting more than a year, I may look at, okay, I don't have enough urgency. Maybe that's unnaturally long. Maybe I need to up my urgency or how can I get someone on the list?

How can I get them to purchase a little bit quicker? But I think part of that is it's just going to be a longer sales cycle. It's going to be longer than diaper bags or something else. And so then I need to work within that. And yes, I need to maybe now advertise more in October and do some of the off months, but if I know that I'm going to shift my behavior. Let's talk about, and I love the questions you mentioned so far, what else would you say are kind of top questions to ask? And are those the three you start with and then you go somewhere else? And then when and where should you be asking these? Yeah,

Trevor:

Super good question. So a couple different answers to those, right? So it's like attribution stuff is always great to just be getting a better handle on things. I think a lot of people rag on attribution with post-purchase surveys because they say, oh, how does a customer remember? But at the end of the day, sometimes it doesn't matter if the customer's wrong about what they remember because at the end of the day, it's what they remember what, so they

Brett:

Remember that you're going to see patterns as well. If it's true, if you start seeing patterns emerge with a lot of customers, you can bank on it being true or true enough to take action

Trevor:

A hundred percent. Eventually things start to you get enough data and you're like, okay, hey, are all these people wrong? So attribution is always a really good one. Those are the three questions I love the most. I don't think that those three questions are good questions to ask alone. So if you're just asking, how did you hear about us? That's tough because it doesn't tell the full story. If you're just asking what brought you to the website today? If you're just asking how long have you known? It just doesn't tell the full story. So I like those three questions in that story. Those

Brett:

Three pair well together like fine wine and cheese, you got to have 'em together.

Trevor:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Some other really good questions, I talked about motivation. Motivation question is by far one of my favorites because that gives you your value props. You think that your value props, your unique selling propositions are X, y, Z, but your customers are telling you exactly why I thought that somebody was buying because, but they're actually buying because they want to help their kids' confidence. I never thought about that, so let me change. And that nowadays, you probably know this, especially on the YouTube side of things, we know this from meta and TikTok, audience segmentation, that kind of stuff, placements that stuff. No more silver bullets when it comes to media buying like that anymore. The silver bullets are how you create your content and how you message it. And so the motivation question is so pivotal because then you bring that to your creative team or to your social media team or to your media buyers or whatever, and you're now telling 'em, this is why people buy.

Brett:

And you can potentially maybe shift the audience you're building just a little bit on Google. You've got the ability to shift based on keywords and things like that. But yeah, ultimately you're shifting the angle in the story and think about how big of a difference this is. What if my ad was 30 seconds and 20 of it was about saving the environment? And then I just mentioned something about my kids' confidence. That's very different than saying, Hey, kids struggle when they wet the bed and when we've seen these studies that do this, but man, if you can increase that, I'm just totally making this up as I go, but you lean into confidence and then you say, and what if you could cut the time training from an average of three months to just two weeks? And you know what? This is also, you're saving the environment. You're going to save money. Those become cherries on top or the additional benefits. Everybody wants that. Nobody wants to destroy the environment, nobody wants to spend more, but those just weren't the primary drivers. So focus on what's primary and then mention those other things that really kind of push someone over the edge. And that is a big, big difference That can be a total game changer for your ad campaign. So absolutely love that.

Trevor:

Some other questions that kind of tie into motivation is like how do you plan to use the product? So whatcha are going to use this product for what problems are you trying to solve? Why did you pick us over a competitor? What almost stopped you from purchasing today? That's a really, really good one, dude.

Brett:

I love that one. Any insights on that? Any insights that have come from that question? What almost prevented you from buying?

Trevor:

Yeah, absolutely. You get a lot of people who taught price compared to lack of review. So I've recognized that the people who, because you can do, at least with bestie, you can do follow-up questions. So if somebody says, Hey, it was a price thing, you can ask about the reviews or the testimonials that they saw. Did you see any reviews, testimonials or do you have any social proof? And so I think that ties a lot into it. You get some people who say your website was just really, it was really challenging to get through to get to the product page. That was really challenging. You get some people who just will flat out say, we've seen responses such as the competitor I was looking at was out of stock. And so I came to you. I mean, you get all sorts of stuff. You get all sorts stuff.

Brett:

You're my second choice.

Trevor:

You're our second choice. But here I am,

Brett:

You lucked out. But man, talk about valuable insights. So it shows how you stack up and man, what insight would that be where you're like, yeah, you know what? I almost didn't buy because your website's so stinging hard to navigate. But I was really desperate, so I bought it, right? So that's like, oh no, my website's great. It's converting. No, you're actually, they won it so bad. They're fighting through your website. So yeah, love that question. By the way, before I forget, and this just a quick side note, we'll get back to this topic. You mentioned Utah a minute ago. I'm in Missouri. We're Midwest guys. Our golfing season is not the same as our friends in California and Florida and Arizona. Why is Utah such like this D two C hotbed? I remember several years ago we had a client in Ogden, Utah, so flew into Salt Lake, went just, I think, is it north? Is it north of Salt Lake? Yep.

Trevor:

Ogden's North.

Brett:

Yeah. And maybe it was Logan, actually Logan. Anyway, but this guy was like, dude, you got to move out here. I'm like, well, I'm pretty plugged in Missouri. I'm not moving. But he's like, no, no, no, no. The scene here is amazing, like tech D two C, it's happening. So what are some of you posted on LinkedIn recently? Some of the brands, the amazing brands that are in Utah. Can you run through some of those by memory and what's with Utah? Why is it such a hotbed of D two C and tech growth?

Trevor:

There's so many responses that I've heard from this down to, from religion to all sorts of things. But yeah, I mean there's a lot of really cool D two C back to businesses from the Tech D two C side of things, or also the merchant side of things. So you've got Ekk who's here, that's one of the fastest growing footwear brands in the world right now. D two C footwear brands. You've got brands like Kodiak Cakes that started here. You've got brands like Clean, simple Eats, just ingredients. Those are in the C P G space. You've got Mixers, which is a big female founded brand that's absolutely crushing it right now here in Utah. You've got Gab Wireless. I'm not sure if you've heard of Gab Wireless, but that's this massive brand right now where it's phones for kids. So it's giving them the smartphone experience without the dangers of smartphones. Dude,

Brett:

Love that.

Trevor:

Which you'll have to look it up. They're one of the most fantastic brands right now as somebody with kids. I love it. Traeger, you've heard of Traeger. Traeger started out

Brett:

Here. I totally heard of Traeger. Yeah. Got lots of friends

Trevor:

That Traeger. Yep. My lifetime value at Traeger is stupid, so that's great for me.

Brett:

V i p at Trager.

Trevor:

Yeah, that's right. Also

Brett:

Shout out, I saw on your list thread wallets. Yep, threads. Shout out to Colby Bauer. He was on the podcast. Oh,

Trevor:

Amazing.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude's awesome. It's been a hot minute. It's may have been like three years ago. May have been pre,

Trevor:

Yeah, Kolby and Mackenzie are great. You were about to say Skull Candy, that's another brand that came out of Utah that's still here in Utah. Kick in Alive and well, I mean list goes on and on some e-commerce brands, you've got pattern pattern's absolutely massive. You've got

Brett:

Pillow Cube.

Trevor:

Oh yeah, pillow Cube's a big one. You've got creatively, you've got the Harmons Brothers came out of here. I think you've got the list is Big Corso, which is route shipping insurance. Those guys came out of Utah. So it's massive. So reasoning why, I don't know. You do have, Utah is just in general a very entrepreneurial minded place.

Brett:

That's what I've noticed.

Trevor:

Yeah. I have some theories I have behind it is you get a lot of young men who go on what's called moron missions. So like L D SS missions two

Brett:

Year Mission, man, it's like primetime preparation for being an entrepreneur.

Trevor:

Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest, I am one of those people who did that, who did a two year mission. And one of the biggest things you learn as a missionary is number one, hard work. You are working your butt off. It's nonstop. You're up at 6:00 AM you're in bed by 10 30 and you're on a very rigid schedule. And it's during these years of your life that are really impressionable, right? 19 to 21 years old. And then not only that, but you are getting rejected literally 24 7. And if you're an entrepreneur, like rejection is, you just got to be used to rejection. You got people who are telling you left and that this is not going to work. You got your parents, especially if you got older school parents who are maybe more in the baby boomer side who don't understand entrepreneurship, who are just go get the nine to five. So you get a lot of rejection and so you're not afraid. You're not afraid of failure. And so I think personally that that's a huge, huge reason is I

Brett:

Think it is too. I think it's huge because that learning to deal with rejection, and I got my start in college was selling radio, trying to put myself through college. I got married young and I dealt with a lot of rejection and I realized this isn't that bad. I didn't die. I got told no, but I didn't die. This is no big deal. I'm just going to keep cranking. And what's interesting, and we're people of faith, I've got lots of friends who are Mormons, but not Mormon myself, but my son is selling solar systems door to door. And it's another, all the great companies are based out of Utah and it makes sense. And so he's leading a team. He's in Connecticut right now leading a team, but most of his buddies there are went on warm a missions and stuff. And I would agree, man, one of the best ways to train as an entrepreneur or salesperson is going through that experience. So

Trevor:

There's also a couple colleges here as well that really pride themselves in entrepreneurship as well. So it's not just the religion side of things, but there are some colleges that are very, very into it. You also get on the other side of things this kind of times, Utah is a very family friendly culture. And so traditional motherhood, fatherhood roles are very big. And you also get a lot of big female founders here have been moms who are thinking about other things that they can do. So you get a lot of moms out here who've started businesses that have blown up and just succeeded just out of solving a problem for other moms.

Brett:

Don't Sleep on Utah, man, Utah, it's a rising star in the D two C place. Keep your eye on it, think about how you can partner there. And so really, really good stuff. Love this topic so much. And my head is spinning and now I'm thinking of questions and advice. I got to give you clients so we can really maximize what we're doing here. But love that you talked about, what problem are you solving? Why'd you choose us over competitors? You, and I know I'm putting you on the spot here, but can you think of any insights or aha moments from those questions?

Trevor:

Yeah, I can think of one. So there was a men's bag company who did you choose us over? Your competitors? And a massive, massive response that we got. So one of this brand that was using bestie, they started to just go really, really deep into the entertainment or the, there's a name. It's combining entertainment and education at the same time. Yeah,

Brett:

Edutainment.

Trevor:

Edutainment, right Space. It's something that was just kind of like bags kind of lame ish. And they went really, really hard on TikTok and started to get a big TikTok following from an organic perspective. And so these people found that, hey, one of the number one reasons people are picking us over competitors, bigger competitors that have a big name in the space is because they're following us on TikTok and they love what we're doing and the questions we're answering and how they, we've turned such a mundane thing into something a lot more fun and turn something mundane to fun and interesting. And so that was a huge reason why they're picking them over a competitor.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so great. And it's just a reminder that yes, we do want good features and we want to save money or pay a fair price or whatever, but we also want to be delighted and we want something to kind of make our day better. And so sometimes just the content you create, the message you present is enough for someone to say, Hey, all things being equal here as far as features and stuff, I like your personality better. I get more enjoyment from working with your brand than with another. And I'm going to go with you one of my favorite stories, tushy, the Bidet attachment company. So I had Mickey Agrawal on the podcast a couple of years ago, and so she talked about, Hey, we want to communicate just like we're friends with people and we want the whole journey to be fun and entertaining and we want people to talk about it.

And so we saved this. We bought one for the office because people requested it, but there's this little guide that's this number two shall pass, and it's just like a series of puns, like bathroom puns. So it's like part guide, but then part just humor. And that thing has been passed around, hopefully didn't make trips to the bathroom and then get passed around. I think it's all been contained in the office, but people talk about it, it's hilarious. It's so much better than just a user manual. And so adding personality in what you're doing, it can allow you to charge a premium and really endear customers to you. So really good stuff. Really good stuff. Awesome, man. Well, hey, any recent episodes of the pod that you want to highlight that people should go back and listen to? I mean, I know we should just binge listen to all of it, but can you think of

Trevor:

Any? Yeah, should we just have an episode where we just Yeah, I'm trying to think of maybe some of my favorite episodes. Kik, we had the VP of marketing over at Kik on, he was awesome to listen to. Really, really cool to see what's going on with that. Because what happened is the story of Kik is such, they kind of switched their entire persona buyer of who was originally buying the shoe to who's now buying it now and how they've scaled to a nine figure business. That's a really, really cool episode. I think we just did an episode where just my co-host and I, we just did it. We didn't have a guest on, it was our actually most recent one. And it was actually one of my favorites where we just talked about what content is converting right now, what content is working to drive sales, why is it working? Why is certain content not working anymore? What are some inspirational brands who are doing it cool, who are some inspirational, we dove into directors and tied certain directors and how they create movies and why they're so good and some of those attributes and how you can pull that from your business. So that was a great episode.

Brett:

Yeah, that's fantastic. So just as a teaser for that episode, what is some content that is converting now versus that isnt? So

Trevor:

One of the things we talk a lot about is you've got this, there's a lot of trends out there that merchants follow. Oh, I'm seeing a lot of people do use U G C right now, so I'm going to create U G C. I see a lot of people creating listicle ads such as for the five reasons why I bought Tushy or whatever. And so I think that there is, there's kind of this two-tone approach that you need to go about. The brands should go about things. One is I think that following trends can be great. Try to be early in some of those trends because you'll see that U G C is still super important, but it is not doing what it used to do and people are starting to see through a lot of it. So you got to go a little bit deeper,

Brett:

Has to be good. U G C, it used to be just run U G C, you win. Now it's got to be this U G C has to serve a purpose. It's got to be authentic, it's got to be compelling, it's got to be good.

Trevor:

Yeah, exactly right, exactly. So how do you get to trends as quick as possible? So totally good with doing that kind of stuff. I don't think U G C ever goes anywhere. What's now happening a little bit more. What we're seeing with U G C is U G C tends to do a lot better towards the bottom of the funnel. So it's like, hey, I don't really care what somebody thinks about a product that I don't know about yet. So tell me about the product first. Then I want to see a few people who look like they really love the product, work with it. But the other thing that's working really good is just storytelling ads. It kind of goes against the grain where nowadays it's like, Hey, that first five seconds is so important. So first five seconds is so important, which is totally true, but most people are thinking those first five seconds is five reasons why you should, or this is why you shouldn't do X, or this is how I made more money here, or this is why my butt is getting cleaner, or you're getting these really impactful hooks.

But I even think that with how saturated TikTok is and what's happening with Instagram right now, you're getting so many people who are, that's becoming noise. Those hooks are becoming noise. I'm not saying that they don't work still and they can't, but when you just jump into the narrative of a problem, oh, the other day I was doing X, Y, z. That goes against the hook, like your general hook standards. But people are starting to key in on storytelling a lot more. And then if you can get to the problem really, really quickly and you really follow a good storytelling framework, which is just jumping right into it, what is the problem, what is the solution? And you're kind of following it, that content's working really, really

Brett:

Good. Yeah, I love this. And really I think this comes down to understanding why is something working. So if U G C is working or if listicles are working, why it's not, just because there's something magic in that it's not just totally formulaic, there's something behind it. So understanding the psychology and the persuasion behind it and the attention grabbing factors, you got to understand that. And then I think you can kind of riff on things. And I agree with you, I think U G C will never die, but you can't just wing it. You got to be good at U G C. And I think that's really key. So dude, this has been fantastic. Thoroughly enjoyed this episode. And so you got to go check out the podcast and it is the Unstoppable Marketer. Did I get that right? Yep. Nailed it. Unstoppable Marketer and then bestie app. So how can people check out bestie? Give us the quick pitch. I think people are now sold on your approach to asking questions, but why should I choose bestie and how can I learn more? Yeah,

Trevor:

Yeah. So bestie app.co is where you can go. We offer free trial right now, so go check it out. We're more than happy to jump on a call with anybody and help you set some stuff up. We're kind of approaching things a little bit different right now. There's plenty of post-purchase survey tools that you can look at, but one of the things that we're most interested in is how can we deliver actionable insights that the user doesn't have to really do anything to figure out marketers nowadays we have, each one of us has a thousand tools. We're looking at every single day. We're being pulled in a hundred different directions. And so the question is, how can we deliver those insights to you? So you have actionable ways to just get up, you see what's going on with your surveys, what's happening with your customers, and you got the actual tips to go and check it out. And so go check it out. We've got some really cool things happening right now, some cool partnerships and some cool feature drops that are going to happen in the next couple of weeks. So go there, or if you want to just follow me on social media, all my handles are at the Trevor Crump and I talk about bestie all the time as well. So that

Brett:

Is awesome. So check it out, bestie app.co. You just got to do it. Get started. Do the free trial because when you know more about your customers, you know what to do differently and you know how to maximize things. Trevor Crump, ladies and gentlemen, Trevor, that was a ton of fun, man. You crushed it. We'll have to do this again sometime.

Trevor:

Absolutely. Now I got to have you on online, so we will swap it. Yeah,

Brett:

Absolutely. Man. I thought you'd never ask. I was just sitting over here like Unstoppable marketer, all these cool guests. I'm like, I've never been a guest.

Trevor:

We'll get You seem unstoppable. You seem unstoppable. So we'll get you

Brett:

There. Awesome. Thanks dude. Tons of fun and I look forward to it.

Trevor:

I appreciate you having me on.

Brett:

Awesome. And thank you for tuning in. We could not do this show without you, and hey, we'd love your feedback. What would you like to hear more of? What other topics should we dive into on this podcast? Also, connect with me on the socials, getting pretty active on LinkedIn, posting almost daily with some good stuff, good clips, good insights. So reach out to me there. Love to keep the conversation going there. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

‍

Gracey Ryback, an A-List Amazon Influencer, began her journey on TikTok by talking about products she loved. Soon after, she started hosting Amazon Lives. To date, she has driven seven figures in new sales for various products on Amazon. 

I first met Gracey when we both spoke at SellerCon in Austin earlier this summer. Her presentation was amazing, and I immediately knew I had to get her on the show.

If you’re like most of the brands I know, then you’ve likely never tried Amazon Lives, or if you did, you did it as a brand and got little to no traction. 

The good news is that your competition likely isn’t using Amazon Lives or Amazon Influencers either... so you have a potential edge.

Here’s what Gracey and I discuss:

• Advantages of Amazon Live with an A-List Influencer vs. Live as a brand.
• How to show up on the Amazon home page with your Amazon Live.
• How to find Amazon Influencers to work with that fit your brand.
• TikTok Shop - how it works, how to leverage for growth on and off Amazon.
• How to fully leverage influencer content.
• What is the influencer marketing mindset, and why is it critical for success in influencer marketing?
• How creative control may be killing your results with influencer marketing.

Transcript

Gracey:

The more times you show up on an Amazon Live over time, the better results you're going to get. It's consistent and slow and just show up more often because every single time you go live, you're reaching more people. So don't expect a one-off huge spike success. That's not really how the platform works for Amazon Live more like small and steady and long-term.

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce. And today we're talking about a topic we've never dove into on this podcast before. We're talking about Amazon influencers, Amazon Live, Amazon affiliate TikTok shop, and it's going to be amazing and inspiring, and you'll for sure get your money's worth from this podcast. Now I met today's guest when we were both speaking at Seller Con in Austin, Texas packed room, Amazon Sellers on the edge of their seat, ready to learn some tips and strategies for growing their business. And there was one speaker, one speaker when she wrapped up, people were chanting her name. They were like Gracey Gray c chanting for Encore. They were so excited about this content. I may be embellishing a little bit, but a lot of that is true. And so we connected in the green room. I spoke two, no one was chanting my name, but that's okay. We both met in the green room and decided, hey, we got to do a podcast together. So with that, Gracey Ryback is my guest. Gracey, what's up? How's it going? And welcome to the show. Hi

Gracey:

Brett. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here and get into a topic that you've never talked about before. I

Brett:

Know it's a brand new topic, which we talk about Amazon all the time. And for listeners that listen frequently, which I hope is all of you, you know that I'm passionate about building a brand on Amazon, not just selling stuff, not just being a good seller. That's fine if that's where you are, but when you can build a brand on Amazon, that's when the real power's there. That's when you got something you can sell later, something that's maximized in value, something you can start launching new products and benefit there too. And so I think what you do, Gracey, is perfect for those that are ready to build a brand on Amazon. And so as a quick backstory, just 60, 90 seconds, how did you become an Amazon influencer and how did you become an expert in this space?

Gracey:

Yeah, so let's flash back to 2020 when the world was going through what the world was going through. And I was actually just trying to create content on TikTok just as a passion project. It was just for fun. And at the time my mindset was like, I'll never make a penny from social media. I'm not that kind of person. I'm no influencer. I just want to help people save money on Amazon. And that was my intention behind my content. So I just started creating TikTok videos without expectation and not knowing what would happen. My contents started creating traction and I started growing in followers. Throughout that process, I started realizing that there was something happening on the other side, the A K V Amazon brand side for sellers that I didn't know about stuff was selling. So in the process, I met some Amazon sellers who introduced me into this world of what it's like selling on Amazon, what they're looking for to make a successful brand. And in turn, I realized what I do is very highly connected to them. So it only made sense that I started learning more about both sides of the industry. So that's kind of how we got into it. And throughout the past three years that I've been doing this, I've also expanded to seven different platforms. I do Amazon Live as well, and I live and breathe this. So,

Brett:

And driving multiple seven figures in sales as a power influencer, I would call you. And what's so cool, and the way you described that, it made me think of something that's I think a really important business principle. So you started not with the goal to make money, although that's great, that's where all entrepreneurs, but you started with the goal to how can I be helpful? How can I help people save money on Amazon? Lemme just create content with that as the goal. And then it took off. And one of my favorite stories comes from Jim Collins. I'm a huge Jim Collins fan, so good to great, great by choice must reads for anybody in business. But he's a big Peter Drucker fan, as am I one of the greatest management thinkers of all time. And Jim Collins tells a story about when he was a younger teacher at Stanford, he met Peter Drucker and Jim was like, how can I assure that I'm going to be successful?

And Peter Drucker said, you're asking the wrong question you shouldn't desire. You shouldn't try to be successful, try to be useful. If you're useful, you'll be successful. I just love that. I think that's so good. That's what we should do as brands, as managers, as leaders, as influencers, whatever. How can I be useful if I'm useful to other people that I'm going to be successful? And that's what you have done. So talk to us a little bit about Amazon lives, and I know we've all seen it. You log into Amazon on the homepage, you see it and it's on mobile and stuff like that. But what's the power there? What are some of the results you've seen just set the stage for somebody who maybe doesn't know much about Amazon Lives?

Gracey:

Sure. So Amazon lives started, I want to say right before 2020. And it was their take on trying to bring more personality to the products and trying to do more product demos, but on Amazon's platform. And so they have a bunch of creators and there's different tiers of creators that we can talk about, but basically you can talk about up to 40 products per stream. You can talk about anything that sells on Amazon. There's two types of streams, there's a regular stream and then there's a deal stream. And the viewership between these two streams can differ a lot. But the main point of it is basically to highlight products that shoppers may or may not be looking for on Amazon, and then bring somebody who is a creator, an influencer, potentially an expert on that product or a loving user of that product and just have somebody able to talk about it, show it, demo it, and be able to answer questions if buyers and customers have them.

So it's a really fun platform. I do streams about three times a week and I've highlighted countless products in all different niches and areas. And I think the real value from them is getting those traffic clicks to your product and of course the sales that come along with it, but also having somebody put personality behind your product and be like, this is how I use it, this is what I use it for, this is what I like about it. Here's all the questions I can answer about it, and here's my personal experience. And you don't get that from a product page or a listing.

Brett:

Yeah, I love it. I mean, it's really all about product discovery, isn't it? Because one shortcoming of Amazon, and I love Amazon, it's the largest retailer online by far. But still the vast majority of products that are discovered on Amazon are discovered through search, meaning someone has to be actively shopping for your product or your category anyway. And I really think that's one of the big reasons why Amazon created Amazon Live. They want it to be the Q vvc or little infomercials where, hey, maybe I'm bored and maybe I just want to look at stuff and see what's available. And now I'm going to be introduced to a product that I didn't even know I needed, but now I can't live without it and we all love to buy stuff. And that became very true, even more true during the pandemic. Retail therapy is a real thing. It's a real thing every day, but especially then where we're like, man, I got nothing else to do. I'm going to buy something that feels good. I get some endorphins or some dopamine release if I buy something. Yeah,

Gracey:

I do that too. Sometimes I'm on board. I'm like, well, lemme browse Amazon as my social media and try to find something I maybe need or probably don't

Brett:

At all. So let's do something really quickly, Gracey, this will be kind of fun. Let's do confession time. I'll confess something as well. When you're bored, what is a category? What is a shopping category you go to frequently where you're like, maybe I'll just kind of look at this category and see what I can find?

Gracey:

Not to be stereotypical, but it's always fashion and beauty for me. I always find some really cool beauty product that I maybe want to review or just want to try. And then fashion is also fun because there's a world of Amazon fashion that is kind of underbelly and there's a lot of good stuff there. And a lot of times people are like, where'd you get that? Where'd you wear that from? And I'm like, Amazon. And they're always shaken by that. They're always,

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, really Amazon, Amazon's like a boys for cheap stuff or whatever, which wasn't true, but that's a perception. So my confession, and I don't know how masculine this sounds, but I'm just going to say it anyway, it's not beauty. It's not beauty, but I like shopping for shoes, man. I just got some new Adidas. If I was a little more flexible, I could kick 'em up here and you can see. But it also also shirts. This is a relatively new shirt, so on occasion if I'm bored, I will buy a new shirt or I'll buy a new pair of shoes and I don't feel overly guilty about that. So

Gracey:

I love it. My last thing has been watches. I've been really into watches recently, so maybe you can

Brett:

Relate. So I like watches, but I love my Apple watch, so I'm like, I don't know that I would ever do anything different. So I watches are more of a fashion accessory I know for a lot of people. For me it's kind of functional, but I get that. I can see my dad was a huge watch guy, so he was always shopping for watches. But yeah, that's good. I like that. I like that. So yeah, so this is a way for people to discover our product. So what are you seeing most successful as Amazon lives? Are they most successful when it's someone like you hosting them where the platform inside and out, you're natural, you're like TV host or Q VVC host or whatever, or should a brand host a live themself or is that even possible? What do you recommend there?

Gracey:

So can stream themselves as long as they're brand registered on Amazon, they have the ability to go live and they would show up on their own brand storefront and they basically can either drive their own traffic if they have that external traffic or basically the only people that would see their streams are the people that are already shopping on their page listing storefront. There is pros and cons to this brands. It really depends on how much your brand has created a presence on Amazon already on your storefront, how many followers your storefront has, and basically that's going to be the audience that you're going to watch if you are streaming as a brand. The good thing is that the audience that you have is probably much more targeted and much more vertical than an influencer doing an Amazon live stream, which could be anybody and everybody watching their own audience or even Amazon's onsite audience. So the viewership numbers may be fully different, but you might get higher revenue if you are reaching a very vertical audience.

Brett:

And just to clarify Grace, just to make sure, this is new to me too, so I just want to make sure I'm following. So if I'm going live on Amazon as a brand, then that live is only visible if someone is on my storefront or on one of my product detail pages. Is that correct? And it's only visible while I'm live, or can you replay it later or how does that

Gracey:

Work? No, I'm less familiar with the brand side of things than I am with the creator side of things. I want to say that live streams do archive after a certain amount of time, and I do believe that they're only really highlighted while they're actually live similar to influencer streams. And the lifespan I would say is like 24 hours, 48 hours after I stream, and then it kind of goes away and makes room for the new live stuff. But influencer live streams are a bit different because in that sense, and I also want to mention time commitment as a brand, unless you want to hire a creator to do the livestream on your behalf for your brand, it may or may not be worth investing all that time into As a brand owner, if it's like you and a small team and you have much better things to do, that is very, very important to note.

But if you are working with a creator or an Amazon Live influencer, then obviously you have two A-list placements and a-list is the top tier of Amazon Live creator. And those streams have potential placement on either the Amazon deal page, daily deals page, which is a great placement, or the amazon.com homepage. If you kind of scroll to the middle of the amazon.com homepage, you can usually see a little live stream with the carousel of products in the middle. And so these streams are going to get a lot more viewership than a brand stream would just because of the placement. But the caveat here is that anybody and everybody can see this stream, so it may not be somebody interested in the products. So that is the difference,

Brett:

But it really makes sense. You made a great point. So if my brand isn't huge on Amazon and myself and my team, we've got to decide where do we invest our efforts? And so do I invest a little more time in running Facebook ads or Google ads or Amazon ads, or do I go live and if I don't have a huge following, then hardly anybody's going to see my live. And so it makes a lot of sense, I think in most cases for someone to partner with an influencer like yourself or somebody else and just say like, Hey, I want you to run this. It's going to have a much broader reach, and you'll probably find quality in the quantity, the larger the audience, the more likely you're going to find some people that are likely to buy. And so that makes a lot of sense. How is that structured? If I'm a brand and I'm selling, give me a product that

Gracey:

You like a mirror,

Brett:

A mirror, I'm selling mirrors and I am looking for an influencer. How am I doing that? Is there an influencer marketplace? Am I going to be paying an influencer like a commission of every deal that's closed? Is that trackable? Am I just paying a flat fee? What does that look like typically?

Gracey:

That is great question. So there are a couple ways to find Amazon influencers, and the way that I suggest is if you're going to invest in Amazon Live, the thing that's going to get you the most R O I possible is to work with an A-list Amazon influencer that frequently shows up on the Amazon deal page or the Amazon homepage. If you're doing a deal stream on the deals page, every product in the carousel has to fall under three types of deals, three and a half types of deals, a lightning deal, a deal of the day, a seven day deal, or a red limited time bar deal. So those four types of deals are eligible for a deal stream.

Brett:

So one more time, that was lightning deal deal today, the red bar, what was the other one? Seven

Gracey:

Day deal.

Brett:

Seven day deal.

Gracey:

Got it. And then homepage placement. It can be anything and everything doesn't necessarily have to be on deal.

Brett:

So how did somebody become an Alister? So I know you're an Alister, but how do you become an A-list influencer?

Gracey:

So everyone, part of the Amazon influencer program is eligible to start live streaming. You have to download a little app and then once everybody starts out as a rising star. So once you stream a certain amount of minutes and drive a certain amount of revenue, you can apply for insider level, which is mid-tier level, insider level. Once you get I think 2000 followers on your storefront, on your Amazon storefront and drive a certain amount of revenue, then you can apply for a-list. Now a-list is a bit more challenging because Amazon has to manually hand vet every A-list or they approve because obviously they want good quality on those highly viewed placements. And that's basically how you do it. You just stream a certain amount, drive a certain amount of revenue, and then you can apply and just make sure you have a good quality live stream where you're entertaining and you know what you're talking about. And another thing that's really important to Amazon is that us creators, we have the product in hand or at least experience with the products that we talk about so that we're not just reading off a page or talking willy-nilly about something we don't know about.

Brett:

Yeah, I love it. I've looked at just a couple of Amazon lives, not very many, and the few I looked at were kind of painfully boring. This was like the bad Q V C host or someone who's not really comfortable on camera. And so you got to get good. I am curious though, now I slip into podcast voice when I'm on the podcast. There's been a few times when I've gone back downstairs to the office and I'm talking to my assistant or something and you're like, who are you? Hey, you are still in podcast mode. I'm like, oh, sorry. Yeah. So do you get into Amazon live mode? And maybe you're there now because we're recording, but if you're not, can you give us a flavor of Gracey pitching a mirror on Amazon Live? What would that look like?

Gracey:

That is so funny you say that because whenever I'm on Amazon Live, it's just me. I don't have a co-host. It's me for at least one and a half to three hours at once.

Brett:

Dang, that's a long

Gracey:

Time. And I'm talking about 20 to 25 products normally, and I am just nonstop for two hours at a time. And when I'm with my Amazon friends in person, they're like, dang, Gracey, I watched your stream and you talk a lot, but in person you don't talk that much. I'm like

Brett:

Part of the game. That's how it's successful. Now I'm curious, are you, after a live, are you wiped? Are you energized? I

Gracey:

Am hyped up on energy. I usually stream very late at night because that just fits better with my schedule. I have just my schedule, my regulars, they come in late at night, and so I try to sleep at night, but it's normally like two or 3:00 AM

Brett:

I recommend it. Yeah,

Gracey:

Wired up and I can't fall asleep well after a stream.

Brett:

So funny. Yeah, I'm the same. Don't, we're not recording at night. I don't podcast at night, but I'm totally fired up after a day of podcast recording. I'm tired too sometimes if it's like three or four, but for the most part I'm like, yeah, a little bit, but I'm like, I'm feeling good, man. I'm like, this was a good day. This is what I love to do, so that's awesome. Okay, so talk about Amazon affiliate. So Amazon affiliate, how is that related to Amazon Live? I'm assuming the best influencers are also part of the Amazon affiliate program, but walk us through that.

Gracey:

So think of Amazon affiliate as the upper umbrella and think of Amazon Influencer as the STEM of the umbrella. So I guess you can technically apply for the influencer program by itself, but Amazon affiliate has been around since I believe the nineties, and that was Amazon's affiliate link program before social media became what it is today. It was more so websites and articles and blogs across the internet where people could share products and affiliate links. And then once social media became what it is, I think probably closer to 20 20, 20 19, Amazon started gearing the influencer program towards social media. So more of graphics, more of giving influencers Amazon storefronts so they can drive their traffic to Amazon storefronts, which they would get commissioned for any sales they drive off the storefront. And also the opportunity to live stream and also the opportunity to create little shoppable review videos, which we can talk about too. I think that's a really great topic to talk about. But yeah, this whole influencer program is like a STEM off the affiliate program that's more social media focused and gives influencers more opportunities of ways to earn while sharing their products.

Brett:

Nice. So most of the A-list influencers, they've got their own storefront. You've got your own storefront where you can list product. Got it. Okay. Everybody does. Makes sense. Yeah. So what is a shoppable review video? I'm assuming that's a video that has a longer shelf life. Maybe someone puts it on, you put it on your storefront, I assume. Could a brand put that on their storefront as well or on their P D P or something like that? So

Gracey:

This is a topic that I've been talking about for a bit, but I think it's a really crucial one for your topic of brand building and just making sure that your brand has people behind it and personalities behind it. And it's not just a random product. So little review videos, any influencer with a storefront. So any member of the influencer program can upload a little shoppable video, which could be a product review, it could be an unboxing, it could be a testimonial, it could be just like, here's how I use it on a normal day and upload it to their door front. They could tag a specific ASIN on the backend, put a little title on it, put a little thumbnail ally on it, and then that would then be potentially placed on the brand's product listing and it would show up right before the reviews and under the description in the middle section, sometimes it's at the bottom, sometimes it's in the middle, and it just helps shoppers just learn more about the product.

Maybe they want to see it being used, they want to see it in real life, they want to figure out how to assemble it or see how people use it, whatever. And whenever a buyer watches this video, then the creator or influencer, then we get commission for it, kind of like an affiliate link. So it pays off for the creator, it pays off for the brand, and Amazon controls the placement. So not every video places, not every places forever. Sometimes they rotate out, but it's important as a brand to have enough videos in this little line so that it's not empty because if it is empty and you don't have enough videos, they will place your competitors related product videos on your listing.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, not good for sure. Okay, awesome. So then as you're creating these, so the way most influencers work out, are you just kind of deciding what products you want to talk about and you just do it because an influencer, or do you have to reach out to that brand and talk about the way your deal works or you, and then you don't have to answer necessarily just for you, you can answer for influencers in general, or are people just getting the commission through the affiliate program, or what does that typically look like?

Gracey:

So I mean, a lot of people when they're starting out are just recommended to talk about products they already have around the house, stuff that they use, stuff they have stuff they like, stuff they don't. And then once they kind of exhaust that, then they can reach out to brands, they can basically create those partnerships. And a lot of times because the creators are getting paid by viewership and by any buyers that click on the page, I do know a lot of creators that if it's a high value product, they want the product anyway. They'll do this review video for free. And of course if they want to do a small flat fee payment, they can do that too. But usually it's not because you never really know when it's going to place, when it's not going to place, how long it's going to place for. So if it's a flat fee, it's usually small.

Brett:

Makes sense. So as a brand, and I know you maybe kind of mentioned a few things around this, but I just want to get clarity. If I'm a brand that I want to work with an influencer, how do I find those influencers? I know it's possible that influencers are just going to reach out to me as a brand, but how can I go out and be proactive and find somebody? So

Gracey:

If you are leaning towards Amazon Live influencers, I always say just keep an eye on the homepage placement and the deal page placement throughout the day. You're going to find after a couple of days of looking at it, there's going to be the same people showing up all the time. These are the people that are going to frequent the deal page and the best people to work with to get that placement when you do work with them. There's not tons of people who do this. So that's one way to find Amazon Live influencers. And then there's two ways you can find influencer for other things. You can obviously look at your competitor products, related products to your brand and see what videos are showing up on their little shoppable video section. And then you can reach out to those, find their storefront and have them do a video for you, something like that. Or you can go on social media and there are different keywords and hashtags you can search up on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, whatever platform you're looking at. It could be Amazon finds, Amazon favorites, Amazon Hall, Amazon pet, Amazon home, whatever. And you'll find thousands of creators that are creating Amazon content if they're creating Amazon content safe to assume they have an Amazon storefront safe to assume they're in this Amazon world that you can work with them.

Brett:

Nice. Very, very cool. And so any case studies that you can mention, you don't have to mention specific brands or whatnot, but what kind of impact can this have, because I know I've heard people that get on Q V C and it sells a bazillion products or thousands of products. I know some people that have tried Amazon Live, again, not really anything out of it. So what does it typically look like or what are some examples you could share?

Gracey:

So based on the results that I have heard of, I would say that Amazon Live is not the kind of platform that's going to sell you out. For example, it's going to get you some clicks onto your listing. It's going to get you some sales as well. And the best strategy for Amazon Live,

Brett:

New reach, right? New discovery with new prospects that aren't actively searching for you. So there's some real benefit there too.

Gracey:

Yes. Yes. And it's more, I guess the more times you show up on an Amazon live over time, the better results you're going to get. It's consistent and slow and just show up more often because every single time you go live, you're reaching more people. So don't expect a one-off huge spike success. That's not really how the platform works for Amazon. Live more small and steady and long-term. If we're talking about TikTok and social media, then results can vary from nothing to everything. You can sell out, go viral, your brand will never be the same overnight, or you could get a couple thousand sales, you get a couple hundred sales, or you could get a small little bit of sales. It really so highly depends on who you work with, how well the video does, so many factors,

Brett:

So many factors, but I think that's a really good way to frame it. You're going to go live on Amazon, you're not going to sell through your whole inventory, but you're going to make some incremental lift in sales. You're going to reach new people. If you can do this consistently, it's going to build more exposure for your brand. And so it's worth doing for sure. You mentioned TikTok. Let's go there for a little bit. I know you do a lot on TikTok. I have a big following there. Talk a little bit about how you utilize TikTok for promotions and then I would love to get into TikTok shop as

Gracey:

Well. So I started out on TikTok. TikTok is still my favorite platform to this day, and my favorite part about it is that every single video that you make, every product that you talk about, it's a new chance to be reaching a new audience and millions of people. And my favorite thing is that you're not held back by your following. So TikTok has two feeds, the for you page feed and then the following feed, and I don't know anybody who stays on their following feed. So all the time people are just finding new creators, new products, discovering new things. It's like an app for discovery. So that's why you could work with a creator with 5,000 followers and go viral with 5 million views. You can also work with a creator with a million followers and get 5,000 views. So the possibilities and the potential is not determined by your following. It is on every other platform.

Brett:

It's really based on the quality of the content. And I don't mean just production quality, but how interesting is this, how much does it catch fire? Which is so cool because then that means I don't have to work with the biggest influencer, I just got to work with the right influencer. Exactly. And then the cool

Gracey:

Stuff could happen. Exactly.

Brett:

Yeah. So how do you use TikTok as an influencer and how does that tie into Amazon Live and Amazon affiliate?

Gracey:

So when I first started on TikTok, I was just linking Amazon products, no affiliate program knowledge at all. Then after that, after I learned more about it and I was like, wait a second, I didn't know that you could monetize this, then I started monetizing it through the Amazon affiliate program. And that actually led into my transition to Amazon Live, which I was invited to join, I believe early 2021. And that is how I got there, start on TikTok, got invited to Amazon Live. But with TikTok, it's really, really cool because TikTok actually wants to get into e-commerce themselves because they saw what a huge success was happening with users driving TikTok traffic to it. Totally. When I first started with Amazon's influencer program, they did not like TikTok traffic. They thought it was the wild, wild west. They did not support it. It was not a platform they talked of.

And to see how widely that's changed and how focused they are on TikTok now, it's just funny. I mean obviously because it worked and it did so much success, but you would think that they would be friends and partner up, but no, so TikTok actually wanted to create their own shopping platform called TikTok Shop, and basically there is a marketplace of products that sellers and brands can join. And then as creators, they're giving us all these incentives. They're giving us a really good commission cut or they're giving us coupons to buy product samples with, or they're giving free samples out to creators who are participating in TikTok shop a lot. Whenever I create a video, I can tag a product. It has a disclosure that says eligible for commission. That's how it's a TikTok shop video. And TikTok is actually boosting those videos right now and giving them more traffic so that it can run this program and get more traffic to it. And in turn, all these brands are doing so well, maybe not all of them, but a lot of brands are doing so well. New customers selling out, just getting their name out there, the brand awareness of it all. It's been a huge success so far.

Brett:

Interesting. So how does TikTok shop work? So again, if I'm a brand, what should I be thinking about? Am I going to have to find an influencer to help me with TikTok shop? Am I just going to get listed? Then influencers can run wild with it. What does that look like?

Gracey:

I would say if you are on Amazon and you have the ability to put your products on a Shopify site, do that and then join TikTok shop because this may not drive back to Amazon and really help your Amazon business, but it is going to create the brand awareness for your brand that they can then find on Amazon and they can also just create new customers. You can get amazing U G C videos that you can then reach out to the content creator and maybe buy the rights to or whitelist from their page. There's so much you could do from this that can also benefit Amazon, but you can find new creators that will just organically find your product in the marketplace, or you can kind of jumpstart it. You could work with a couple creators at first, get the product name out there and then other creators will follow suit. So there's so much to do with it, but there's just a way to join the TikTok shop marketplace. And I don't believe the requirements are too much because they're really looking for new brands and sellers to join.

Brett:

I was just trying to get it going, trying to hit critical mass, and they're very motivated there. Everybody, all the social platforms want to be shoppable and want to get into the e-commerce game to a certain degree. Same with Facebook and Instagram as well. And so to work with TikTok shop, you've got to be connected through Shopify probably primarily, which by the way, you should be doing that anyway. And I think the vast majority listeners already have their own.com, but if you don't exclusively Amazon, this is a great way to launch on Shopify and this is a great way to start getting traffic and just start building that brand off as Amazon start getting some traffic there, some traction. And so makes a ton of sense. But also to your point, often brands that are Amazon first brands, someone may see the live or the TikTok video or whatever, then they view your website and then they go buy on Amazon. Right,

Gracey:

Exactly. And that happens more often than you would think. I mean, people just love buying on Amazon. It's so seamless. So

Brett:

All my stuff is saved. I get fast shipping, I know it's guaranteed. There's just no friction there. So that's why a lot of people like it. Yeah, love it. So what have you seen brag a little bit, what are some of your success stories on TikTok? Are you getting, what's been some of your most successful promotions on TikTok?

Gracey:

So I find that whenever I create content about products that are trending or products that are being talked about a lot throughout the app, because TikTok is a very trend-based app. If one person's talking about something, your entire feed will be this one thing that everyone's jumping in on and everyone's talking about. So I personally just am a huge user of TikTok. I'm on the app hours every day, I'm working, but also scrolling. And I want to say it's for research purposes,

Brett:

Just entertainment, which is at least partially true and probably mostly true.

Gracey:

It's unhealthy. But in that way, I can see what people are talking about, what people are wanting, what the current trends are. And then what I do is, and this is something I do myself, so I literally just share what I do myself. I want the product, but I don't necessarily want to pay a huge price tag for the product. So I will go and find a cheaper alternative on Amazon. I'll find a deal, a promo code, a coupon, a way to find the same product but not break the bank to get it. And I post about the trendy products, and those are the ones that everyone's like, oh, I've been wanting this, but I didn't want to pay $300 for it. Thanks for finding a deal that's like half off now I'm going to get it. So there is a difference between doing deals and just doing fines and reviews because people can discover the product for the fines and review videos, but the price tag might be too much to pull the trigger on that product right away. But when there's a deal attached to it, they're like, okay, great, it's not going to break the bank. But also this is time sensitive. I know that the deal is not going to be forever. It might miss the opportunity. I've been wanting it, it's been my wishlist, now I'm going to get it. And that is what I love doing.

Brett:

That's awesome. So deal cheats, I know that's your Twitter slash x handle, the same handle. What is with that Elon Musk? So much admire there, brilliant guy, changing lots of industries. I don't get it, man. I don't get the X. Twitter got a lot of value in that name Twitter, and we're still tweeting and it's still called Twitter. But anyway,

Gracey:

I was talking to my friend about it and he's like a huge Twitter user. He gets all his social media and news from Twitter, and I was like, whatcha going to say now I'm going to go X about it. Let

Brett:

Me X you. What does that mean

Gracey:

We did on X Anyway,

Brett:

Yeah, I don't think anybody's going to start calling it X, but we will see. Time will tell. That'll be interesting to fall along for sure. So deal cheats, you're focused on deals. So when you're going live on Amazon or you're going live on TikTok, you are talking about deals. So here's a trending product, a trending category, but here's where you can find it for less

Gracey:

Type thing. Exactly, exactly.

Brett:

Cool, cool. Makes a lot of sense actually what you described, what you described. So interesting. There may be some brands out there selling a premium and they're like, I hate that. I want people to come buy my product for a premium. But here's the thing, I think there are people that are willing to pay a premium. There are people that are just willing, just want to do deals. And then I think there are people that they will pay a premium or they'll get a deal if they don't know there's a strong enough reason to pay a premium. And so I think what you're describing is what happens a lot on Amazon, someone who's wanting to sell out a premium, they run Facebook ads or on YouTube ads and they position their practice premium, but they don't do quite enough to make someone say, I want that product, that exact product.

All they do is they do enough to make someone say, I want a product like that, and then they'll go find something else. And so hey, deals are always going to exist. There's a part of the marketplace that wants that exclusively. But I think it's just a reminder, if you don't want to be a discount brand, you got to work extra hard to not be one. So really, really interesting. Okay, awesome. So any mistakes you see people make as they're getting into Facebook lives or mistakes you see people make when they're trying to get something to go viral on TikTok? What mistakes should we avoid in this process?

Gracey:

So there's two things I want to mention, and I think the first one is that sometimes when brands work with a new creator, they want to have a lot of creative control over how the video goes or what people say. Or a lot of times brands will say, oh, mention that it's vegan and that it's on all these buzzword terms that they may believe is important. They worked really hard to create an amazing product That is all these things, yes, but I as a creator know that that's not going to sell the product necessarily. Cool. I love that it's vegan and gluten-free, but these buzzwords aren't going to sell. And so giving the creator the creative control to say what they know works well and talk to their audience and in the way that they know is what they're looking for and what resonates. That's really important. And so that kind of goes back to just making sure that you look at the creator's other content, see how it performs, see how they come across on camera and make sure you like that and put that trust into them that they know what they're doing. That is one.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. And just a quick thought on that and then keep going on mistakes is you want the influencer to sound authentic. You want their passion to come through. I want excited Gracey talking about my product. I don't want someone to be like, I'm just going to say what you told me to say. I want to get paid as a viewer, as a shopper. I can feel the difference. I can see the difference, I can feel it. I want passion to come through. And so yes, maybe there's some things you're restricted from saying than mention that, but otherwise let the creator create the results are going to be way

Gracey:

Better. Exactly. And then the second one would be their mindset around influencer marketing as well. So something that I've come across is that a lot of brands will compare influencer marketing to the mindset around paid ads. So when they do paid ads, wherever that may be, they put a certain amount of money behind it and they expect a certain r o i to come back to them. And that is not always the case with influencer marketing. There is a lot that you can't really determine or predict with influencer marketing. But also even if you don't get the sales that you're expecting, that doesn't mean that the campaign was a flop, that it was a failure, that it didn't get anything because maybe you got a bunch of external clicks, maybe you got higher ranking, maybe your product got a lot of external traffic. There's so many other things that happen with influencer marketing that is so much more than paid ads and so much more than just sheer sales. So I want the mindset to hopefully understand that not everything is about sales, and I'm getting so many other benefits from working with a creator than just r o i in sales. I

Brett:

Love that understanding. What's the nature of influencer marketing? How does it work? It's not the same as paid ads. And so if you want to be successful, you got to approach it with a creator, with an influencer mindset. And you mentioned this, you said this really well earlier, that when you go live on Amazon as an example, it gets better over time. The more people see your product, the more Amazon sees success, the more they're going to favor you and show you. I'm not a social media influencer, but I know the same is true on social media that the more we post consistently, the more we do things on social media, the better it's going to go. And sometimes things are going to really hit and take off, sometimes they won't. But yeah, you can't just have it, Hey, I did this, it should have this return. It's not as clear cut, but the benefits often do compound and you got to be patient and wait for those benefits. Love that, love that. Any other tips, ideas, strategies? What should Amazon sellers, and if someone's really, really interested in this, what should they do next? Where should they learn? Where should they go?

Gracey:

Yeah, so I mean there is thankfully so much more information and just education coming around this topic, which I love to see so much of what I love to do is just bridging the gap between creator and brand because I do know that there's a communication gap between both sides. So

Brett:

Influencers speak, influencer brands speak brand. Exactly. And they don't often connect with each other

Gracey:

And it should be mutually beneficial. Totally. That's the nature of it. And so I think if people want to get more involved with this or just start out and try and you don't have to put a huge budget behind it, that's always what I say. You don't have to throw thousands of dollars. You can start out with gifted campaigns, commission-based campaigns, start developing these relationships with influencers and then find people who it works with and then double down and then increase your budget over time. And I believe it should always be a slice of what you're doing with your brand's marketing. I don't think it's smart to fully depend on P P C fully depend on ads because I think there's an area of influence marketing that both of these things can't give. So I think everybody should start out, try, start small, learn as they go, and then increase once they start getting more experience with it and they will see all the benefits.

Brett:

I love it. And I really think this is for some brands, is going to be more of like an accelerant for other brands. This is core of what they do. But I totally agree with you. You can't be all P P C, right? And I'm a Google fan. I've been doing Google ads since the early two thousands, so love Google. But I would never recommend a brand only run paid search or Google Shopping or even Performance Max. I love YouTube, but I would never suggest you just do YouTube. All of these things work together. And so if I've got my strategies dialed in all the right places and then I've got influencer marketing cooking and I'm going on Amazon live, it can really help accelerate and spin that flywheel faster and get you where you want to go a little bit quicker. And so love that though. Start small, do commission based deals, do gift based deals, no reason to spend a fortune right out the gate. And so awesome, awesome stuff, Gracey right back, ladies and gentlemen. So Gracey, people should follow you online. They should pay attention to what you're doing because they can learn from it. So where can they find you? So at deal cheats on the Twitters and where else can they find you?

Gracey:

On X?

Brett:

On X? Yeah, exactly.

Gracey:

X on Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, Amazon, live everywhere. It is the same deal sheets. It's

Brett:

All deal sheets.

Gracey:

Okay. Yes, yes. Got it. And my email is contact@dealsheets.com,

Brett:

Contact@dealsheets.com. Don't abuse that. Ladies and gentlemen, Gracey is a very busy person, but if you got, so basically people have questions or whatever, they can reach out to you there.

Gracey:

Yes, yes. I'm open to questions and happy to help.

Brett:

Very gracious of you, Gracey. So with that, anything else you want to mention? Any fun fact, anything you are totally excited about right now could be related to this topic or not related to this topic?

Gracey:

Gosh, I don't know. I'm excited for the future of this industry. I'm excited to see more brands get involved with influencer marketing and that is what I'm excited about.

Brett:

Yeah, I am too. I think this is here to stay. It is not going anywhere. This is just fundamental, the way humans behave and shop and one kind of thing. One final thing, one final thought I'll put on here is, the other thing I love about this is I mentioned YouTube, big YouTube guy, we do a lot of scaling on YouTube for larger brands. What's really powerful is if you've got a collection of influencer videos that really are passionate and that resonate and that overcome objections and nail some sales points, if you get approval from the influencer, we can do a mashup. One of my favorite types of videos on YouTube is an influencer mashup or like a mashup for the beginning of a YouTube video and then kind of go into a product demo. But that's another way to leverage this. So use influencer marketing, it's going to pay dividends directly, but then if you get access to the footage, now teams like O M G or other agencies can help scale that on Facebook and on YouTube and on the places. And so lots of ways to leverage this content and to leverage this approach

Gracey:

That remind me of one last point I have. Yeah,

Brett:

Awesome. Please, if

Gracey:

You are a brand registered, obviously you have access to the brand referral bonus program as a seller. So you should definitely take advantage of that when working with creators because you can get so much more detailed tracking. And the way that you can have the creator use your attribution link is for the referral kickback that you get from Amazon, whatever that is, 10% depending on category. But you can then offer them that increased commission for whatever sales that they create from the attribution it. And then you benefit, they benefit, take

Brett:

Advantage, easier tracking. Yeah, you can use that to help fund or help pay for the influencer. So glad we stuck around for that tip, Gracey. That was a good one. So again, Gracey, thank you so much. Thanks for bringing the energy, super fun, super entertaining and really appreciate it.

Gracey:

Thank you Brett.

Brett:

And as always, thank you for tuning in and hey, we want to hear from you. I mentioned I'm on the socials, I'm not an influencer, but I am there. So check me out on LinkedIn. Lemme know what you'd like to see more of on the show. Let's connect outside of the podcast. Also leave us that review on iTunes. If you haven't done that, leave us. That five star review helps other people find the show. Makes my day. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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FREE RESOURCE: OMG's Ultimate Email Marketing Testing Checklist

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How can you triple your results from Email & SMS? Is crafting a single captivating subject line the key? Does discovering the ultimate promotion hold the answer? Likely not.

Making huge improvements is all about finding dozens of small wins, stacking them on top of each other, and letting the improvements compound.

In this episode, Nick Flint, our Email Strategist at OMG, breaks down 8 Email & SMS tests you need to run right now! We talk about how Email & SMS can improve EVERY other channel. We’re talking Google Ads, YouTube ads, Facebook, Amazon - ALL made better by leveraging Email & SMS.

Here’s a peek at what we cover.

• Why opt-in rate is NOT the key metric, you need to measure for your opt-in pop-up. (And why that spinning wheel might be doing more harm than good.)
• How making some prospects “work for it” can increase purchases and email engagement.
• Should you show your price in emails or make people click to see the price?
• How Everyday Cali used a creative “break our site” offer to drive engagement and get solid customer feedback.
• Plus, much, much more…

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Transcript

Nick:

One thing I want to emphasize here is don't just look at the number of signups that you get. A lot of people, they'll turn on that spin to win popup and they'll say, Hey, look, I'm converting 15% of site traffic to actually spin this wheel and give me their email. But a lot of those end up just being junk emails. Who thought they were going to get that a hundred percent off? That never actually hits.

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce. And today have we got a show for you. We're talking about email and SMS, both top tests you should be running. So some things we've learned recently, some of our top tests that we think you need to test as well. Plus, and I love this topic, how email can make every other channel better. So you're running YouTube ads, you're running Facebook ads, you're testing landing pages, you're doing stuff on Kickstarter, you're doing all kinds of other stuff. How can email and SS m s make all of that better? We're going to dive into it. And my guest today is the man, the myth, the legend, our resident email and s m s expert, but he's not just an email. And SMS expert, he's an e-commerce expert. My guest is Nick Flint from OMG So we get to hang out frequently, at least virtually we're in different cities, but Nick Flint, what's up man? How you doing? And welcome to the show.

Nick:

I'm doing good. How about

Brett:

You? Good, man. Yeah, I said we hang out, we live down the street from each other or something. You're all the way in Florida. I'm in Missouri. But I think you helped facilitate some of the virtual ways that OMG Commerce team members can hang out. And I think I could be wrong, we have a Slack channel for cat lovers. We have a slack channel for dog lovers. And did you create those or did somebody else create those?

Nick:

Someone else created them, but I am an active and avid member, and that came up because first my dog started barking when we were about to hit record. And then two, Brett is actually a kitten guy now. He got himself a cat. So I told him he has to hop in the OMG Cat Channel.

Brett:

I got to hop in that cat. Now what's the name of the cat channel? I think people will be entertained by this.

Nick:

We have cats are the best. And then for the dogs, it's dogs and their dogs. So the WG dogs and then the OG dog.

Brett:

Oh man, dogs and their dogs. What is up? So yeah, I would love to hear from listeners and you may be like, Hey, this topic is boring, don't worry, we're moving on. Although I think most people get into this topic, are you a cat person? Are you a dog person? Which is better. So what's interesting is that I like both, but I actually prefer other people own them and not me. However, I married an animal lover. I have eight kids, most of them love animals. So it's like a zoo around my house, not just because of the number of kids, but also animals. We just got a kitten, a kid's name is Lottie. I can't remember now why my daughter chose to name Lottie that way, but she's like at the cute stage where she's attacking everything and super small. And anyway, it's cute, but the cuteness only lasts so long. So which side of the fence do you land on, Nick? Are you cats are better? Are you more of a dog person? Are you equal opportunity? Well,

Nick:

It's hard to run with a cat. So I'm going dog side.

Brett:

Let's put a collar and leash on that cat and go for a jog. Does not work. Yeah, yeah, does not work. Awesome, man. So let's dive in. Let's talk emails. So I know you're always testing, you're a brilliant marketer. And actually just for those that haven't listened to the previous podcasts, give us your 62nd background. How'd you become an email marketing expert?

Nick:

So it kind of started off in the beginning of college, me and a couple of buddies we were into working out into supplements. So we thought there's this genius idea, we'll let people try supplements before they actually buy them. We were the kind of pioneers of the subscription box, but a few of the big ones beat us to it, like Ipsy and the other random subscription box company. So after a couple of years of doing that, we sold that off and I really just started doubling and tripling down on email and S M Ss marketing. I realized owning that company, doing all those different things, running the socials, product development, talking to suppliers, dealing with finances, that was the worst. And then email, s m s, I really just gravitated towards that. It fit my natural personality and my natural skills. So I just doubled, tripled down on that six years ago and been running ever since.

Brett:

Love it. And what's cool about you, Nick, is you know what it's like to build a brand. You know what it's like to run a brand, done it and you did it successfully, but yeah, your passion is email and s m s. And so I remember when Chris Brewer, business partner first said, you got to meet Nick Flint. This guy's awesome, we got to do whatever we can do to get him to join team O M G. Glad he identified you, glad you joined the team and love having you around. So let's talk about recent tests. I know you're always tinkering, always testing, always looking at results. You both have that creative side. You can write awesome subject lines and headlines and stuff like that, great copy, but you're also really obsess about the data. And so what are some of the most recent tests we've run and what have we learned?

Nick:

So when we're working on the different client accounts, there's a ton of tests that we're running on a regular basis. We're actually condensing some of our top tests into a guide slash checklist that the listeners here can download. There'll be 50 different tests that we run for our clients and today we're going to hop into some of my favorite ones and some of the most impactful ones.

Brett:

Yeah, so top 50 tests that'll be available on the website. We'll link to it in the show notes, go get that guide, give it to your email person. You review it, there's going to be some gold there, but let's highlight some of those right now. Alright,

Nick:

We'll kick it off with the initial popup on the site. So whenever someone comes through it, you can always put 10% off, offer a fixed dollar amount, or you have the spin to win. And one thing I want to emphasize here is don't just look at the number of signups that you get. A lot of people, they'll turn on that spin to win popup and they'll say, Hey look, I'm converting 15% of site traffic to actually spin this wheel and give me their email. But a lot of those end up just being junk emails. Who thought they were going to get that a hundred percent off? That never actually hits. So don't just have the test set up where you're saying, Hey look, here's the wheel and here is the 10% off offer. And then looking at how many people sign up for each one actually look at the flow and see how does the revenue look for each subscriber after they sign up?

Brett:

Yeah, it's so good looking at the metrics that matter, right? It's the same when you're looking at a video campaign, Facebook or YouTube or whatever. Views are cool. We want to look at views, but what we really care about is clicks and signups or conversions or how that impacts brand lift or one of those metrics. So looking at the right metrics. And one of the things that I love, one of my favorite marketing quotes is how you bring them in is how they behave. And sometimes I think a 10% off offer or small dollar amount offer, that's a good trade probably, right? They're giving you their email address, you got to give 'em something in return. So that seems like a fair trade, but you may just have people wanting that a hundred percent off offer. They would never be a good customer anyway. And so if you're just purely looking at the wrong numbers, you're being led as straight potentially. So love that. Also, by the way, what do you recommend? So what if someone's not into discounts? What do you recommend for that initial pop-up offer?

Nick:

I like going with a guide. Just kind of figure out if your people are on your site looking for something specific, what kind of guide can you tie in there as well? We've also done this with a couple of landing pages where if they're coming from Google or Facebook and there's already an offer on that ad that they clicked on, we don't want to hit them with a different offer when they get to the landing page. So we have a complimentary guide like, Hey, you came here for 10% off supplements because you saw it on Facebook and we're going to give you the top five workout plans to follow while you're here versus saying, Hey look, here's another 10% off pop-up.

Brett:

Perfect. So testing the initial pop-up offer, but not just for signups, but actually for how that flow generates revenue. Love that. What's our next test?

Nick:

Next up we got email versus email and phone number. This is kind of one of the things where you see that superficial value of your number of signups, but when we're looking in the account and we're saying, Hey, for our customers who give us their email and their phone number, they end up being a lot more active, they're placing a ton more orders. We can hit them on both those channels later on. So yes, you might have a lower signup percentage when you're asking for both their email and their phone number, but like you said, you're attracting the people that you want to attract when you ask for that. If they like your brand enough to give you both, they're going to be better long-term customers. So try asking for both and see what the initial percentage signup looks like, but then also long-term set a reminder to go back in through those flows or even go look at that cohort in Klaviyo and see what kind of value do they bring.

Brett:

Yeah, and I know there are different ways to look at L T V because that does depend on the amount of time you're looking at True lifetime or whether you're looking at 10 years, five years, 30 days, 60 days, whatever, 30 days would be too short. But I'm confident, and I'm curious if you had any numbers to support this or anecdotes to support this when someone gives you email and phone number. So email and ss m s, LTVs got to go up for that person. I mean in general, any thoughts, stats or anecdotes there?

Nick:

So you have a couple of things you can look at one in the Shopify dashboard, they'll have different cohorts where you can see, alright, if people ordered in October, how many of them came back in November, December, January? And the darker the color, the more frequently they come back. And when we've turned on the two step popup where we ask for both, we'll see those colors start to get a little bit darker in Shopify so people are coming back quicker and we'll just have the different groups laid out within Klaviyo. You can go to your metrics, look at that, and it'll tell you by customer segment what the average order value looks like and how often they're coming back. So you can look at those too.

Brett:

Nice, love it. So two step, does this work for most? Are we seeing most brands do email and s m s or does it vary depending on the brand?

Nick:

Kind of depends on the brand and who they're after. We have some more B2B focused brands that we work with and they're like, Hey, this guy's buying equipment for his office. He doesn't necessarily need to sign up for s m s because he's on his laptop all day anyway.

Brett:

Yep, makes sense. Alright, so we got initial popup, we got asking for email and phone number, what's our next test?

Nick:

Alright, we're going to make them work for it this time. You're going to try two different things here. You got your discount code displayed directly in the popup. So hey, give us your information and the success screen, you have two options. Either say, good job, you unlocked your code, here it is, go use it. Or make them actually go to their inbox and open up that first email. You have two trains of thought here. One, they're on the site. We want to just get their buying journey as fast as possible. Give 'em the code, get them to check out, and that works well for the impulse buys. But if you're a little more of a premium brand and people really want you, they're after you, you've set that reputation as being like, Hey look, we're the best. Come and get it. Then you can make them go to their inbox, go ahead and click on that first email, get their discount code in their inbox, and then they'll go back to the site and that'll help out with deliverability for that profile in the future because they actually took action on the first thing you sent them.

Brett:

Nice. So you're using that one. I think that kind of the more someone engages with your brand, I think the more likely they are to continue taking action. It's kind of one of those things that I remember hearing back in the catalog days of marketing pre-internet, when people would send out catalogs, they wanted to get you to interact with the catalog because once you started marketing in it, or if you added one item to your order form, you just start adding more, right? So there's this idea of once I get you to take action, you'll keep going down that path consistency. And so I like that engage with the email because now you're kind of clicking and working a little bit. You're probably going to continue down that path, but you bring up a really good point. That also means you're much more likely for that email to be delivered to that user later, right? Because they've clicked on it, they've opened it, they're indicating to their email service provider that, Hey, this is an email, this is a company who I want to get emails from.

Nick:

And you can get a little more granular with it too and use that initial email to your advantage. So if you're a clothing brand, you sell men's to women's clothing, they sign up the popup, you say, perfect, go to your inbox to get your discount. Now you can actually see which button they click on shop men's or Shop women's. You can go ahead and tag them in Klaviyo at that point saying, Hey look, they signed up, they got their discount and then right off the bat they clicked on the go shop. So we're going to mark them as interested in men's clothing. Nice. You can talk to them differently,

Brett:

Gets you a little more data about that person right away. But again, you got to kind of weigh it, right? Is this more of an impulse purchase and you may have too much drop off if you have them take extra steps or is it more of a premium and you want them to take extra steps? That actually increases the likelihood of conversion. So you got to measure it, you got to test it, which that's why we're saying it's one of the top tests. So alright, what do you got next?

Nick:

Showing prices on your campaigns versus making them go to the site and see them. I've seen this go both ways for different brands. Sometimes if we show the price and it's higher than they're expecting, they don't even click on the campaign at all. Sometimes if they don't know what the price is, we make 'em go to the site. Once they're there, they're like, all right, now I really want this. Now that I've read the description, I've seen the images on the site, I read some of the reviews. So practice hiding those prices versus actually showing them and see what the different clicks look like there.

Brett:

Yeah, I love this principle so much that we think about this a lot in terms of YouTube. So as an example, there's a certain type of YouTube ad where you can run product listing ads or shopping ads right by that YouTube video. And the thing about Google shopping ads or product listing ads is they show the price Now, same thing we've found to be true there. If the price is less than what people expected, where it's like, whoa, that's a really good value. Then showing the product, listing ads to a brand new customer maybe before they've watched very much of the video can really work. Right now they're watching the video and they're saying, oh, these prices are cheap. I want to learn more about it. Versus if it's a little more than what they anticipate, I like keeping that price for when they land on the site, let them watch all of the video and be sold by the video, then let them land on the site and be further sold and convinced and excited about the brand.

And so they overcome that price objection. And same principle here. If I look at the email, I just see a picture of the item, the shirt or whatever, and I don't get a lot of details about it, I may never click, but if you leave that out, I may click and then once I interact, I got to have it. So love that. Totally worth testing. And it's probably also worth testing maybe if someone's never purchased so they just opted into your new customer flow or something versus they've already bought for me a few times. In that case, maybe it's better to put the price in it. Right? Just got to test it. Sweet. What is our next test?

Nick:

Next up we got short versus long flows. And another one I've seen go different ways for different brands. So if we send out something like a welcome flow, whenever we hop into the account and we're testing out some new popups for them, we're just going to go ahead and ab split that into random segments. On the left side, we'll have a shorter flow, here's your discount, a reminder about your discount, get it last chance. It's going to expire in 24 hours. So something like a little three-step flow. And on the right we'll see that longer path. So a little bit more education here. So we're going to give 'em the discount, we're going to pull in some customer reviews, we're going to tell the brand story, we're going to highlight different features about the product. Hey, last call for your discount code. There's five different emails in there, so what ends up converting better? Just having that little short and sweet on the left side or on the right, if we talk about it more, do they need more handholding to get them to convert?

Brett:

Yeah. And are you finding something similar there where we talked about before impulse purchase versus long consideration cycle? If it's a higher price point, I'm really deliberating on it a little bit versus something that's just easy to purchase. Does that usually help dictate or inform long flow versus short flow or what have you seen there?

Nick:

It kind of depends on the product. Not as much on the price point. A lot of times they're kind of tied into each other. So if it's a higher price point product, there is more kind of back and forth comparison shopping, different brands around. But sometimes it's education based. So if it's something new and novel and people need to kind of understand what it is, you might want to have the longer flow in place to educate them on. One thing that kind of pops to mind that I've seen recently on TikTok a lot is the pop darts game. It's like a little darts and they're sticky and they land on the table, but it's not like a brand new invention, but it's a new thing that people kind of need to know and learn about versus something like a water bottle, what a water bottle is already, you don't need to be educated on it.

Brett:

Yeah, don't need a five-step sequence of education on what this water bottle will do for me. Yeah, totally makes sense. All right. How many tests do we have left here for the pod?

Nick:

We'll do two more on the pod and then they can hop in and see all 50 on the sheet. Next. What's next up can be your tiered discounts. So whenever you have some kind of promo or sale running, go ahead and same thing, split this off in two different groups and try it out for each side. We're going to have half of them that get look 20% off site-wide, come and get it while you can offer ends to the end of the weekend, whatever the specific sale or offer you have at the moment. And the other half, the AB test, we're going to have a tiered discount. So 10% off of a hundred, 20% off of 200, 30% off 300 and C. Does that actually end up having a higher average order value if you put the tier a little bit higher so they add a couple more things to their cart, was that worth it or should you stick to the fixed price from then on?

Brett:

Yeah, I really like it. I mean, I've been shopping, getting new polos and new tees lately. I like true classic. I built a few others that I like as well, but I've noticed where I add a couple shirts to the cart and then they're like, Hey, here's some boxers for this price. And then by the way, you get to 200 and then you get a mystery gift or a discount or whatever, and it's pretty enticing, right? I'm almost there. I'm getting there. I may as well add one or two more things to the cart and get that discount. So yeah. Any other specifics? Anything? Is there any reason not to just test both? I bet sometimes these tests surprise you as to which one wins.

Nick:

So I mean really I consider your own margins at that point. I use the numbers 10, 20 and 30 there just because they're kind of nice round numbers, but it could even be the same with 15% off 20 and then 25, you don't have to give away 30%, but just factor your own margins in and say, Hey look, if everyone bought 300 bucks at 30% off, would I still be making money there? Make sure you are and then you can test it.

Brett:

Yeah, man. And that's been one of the trends that I love seeing in e-commerce. And we faced some headwinds as an industry, increase cost of goods sold, increased cost of ads, economic just wildness, ups and downs, and some economic uncertainty for customers, consumer confidence kind of going up and down. And so you got to be profitable and I love that. That's the trend. E-commerce brands are seeking to be profitable now. It's not kind of the days of just grow at all costs and top line. We'll figure out the bottom line later. That's not a recipe for success. And so yeah, consider your margins, give some discounts, give some incentives, but consider your margins. Don't give away the farm. It's not worth it. So I love that. So tiered discounts versus standard discounts. What's our final test that we'll talk about here on the pod?

Nick:

Last one we'll go with is content versus product push. So if you have a product you want to sell, try out some different emails here, try out just talking about the product versus some content behind it and then tying that into the product.

Brett:

Nice. Yeah. And what have we seen here? Any examples or details here? So

Nick:

Fitness brands is always an easy one to talk about. So hey look, here's this pre-workout, it's got these six ingredients in it, it'll boost your workouts and these specific ways, come and get it now. Versus hey, here's this new workout we developed for chest day. It's going to give you a huge chest, it's going to increase your bench. And by the way, take this pre-workout before you go hit the gym because it'll help out with this workout we just gave you.

Brett:

Love it. Yeah, fitness brands are really a natural fit for this. I think supplement brands are too. I've been taking beef organs supplements recently, had a couple of buddies recommend it, started reading about it. And this particular brand that I started ordering from their emails are awesome. They're really engaging. They talk about some stuff you didn't know about. Meat-based products actually are very, very nutrient dense. So yeah, it's just been, I find myself reading every email they send and then there's always content talks about the product too, but there's always content. Again, I think this probably depends a little bit on what you're selling, but I think this works also for apparel, right? Sometimes apparel, it's like, hey, this is the summertime shirt and here's why it's great. It's four-way stretch and it's breathable and it's likable and all these things. So got to test it.

Alright, awesome. So that was just a taste and Nick Flint, that was just a handful. That was just a few people got their money's worth for the podcast just by hearing those. But we got 50, I say you wrote them, not me, but 50 email and SMS tests, go to MG commerce.com, grab that, we'll link to it in the show notes as well. But also, I'll just plug this right here, Nick. If someone's listening and they're like, man, I would benefit from someone like Nick Flint running my email and SS m s or helping out with it. You do audit accounts, right? You are willing to get in and give some feedback on someone's email and SS M SS campaigns, we do that for our clients and we could do that for others as well. And so anything you want to say about that?

Nick:

Yeah, so a lot of times when I'm hopping into an account and looking at your current setup, how many campaigns are going out, what do your flows look like, where are your popups being run? I'll be able to give you 3, 4, 5 quick bullet points that are kind of the heavy lift. So I'm not saying, Hey, here's a 20 page P D F of what I found. Read through this, give me a synapsis and then I'll give you some advice from there. Hey look, these are five things that we would do if we hopped into your account. You can also implement them if you'd like. So whenever we do those audits, they come away with some actionable items, not just some random metrics. We pull out

Brett:

Actionable, not just audits to make your current person look bad or to make you feel guilty or inadequate, which that's where a lot of audits go, whether it's an audit on your Facebook account, Google account, email accounts, most agencies play the game of let's make you feel bad, let's make the current person doing this look bad and let's give you some anxiety. If you don't go with us, sometimes you got to just say it like it is and sometimes it's a mess. But yeah, we'll give you the 80 20 of what it's going to take to be successful with email or go to the next level with email for your brand. So hit us up, omg commerce.com. Would love to chat. Let's talk about other channels. So we got some things to test to improve email and sms, but one of the things I love about email and S M Ss is it makes everything else better. Facebook, YouTube, landing pages, stuff you're doing on a Kickstarter or whatever makes it all better if you're strategic with it. So what are your thoughts on what are ways we can leverage or improve or enhance other efforts through email and SS m Ss?

Nick:

So a lot of times when people think about email, they think about how can I get sales on my site directly from email? I want to set up some flows, I want to set up some campaigns. I want people to go from there to my product page to check out and then they're done. But I think you can build up this engage list, this audience that likes hearing from you and leverage them on other channels as well, like Google or Facebook or Amazon.

Brett:

So what does that look like? Give us some specific ideas. How can we pair email with some of these other channels?

Nick:

So you start off with your engaged audience and you say, all right, what could I do with them to help boost my other channel? Since marketing's not just these individual silos, they should be working together in sync. So one big thing is pretty easy to get up and running would be asking for product ideas and feedback from the customers themselves. So hey, we're launching a new pre-workout. Should we do cherry or raspberry? And just ask 'em to either respond directly in that email, then you're getting the deliverability boost from people responding to you, or you can go ahead and have two buttons, click on, click here for cherry, click here for raspberry. And then you can see, alright, who voted for cherry? So when that product drops later on, you can go send an email to those 500,000 people who all said they wanted cherry. Say, Hey Nick, thanks for picking Cherry. We went ahead and took your advice and we just launched that. Here you

Brett:

Go. Or you can send it to everybody else that voted for the other flavor and be like, Hey, sorry it didn't win, but here's $5 off. We think you'll love Cherry too, or something like that. You could have fun with it even on the people that didn't vote for it. But I do love that email is not just for one way communication and getting people to buy stuff. And it's not just for educating people, it's for educating you. It's for using that as a feedback loop, as a feedback mechanism to know what product to launch. What do you not like about the brand and love that. Very smart. I think there's not enough people using email that way. Give us another idea.

Nick:

So if you have an reviews integration set up that links in with Klaviyo, something like Shopify reviews or stamped, you can see who has left you a four or five star review and who was happy with you. And this is kind of top of mind for me because we had a brand that didn't have great reviews on, it was like three, four years ago during Covid or something, shipments were delayed and their Trustpilot score was like two stars but only had 15 reviews. And on their site they had hundreds of four and five star reviews. So what we did is we took that audience saying, Hey look, these people, they like us. They told us they like us. So we've sent an email saying, Hey, if you love our products qa, leave us review on Trustpilot as well. We made sure we didn't violate any of Trustpilot little random rules like incentivizing. There was no incentives there. This is all organic. And people who liked our product, they also went over to Trustpilot to talk about it. And now when people search for that brand on Google, they'll see a good score there. So that could be helping out with other sales channels too.

Brett:

Yeah, love that. Asking for reviews. What about some ideas for Amazon? So we've got a thriving Amazon department at O M G. We help sellers and brands grow on Amazon, but how can we leverage email? We're trying to launch on Amazon or if we're just trying to improve on Amazon, what are your tips there?

Nick:

So this is kind of a full company strategy. If you want to have both an Amazon channel that's thriving and your own D two C site, you have to have balance between the two of them. I know a lot of people, they prefer people shopping on their regular site, they could see their information, they can go ahead and retarget them later. They really own that customer versus saying 'em to Amazon. But Amazon's a huge powerful channel too. So if you're company that has both channels up and running and you launch something new on Amazon, go ahead and use your existing list to send people there to really make that launch successful and help it skyrocket in Amazon rankings for your categories.

Brett:

And that's a little bit risky. You may want people to purchase from your store better margins there potentially. So sending customers to Amazon can feel a little bit risky, but most shoppers are considering Amazon anyway and there's a lot of benefits to getting that initial acceleration of sales on Amazon. It's going to help your ranking, going to help your momentum, just like Nick said. So I think it makes sense. I think for most brands, if they're established and they've got a thriving D two C business and they've got a good email list and then they launch on Amazon, we usually want to hit that list at least part of that list. Hey, consider purchasing on Amazon, consider reviewing on Amazon. And that can help you get launched much faster on Amazon. What about something, what about something like Kickstarter, Nick? How have we seen clients use email and Kickstarter together?

Nick:

Exact same setup there. Just like you would have a product launch on Amazon. So you have a Kickstarter campaign getting ready, you're doing all the work for it, you have your goal set that's probably undershot, so you make sure you hit your goal whenever that actually goes live. I know Kickstarter, I forgot it's 24 or 48 hours. They want you to hit your funding goal in that amount of time and then you make it on their main page. So if you grow that email list and you have a new product launching on Kickstarter, you send all your email subscribers there, go buy it, you hit that target goal of your revenue for that Kickstarter campaign, boom, you're on the front page of Kickstarter and it'll help accelerate the sales there.

Brett:

Awesome. Love it. What are some other little tips? I want to get into Google and Facebook and some other things, but what are just some other tips? How can we utilize email to get marketing assets or to get other things we need to make our marketing better?

Nick:

I mean, U G C seems to be a pretty big hot topic these days. You want people with your product gc

Brett:

Love it.

Nick:

I've seen full agencies pop up of just getting people U G C from people wrapping their products, just

Brett:

U G C agencies. Yeah, and I mean it works, right? U G C works for YouTube, works for Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and really anywhere you have online video, U G C, real U G C, good U G C compelling and authentic U G C. Very powerful and I think that's going to be true forever. So what are we doing then with email to help us get U G C

Nick:

So we can have a post-purchase flow whenever that product comes in. There's some apps like wonderment that can actually track product delivered and follow up with like, Hey, hey, if you want to shoot us a picture of you in your new shirt, you out there skateboarding with a new skateboard, you ride in your new e-bike, then send it on over to here. Some people set up a specific section of their site to push them to, and you can actually have that call to action to, Hey, send us a picture of you rocking your new thing and we'll shout you out on Instagram or whatever that reward may be. Love

Brett:

It. Awesome. What are a couple other ideas to use email and then we'll get into some specific other channels.

Nick:

So one thing about me that my wife doesn't love is I like to do things the cheap way. At least at first. If I can find a cheap fix for something, I'll try that out before paying the professional to do it. All right,

Brett:

So is your wife like let's just pay for it, let's get it done right the first time. Is that kind of her mo?

Nick:

Yep. And I'm more the, I'll think about it for a week, I'll YouTube it, I'll try the cheap fix and that's probably why my fans still clicks and why I have it off right now.

Brett:

Yeah, so I get that. I can see from both angles. I don't really fix things. I'm not like a fixer of stuff breaks around the house, I got to call somebody, but I get that. I like the frugal aspect, but I bet your wife just gets stuff done faster in terms of it's fixed and it's working.

Nick:

Yeah, she does. But if you're frugal minded like me and you're concerned about the bottom dollar for your company, how you were saying earlier, brands are more focused on profits now, not just revenue should be. Yeah, I love using email as that cheap touch point, that cheap little point of contact with your customers. And then let's say you have a product launch coming out, shoot out a couple of emails talking about it, people who didn't convert, alright, try out the SMSs. They're a little bit more expensive to send, but that's the next touch point. Try out a couple SMSs, a couple more emails, and then you can resort to something like postcards, which are more expensive to send, but it's that higher touch point because it's showing up in their inbox. So email can be the cheap option before you hop over to SMSs and then you can go to postcards from there.

Brett:

Love it. And we've seen a lot of good success obviously from S M S, but also postcards as well. Shout out to post pilots and the crew over there. Full disclosure, I'm an investor in post pilot, but that doesn't mean that my belief in it is not. I think that just underscores my belief in it. But postcards can work great as well. Make that part of your flows. So let's talk about Google ads for a little bit. I'm a Google guy, love Google Ads, been running Google ads since early two thousands. How can we use email to make Google ads better? Yeah, how can we do that?

Nick:

So the first you can do is set up a good back and forth structure and open conversation between whoever's running your email and whoever's running your Google account. Luckily at OMG Commerce, we do both of those for a lot of our clients. So we have that internal communication like, Hey, what's working on your side? Here's what I'm seeing over there. But if you don't have that going back and forth, maybe you have two freelancers doing it, maybe one employee is doing it over here and one's doing it at home, make sure you have that back and forth communication. And once that's set up, you can kind of help each other learn from what each person is doing. If I'm noticing that a specific landing page is working really well for emails, so the brand gave me four landing pages to send people to, I noticed that one's really taking off. I'm going to go let our Google accounts know that, hey, look, try this landing page out over here. I've seen a lot of success with it through email.

Brett:

Love that. And you know what you may find is, okay, this landing page is converting well from email. That might not be the best landing page for top of funnel YouTube, but it may be the best for remarketing display campaigns or remarketing discovery campaigns on Google. And so I love that getting that dialogue going of here's what we're seeing with these landing pages, these are the audiences or the flows where it's converting. How can you use that to make your campaigns better for these channels? Because yeah, what's converting well on email, it's probably going to convert well with Facebook retargeting as well and with Google and Google Display network and discovery remarketing. And so yeah, get that dialogue going between those channels. What about on Facebook? So how can we leverage email and Facebook together?

Nick:

So you kind of have a similar setup, but now it's with ads or specific videos that they're running on Facebook so we can kind of notice things super fast on Facebook. So one of the accounts we work on, they have a different agency doing their Facebook account and we have that same back and forth communication where we're sharing insights, Hey, it's what we're learning over here. And they do the exact same thing over there. And they noticed that this one ad was just taken off way more than the other ones they were testing. So they passed along those assets and said, Hey, definitely try these out because people who are seeing this ad, they're seeing this ad on Facebook, they're seeing what we initially showed them, we also want to make sure they're seeing them within email.

Brett:

Nice. And was that the partnership with Smart Marketer and l I think the nail polish brand or was the Skittle?

Nick:

That's the one, yep. So basically the manicure that had five different colors on the nail polish was performing well. So we're trying that in emails now too, saying, hey, if people would, they rather see five different colors on the nails or just a full green set. And they notice that on Facebook it's converting really well. So now we're testing that out on emails too.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that so much. And that's one of those where man, just good images or good videos, if they convert on one channel, they'll probably convert on another. They at least need to be tested. And so yeah, that's a really cool and compelling image, like five different colors of nail polish on someone's hand. If that's working well on Facebook, let's try it on Google Display network, let's try it inside an email. It's likely to boost conversions there as well. And what's so cool about this, Nick, is as we start stacking all these little improvements, you start testing all those 50 things we talk about in the guide to improve performance, improve opt-ins and all that, you start making these little improvements in 50 different areas that compounds and that makes a big overall difference. Then you start looking at, hey, well what learnings can we take from these other channels and apply to email and what learnings can take from email and apply to these other channels? Now you're talking about another set of compounding and acceleration and after the course of a few months or several months, you could be talking about some real material improvements in performance. So love that. What about landing pages? What do you thought? You already talked about landing pages a little bit, but maybe is there another point you had on landing pages?

Nick:

And like you said, Hal, it's not just the top of funnel versus bottom funnel here. What always works on one channel is not necessarily going to work on the other, but you should be definitely looking at which landing pages you're using, you're setting traffic to, and at what point in the funnel should they be connecting with those pages.

Brett:

Nice. Cool. What about, see a note here for product leads or for mystery products? Talk about that. What's that idea?

Nick:

So one of the hardest things for a brand to do is to get people to make their first purchase on the site. They've seen some reviews, they might follow you on social. There's been brands that I've been following for probably years I haven't bought anything from. I just haven't seen that thing to spark my interest to actually make me go ahead and place an order on the site. So we'll test out a bunch of different small lead gen type offers through email. It might be something like free shoelaces with shoes. It might be buy one water bottle, get one free. It might be an exclusive flavor drop that's coming up. And we'll see the different lists. We'll have it split off between people who have never purchased from us before and people who have purchased from us before. So that same offer of free shoe laces for if you order a pair of shoes, which I mean hopefully they come with laces already, but this is a bonus pair.

We'll call it a bonus pair. And hey look, when we send it to non purchases, they didn't really get excited about that, they didn't really take us up on that offer. But if it was a new flavor drop and we had that campaign split off between purchasers and non purchasers, all the people who have been holding out for this long, they all hopped on that and actually placed their first order. We're going to share that with the brand saying, Hey, look, when we talked about your new flavor, that was a great lead magnet. So start using that for some of your lead magnets on other platforms too. Yeah,

Brett:

I love it. And you'd mentioned one of our clients that does mystery gifts, which I love the idea of mystery gifts and one of our longtime friends Groove Life silicone wedding rings, I bought several over the years, they're friends of mine and I remember one time I went to purchase and they're like, Hey, buy this and you get a free mystery gift. Now I'm a pretty smart marketer, I know what's going on. My guest was okay, this is probably unsold inventory that they're wanting to get rid of. But I was like, I trust these guys, I like this product. So I clicked, I bought it, my mystery gift was like a thin bezel, pink ring silicone ring. So it's like, dude, I got something for breast cancer awareness month. I got something if I'm rocking like a Hawaiian shirt or Miami style shirt, it's a pretty cool ring, but it got me. And I do wonder something like a mystery gift that may work better for your existing customers, getting them to buy again rather than a brand new customer who doesn't maybe have the trust in the relationship yet. But test things like that and see what the impact is. Love it. Awesome. So I think you had one more idea or maybe multiple if I skip something, but talk about other ways we can kind of tie in email and our Amazon business.

Nick:

So one of our brands actually got really creative. I've given all the credit to them for this one. It was a California, they have some really cool California gear and merch. Cali,

Brett:

Shout out to Chris Lynch and the gang, one of the coolest brands. If you're ever in La Jolla, California, just north of San Diego, do a kayak tour in La Jolla shores, then buy some of their rad gear, which is, I know what we're helping with on the email side. So yeah,

Nick:

Go ahead. And their campaign idea was they had a developer build a new site. They've been working on it for months. They did their own QA testing and they got it live and they sent an email out their list saying, Hey, if you can go break our site, then we'll give you a 50% discount code. So they saw a ton of people going over, they're all clicking the links, try and get some 4 0 4 error where they're try and get some product page to display weird. So they could have spent a couple more months testing every little thing on the site, or they could have had something broken that they didn't know about that should have been addressed sooner. And they had their email list go ahead and tackle the site and click through everything. And they use that for their new website launch to see if they could break anything on there.

Brett:

I love it. And what's so cool, and you may or may not know this, but did that lead to sales from those that were on the site trying to break it? Did some of those people purchase? I'm sure they did.

Nick:

So they gave them a 20% off discount. Like, Hey, if you try to break it, you can't let us know. We'll give you 20% off. The good and bad thing here was the developer did a pretty good job on their new site if there wasn't too many broken things. So they got some sales from the people reaching out saying, Hey, I'd spent 30 minutes, I couldn't find anything. And then in that case they would give 'em like, all right, thanks for trying, here's a little bit higher of a discount. But they did get some sales, but there wasn't that many broken things on the site.

Brett:

I love that so much. Yeah, just a creative way to get interaction. And then once you've, now I'm motivated, now I want to click around on the site for maybe 10, 15 minutes and try to find something where it's broken. Even if I don't, I probably found something that caught my eye and I like the 20% discount, one of the 50, but I may go with the 20. It's really interesting. That reminds me of this ad, this campaign that Joseph Sugarman wrote a book called Triggers. If you've never read the book triggers, it's awesome. Joseph Sugarman was the guy behind the blue blockers sunglasses, but also a lot of other products that if you were alive in the eighties and nineties, like you would've noticed. But he ran this ad for something like a thermostat, I don't know, it was a more expensive product, a couple hundred bucks and basically said, this ad has seven typos in it for everyone you find take $10 off the price and this is when you mailed stuff in. But anyway, he heard from people saying, I spent two hours staring at this ad trying to find all the spelling errors. And so it's like these creative ways to get people to engage with your site or your marketing or your ads, it can make a difference because once you get someone's attention, they're really spending time with you, their likelihood of purchasing goes way, way up. Really good stuff. Nick Flint, did I miss anything or did we miss anything on the leveraging email for other channels?

Nick:

Yeah, I can pull one more out for you. So a lot of times customers like hearing from other customers, not just the brand. People are going to say how great their product is all day long, but they want to hear from people like them. It's a lot of times email marketers, they'll hop on your Shopify store, they'll scroll down the product page and see how many reviews are there, make sure you're also checking your Amazon listing for reviews. We've seen brands that have ton of reviews on Amazon, not as many on the Shopify stores. So go ahead and hop on over to Amazon, check out those reviews too and see if there's anything good you can pull out for the email campaigns. Same thing with Facebook or even maybe Google reviews. So make sure you're not just looking at one spot for reviews. Look at the whole ecosystem where people can find you and then you're probably going to cherry pick the best ones from there.

Brett:

Nick Flint, ladies and gentlemen, Nick, you crushed it. As always, love those tests. Love the ways to make email and all our other channels better. So much appreciated. Hopefully we'll get lots of people downloading that guide and also a lot of people reaching out wanting that email audit.

Nick:

And if you find a typo in the guide, we'll give you a free email audit.

Brett:

I love that. Yeah, look for a typo in the guide. We'll give you a free audit. Plus maybe something else for free. So look for those typos. Well played. Nicklin well played. Awesome. Well as always, thank you for tuning in. We would love to hear from you. Hey, connect with me on the socials. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn these days, so hit me up there. Or the other social platforms, I'm kind of hit or miss, but I am there some YouTube shorts, I'm pretty active there. And on YouTube got clips from the pod on YouTube, so go check that out as well. And so with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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Tomer is a speaker, an Amazon Seller, the host of the Top Dog community, and the author of "Ride the Amazon Wave." We recently met when we both spoke at SellerCon in Austin.

Tomer has a unique approach to getting 5-star reviews and scaling sales on Amazon. No, this does not include buying reviews, begging for reviews, or doing anything that toes the line of Amazon's TOS. 

He is all about surprise and delight. And I couldn't agree more! I learned things from Tomer about reviews that I haven't heard ANYWHERE else…and I've been doing this for a while. 

Here's a look at what we cover:

• Why the raw number of 5-star reviews for you or your competitors isn't what matters most, and how to shift your focus to the 5-star review RATE instead.
• Why 4-star reviews hurt your listings.
• 5 keys to a 6-star experience on Amazon that you probably have yet to think of.
• Creative ways to delight customers without spending more. 
• Why offending some customers can be a good thing.
• Thinking about every element of your product as an "experience."

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Transcript:

Brett:

Well hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMGCommerce, and today we're talking about building a six star experience on Amazon and we're getting into why reviews matter, but we're going to look at this from an angle that I bet you have not looked at before because it's not just about five star reviews. We've got to do more than that. There's more to it than that. And so we're going to dive in here. My guest today is Tomer Rabinovich. We've met each other at Seller Con this year in Austin, Texas. We were both speaking, I was blown away by his presentation. I said, Tomer, you got to get on the podcast. And he said Yes. And so Tomer, how you doing man? Welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time.

Tomer:

I'm good, Brett. Thank you for me.

Brett:

And I do want to just point out just to underscore what a cool guy you are for me here in the States, but it's pretty late for you. So what time are you recording right now?

Tomer:

I'm in Israel and it's 10:15 PM here, but usually I have more calls after this, so I'm good to go.

Brett:

You're good. So you're ready to rock and roll. I feel the energy, I feel the excitement. So we're at a rock and roll. So Tomer is the founder of Top Dog and he offers consulting. He's got an e-commerce group community, which we'll get into a little bit. And then also a product that's about to launch, which I think everybody will want to learn about as well. And so Tor, if you would kind of give us your background, how did you become a top dog? How did you get into this space? And then we're going to get into our review topic.

Tomer:

Yeah, so you mentioned seller con. So I actually started with those guys back in 2014. I did of course, started selling in 2015 on Amazon. Been doing that for eight years now and been consulting mainly bigger sellers, 70 figure sellers, aggregators, different companies for the past five years probably. I've been speaking at pretty much every major event in the industry, so staying busy. And I also have my own event called TopDog Summit, which is also a big event for a small event for bigger sellers. And also wrote a book called Ride the Amazon Wave, which is right here. So

Brett:

There it is, ride the Amazon Wave. Love the cover design by the way. Love the book and kudos to you, man. That's a huge accomplishment. I know writing a book is building a business all on its own. It's a massive,

Tomer:

Most challenging product I launched so far.

Brett:

So no, it's out and we'll probably direct you, make you the least amount of money indirectly. Very, very powerful. But directly, yeah, we'll not compare to some of your other Amazon products I'm sure, but awesome book, awesome accomplishment. I know everybody knows you. You're speaking at all the Amazon events and so yeah man, really excited to dive into this topic. So talk about five star reviews and how they lead to rankings and why it's not just about the total number of five star reviews you have. Enlighten us please.

Tomer:

Yeah, so if you think about Amazon, Amazon wants to show the products on top that's rewarding on top that are actually selling the most, but that are also doing serving their customers. So that means the customers are actually leaving five star reviews for those products. So it only makes sense that if I'm selling a water bottle and you're selling a water bottle and I get more reviews than you based on every a hundred sales that each of us is making, I will rank higher than you long-term. If you start at the same time, I'll rank higher than you. Now if you already have a thousand new reviews and I have zero, it might be a bit more difficult. But what Amazon is doing is they're rewarding sellers by getting more five star reviews on an ongoing basis. And we've seen this time and time again what we help a seller customize or let's say adjust their customer experience for their product and they just skyrocket in terms of ranking almost overnight when they start accumulating the reviews or if you see that S P V button on Amazon that you can just start using. When we see sales that don't use that and then they start using it, they just take off in terms of ranking as well. They just fail a lot more reviews.

So one of the reasons to keep getting five star reviews is for ranking. And it doesn't matter if you have, maybe you think, oh, I got to a thousand reviews or 10,000 reviews or whatever and I can stop getting reviews, but that's not the case because your ranking will drop. We had a seller that had this gray hat strategy you can call it, where she was sending postcards to her customers from Amazon to get five star reviews from them asking nicely, not incentivizing them in any way, but that's obviously against Amazon terms of service. She got two thousands of reviews decided to stop and her ranking tanked as a result. So I mean

Brett:

Because she was getting a really high percentage of five star reviews by sending in that postcard, once she stopped that maybe the experience just wasn't good enough on its own. So she started getting a lower percentage of people leaving a five star review and that the rankings, so

Tomer:

What everyone can do right now in their niche is they can just go into Amazon and just look at all their competitors on page one, see how many reviews they got in the past 30 days, how many sales they got in the past 30 days, divide one by the other and we call that review percentage. And then you want to see where you stand compared to them. And if you see someone, let's say you're at 4%, they're at 8% and it changes between each product because some products are more, they get just more reviews by nature. Let's say you sell disposable cups, that's not going to get a lot of reviews probably, but if you sell a diaper bag, which is a very personal product, that might get a lot more expensive product to get more, just depends on the product. So if you see that a seller has a very high review rate, you can look at their reviews and see what people are mentioning, obviously buy their product, kind of reverse engineer what they're doing and so on.

Brett:

Yeah, that's so good. And so then what tools are you recommending to see how many sales reviews have come in in the last 30 days?

Tomer:

The easiest tool to use is Helium 10. If you use Helium 10 x-ray, that will just show you the snapshot of the last 30 day sales and then you'll see how many reviews they actually got in the last 30 days. You can just double that to a CSV file, add one more column with a very basic formula to divide one by the other. And that's it.

Brett:

Super simple. And so it's not so much that there's this certain magic percentage of five star reviews to sales, but it's more of a relative scale. So are you getting more five star reviews for every 100 sales as compared to your competitors?

Tomer:

Exactly. And he'll intend, the problem is you only see how many reviews they got. You just see a number. So if they got a hundred reviews in past three days, that doesn't mean much to me because maybe they sold a hundred thousand units. So it just depends.

Brett:

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, very, very cool. And so this is something, let's say that we're new with a product and we're going up against a product that's got a thousand reviews already. If our review rate is way higher than theirs, are you saying we could challenge them rank equal to them in a relatively short period of time? You're talking a few months I guess, and I know everything is different, but

Tomer:

It depends on different factories as well, but definitely you can, if you think about it long term, you can win. You can win over in terms of reviews over them as well, not necessarily if you even sell more units than them for a long period of time. So that's another reason you want to look into this, but sellers tend to think, I just launched my product, how do I get reviews? That's how they think. But to get reviews actually happens long before they launch their products. They need to plan ahead. How am I going to get reviews when they do their power development process and not after the fact that they launched because you can kind of fake reviews or whatever. There are different ways to do that with shady services, black tactics, whatever. But those can only get used so far these days to get a bunch of reviews. But that's not a long-term strategy. So you need to get five star reviews from real customers buying your product of an Amazon.

Brett:

Yeah, it's the only way to make that work because even if you go gray hat, just like you talked about, and even if you don't get caught and Amazon never finds out, once you stop that and your review rate drops, you're in trouble and your rankings will suffer. Let's talk about, and that was a perfect segue by the way that hey, getting reviews starts way before you start trying to get reviews actively. So I know that begins with that experience and you talk about this like a six or you call it a six star experience. What is that and why should we shoot for that?

Tomer:

Yeah, so if you think about reviews for a second, you can only get 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 stars and anything that is not a five star review hurts you. Even a four star review brings you closer to four than 4.5 or five. So we only accept as sellers, we only accept five star reviews for our products. So because of that, if we aim for a five star product, we might land at four or three or two stars, but if I aim for six, I landed at five. So it's kind of aiming for the moon and landing amongst stars. That's kind of what we are trying to do with this six star experience strategy you can call it. But it's really, we call it over deliver and surprise the customers as much more than they expect. And usually when you buy a product, it doesn't matter what it is. If you look at the McDonald's commercial, the burger can look really good when you get it, it's not that good. So advertising usually falls the other way around. But when you think about selling a product and you want to get a five star view for it, you want it to be in a way where you advertise in a way, but when they get the product, they actually get more than they thought they will and that's

Brett:

What we need. Got it. Yeah, I love that. So when they get it, there's some element of surprise of the light, some element of, wow, this is better than I thought. Yeah, because the flip side of that is a big deal. I know we've got a client, and I won't mention the product, but it's a very effective product, but for whatever reason, when you look at the pictures, you think this is kind of a large product, but when you get it, it's kind of small or it's smaller than you would expect. And so people look at that and they got complaints like, Hey, this isn't the size of product that I thought it was. It still works. And so they had to start shifting the photography where they would show the product in someone's hand. So surprises, you know what you're buying right then. And so yeah, totally makes sense. You want to,

Tomer:

Yeah, and because we're doing e-commerce, you don't really know what to expect. You can read reviews, you can kind of see what's going on in my talk. So I kind of mentioned a roller coaster. When you look at a roller coaster, you don't know what they're feeling, right? You can see them screaming, you can see whatever. You can see them coming down the line when you go up, they're roller across the street. You can see them coming down asking them questions, how was it? Whatever people throw up, people enjoy. You don't know what's going to happen when you go up. You don't know what to expect. It's kind of the same way when you buy a product online, you don't know what's going to happen when you actually get it and use it, but if it's more than you thought, that gives you an edge as a seller by that type of experience. And I think we are in 2023 right now. This is the time to really do that. And the bar to entry in customer experience is so low right now because people don't expect it to be better than they thought. They only expect it's going to be worse than they thought. So there is so much opportunity.

Brett:

Yeah, love it. Yeah, it is wide open for someone to do just a good job and then if you do better than that, it's all the better. And I love this approach of aiming for six stars to try to hit five and for the moon. Then among the stars type of thing, have you ever heard Brian Chesky from Airbnb, have you heard him talk about how Airbnb hosts should kind of craft their experiences to wow guests? It's a very similar concept. He uses a different scale. He's like, Hey, what would a 10 star experience be like? And he is like, well, if you knew the person's favorite band and that band was at the house when they showed up and all these outlandish things, and obviously you can't do that, but you start there with your thought process and then back down to, well, what could we do? How could we

Tomer:

Personalize

Brett:

Do that

Tomer:

For 1% of your customers? So one thing with your experience is you don't, not everyone need to have an equal experience. I'm like, let's say we have a crazy idea for an insert. There are insert cards now with videos in them and a whole bunch of stuff. Let's say you do that for 5% of your insert cards, invest two, 3000, really good insert, but only for 5%. If that doesn't work, you need to change strategies completely. If that does work, then you can start dialing it down for cheaper things. But I'm like, let's start with the most expensive thing we can do. Let's go nuts with this. If this doesn't work, we need to change strategies. But if you start small, if you, let's say put an insert that says get 20% off on our store, that's not going to do anything, right? 20% off is a gift. It's a gift to you, not to the customer. So that will probably not work. That is just to have a check mark that you have an insert card and whatever, but that doesn't really do much. And if that doesn't work, it's going to take you a long time to figure that out that you need to change strategies and find something more appealing to the customer.

Brett:

Interesting. So I want to kind of break down the six store experience in just a minute, but now you mentioned in search and you've got my curiosity peaked. So what might you do there? If you do a high cost insert, test it on 5% of orders, what's something wild or crazy you would potentially do there?

Tomer:

So it can be even an instructional video inside of that video. So instead of sending to a lake or a QR code to scan, and you can test that in a different insert and just different things and see what people do they watch more, what do they click on more, what actually works better? And then at the end of the video you can have a magnet to something else to kind of go fill out the form or something like that. So you see how many people actually fill out the form as a result of that compared to sending them directly to the video on your website and see how many people fill the form there and then you can kind of see which works better. Any considerations there to avoid T O ts violations? Yeah, definitely.

We don't want to valids in any way, and the way we do it is do it. We always do a very soft thing and we always think about the customer first. What I mean by that is let's say I want to send it to watch an instructional video. I'm not going to send you to put in your email name an email to watch a video because I can just send you to the video. But if it's a warranty for example, then I can ask for the name an email because I have a justification for that. So it just depends on what it is that I can offer. We don't offer eBooks, we don't offer discounts, we never ask for reviews in our inserts either. You can, by the way, you are allowed to ask for reviews as long as it's unbiased and whatever. But I just think that asking for reviewing your insert is kind of like the waitress coming up to you and saying, how's the foot before you had your first bite?

Right? It's kind of like that. Yeah, so we never do that on what, what a good analogy. Once you have their email, you can always follow up asking for a review, but in our case, that's not even the main way we get reviews. So maybe I'll give you an example of a product and that give you something you can think about. So we were wanted to sell the slack picking set. Basically I said, it teaches you how to lock, how to break into houses. And that set while we were producing it, it became a prohibited product to be sold in Amazon us. Imagine that. So I ended up showing exactly what we wanted to do and the idea was this, everyone was selling these kits. It comes in a small case with all the tools inside and instructions and stuff, and it comes in either a regular brown box or just even a color box of the case.

And what we came up with the idea of making the box black all around and it has a small lock in the front and when you open up, so with black hole around it looks like a deposit box, we made it look like a deposit box and then on the bottom we had made in China and all of the stuff that we need to have on our packaging, but because of the e-commerce, we could do whatever. We can make a very cool looking packaging. So it was black all around small lock in the front. When you open up it from the lock side, you have a small note inside it says congrats, you've just picked your first lock. And that's person they see that puts a smile on their face and a smile goes a long way. Doesn't need to costume more necessarily. We had some funny mentions inside of the flap when they open up the packaging, we had some more stuff offered to remove the object from inside.

So on the bottom of the packaging and we made it very playful and fun and very giftable as well. Not just a product you would necessarily buy for yourself and it's not really a giftable product as a product in its own, but we made it giftable and it has a lot of small surprises throughout the process and imagine one of the pieces is missing when they get the product right, but they see so much different things that add to the experience, so they feel more obligated to reach out to us, say, Hey, this business is missing before leaving a one-star review because they got more value when they got this product.

Brett:

Really, really good example. So I know that was probably touched on a few of these pieces maybe, but how do you create a six star experience? What does this look like? What's the process you go through to say, is this enough to delight customers?

Tomer:

So I am not the most creative person probably I'm very analytic and systemized. So to me, I just think of a product as an experience. So every single touch point they have with the customer is an experience that means when they first look at the packaging, open the packaging, get a product out, learn how to use it, learn where do they store it, what did they do with it, when did they throw it out, if they get a replacement after all of that chain of processes and what I can do in every single touch point and help them out. So it's packaging, it's insert cards, it's instructions, it's even post-purchase things that we do after they purchase, watch a video or sending them email as a result. So we do a lot of different things and as we talk, I know we are talking maybe a few weeks before our Kickstarter launch, but we can talk more about it later maybe, but we're doing very unique things there to get that Kickstarter experience and to get a lot of opt-ins and do also good in the world and not just benefit ourselves with more money and whatever.

Brett:

Yeah, I love it. In fact, you mentioned, let's dive into that just really quickly. So talk about the product that you're launching the Kickstarter for and then how are you tying that into Amazon sales and a six star experience? Walk us through that.

Tomer:

So it starts with a product. So the six star experience methodology, the first five stars are all about have a good solid product that is better than everything else on the market. Now with the six stars, the over deliver and surprise and that is when you become, you do something different, hopefully something no one else did before you something out there. The example with the lock picking set because, so the first stars is you need a product that actually works, right? That's the first thing. If the LOF picking set doesn't work, nothing is going to help me out, doesn't have

Brett:

Me on that

Tomer:

First five stars that we need to hit, which are pretty basic. So the product is laptops sleeve, it flips like a regular laptop sleeve, but it's actually also a power bank, a docking station and a laptop mat all in one. So the problem we're trying to solve is I'm as in, you can call it a digital entrepreneur. I have three kids, but I have my own home office where I'm right now and I have coffee shops I go to and I have conferences I travel to and I don't want to take the bag with me or even the charger with me. So we thought what if we develop something that is an all in one thing that solves this problem. So you just take this with you, you have a built-in charger, you have everything built in, you just take the laptop in the sleeve and just work right for the entire day and the battery is strong enough to charge two and a half times.

So we are at the final stages of the PO development. It's been about eight, nine months I think something like that in process. But we documented the entire process of that is probably by the time people watch it, they can find that project shared as well from different steps that we took to develop the entire thing. But at this point, everything I told you is just a product. This is not customer experience, it doesn't really, so then we again think about every single touchpoint. So the packaging that we are doing is very unique. It's an old idea for a book packaging. We are on video as well, so I can explain to you what it looks like, but it looks like this. If you look like this is the packaging, they open it up like this and the book will come out and the sleeve will come out that it's like an old packaging idea for books.

If you let them on the video, it's going to be a bit unclear of what I just said, but it's a really cool and unique packaging. So as soon as they open it, the sleeve pops out of the packaging. So that's the first experience that they have. We're going to have some messages on both sides of the packaging so they can see that as well. And then inside the sleeve we're giving them a key chain and that key chain is a dog key chain. We are called Top Dog my company. So we are giving a dog and we're working with a charity organization in the US so when you buy our product, you actually help save a dog at the same time. And the dog itself has an N F C chip inside. So when you put your phone against it, you're going to see an update on your dog and what's going on with dog, did you get adopted or not and what? What's going on? And later that dog is going to be the one that is posting on social media on our behalf is going to ask you for reviews, it's going to offer you new products we're launching and so on and so on. So we are creating an entire experience

Brett:

From, and now that dog is going to be the liaison between top dog and the customer.

Tomer:

Exactly.

Brett:

Yeah. So fun. So fun. Yeah. I want to talk about product packaging just really quickly because this is such an important topic and this is one of the things that can really change the game in terms of surprising delight. I just remembered the old days when all product packaging sucked and opening a product was a pain and it was not fun. I think Apple was one of the first ones that really focused on man, we want the box and the unboxing experience to be great, to be powerful. One of my best experiences recently, and I posted about this on LinkedIn, so if anybody wants to see a video or kind of see it, go check it out there. But I bought a new coffee maker by cafe. It's a GE company, but it's kind of a high-end coffee maker and the box, instead of opening the top and trying to yank the thing out, one, I had a rope attached to it so you could pull it out of the box that it shipped in.

Then the product packaging itself, the top just opened up almost like what you were talking about where the base is secure, but the top two pieces open up and you just pull the coffee maker right out. I mean it's so great. Usually you open an appliance and you're fighting to get stuff out of the box. This was so easy and it set the stage wonderfully. It was so fun. And now I've told a ton of people about it, it's just, I'm sure it costs more for the box, but what does that gain the company in terms of reviews, recommendations, virality, all that? I've got to think that it's worth it.

Tomer:

So I will say a few things to that. One thing I will say is that Jeff Bezos mentioned that if a customer has a bad experience, they won't tell With social media, they won't tell five people, they'll tell 5,000 people. I believe the same thing happens when you have a good experience, but it just doesn't happen very often that we have a very unique experience. We want to talk and share because how many products did you buy in the past few years and how many products did you talk about on LinkedIn?

Brett:

We have Amazon shipments every day,

Tomer:

Right? So that's my point. To get that five star review from a normal customer on Amazon is difficult to do, right? You need something that will stand out from everything else. So that's why I'm saying it needs to be a different experience. The product has to be better, but you need a different experience when they get it. When it comes to the price, that's a critical factor, but the packaging is pretty much the only thing. We also have a surprise gifting inside that we do sometimes on some products, but customer experience as a whole doesn't need to cost you more money. The example with the lock picking set is just being a bit clever and playful in how we do things, but it doesn't mean hard cost you more. So we use different services for this. You can also use a lot of AI stuff for this right now, but this is I think a bit premature for that, for this level of creative. But what we do is we use NA designs for a lot of different packaging just to see a lot of different ideas from a lot of different designers. And we use a website called Squad Help that helps us to get taglines and slogans and very funny sayings around our brand. So this is a crowdfund kind of like 99 designs, but to get a lot of people suggesting you slogans and tag lines and stuff and then you just pick the winner and then you get paid and then they can trademark whatever they sent you.

Brett:

Yeah, I mean it's so great. So being a play on words or whatever, I remember I interviewed Mickey Agar, she's the founder of Tushy, which is the bidet company. You put it on your toilet or whatever. And then she started a few other companies too, but with the packaging is full of puns, but it came with this little booklet that said this number two shall pass. It was just hilarious. It didn't need to be there, but it was just so funny and ended up at our office and people pass. And so just little funny things.

Tomer:

You don't need to tell jokes, you don't need to be funny, you don't need to be a comedian, you just want to be a bit witty and playful. Put a smile on your face and that adds value. Value is what creates a six experience. And then they will be eager to leave you five star reviews or reach out to you if there's a problem. A lot more than if you don't have something like that.

Brett:

Yes, when you're human and you put a smile on their face, they're more understanding and more likely to go to you instead of going to Amazon to ask for you to fix a problem.

Tomer:

And when we think about the packaging, you mentioned it might cost more, so not necessarily. So we've seen a lot, we helped a lot of cells that have poly bags, but just being a bit more creative and playful with those we have. It just depends on the nature of the product and what it is. The more commoditized your product, the better you want to, the more you want to push towards this. I had during Covid, I wanted to launch a new brand, like a medical brand that is playful and humorous and selling omes and a bunch of other stuff, but we ended up not doing it. It was too saturated obviously during Covid, but for sure

Brett:

Good

Tomer:

News that's really missing in that space. In medical you don't have any of that and I think why not? You can make anything playful and fun and

Brett:

Yeah, I love it. So you mentioned the idea of a free gift and for Top dog for the laptop sleeve slash dog slash charger, you mentioned the dog. It was the dog key chain you said, or dog. So give us some ideas. How should we think about that gift? How much is that often going to cost us? What are you advising people to do in relationship to the free gift?

Tomer:

I will say generally speaking, customer experience. I believe it's something to dedicates 5% of your profit towards this is just take whatever your profit is, I don't care what it is, 5% of it every year say this goes just to improve the customer experience of our customers. And it can be packaging it be a gift inside, it can be letters you send 'em physically, it can be sending them the band that they love studying a few thousand bucks on that. It can be whatever you want it to be, but also understand, again, you don't need to make every customer have the same experience. I have this seller I help to sell off on Shopify as well, and I told them, give me the list of your top 20 sellers, top 20 customers right now that bought multiple times from me to sell this big products for 250 bucks.

And they had these customers buying 10, 20 times from them. And I told 'em, look, call them up. Just hold them up. Just call them up as the owner and just see what they say. And they were just blown away. And then I convinced 'em to send 'em some gifts and some other things because I mean this is something again, no one is doing right, no one is treating their customers more than the customers expect. So it's just something that adds so much. And those people, what do you think happened? It went viral, right? They

Brett:

Buy more, they tell all their friends. Yeah, I mean there's a few brands that I've discovered on Amazon that we buy a lot of those products and I would be pretty blown away if the owner of one of those companies called me to thank me. That's something I would remember. It's something I would share with other people even as a fellow business owner would still be cool. So pick up the phone and we put that aside. We don't think about it because we're like, well that won't scale, but that's the point. It doesn't need to scale. You're doing this for the biggest customers.

Tomer:

One of the person you can watch is Taylor Swift. Taylor is actually doing a lot of things like going to her fans' weddings to sing there all of a sudden out of blue. She does crazy stuff like that because she knows this will go viral. This is what people will talk about. And also even if it's not, let's say you do it and nothing happens, it's still the right thing to do. It's still doing good to your customers. So when I do this stuff, I have zero expectations of them working

Brett:

Nice,

Tomer:

But if it does, that's great, but if I do it a hundred times at some point it's probably going to work. But if I did it a hundred times, I at least gave a lot more value to a hundred customers. So that's kind the effort. Yeah.

Brett:

Yeah. So good. So good. Awesome. Other things we're considering with the customer experience portion. So the product's got to be good. It's got to be at least five star worthy. It works. It is as advertised. The product is good. But anything else you want to talk about on the customer experience part, which is what pushes us to that six star level?

Tomer:

You want to talk

Brett:

A little more about the post-purchase effort too? Just curious what else we're considering there. I think there may be something there

Tomer:

With the dog, it's fairly straightforward on what to do with the dog example, the dog emailing you and messaging you and stuff like that. So that's what we do there. But we have different brands where we do different things. We have a baby brand for example. What we do there is the insert card is written in a kid's font and that's the baby thanking their parents, thank you for buying this product for me. And it's very playful, very cute, and it's like you could buy anything for yourself, but he decided to buy this to me instead. I'll give you one example. When you do these type of things, you might piss some people off. For some reason this starts with dear mom and dad, we had lesbians messages, gay people message us saying this is not right. I'm a single parent, whatever. You might step on some people's toes when you do that type of stuff.

But I think you have to take a risk. You have to choose, this is my target or this is what I want to do, this is what I enjoy, this is what I want my brand to be about with Top Dog. Maybe some people don't like dogs and they get this product and they don't want this key chain, they don't want anything to do with it. They might be pissed and that's okay, I don't really care because this is what we decide. We're going to stand fully behind and this is the brand, these are the values, this is the mission. And I think whatever you decide the brand is going to be about. And with the baby brand, it's more about paying attention to your kids being like a parent without screens and all of that stuff. This is what we decide. And I think you have to connect the mission of the brand, whatever it may be, to an emotion of the customer.

And I think when we in Tab what we tell Tab is going to be about digital entrepreneurship as a e-commerce brand and digital entrepreneurs for them to own a dog is a struggle because they keep moving around, but now they can help save one instead. So that the emotional hook of the brand and that we found this is the integration between dogs and a electronic brand. And you can think there is no connection between the two dogs and that doesn't have any connection. But if you think about Amazon is a company, Amazon, if you go to a page not found on Amazon, you see a dog, right?

Brett:

And those are actual

Tomer:

Dogs of Amazon's employees that they are allowed to bring to their offices and they have over 10,000 dogs. If you go to mid of Amazon page,

Brett:

I've been there, it is crazy. In 2018, we were one of the fastest growing Amazon D S P agencies. So we got invited to the hq, myself and our Amazon director just got to hang out at two different campuses there in Seattle, awesome place. But dude, there are dogs everywhere. I mean the dog park between buildings full of dogs in the build and never seen more dogs. And they were all clean and groomed and it was the wildest thing. It was like I was at a dog show, but cool. But when you think about people love

Tomer:

Dogs, dogs just have an emotional hook to them. They do. Why Amazon is doing this, it's also the right thing to their employees, but that's why Amazon is doing this Now, saying that that might not be for everyone. Maybe you cannot work in Amazon because you don't like dogs and that's fine. But I think as brands, we try to play it safe all the time. We want to have the right packaging, the right thing to say, the right insert. But if you do it, I mentioned in my talk that safe actually equals death if you ask me when it comes to it totally

Brett:

Does. Yeah. Because if we try to not offend anyone, and obviously don't necessarily go out and try to be offensive, that's not the goal either. But think about it. I'm not a dog person, but if I got that packaging and I knew it was saving a dog and you had the dog tag, at a minimum I'd be like, oh, that's cool. And then I'd move on, right? Very small percentage of people that are going to be upset because you do something fun or slightly amusing or you do the right thing and we've just got to put that out of our mind and do what resonates to most of your customers. Do what works for your brand, have fun with it. Do the right and

Tomer:

Don't. And even fault with dear mom and dad, we thought we can change this to dear parent, but it's not the same thing when the kid is writing.

Brett:

Think even in that case, two moms, two dads, most people get that postcard. They're like, oh, this is really cute. It's going to be a very small percentage of people that are like, I'm offended because of the way you structured this postcard. Most people are going to just love it. And so that's what you got to go with.

Tomer:

And brands, midwives are just amazing in how they approach their audiences and how they talk to their audiences and the videos they have and all of that. Just you see a company about something and I just love companies that are playful. But again, emotion can be any emotion. Emotion can be anger, it can be fear, it can be whatever you want it to be. It doesn't have to be funny in top that we're going to have a mix of funny, but it's also very emotional dogs that you help save, right? So it's like a mix of a few things. And I think the more emotions it can create in your customers, the better.

Brett:

Absolutely. And we talk about this a lot. Without emotion, people don't take action unless you're stirring up desire. Either I want to get out of some kind of pain or I want to go towards some kind of pleasure or enjoyment. If you're not stirring up emotion, people won't take action. So the worst thing is not to make people angry with your advertising, but the worst thing is to be ignored or to be just so uninteresting that nobody notices. And so love that approach. Love what you're talking about here, Tomer. And so we will link to the Kickstarter in the show notes and get that out to everybody. So check out the top Dog, laptop sleeve, power Bank, docking station. And I think other things were included with that too, which is pretty awesome.

Tomer:

Hold on.

Brett:

Exactly. But tell us about what else Top Dog does because there's probably some Amazon sellers listening that are like, Hey, I'd like to hang with Tomer and the Gang. So what does that look like?

Tomer:

So we have a few things. One, obviously you can also buy the book available on Amazon, audible, anywhere you buy books from. And the book is the first book as far as I know, that is not about how to sell on Amazon, it's for active e-commerce sellers. So it teaches you how to do product research when you already have some products live, right? And how to build a real company, how to hire people, how to exit if that's what you plan to do. So that's the book. Then we have Top Duck community. So the community is welcoming everyone who is active in this industry. So we have sellers, we have aggregators, we have services, we have agencies, we allow everyone in. It's a paid community, it's own dedicated to app. When you do this video, it's probably doors are open, I assume, but you can check it out if you go to joint top dog.com and check out the community. Then I also work, I have some one-on-one relationship with bigger sellers where I help them grow towards an exit. So that's the only way I do if I help them scale to an exit.

Brett:

And we have our summit as well. But that's pretty much it. It's awesome. We'll link to everything in the show notes. So it's join topdog.com, also tomer rabinovich.com. You find out all the details. We'll link to it in the show notes. Tomer, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much. I had a blast and we'll have to do it again. Thank you so much, Brett. Awesome. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We'd love to hear from you. What would you like to hear more of on the show? And hey, if we're not connected on the socials, let's fix that problem. LinkedIn is probably the best place to follow me, but I'm also on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter occasionally. And so hit me up. I'm sharing stuff in between episodes and would love to connect with you. And so with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

‍

What if you could find one strategy that, if properly executed, could:

• Triple your revenue
• Build a hyper-engaged community around your brand
• Get feedback on exactly what products to launch next (and create anticipation around the launch of new products)
• Create an ongoing, repeatable marketing vehicle that improves CAC and LTV
• Establish a content machine

Sounds too good to be true? That's exactly what creating "Challenges" did for Alicia Reynoso and her fiancé. They went on to build a "60-Day Hydration Challenge" around their brand: Live Infinitely.

They leverage their challenge to grow from a mostly Amazon brand, to 50/50 Amazon and Shopify, to having a successful exit.

In this episode, Alicia and I dive into the why behind "Challenges" and what it takes to make them successful.

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the eCommerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce. And today we're diving into a topic we have never covered on this podcast before. We're talking about challenge-based marketing, but more than that, we're talking about how to build a community, how to build a loyal following, because I'm convinced if you're going to build a valuable brand that's in it for the long haul or that you can exit from a really nice sale, you need community, you need engagement, you need loyal followers. And so my guest today is Alicia Reynoso, and we met two different times recently. We spoke at Seller Summit in Florida. Shout out to Steve Chu and Toni. And then we also met at Blue Ribbon Puerto Rico. So we're speakers at both those events and no, was it Puerto Rico or was it another event? Alicia at Denver.

Alicia:

Denver.

Brett:

Denver, yeah. Yeah, blue Ribbon Denver. But so many people were like, man, you got to listen to Alicia's presentation. And so we connected. I'm so glad we did. And for those that don't know, Alicia is the founder of Challenge Makers, so she helps people with challenge-based marketing and then through the former co-founder of Live Infinitely. So we're going to talk about that. So Alicia, thanks for taking the time. Welcome to the show. And how's it going?

Alicia:

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I've been super excited in all of our Blue Ribbon events. I've heard so much Curry, so I've always wanted to actually connect, so I'm glad we actually got the opportunity.

Brett:

That's awesome. And so I think we got to talk about this for those that are watching, and look at the video one, you started a health-based brand that you guys sold, which we'll talk about as we go, but you're not in a normal studio, not in an office. You're also not in a typical bedroom, which has become kind of the norm in a post covid world. But looks like you're in an RV. Alicia, can you let the folks know? Where are you right now? My

Alicia:

RV. Yep. So my fiance and I, we actually live on the road now after selling our business. So we live six months on the road and we're just started our next six months for our second year. This year we're traveling the East coast, so right now we're in North Carolina and it's

Brett:

Been a blast. That's awesome. And so this is your second year to spend half the year on the road?

Alicia:

Yep, yep. Last year was all West Coast. Oh yeah, love it. This has been the dream for sure, starting the business, selling the business, and then travel. So last year we did all West Coast. This year we're doing the East coast.

Brett:

That's awesome. I even have, part of me is like, man, the van life or the RV life would be really cool. Now I've got eight kids, so that is not my immediate future by any means, but I also know it's a lot of work. I had a guy that worked for me for a long time named Brandon, and he and his wife and two kids had an rv and he said had some really bad experiences, some comical experiences, but he told me, he said we had a travel itch and we scratched that thing until it bled. I get that too. I get that there could be some challenges too, but it looks super fun. So I'll live vicariously through you guys for now. Awesome.

Alicia:

Yeah, maybe when your kids are grown, you can hit the road, try it out.

Brett:

Very possible. Very possible. I may be more of a flying and Airbnb type of guy, but I like the idea of RVs too. So let's talk about this. So we're talking about building a hyper-engaged following community around your brand. First of all, how did you start your brands? So let's get a little bit of your background and then we'll get into the why behind challenges.

Alicia:

Yeah, for sure. So I was on 1920 looking, I thought the internet was the coolest thing. How can I make money? How can I start a business? I learned about Amazon F B A through amazing, the amazing course. I bought that course. Yeah,

Brett:

I just spoke at Amazing Seller a couple months ago. Oh, you did?

Alicia:

Yep. Oh, nice. Yeah, I've been wanting to reach out to them. That was really what kicked it off for me back then with the amazing course.

Brett:

I'll make an intro to the gang. They'll love to hear from you.

Alicia:

Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, for sure. So I took that, got it started. We launched Live infinitely in 2014, more so 2015, 2014, we launched a dead product. So official launch 2015. And every year it was just super easy to scale. It was like the Wild Wild West back there, or you could just launch products and scale. So we were very successful the very first few years, but then things started getting more competitive. You had to get a little bit more creative. And so that's when we're like, okay, let's get on Shopify and try to build our brand Amazon and Shopify. And that's where really the struggle came in. That's when we joined Blue Ribbon and we're like, okay, how do we learn Facebook? How do we do all the things, email marketing, learn all of that. And we were slowly making progress until 2019, 2020, we learned Facebook ads in 2020 is when we launched our challenge. And that's just when it changed our entire direct to consumer website that just blew up from our Facebook ads and our community. And we went from 99% Amazon to 50 50, 50% on Shopify, 50% on Amazon.

Brett:

Beautiful. I think that's where healthy brands usually want to go or aspire to go that 50 50 split between Amazon and true D two C or with Shopify or BigCommerce or whatever. I think buyers are more interested in that, that feels like, and it is a more stable business. So kudos to you for getting there. And we already dropped the spoiler alert earlier, but you sold and you had a successful exit, and I think that was in large part to the fact that you had a diversified business, which I know helped a lot. So give us kind of the overview. We will dive into all the details. So this is more like a, here's what the challenge was, here's what it did, and then we're going to get into the ins and outs and the why's and hows and things like that. But I want to tease this for people because I don't know, we got a lot on our plate. We got a lot of marketing opportunities. We could go Facebook, YouTube, things on Amazon, bottom of funnel, mid funnel, whatever, but I think a lot of people are missing this concept of challenges. So what was the high level stuff and then how'd it work?

Alicia:

So it was a 60 day hydration challenge. Water bottles was our hero product. That's what we sold and most of. So we created a 60 day hydration challenge initially to nurture our existing community and just try to increase our lifetime value and get people to know us and understand the brand more. But then it ended up being something that we used for everything top of funnel, middle of funnel, bottom of funnel. It was like all of it. It was this really unique way that we could go out into the world and attract people with something that was purely value-based, like, this is for you. It's free to join, come into our world and let us help you. And then when people bought our products or were in our world, then it was something that they got to actually know our brand more and fall in love with us.

And everyone in our community would market all of our other products, so then they'd buy more. And so it just became this big thing that completely changed our brand. Before, when we were just on Amazon, we were trying to convey our message of living infinitely, meaning live your life with infinite possibilities. Chase after your dreams, live bigger, live bolder. That was all of our messaging. But when you're on Amazon, it's a little bit trickier to share that. And so when we had the community, we were able to share that message of going after your dreams and being healthy and really create that connection with our customers that we never had before, which helped in all of our marketing because we actually knew our customers then. So it was high level this thing that came in, meaning our intention was to have it at the bottom of the funnel to nurture our customers, but it just changed everything, which is really

Brett:

Cool. And just to tease the results, I heard something like, was it double, triple the business or something over time? What was that

Alicia:

Little nugget? Yeah, triple revenue. And the biggest thing was our lifetime value increased by 47%, which was huge for us because we sold a 14 game changer, $15 water bottle. And so especially on Facebook, how do you go out and acquire customers on a 14, $15 water bottle? We had to get super creative with our bun ring and everything, but then we'd get people in and they would fall in love with the brand because we helped them in ways that other brands weren't, that the lifetime value just skyrocketed.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that so much. And so, I mean really the game with D two C is how do we get that appropriate CAC or customer acquisition cost compared to L T V? And so there's really only so much you can do to lower your customer acquisition costs. You've got to increase L T V to be able to really accelerate and press the gas pedal down. And one thing that I like to talk, one thing that I've been talking about a lot to brands is there's a difference between being a purveyor of goods online or selling stuff online and having a brand and a community. And when you have a brand and a community, then it becomes so much easier to sell the next product that you launch or to upsell or to bundle or to increase that L T V. If you are kind of a nameless, faceless community list product on Amazon or wherever, you can have success, you can make money. But really the next level of success is when you build a brand and you've got a brand when people are searching for you by name and when you've got a community and a following around that brand. And so challenges, that was the vehicle you used to really launch that. So walk us through, how did you get to this point where you're like, Hey, we should do a challenge?

Alicia:

Yeah, for sure. So finally just we were at that 200 19 or 20 where we're like, alright, we're kind of stalling. We're not really growing. We need to change something in order to continue to grow off Amazon. And so we sat down, we're like, okay, who is our customer? Who are we marketing to? At that point, we were selling Hamot backpacks, bug nets, we were kind of all over the place. It was Amazon, we looked for bestseller rankings we can be, and we were like, let's launch that and that works. But then we're like, okay, who is actually our customer? And we sat down and took the time and realized who they were, and then we're like, okay, how can we provide value to this customer even if they never paid us, how can we bring somebody into our world provide so much value to them even if they don't buy our product? And so I was super excited. I kind of was our customer. I love being healthy, I love sending goals. So I was like, I can create journals, I can create eBooks and guides and videos and workouts. I was going to do all these things. And then I realized that's just not realistic. We were a small team of three. So much, so much. Yeah, that's so much content

Brett:

Make, there's a lot of people that are doing that, right? There are content creators that have YouTube channels and that have guides and have personal communities and coaching and all that exists too, to a certain degree.

Alicia:

And it's great. And if you have the resources then you can do all of that. But I just didn't, we just didn't have a team. And so then I came up with the idea of a 60 day hydration challenge, and that just allowed me to take all of that value that I wanted to create and bundle it into this challenge, this community because they would join the 60 day Hydration challenge and pledge to drink water. But then every single week we have many weekly challenges where we'd work on our nutrition and goal setting and self love and all of those other things that were super important to our customer and our customer's journey to being successful. We could provide them all of that value in just a weekly live call, I'd jump on and be like, alright, this week we're going to focus on nutrition and I mean, I'm not a dietician or nutritionist or anything, but I just talk about my experience and this is my recommendation. Eat some whole foods and here's a little checklist to see that you ate some Whole Foods this week and introduce people to new concepts of the things they needed to learn on their customer journey to be more successful. And so that's kind of how we came up with that idea because it gave us the ability to dramatically overdeliver without having to go and create all this

Brett:

You could overdeliver and really the customers are creating the content and it's even probably more effective and more motivating and more engaging and more fun than even if you guys had just broken your back trying to create content. And so I really love this and I love what you said a minute ago, this idea of truly understanding your customer. And that's another part of the pivot from just selling stuff to being a brand is understanding let's not just be a product-focused brand. Let's be a customer-focused brand. Who are we serving? Who do we want to serve? Who can we connect with? And then let's provide value to them. And I love what you said, let's provide value even if they don't buy a single product because they will. People love to buy products and if they're connected with you and you offer good products and you offer community, people are going to buy stuff, right? We are addicted to buying stuff, but rather than just selling a random products, how do we curate products, build products, launch products that are for this set of customers? So

Alicia:

Love

Brett:

That shift, love that shift.

Alicia:

It just is way more fulfilling going from selling on Amazon to and Sword Live infinitely the name. I had a mission from day one but couldn't connect with our customers. And so it was finally, that was such a fulfilling time in our business with actually serving them and actually connecting. So it just provides a lot of fulfillment that way.

Brett:

Love it, love it. So I know you said that challenges are the most effective way to build community. Why do you say that?

Alicia:

I say that because it's really identifying the customer journey. And if you can in any of your marketing, know your customers and the journey that they are on and help take them from point A to point B, like I said, without them paying, you're going to have a lifelong loyal customer for life. Because if somebody comes in and you help change their life, whether or not they pay you, they're going to look at you as the source of truths, who they trust, who they would come back to. And so it's a challenge is the vehicle that can help take them from point A to point B because you're like, here is what you need all the resources to be. Our customer wanted to be healthy, hydrated, loved, motivated, all these things. And so with our weekly challenges and the 60 day overall, it was so much more than hydration.

It was like they come in for hydration, but then they leave a different person. They set goals, they felt like they loved themselves, they stepped outside of their comfort zone, and so they go through this transformation that they didn't even expect. And so that's why it's an even deeper transformation. And when you put them in a challenge community, they're going through this, they're going through this experience with people, and that's what really changes the game because when you go through this journey alone, it's like if we sent them some guides or like, Hey, knock yourself out. Here's some tools and resources and they just try to do it, they're not going to be as successful likely. Or if you can put them in a community where they can go on a shared experience and the challenge of the vehicle that is that experience, then it creates this hyper-engaged community because they start sharing their tips, their tricks, their failures, their successes. This is my favorite healthy meal, this is how I set my goals. And then people start commenting like, oh, I love that milk. Can you send me some more information? And it creates this community around that sharing experience that your customers are on. And so that's why I think it's the best vehicle for sure because it's systemized. It's super easy as a brand owner to deliver and just give your customers the ability to connect in ways that they wouldn't normally be able to.

Brett:

It's so good. It's so good. I love Donald Miller's building a story brand. And one thing he talks about in the book is that the hero in the story is not your product. It's not you as the business owner of the brand. The hero is the customer. And so our job is we're a guide along that journey. We're like a Sherpa helping our customer to the peak of the mountain that they're trying to climb. And so the more we can show that with our product, here's how our product can help you get what you want in your life. But then I think the challenge, the community really helps accelerate that where otherwise it might just be a water bottle and then the water bottle is just sitting at home. But with the challenge, it's like, no, no, no. I'm part of a community now where I can share my story, I can hear other people's stories, I can get motivation, I can get questions answered, I can celebrate, and I got people who will cheer me on and clap.

For me. It's a real experience in a community. Kind of an interesting story, I just got into running again. I went for several years without running, and I just run by my house. So there's big hills and stuff, but the other day I was running and running up this big hill and I saw two guys running down the hill, and then at the bottom of the hill there was, I think it was one of their wives in a Tacoma pickup. And so she picked them up and brought 'em up the hill and they just kept running up and down the hill. And every time I pass, they'd be like, you can do this, man, you got this. And as the lady drove by the Tacoma, she's like, you keep going. You just keep grinding. And I didn't know who they were, but I was like, Hey, this run feels pretty good. This is a better run than normal. It's just the spontaneous

Alicia:

Community.

Brett:

That's awesome, but we all want that. And so that's when you create these challenges, you can create the environment for that for your customers. And I think you nailed it where you said it's actually pretty easy if you structure this the right way.

Alicia:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's a great example where it's like you feel like the sense of motivation when you have people in your corner, it's just a whole different thing. And humans, we're designed to be with people, and so we all crave that connection. And whatever experience you're going on, sometimes you don't have people in your life going through that experience. You don't have people that are into running or that want to get hydrated or get in shape or, so if you can find a community through a brand that provides those people that are on that shared experience, you're going to lock into that brand and stay loyal to them.

Brett:

Totally. I think that's the real magic behind some of these communities that you and I are part of Blue Ribbon. I mean, okay, so part of the Magic Blue Ribbon is Ezra Fire Zone. He's a genius and he is an awesome, good actor, but the reason someone will stick around in that since the beginning, my business partner and I have been in that group since the beginning. It is because of Ezra, but it's also the connections. These are people and we are going through the same stuff all the time. I can't talk to some of my local friends or my family necessarily about what we struggle with as entrepreneurs, but I can in that group. And so you're creating that for your customers through these challenges, which is really cool. So let's talk about this. So I am sure there's some people listening that are like, okay, but you sold water bottles before you sold the company. That's easy to do a hydration challenge. So how could this work for another brand? And then how do you figure out where do you insert this or where does this fit in the customer journey?

Alicia:

Yeah, for sure. So there's two steps to that. And the first is the, I didn't come up with this, but it totally makes sense. There's three core markets that every product serves. When somebody is going to buy your product, they're either trying to serve something to do with their health, wealth or relationships. Those are the three core markets and needs that people are trying to fulfill. So that's the first step is identifying where your brand falls in that. Do you serve them in their health, wealth or relationships? And sometimes it's not so obvious. Maybe it's the relationship with themselves, maybe it's the relationship with their pets, maybe it's their health with mental health or emotional health or physical health. Kind of just have to dig deep in what of those three core markets do you help serve. And then the next step is really taking the time and mapping out your customer's journey because sometimes it's not so obvious. Even water bottles seem so obvious to me now, but it's like I was struggling. It probably wasn't

Brett:

The beginning though, was it?

Alicia:

No, I like spend a whole week, you could sell a water bottle to anybody. I could have sold it to 40 year old men. And that's a whole different customer journey than the middle-aged women that our community was made up of. And so really figuring out who your customer is and their customer journey in relation to your product. And that has to do a lot with your brand mission. So you have to understand one of your three core markets, but then next step is your brand mission. My brand mission was helping empower people to live their life with infinite possibilities and believe in them themselves that they could do things, they could do big things. So that's what I wanted to empower people to do. And so I found my six day hydration challenge and my group of people in the customer journey and designed that to fit my brand mission.

And that's just going to be you, your brand, your brand mission. And then just taking the time, I have built out this avatar worksheet essentially where it's the before state, the after state where your customer is, where they're trying to go, and what are all the objections that are stopping them from achieving that. And so I know one example, skincare, we had a client that was massively successful was their challenge. They created a confident in your skin challenge. They realized that the ultimate desire of their customers were to feel confident, to feel beautiful. They were like women 30 plus that are just hitting that age where like, oh my gosh, and they want to still feel youthful and pretty. And so they've made their challenge around feeling confident as you're aging and their challenge just knocked out of the park. And it's just really a matter of, it's not so much the product as it is your brand mission and what your mission is to what you are trying to do in the world. And so I think it can be harder for faceless brands or drop shipping brands. You need to have a mission. You need to know what you're trying to do with your products, and that's going to be the ultimate driver of how you can create your challenge,

Brett:

This element of authenticity where customers can sniff out if you don't really mean this or if you don't really care. Absolutely. And so this has to connect with your mission, with your brand mission, or else customers are going to be like, why would I do that? You don't believe in this. People just get that. Maybe they wouldn't verbalize it that way, but they get that sense. And so it does have to align with your mission for sure. Absolutely. As I was looking at some of your ads, some of the things that you ran to launch your challenge, you were in those ads, I think it was you and a family member or something maybe, and just was authentic man. You could see your passion. People connected with that. They commented on the fact that, Alicia, you're living this, you're doing this. We want to be like you, type of thing. So I think that's important to note too. The challenge has to line up with your mission,

Alicia:

And you're absolutely right, customers can sniff it out. I've seen a few communities or challenges be launched where unfortunately the brand owners weren't bought into their own mission or didn't really have a strong one, and they're successful enough, but the ones that just kill it are the brand owners that are truly passionate about the mission of their brand. So that really matters.

Brett:

Cool. So what would you do then if you sold auto parts or auto accessories or if you sold home goods or something like that? And I know I'm throwing some big categories at you, but thoughts there, and I know you've got to go through the process. I know this isn't just like a, oh, snap your finger and you come up with a challenge. But any thoughts there to help someone apply this by looking at the health, wealth and relationships and the journey?

Alicia:

I mean, yeah, so auto parts, it's likely to men, that's likely your customer and you'd identify health, wealth or relationships. It's likely relationships, or it could even be wealth could

Brett:

Depending on Yep. Because wealthy our Jeep or our truck or whatever is a status symbol to us. Yes.

Alicia:

Status. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Or it could be the relationship with themselves and their family. So really identifying which part of that you're in and then understanding that man's customers journey. And you'd be surprised these communities, I wasn't sure if it would work very well with men, but they do because even men are looking for community. We need

Brett:

Connection too, man. Yeah,

Alicia:

Yeah. They're looking for connection too, where you could join a community and talk about, I mean, my fiance brilliant with cars and can tear 'em apart and put 'em back together, and he geeks out when he can, finds somebody else that is as knowledgeable and can build these things with him. And so understanding, I mean, I wouldn't know exactly the exact challenge I would do, but understanding him, somebody like him that loves cars and that's why he used to do build 'em. And then providing him the community to meet other men that are knowledgeable or want to learn about auto parts and building cars and what's that for? Is it for racing? Is it for just buying and selling cars? What is your brand? What's the point of your brand? And really building that community because somebody that builds them to race is much different than the person that's building them and selling them. And so it's taking all those pieces and coming together for that person and best serving them.

Brett:

Totally makes sense. Yeah. Is it an off-roading community? Is it a racing community? Is it like a classic car restorations? We're building these and taking 'em to car shows. What is that community building? And building it around that I think makes a ton

Alicia:

Of sense. Yeah. Then they'd be so excited, I just entered this car show, check it out. And they'd show pictures of the subs that they put in the car. I don't know, whatever that they put in. So there's definitely people that would love to share that experience. And so it's really on the brand, obviously. And then how you can build that out

Brett:

Totally makes sense. And I can see this apply on the food side of things. If you're selling healthy prepackaged breakfast bars or something or packaged oatmeal or whatever, that would be a health play. If you're selling barbecue supplies and barbecue tools and utensils, that's a relationship play, right? Barbecue is about even the memory and gatherings and prints and memories. And so yeah, I like that thinking about what does this tie into and then building your challenge around that. Super, super smart. Cool. And I know you mentioned this in the beginning, but the challenge really accelerated every other aspect of your business. It was a three x multiplier of revenue, which is impressive considering how well you guys were doing on Amazon at the time, but how does a challenge help scale the rest of your brand?

Alicia:

Yeah, great question. So this is the part that was totally unexpected and totally welcomed. I did all of our marketing, ran our ads, emails, wrote our content, everything like that. And so when we had our community, all of a sudden these incredible stories with pictures of our water bottles and stuff were just flooding this Facebook group. And I'm like, man, these are way cooler stories than I could have came up with. They're they're real, they're authentic. And so I would scrape that content and turn 'em into blog posts, which then I would use that blog post to send as an email, which would drive revenue. And then if that email performed very well, I'd turn that content into a Facebook ad and then that Facebook ad would drive revenue. And so I was like this free content that was just flooded,

Brett:

Free content machine man.

Alicia:

And I mean by the time we sold, we didn't even tap into a fifth of that. I feel like it was just so much and we could just keep going through different stories that would relate to different people, different segments of our community, and we just run them as ads. So that was the biggest thing that helped us scale was just before I would beg people, can you please take a picture was our water bottle. Can you send us something? And we had no idea how to do influencer marketing or brand ambassadors. We didn't have any of that. And so to get that kind of content was really hard for us. And so I was the face of our ads for a long time, but then as soon as we had this community, they became everything. And so I didn't have to come up with all this content anymore in my life, just got so much easier and I could create my monthly plan. I'm like, here's a cool story, here's a great story, and just throw it all in there in these emails and blog posts and ads performed so much better than even the stuff I could come up with because it was so authentic. And so people would share their stories of how their lives were changed by coming into and being a customer of ours. And you can't make it up. And it wasn't forced, it wasn't paid for. It was real.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so great. And I think it makes a lot of sense in the beginning, especially to kind be the face of your brand if you're so inclined and you've got the personality and the ability to do that, but that's also hard and it's exhausting. And then if you ever want to sell your business, that becomes tricky too. So you kind of leveraged this challenge to allow the customers to be the face of the brand and to really have this content machine that you leveraged for scale. And so kudos to you for that. Let's talk a little bit about some of the mechanics here. So how did this work? So you got this 60 day hydration challenge, you got these mini challenges along the way. How did you promote it? How'd you facilitate it? And I know that that could be a podcast in and of itself, but kind of high level, how did you promote it? How did you structure it? How'd you facilitate it?

Alicia:

For sure. So the structure essentially is 60 day hydration challenge or six day quarter objective. The thing that you have your customer pledge to do for that time period, however long that might be, 30, 60 days. And then every single week I would break it up into mini weekly challenges. And there were so many reasons for this one, because six stay is a long time and people lose interest. So they were like, oh, I don't know. But then if you're changing up the conversation every single week, that's what caused the hyper-engaged ness of our community was like, it's nutrition week, it's self-love week, it's setting goals. And so the conversations were always changing and people were always interested in what's going on, so they would stay around and engage longer. And then the other part of that is that it helps them with all those other things that we talked about to be successful along the customer journey. And then my first challenge

Brett:

Too, because if all you had to talk about was water, maybe you kind run out of things to say like, I'm still hydrated. I feel great. There'd be more to it than that. But the idea that you have then specific mini challenges each week, change the conversation lot. Maybe the same person to comment every week and to share something new and fresh every week. There's going to be some people along that journey. The water's cool, and so the hydration is a nice benefit, but it was really one of those mini challenges that

Alicia:

Lit

Brett:

A fire under them and cause them to really make big personal gains in their life. And so love the idea of the weekly mini challenge.

Alicia:

Exactly, exactly. What happened. Some people were like, I'm working on my water, but I'm really doing my self love. They're doing that. And then the other really big pro to that is that people from our first round, they still do it like 16 challenges later. They're still in it because every single round is different because you change the mini weekly challenges. And so it's a senate and forget it kind of machine. Once you build it, you just keep it running and all you do is change out the mini weekly challenges and it's a whole new every single time without having to reinvent the wheel, which is really, really good because then people stay around and when they stay around, they start promoting you to the new customers and they're like, do you have the purple bottle? Do you have the grit green one? And they start selling your products, and that's better than anything you could say.

Brett:

That's awesome. And so are you mostly then facilitating this through Facebook and through community there, or are you doing something through Discord or Slack or email or kind of how are you facilitating it?

Alicia:

Yeah, it was all through Facebook. So we had a Facebook group mainly for a few reasons. Facebook groups are just like, I feel like the best community place right now has all the tools you need, being able to go live and set events and see who's engaging. And then also just because that was the majority of our ad spend, we were all on Facebook. And so it was easy. That was our customers, they were there. So that's what I always recommend. And all the communities I've helped, they're on Facebook as well. And it gives you all the tools that you need to run the communities, which is great.

Brett:

Very cool. So how much you and your fiance exited the business? Congratulations to you guys. I know that Thank you. For most brand owners, either that's the goal or they want to merge with somebody else, but usually some m and a is part of the goal for e-comm brands. So talk about that just a little bit. How do you think this success with challenges allowed you to have that exit that you had hoped for?

Alicia:

Yeah, I mean, it gave us so many pieces of the puzzle that when we were talking to our broker for years, they're like, you need this thing, this thing. I'm like, and then when we had this community, we're like, we have those things, now we got it. Here's a roadmap. Here's a five to 10 year roadmap of what the customers want. Because now we actually know them. We talk to them, they say, we run surveys and they want these products. Here's a game plan. We could give them that as well as it definitely provides a level of defense when you have an audience that is so valuable in so many ways. And that's why Facebook so such a big company, they've got a huge audience. And if you can have an audience of your own net rallies behind you, that's your biggest fan and grow your email list and stuff, it's very attractive to a potential buyer of like, Hey, look, here is some defense because you got this hyper-engaged community and a big email list and it's continuing to grow and here's a vehicle to attract new customers. But definitely most of all, just that roadmap because Shannon and I, we launched products back in the day that completely flopped because we didn't know our customers. And that's very expensive. That's so hard, so

Brett:

Much time, so much money in your first run and working with manufacturers and prototypes and all that just to then w w have it fail. Yeah, it's painful.

Alicia:

It's very painful. And every product that we launched after our community was a success because it was based off of what they wanted and we were able to be show them, us building it and it out to launch and they were ready, goodbye. And so that it really helps that roadmap. We didn't have one before. If somebody said, where do you take this brand? Before it was like, keep growing. It's wherever

Brett:

You want to. Whatever sounds good to,

Alicia:

Exactly, exactly. But

Brett:

Now when you know your customer and you have this community, you know what products to offer next because they will tell you, and what does a buyer of your brand want? What does a potential investor, whether it's a strategic or PE or whoever's going to come in and buy the brand, they want to know, how can I grow this brand more, right? I'm buying it at this value, but I want to grow it to 2, 3, 4, 5 x what you're currently doing. So what's my product roadmap? How defensible is this, right? How likely am I to be able to ward off competitors and then grow as competition increases? And having a community is about the best protection, the best moat that you can have around your brand. Certainly intellectual property, IP and pads and stuff, that's cool, but that's kind of hard to get in a lot of cases.

And so having this community around your brand really provides that, and then it increases L T V, it can help either lower CAC or just keep CAC at a healthy level. And so I love it. I think this is likely one missing piece that people need in their marketing and in their approach to building new customers or attracting new customers and keeping existing ones is launching challenges. And so I know you are not part of the brand anymore. You guys sold it and stuff. Are they still doing these challenges? Is it still running or do you know?

Alicia:

Yeah, yeah. I believe they still are. I think they're on the 16th round now.

Brett:

That's so cool.

Alicia:

Of the 60 day irrigation challenge. And we exited at the 10th, so I did 10 of them before leaving.

Brett:

That's awesome. But really the ideal thing here is you find a challenge that works, that gets people interested, and then you keep doing it, you keep running it and it becomes evergreen and you change out the mini challenges. But then the overarching challenge still works.

Alicia:

And the biggest thing is you can't mess up, to be honest. If you start a challenge and it doesn't hit the target, if you're showing up authentically and you're showing up like this is our brand, this is our mission, this is what we're trying to do, that shines through beyond anything else. And then you can make adjustments your customer's like, man, you're so cool. I really enjoyed this, but how about we try a step challenge now that would make more sense. So it's like it's going out there. And I mean, my first challenge, I just was winging. I had no idea. I didn't even know I was doing weekly challenges. I was just like, Hey guys, let's drink water. And it just evolved into something and people helped me build it because they could see the authenticity and they bought into the brand mission. So that's why I emphasize brand mission more than anything because you just really can't mess it up, like are genuine and you have a strong mission, and that's really what you're trying to do is help transform people's lives.

Brett:

Well said. I love that. That's going to be a good place to kind of wrap up this discussion. I do want you to share, though, people are listening. They're like, okay, this sounds awesome, but you know what? I don't want to do this by myself. So Alicia, what is the name of your company? I think it's Challenge Makers, correct. So tell us a little bit about that and how do you guys operate?

Alicia:

Yeah, for sure. So challenge makers.com is where I have a little course now where you can go through in the exact process of my templates, the M avatar worksheet, identifying your own customer journey, and then all my emails and all the templates into building a challenge. I have that available as well as the option to work one-on-one with me where my team comes in and we strategize it for you and actually build it for you. So we have both options available on challenge

Brett:

Challenge makers.com. Alicia Reynoso, ladies and gentlemen, Alicia, that was so good. So fun. Thank you for the time. Really, really enjoyed it.

Alicia:

Thank you so much for having me. That was a blast.

Brett:

Awesome. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We would love to hear from you. Hey, connect with me on the socials. If we're not friends on LinkedIn, what's going on? If we're not connected on Facebook or on Twitter, let's do that. I am beginning to post more regularly and check out the YouTube channel, O M G Commerce, YouTube channel, posting new content there, new shorts, new stuff. Maybe you missed a previous episode. We got highlights for you on YouTube. So check that out. And as always, until next time, thank you for listening.

‍

Drew Sanocki has successfully turned around 8 and 9-figure eCommerce brands not once, not twice, but 5 times. Among his successes are AutoAnything and Karmaloop. 

Drew is also the Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Post Pilot (direct mail made for DTC and eCommerce). 

He knows the strategies behind what it takes to succeed in DTC better than almost anyone I know. 

Here’s a look at what we cover:

• Jay Abraham’s 3 ways to grow any business. 
• New Customer Acquisition (NCA) is only ONE way to grow your business and is almost certainly the most expensive way.
• Why Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO) can be misleading and why focusing on Customer Value Optimization (CVO) matters more.
• What all failing eCommerce brands have in common and how to avoid the death spiral. 
• The principle of optimizing before you multiply. 
• Using direct mail for retention, remarketing, AND new customer acquisition.

Whatever you do, don't mention "Growth Hacking" to Nirav Sheth. Trust me, he's got something even better!

Nirav is the CRO mastermind driving success for some of the fastest-growing and most loved DTC brands like Molekule, Mack Weldon, Athletic Greens, Four Sigmatic, and more.

He has a truly unique and effective way of approaching optimization that defies all traditional CRO norms. It all begins with understanding what we should test and what we shouldn't based on the dollars behind it.

What we cover:

• How an eBike company turned the tables on their "add to cart" rate, resulting in a jaw-dropping $12 million impact.
• How a shoe company reworked its mobile experience to simplify and improve conversions.
• When to run quizzes, when to not, and when to ask more questions instead of less (this will likely surprise you).
• How to think about CRO from the customer's perspective in terms of "micro journeys."
• Should you go headless? Why Nirav thinks it's usually a bad idea, and when to consider it.

‍

Transcript

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce. And today we're going to be looking at what it takes to be one of the elite D2C brands that's growing at a fast pace and delighting customers at the same time. So we're going to be diving into optimization and my guest today, the gentleman on the show today, no one better in the business, no one knows more about this topic. And let me just read for you the list of some of the companies this guy's worked for. So he's currently working with Athletic Greens, dollar Shave Club four Sigmatic, Mac Weldon. He was the CTO at WeWork. He was also the CTO at Athletic Greens. This guy knows his stuff. He's going to blow your mind. It's going to be a super fun discussion. So I'm delighted to welcome to the show ov she. So ov, welcome to the show, man. How you doing? And thanks for taking the time.

Nirav:

Thank you so much for having me, Brett. Super excited to be here with you.

Brett:

Yeah, I'm pumped about this. So obviously I've been in the D2C business for a long time, had the agency OMG Commerce since 2010. I'm an avid online shopper, and both from the service provider standpoint and the customer standpoint, I love good ux. I love a good user experience. I love a website that's easy and intuitive and fun to shop and I know that you do that so well. But I do want to hear kind of quickly before we dive into this topic, and we got lots of tips and insights and pet peeves that we'll talk about and some other fun stuff. But how did you get into this? How does somebody go from wherever you began to now working with some of the most loved and fastest growing D2C brands?

Nirav:

Yeah, well, great question Brett. Well, I actually started the whole business and my consulting agency Anata out of my childhood bedroom. So out of my parents' house, 1100 square foot home.

Brett:

That's awesome.

Nirav:

Green tile walls, the most ugly looking walls you'll ever see. Love it. Blue carpet, it

Brett:

Was. Do you have pictures of these green tile walls and

Nirav:

Blue carpets? I do, I do. It's still there. Yeah, you got to share those and then it's like a 60 square foot bedroom. And that's really where I started my company from. And it was a place where I had to grow up with immigrant parents coming from an immigrant family and first generation came out of college and I was three classes short of graduating and I had a decision maker. I was either run and create my company or go get a job and I had no other decisions. My parents made it very clear, you don't make enough money to make this work, you're going to have to find a job. We didn't spend $45,000 a month on it year at George Washington University education for nothing. And we didn't work our butts off for that. So I had six months to do it in while going back and forth from dc taking the mark train back and forth from Delaware to go get my classes done. And at the same time we're growing the company and luckily still to not a flourished, but I was able to make the $50,000 in six months that I needed to make. And that's what really started in nada. And from there, dude, that's pretty

Brett:

Good. 50,000 bucks in six months for a guy finishing up school. That's awesome. And if anybody's wanting know how to spell that or trying to type it in while you're on the go, it's a N A T T A, correct?

Nirav:

Yes, absolutely correct. Okay, awesome.

Brett:

And so then were you getting a degree in design in UX or how did the work relate to the degree

Nirav:

That and barely It went from, I had an electrical engineering degree, which helped me understand programming and knowing programming, but really it was really teaching me be how to be a really amazing project manager. I could be able to take any project from start to finish. And I think that's a true skillset that I got in knowing how to manage budgets, how to work with timelines and be able to complete something. And so that's really what it taught me from a business angle and how anada as I was starting to create it, that's where I fit in. I became that project manager and then I just staffing and going to hustle to find the next client.

Brett:

Love it. And really that engineering mindset is super valuable for optimization and testing too, isn't it like that? Did that training help you with the optimization process as well?

Nirav:

Absolutely. I mean the mathematics and the statistics side really helped out and to truly understand what is going to move the needle and what's not, especially on optimization front, if you don't understand both qualitative and quantitative metrics, you really lose.

Brett:

Yeah. Yeah, so good. Yeah, so good. Well let's dive in then. So what are some of the most common mistakes you see D two C brands making when it comes to UX and ui?

Nirav:

So the biggest mistakes that I see in the UX side as well as UI is really trying to hack at solutions and think that by changing the color of a button or by making a small little change that is somehow going to move the needle in a massive way, especially with convert like C R O programs out today. You're really just trying to throw darts on a board and see which one sticks. And nowadays it's really, really difficult to be able to run the number of tests that it really takes in order to create a successful C R O program. When you're doing UI and ux, you're trying to figure out what's going to move the needle with conversion rates, what's going to move the needle with average order value? What's going to move the value the needle with lifetime value or churn? And when you're looking at these metrics, you're specifically having to figure out what benchmarks can you work with, what are you going to be able to move the needle on and how are you going to be able to do that?

And when you don't know why your customers are not completing their purchase or why they're not buying from you, but you're just throwing darts on the board to figure out, well maybe this will work or maybe this will work. You have to have such a large volume of tests in order to conduct that level of work. And when you do, are you really measuring how much it costs you to run that large volume of tests? So Brett, to give you an example, well when we think about running, let's say 50 tests and you get one winner, maybe you get two winners out of it. Okay, so then two out 50 you got correct. Well what about the 48 out of the 50 that you got losses in? Did you ever put that into your equation about the investment that it took to not only launch those 48 other tests but that the losses that you incurred while running those 48 other tests?

And so I think a lot of this common mistakes that we're seeing across a lot of the merchants that are how launching C r O programs that are doing UX UI work is that they're not paying attention to number one academic research that's already been done and used nowadays. So there's two companies that we really heavily rely on. One is Nielsen Norman Group and the second is Bay Mart out of Copenhagen. And we love these institutions because they use hundreds of thousands of hours of usability research so that we don't actually have to AB test every single thing. We know what are the common issues that people face from a navigation copy user journey flow perspective for, and especially with Bay Mart, it's all around the e-commerce funnel, P L P P D P cart checkout, these are all common terms in the e-commerce space and they have massive reports telling you the 300 things not to do on your product page.

And so leveraging that and having that say, I don't need to test that, I'm just going to make sure I don't do this and I follow these heuristics, is the best starting point for a lot of brands that just need quick wins. So if you're going to do quick wins, don't do quick wins based on, hey, I just want to test this, do quick wins based on academic research. That's actually been done because e-commerce has actually been around, it's funny to think about it, it's been around for more than 20 years. It's wild. And I wouldn't even think of that as 2020 long years. But we have that long period of time that people have been purchasing and buying online and there's a lot of research to start with. So I would say number one, starting with research is really important, but two, when you start doing a C R O program, pay attention to what are the tests instead of trying to do such a large volume of tests, what about trying to find one to five tests that you could be able to do that are much more insightful, that are bigger swings?

And I think that's the big difference, what we're focused on here in anta, but what we've done across with athletic grains, what we've done at Dollar Shade Club is that we actually said we don't want to launch 200 tests this month. We want to launch 20 tests this month. And out of the 20 tests we have such a higher win ratio because we've done so much research to back what the hypothesis was in the first place and why we believe that was causing an issue. So we're using qualitative data to figure out the why. And that's like going to, maybe, it might be going too detailed into this, but when you figure out what is an opportunity, you have to discover why that is a problem and discover before you start creating a bunch of solutions and trying to have an A B C D E F test, which will take probably 60 days to run in a very large volume site, why not just find one or two solutions because you actually did the work to figure out what the problem was in the first place. And I think that that's a common issue that people have.

Brett:

I love this so much. And then I've talked about this topic with a few other people and there's this kind of general consensus or a lot of people talk about it where you say, Hey, if you want to make a test, you got to isolate each little variable, otherwise you run a test and you won't know was it this button or this headline or whatever. But thing about that is if you make a small headline tweak or you make a button color change, most likely you're not going to see any difference, right? It's a small change. You probably won't see any measurable difference. If you do, it probably won't move the needle at all. And then how long is it going to take for you to get to something meaningful? So do you really want to know exactly what change it was that made the difference, whether it with the button color headline or a number of things, or do you just want to get the good results? You just want to get, do you just want to improve those problems? And I love how you outline that. How can we increase average order value? How do we increase lifetime value or reduce churn? And so looking at where are we off, where do we need to see improvements, what are our hypotheses behind why we need to see improvements? And then let's make some tests that are likely to move the needle and such a smart approach there. Any examples or any specific wins you can map out there following your approach?

Nirav:

Yeah. Well let me go a little bit deeper into the approach, Brett, and I'll give you an example please. While working through that. So one of our clients being a large e-bike company, they, what we wanted to look at is where does the opportunity exist? And a lot of times it's really hard to quantify where the opportunity exists, but if you have benchmark information specifically, to give you an example, let's take add to cart rates. And when we look at add to cart rates, specifically in the leisure space or in the activities and hobby space, we can be able to get a large benchmark of saying, okay, based on this size of product average, like average order value is above $500 in this specific vertical, we're expecting add to cart rates to be at roughly 15%. And that's what the industry benchmark is. So that provides us a lot of useful

Brett:

Information. And you mean 15%, 15% of people with an add to cart go ahead and complete checkout? Is that what you mean? Or 15% of business add to cart?

Nirav:

Yeah, 15% of you visitors add to cart. Got it. So in that industry it was a little bit lower just simply because the average order value is so much higher. You're selling products that are 2000, $2,500 a year. A, your add to cart brains are as high as you would get from a, let's say a $10 product or a $20 product. And so once we know that that's 15%, then what we can do is say, okay, where are you performing as a merchant? And so when we looked at the merchant, they were performing at close to around 10%. So now we have a 5% differential. And we can quantify that by taking their visitors and taking their average value and saying, look, this 5% differential, if we are able to get you from 10% to what the industry benchmark is at 15%, this one test alone or this one area that we're going to focus on is going to bring you 12 million in additional revenue. So yeah, because

Brett:

A 50% increase going from 10% to exactly 15%, 50% increase in add to carts. And ideally you would think that it'd be the same percentage of add to carts end up closing, and so could be a 50% lift. Right?

Nirav:

Exactly. But that's where Brett people don't actually take the time to quantify the actual money value behind it. What you traditionally see in the Optimizely based approach was this democratization around testing programs that says, Hey, everybody pitch your hypothesis everybody, and let's vote on which one we want to launch. And that whole approach misses one big factor is how much money is this worth? Because if I have a 20 million opportunity on one hand and a $10 opportunity, on another hand, I don't care if I got 99 votes on this $10 opportunity I'm using, I'm going after the 20 million opportunity.

Brett:

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's so interesting and I think that first of all, that's so brilliant. What are we going to test and why? And then if we do test it, let's just say we find a winner. Let's say our mind is blown, we have an answer, we go in a different direction. What could that do for us in terms of sales? It's kind of just a shift in mindset. I remember meeting a guy who was early on a team on Amazon, and then he was there for quite a while and he said towards the end of his stay there, as they would pitch new ideas to management for a new business use case or whatever, it had to be worth a billion dollars to even be considered. How would this idea generate a billion dollars in new revenue or otherwise? Why are we doing it? Because that's not going to move the deal enough. Now that's thinking huge Amazon scale, this was probably a decade ago too, but we still need to have a similar mindset with our business. Okay, got finite resources and finite time. So which tests am I going to run? And let's think about not only am I likely to win here, what problem am I trying to solve, but how much money could this make me? And if you know those things, then you're off to the right start.

Nirav:

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And if we're talking about the mid-market brands that you and I both speak to, brands that are doing 25 million all the way up to $200 million, you're looking for opportunities that are going to move the needle for you in millions of dollars of range, not in thousands of dollars of range. And if you're spending thousands of dollars, but your actual program to run UX and UI and C R O costs you $20,000, $30,000, it's not going to pay for itself and you're just wasting time and money to while doing it. So definitely have to find your r o. I

Brett:

Love it, man. That's so good. Awesome. So case studies examples, what are some of the tests you have run? And walk us through the process of how you got to that test and then what that did.

Nirav:

Totally, totally. So in the case with the E-bikes, one of the things that we really found from a lot of our deep research was that the more people that use search, the higher intent those people were, and that if we drove more people to search, the more people we could have to purchase. And this was claiming from both quantitative research that we could see those numbers, but also qualitative wise, when we spoke with the user studies to figure out, hey, what is it that you're, where are you getting stuck? What are you not being able to find? And they said the search was the part that was a missing component. And so finding that we actually did things to elevate the search results to make it not only more prominent, but also bring more focus specifically to that area, improve the search results, improve the empty search results, et cetera.

And by doing that, we saw a nice lift in not only the add to cart rates, but also the conversion rates. So the process that we used was very similar to what I was mentioning, which is one, let's focus on best practices and let's just eliminate all the common leaky funnels that could approach. Number two, look for benchmarking opportunities. Where are we seeing some lower rates compared to industry benchmarks? So we're seeing low add to cards. And then as we dug back to go deep into figure out why was the add to cart lower, we're seeing that people were not able to find the search leverage search and use search results as a result of that. So then we solution specifically around search versus solutioning around everything. When you think about add to cart, it could be a myriad of different issues, content can be a problem, PLPs could be an issue.

The way that you're showing imagery could be a problem. Instead of trying to solve every one of those, we needed to run some usability studies to actually figure out where are customers getting stuck. Both polls and surveys are really good, but also interviewing cus customers and some unique things we've learned about when one of our clients, another case study example is with M GM E, which is a footwear premium, luxury footwear brand for per women and men. And they make shoes out of Italy. Great, great client, great product. And one of the things we did was we did a usability study with them on their phones and on their desktop. And the craziest things we've observed Brett, but on your phone, when people are shopping and going through the user journey, they're being impacted by 40 different things when they're on their phone, their kids shouting from the side, totally husband's asking them a question, their TV's going on there may be

Brett:

Driving, I probably shouldn't infest it, but sometimes I'm look at stuff like at a red light or whatever, and that's probably not safe, but it happens. Yeah,

Nirav:

It happens. And on a phone that, and we saw the eyes going everywhere. We saw their focus going everywhere. And then on a desktop they were like eyes were concentrated, they were reading the full pages and you barely saw any movement. And just by doing that form of user study specifically with M G E, we were able to start ascertaining When we were looking at specific rates that we wanted to improve, we had to say, okay, this is what we're dealing with on mobile, so let's do things that really concentrate, focus on mobile and not put too much content in front of them because we just know we have such limited attention. So speed is of course important, but two, what are we trying to showcase to them? How are we trying to merchandise in front of them? Because if we only have such limited attention, maybe one or two product offerings is much better than the entire catalog where on desktop we could show a lot more, we have much more focus from them.

So doing use user studies helps us really understand that specific market. And while that mobile to desktop example can be probably true for many other brands, this is where brands like Athletic Greens have done really well. And another brand that we work with called Cloudera Lab, which is a men's skincare line, has done really well with one product called their serum, is that they keep such a centralized focus on just one thing. And the reason why I love that is because if you have such limited attention and they already have so much cognitive load on them because they're being distracted by 50 different things, what can you show them as just the one thing with one message that makes it easy for them to buy? And that's what I've always loved about athletic grains from their product line is that they made it so simple.

Now, not every merchant can only sell one product. I'm not advocating now destroy your entire cashflow. I can only sell one product. But at the same time, if you're on a mobile journey and you're trying to bring somebody who's brand new to you, can you maybe showcase and kind of merchandise one or a few products at minimum and then keep it so narrow because you already know that the cognitive load is so high and that they have no attention span. So what can you do to drive them in versus trying to serve them everything? One of my friends, Antonio would always say, don't tell the whole story. Tell a story. Yeah,

Brett:

I love that. Don't tell the whole story. Tell a story. And yeah, if you think about that, someone may be really interested in a product, they see a YouTube video, they see a Facebook ad, they get a referral from somebody, they're interested in one product, but then we get to your landing page or category page, they see all these other options and they think, well, maybe I should consider this, maybe I should consider that. And any confusion, any slowdown in the process, you just increase the odds That person's going to bail, they get distracted, they got to put their phone down. Exactly. They got to the light changes or whatever, a kid needs them and then they never come back. And so that's really, really smart. So don't just tell the whole story, tell a story. Yeah. So how do you help someone think about that then if it's, maybe I've got a large product line, but I know these are my two or three core products. So how do you help someone narrow that down to decide what are we going to showcase on mobile? What are we going to showcase on desktop? What is that experience going to be like?

Nirav:

I think you have to treat things Brett as micro journeys from how you segment your channel. So looking at various channels of where you're getting your incoming traffic from, whether it's paid search, organic, et cetera. And once you understood where that journey is going, then you can be able to ascertain which set of products can be merchandised specifically for that journey. And so when you're defining your initial landing page to your product detail page to where you're showing the catalog and the cart checkout experience, you have to then go through that experience and say, what was the ad that we served for them? What is the emotion that we're trying to elicit from that? And then where are we serving in terms of trust factors, testimonials, product information, et cetera, to really gear them into that one core product or two core product offering and move it forward from there.

But specifically to answer your question, finding not only, you have to know where your segment's coming in from that way you know what best to serve them because it's not always just going to be the two most popular product. It's going to be based on the copy and the messaging that you're saying all the way starting from the ad. And I think that's another problem where a lot of agencies who are doing traditional C R O fail and we failed at it. I I'll say very clearly that for so many years at my agency, we failed at this, was we were looking so myopically at just the website perspective and say, well, I don't pay attention to what comes before it. That's a black box. What I pay attention to is once you land on my site, what do I do with that? And it's like, but if you don't pay attention to what came beforehand, how do you know what messaging was being served? How do you know what emotions were being elicited? How do you know what was there? And so if you only pay attention to one area, you're missing out on the reason why that person clicked over in the first place and what were they being promised?

Brett:

Yeah. And that's thinking about just looking at the website as a silo, that's looking at it from your perspective. Yes. Not the shopper's perspective. The shopper's coming in with this context, these expectations, these hopes, these dreams, promises made in an ad, and they want consistency. They want to see what they see in the ad or wherever they saw you, and then they want to know immediately that they're in the right place when they land on your site and that you're going to deliver on those promises. So really, really smart. Other case studies you would reference, but both of those were brilliant. Any other case studies you would reference?

Nirav:

Yeah, I mean, another reference that I would have was say there's a really great company that we've been working with for the last couple years is a company called Thesis and they sell nootropics and their product really works well. And one of the things that we've really learned and identified, and this came before we even started, was that their quiz experience was their main kind of core acquisition funnel. And a lot of brands are starting to go this quiz approach and they take say, Hey, don't have a starting point, take the quiz and learn about the products. But especially when you have a product that requires more education and people don't really know what to start from, quizzes can be a really, really great place to work with. But one of the things we learned in the quiz experience that a lot of people don't understand and see is that they launch these quizzes without understanding what are we trying to do in terms of delivering value.

So when you have a quiz that's too short, meaning you're not asking enough questions to ascertain what it is about that person, the psychological behavior of that person is like, Hey, you didn't ask me enough, so before you deliver me, Hey, these are your results. You are, you're making the consumer feel I answered a few questions and now you're delivering a result, how is that result even possible? And so you're losing them in that track. So just by making this fundamental change, by understanding that user behavior and watching them go through the quiz process and seeing how they processed it, we learned that by asking a lot more questions and making the quiz even lengthier, which is normally the opposite, you would see from most people say, Hey, make your quiz shorter. That's the reason people are abandoning because this quiz is too long. It's like, no, no, no, people are actually not purchasing because the quiz isn't long enough. And so interesting, the more we actually got into it till a length process, the higher the conversion rates got, the higher the overall clickthrough were. And people who completed the quiz were at such a higher rate of conversion and people were willing to go through it because the questions, as long as they're relevant, we'll stick through the process. And it's not about how many questions you answer purely, it's about making sure that those questions were valuable, that it felt like it was dictating towards what the result was going to be.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so good. I think some people's advice, whether you're talking about ad creative videos and stuff, is make it shorter. People don't have good attention spans, but that's not really the point. It's make it better, make it relevant, make it speak to the person. And the same could be said with quizzes. People know people have a sense of what does this question have to do with anything that I'm shopping for? Or you ask a really good question, I think this person's smart. This person asks good questions. And we've seen this work a lot. We've done a lot in the beauty space and personal care and hair coloring space worked with a number of clients and help them scale. And we found the same thing that a slightly longer quiz is better because people want to get this right. The target market was women. A lot of people, a lot of ladies try to cover the gray in their hair with color.

They want to get it right. They're not messing around, they don't want to use your product and then live with a mistake for a long time. And so they would rather you ask them questions. And I love that perspective that if you don't ask enough, they're like, wait a minute, this is not a, isn't a recommendation. This is just some canned thing. This whole quiz is a hoax. But I also wonder, because we see it's on the video side too longer, YouTube videos, two minutes, three minutes, someone engages that long, they're much more predisposed to sell. I also kind of wonder if someone engages more with a quiz and they spend more time with you, likely more, more inclined to convert, I would think at that point.

Nirav:

And that's exactly what we learned, was that they were much higher to convert once they actually spent that much time with you because they realized that you're spending the time to ask them all these right questions. And again, I go back to was that question relevant? So don't ask questions simply to ask another question, make sure it's relevant. And one of the things you said early on is what's one of my pet peeves when it comes to UX and ui? And one of my pet peeves is just asking something up there simply because it's satisfying the requirement of, Hey, I put a quiz up there or I made this hack in the conversion funnel. It's like, I hate that if it's not relevant. That's my biggest pet peeve is that you're doing a quiz just because everybody else is doing a quiz. So if you're selling pistachio milk, for example, and you put a quiz up there, what is the quiz about at the end product you're selling is just going to be a pistachio milk and there's no other versions of it. What am I doing it for? Flavor That doesn't make any sense. So don't use a quiz that's irrelevant. Help me find the right

Brett:

Flavor of pistachio milk.

Nirav:

Yes. Which

Brett:

By the way, I like pistachios. I like pistachios a lot, but is pistachio milk good? That sounds disgusting.

Nirav:

I have no idea. I haven't tried one yet, but I know it exists. Yeah,

Brett:

That's hilarious. So yeah, why are you asking me a quiz? I don't need aqui. You sell two colors of t-shirts. I don't need a quiz for t-shirts. But yes, if it's something like nootropics where I've heard about it on podcasts and I know people are talking about it, but it almost sounds like I'm trying an experimental drug, and so I want to make sure I get it right or hair color, I do not want to screw this up. Quiz makes a ton of sense. So yeah, exactly. Not blindly following the trends that are out there, but how is this relevant to my shopper's journey? What am I making easier? What am I making better? What am I making clearer or am I just checking box? Yeah, totally makes sense.

Nirav:

And wherever you can deliver value. Yeah,

Brett:

Yeah, for sure. Deliver value. Any other pet peeves is just always fascinating to me. People that have a keen eye and are really good at what they do, I love to know what are their pet peeves. It's fascinating to me. I

Nirav:

Would say so many of my pet peeves are around growth hacking. I've been around growth hacking for a long time that some of the tactics that people use. So to give you an example, we worked with a very popular bone broth company and they were growth hacking. And they were looking at, okay, how do I get a O V to or my CAC to go up against my L T V and say, Hey, if my CAC is $90, I have to sell at least $99 worth of bone broth and be able to make a profit off the first purchase. I get that. But then they get them into a subscription program. So to buy $90 worth of bone broth meant that you're buying close

Brett:

To it would be a lot of broth, man.

Nirav:

It's a lot of broth. You're selling 1516 bone broths and then you're getting them on a 14 day subscription and then you're seeing a churn happen, a churn rate of close to 80%. And they were questioning, they were boggled. Why are people churning? And it's like you just sold 'em 15 boxes of both broth and then you got another one shipped 15 days later. And you're asking the question, why isn't this working? And it's purely because they're playing the

Brett:

Numbers game only. They gave up water and all other beverages and just drank bone broth. That would be the only way they're going to consume that much

Nirav:

All the way. Yes. If they drank it like coffee at some point. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett:

But

Nirav:

This is what bothers me on that growth hacking side is that you're, you stop paying attention to the qualitative or what the consumer experiences and you're just hacking away at the numbers and you're forgetting that brands are not built from just purely hacking away at these numbers. They can help elevate you, but if you create a brand experience that really sucks because of this, you're, you're not finding that right middle ground between brand and growth. You're too on the growth side. And the other one is still, I see a lot of these spinning wheels on our websites, the wheel of fortunes. And I cannot understand why certain companies need a wheel of fortune. I understand that if you're a gaming company or you're selling toys, by all means use a wheel of fortune, but you're selling makeup or underwear. I don't know why a wheel should ever be used when it's next to a piece of underwear

Brett:

And I guess you got to can test it or whatever. I've never once in my life, and I'm an avid shopper, I shop from tons of Shopify stores, never once put my email address in there. And obviously I know how they work. I'm a marketing guy and we run email as a service. But I have put my name into a lot of popups because I'm like, well, I'm about to buy this. I do want to get the 10% off, but the wheel never done the wheel. Even one ton.

Nirav:

Yeah. So I'll say with you, yeah,

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So what's interesting to me, and as we talk about the bone broth company, that's sort of like your KPIs are driving your strategy rather than here's strategy and delighting customers and making good business decisions. That's our strategy. We got to have KPIs, we got to measure stuff and see how we're doing, but the numbers aren't in charge of everything. We're trying to give customers a wow experience and get them to buy from us forever. We're not just trying to optimize a K P I. We're not trying to hack away at a K P I.

Nirav:

Yeah. So I can't agree with you more, Brett.

Brett:

Love it. Love it. So you said something to me before we hit record that may be a little bit controversial actually. I think what we just talked about could be a little controversial, but I think people are going to agree for the most part. But you talked about, you gave me a perspective on headless, which headless design may maybe describe what that is really quickly for those that don't know, but you've got a unique take on headless, so explain what it is and what's your take on it.

Nirav:

So a headless environment is taking the front end layer off your, let's say your Shopify store, your Magento store, whichever platform you're on and saying, Hey, I don't want it to live in that platform anymore. I want it to own my entire front end. And so you're lifting your liquid theme or whatever the kind of setup you have and saying, I'm going to host the webpages now I'm going to make sure that I can control the full gamut of it. And now because of that, I will technically load faster as a site because I'm now not having, being so dependent on the monolithic platform on the backend side of it. And that's what traditional headless e-commerce is.

Brett:

And what's usually driving that decision is part of it just because it's like cool and it's a buzzword buzzword. People are like, well, we're headless now. Yeah. Or what, what's like, what's driving that decision to be headless?

Nirav:

I would say there's a couple factors, Brett. Number one, speed is the most enticing place because so many e-commerce stores are slow and they think that that's the quick and fast solution. They say, Hey, and this is coming from developers, this is coming from agencies that can make a lot more money from being doing a headless build because they're close to 150 to $200,000 build. And so that's where a lot of agencies and a lot of people want to play, and it's fun new software. And so they'll say, Hey, let's go headless because it's going to make your speed a lot faster and it's just not true. Can you build a fast headless site? Yeah. But can you build a really fast loading Shopify site? Hell yeah. You, it all depends on the architecture that you use, whichever one you want to use you can use and you can still bake both fast. But I would say earlier the answer to that was no. And the reason I can say that is been 2019 and 2018, I launched Roth's headless in 2018 being their C T O and then worked with being working with Athletic Greens. And we launched Athletic Greens headless in 2019 along with molecule with air filter company as well. Asmatic,

Brett:

Beautiful, beautiful product molecule.

Nirav:

And we've launched some headless because their platforms at that time in 2018 and 2019, their platforms were inherently slow. And we tested that because their T T L, which is their time to first bite, and to be able to get that kind of first load coming in from 'em was extremely long. It was like 0.8 seconds. So if you were saying, Hey, I want my site to load in one second, and your system takes 0.8 seconds to get there, you only have 0.2 seconds of a gap to say your site's going to get to one second load time. And so we had to make a decision at that point during those times to go headless because the technology was not moving up and performing at this space at war. And nowadays all of that has flipped entirely. Shopify has rebuilt their entire architecture in such a great way that their TTLs are close to 0.2 seconds, which is a massive 400% decline in T T L, which is great.

But also just their infrastructure and their setup allow you to build a really, really fast loading site on them. So you would say, but why is my Shopify site slow? 99% your site is slow, is because it has bad architecture and bad theme code on it. You're using a theme that has way too much crap in it. Or two, you have your Google tag manager or your segment set up whatever's loading your pixels. It's not optimized. And so that's taking things off. So if I just unload your G T M and say, Hey, turn it off, I guarantee I can make your site load a hell of a lot faster. And so there's a lot of these different solutions out there to make your site faster. And headless is not the only way to make it faster. I can make a really slow loading site and headless too if I just architect it really badly. So got it. The same case.

Brett:

So if your Shopify store is running slowly, it might not be Shopify's fault, probably your fault or your, the designers, developers, whatever. So you got to fix that. So then when are the use cases when you might consider now, because the speed is probably not the deciding factor, when should you go headless or when should you consider headless?

Nirav:

Yeah, so I'm going to answer that in one second, Brett. The only one other factor I wanted to make sure I brought up was that people say I don't launch as many features and functionalities in Shopify. Shopify just doesn't have enough. So I want to go headless because of that. And again, that's a fallacy that there's enough app integrations and systems out there, but you can also use React and View jss as JavaScript platforms to add the additional layers of functionality that you previously wouldn't have been able to. So that goes to kind of going towards your answer, the earlier question that you just posed, which is, when is the right time to go headless? Well, I think that headless when, and you have a set of engineers like a 10 to 20% engineering team, and you want to be able to feel like you have more control of everything because you're willing to pay for that control.

That's might be a good time because at that point you can say, Hey, I'm willing to take the risk. I want to take the risk so I can control every little facet of my site experience, so exactly the way I want it to, and I can be able to use so many different third party systems to make that happen and unwilling to spend the engineering costs that requires. And that answer to it is there's a few companies out there who have 30, 40, 50 person engineering teams, but even those including brands like Dollar Shape Club who've had large engineering teams have gone back to times where they're not headless and they're not kind of using this kind of customer architecture. They don't want to waste engineering power on that. And so even that, I bring that point up, there is a strong contention that unless you really can afford that, normally most of these brands, whether they're Unilever owned or not, they're cutting back their engineering power. Why do we need to keep paying for this when I don't need it anymore, right? Yeah.

Brett:

Don't need it. Or are we really getting wins? Are we getting enough wins with having control of every little aspect of the website to make sense to have this extra cost of going headless? Or is it more of a lateral move? So yeah, yeah, continue.

Nirav:

Yeah. And the big risk with going headless is you're owning hosting again. And remember the day is when you had to worry, is my psych going to go down? Is my checkout going to go down? You? That worry is back on your plate now because if it does go down, it's your fault. It's not Shopify's fault anymore. And that was the reason why we moved to platforms like cloud hosted platforms. We saw that whoever's been around since the Magento days, I have, that's, that shit went down all the time. Me too. Why police workers

Brett:

When it went down all time, it goes down at the worst possible times, right before a Mother's Day sale, or God forbid, yes, right before Black Friday. And then what are you going to do? Right? And that's where, yes, yeah, there's a reason we all kind of went to the cloud and it rather than self-hosted for the most part. So yeah, totally makes sense. Yes, totally makes sense. The

Nirav:

Cases where I do see headless being still dominant and being really good is that there's two different places when you're launch, when you're having a brand that is multinational, that you have multiple different storefronts. Shopify has now kind of done a pretty good job of growing global. And I love the international plays that they've made now because it's actually enterprise ready. And so being able to have one single store that you can be able to take internationally can be really helpful. But there was time period where you had to have multiple individual storefronts, but that meant that you had to have multiple individual front ends. So every single, let's say you existed in the uk, you existed in Germany, you existed in China, you existed in Australia. You actually needed to maintain 10 different code bases or 10 different front ends. And that's a part where with athletic greens, still today, it's a headless site experience.

And the reason we built it as a headless site experience is what we wanted one unified experience across the board. Didn't matter which country you were buying from, that the front end was one combined experience and then we could push it to separate checkouts. So that way if you needed to transact in the uk, you needed to transact in Germany, you could do so, and the purchasing and the seller record could be in that country, but that you could still maintain one common front end. And that solves so many, so much engineering problems and it solves so many experience problems and actually elevated the ss e o of the core parent domain because the parent domain owned all that ranking versus it being out to individual sub-domains, whether it be athletic greens, UK athletic greens, Italy, et cetera. You didn't have to own separate, separate domains. It could all just be part of one core parent domain.

Brett:

Totally makes sense. Love it. Love it. Nav, this has been fantastic. Our time has flown by. I could keep talking about this stuff with you. Love your passion, love your skill, love the insights and what you guys are doing. Talk to us a little bit about ADA design. So obviously we got a really good flavor, really good, really good feel for what you do. But tell us a little bit about the agency. Are you accepting clients? Are you all booked up? What is it? What that like?

Nirav:

We are accepting clients. Thank you so much, Brett. And NADA is really an inter-agency. What I mean by that is that we're taking a sli taking a different approach to the agency model. Typical agencies work on an hourly business model. So they're trying to rack up hours for the most part. They work in silos so that you don't really know what's happening behind it and that they're working with fractionated resources because that's a typical agency model, especially when we're fractionating resources. One person is put on 5, 10, 15 accounts. And so for us, we said we want to be able to create a better experience for the merchants in places that we work with. So we're not doing billable hours where we're working purely on a retainer and we're saying you getting dedicated team members for that. So when I say dedicated, it means only working for you.

Dedicated, yeah. Point to sleep, waking up to you only. And we're fully transparent. So that's a digital product team that's fully formed, ready to go to work with the brands that are there in a transparent way. So every desire developer, project manager, QA is on all of your calls and all of your messages and being very clear. And that has allowed us to really be able to work in the same KPIs that they're going after is our mission. So we're no longer trying to rack up hours because that's somehow going to make us more money. We're saying if your conversion rates go up by 50% and that's what you want to go after, let's all go after it. Because the more you are successful, the more we can be successful as a result. And so that's what Anata is. As an agency, we kind of work with brands in that capacity, and we work with mainly brands that are in the mid-market to side. So any brands that are doing at least 25 million online and upwards, we're working with traditionally D two C brands and digitally native brands as well.

Brett:

Love it, man. Love it so much. What about those that are listening and they're just like, dude, I got to learn more from neuro. How can they do you have free resources, you have other podcasts you're on, and I can link to all this in the show notes if you do.

Nirav:

Primarily I'm linking through everything through my LinkedIn profile, so I'm posting a lot of content there both through my personal profile as well as the company's profile. And I will be on tour speaking as well.

Brett:

That's right, man, we were just talking about that before we record. Yes. I'm going to try to get you on some stages, dude, because you're really, really good and more people need to hear from you. So I'll link to your LinkedIn profile as well, but it's ni of N I R A V, chef, s h e t h. So look him up on LinkedIn. Ni of You crushed it, man. This was super fun. Thank you so much.

Nirav:

Thank you so much, Brett, for having me. This was such a great conversation.

Brett:

So good. So good. As always, we would love to hear from you. What would you like to hear more of on the show? What'd you think about this episode? If you listen to this and you thought, oh man, this person I know has got to hear this episode, share with them and leave us that review. If you've not done that already helps other people find the show. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

‍

YouTube is a different beast. It has arguably greater reach than Facebook, with more ad inventory available. 

But it’s not easier to scale on. And it’s not easier to measure. 

For brands that get it right, YouTube can accelerate growth like no other.

Take Dr. Squatch as an example. They scaled from $3 million per year to over $150 million per year, in large part due to the success of their YouTube ads. The same goes for Manscapped, William Painter, Organifi, and DOZENS more.

This episode is unique because Jacques Spitzer and I interview each other! Jacques is the CEO of Raindrop (the creative agency behind Squatch, Manscapped, Shady Rays, and more) and the podcast host of Marketing People Love. 

OMG and Raindrop have collaborated on several campaigns (including NATIVE), with Raindrop handling the creative side and OMG handling the media and strategy. 

In this show, we discuss:

• Why most brands get YouTube creatives wrong and how to fix it.
• Why measuring YouTube performance is harder than most and why you’re probably not measuring YouTube properly.
• How to truly achieve “exit velocity” with YouTube.
• Getting the proper view of brand lift, search lift, and halo effect from YouTube ads.
• Creative breakthroughs and much, much more.

‍

Transcript

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO, OMG Commerce. And today is a really unique, really fun, really high energy, blow your mind, awesome type of episode. This is a joint episode. This episode is going to be published on E-Commerce Evolution, but also on the Marketing People Love podcast because me and Jacques Spitzer, our joining forces and we're interviewing each other and it's like I'm asking questions, he's asking questions, but it just comes together in a pretty beautiful, organic way. And so we're talking about how to scale on YouTube, why most people misunderstand YouTube and how to make it work. I think you're going to love it. So here we go. Let's dive in and let's talk YouTube ads with Jacques Spitzer.

Jacques:

Brett, we are going to be, I know diving into topics that you and I we text about late at night after

Brett:

Yours. Your

Jacques:

15 kids are down for bed. I just add one every time I talk to you. Yeah, it's

Brett:

Only a eight, but it's

Jacques:

Only eight.

Brett:

It feels like 15 at night, so I think

Jacques:

You're like something. Yeah. But we talk about, and I'm so excited to surface some of the things that we talk about, what's working, what is really, really working is just what we get excited about. And so let's dive into some topics around the all impressive YouTube platform that so few people understand how to leverage

Brett:

True man and you know, speak at a lot of events. I speak at a lot of events every time I do almost. I ask people, Hey, who hears by show of hands running ads on YouTube? And it's always less than 20%. Sometimes it's 10%, and then people that have run it are often frustrated by it and they don't know why it's not working. And so I think we've got these two really unique perspectives. You've seen a lot of the campaign side. You're a creative guy, creative agency, the ins and outs of making killer YouTube content. I'm more on the campaign and strategy side, although I understand creative pretty well too. So I think this combo of ideas is going to be pretty powerful. So look out after you listen to this, plus, after we tell you about a little special opportunity that won't be right for everybody, but for some people when you can come hang out with me and Jock, I think people will be ready for YouTube. I think they'll be excited, motivated, inspired for YouTube.

Jacques:

Yeah. Can't wait to talk about that event later in the podcast.

Brett:

Exactly. Exactly. So I think we kind of, cool, let's talk about YouTube in general. And I think part of the reason people don't have success with YouTube is because they don't really understand it. They don't understand how people engage with it, what creatives should be like, how people are consuming it. And so I think it'd be kind of cool just to share our perspectives on what is YouTube and how do people interact with it. And so a couple things, and since I talk about YouTube a lot, I've got a few stats that are kind of memorized, but

Jacques:

Give us those juicy stats, Greg, the juicy

Brett:

Stats. So it's over 2 billion active users, which that's kind of a meaningless number anytime you get in the billions our minds just kind of break a little bit. But one set that I love is that in the primetime hours, which we're both longtime ad guys, I still like TV ads. I still enjoy watching how do people advertise on tv? But during those prime time hours, so seven P to 11 p or whatever, more adults engage with YouTube than any cable network. So more people are watching YouTube than any cable network. Also, what's interesting, I'm curious if your son does this. My kids, especially my 12 year old, through my 15 year olds in the evening, if they're watching TV on their own, more often than not they're watching a YouTube creator. They're watching YouTube on their the tv, right?

Jacques:

Absolutely. Yeah. My sons just about turned eight and that that's why I wasn't shocked. I heard the stat that something between 45 to 47% of people consume YouTube on their television. That blew my mind, but it kind of started making sense when I started thinking about with smart TVs, the way that they've just proliferated, it's just a button away and it just changed everything.

Brett:

Yeah, and I think we could even get into some kind of cool ideas on how that shifts creatives just a little bit if you're showing it on the TV versus computer mobile. But what's interesting about that is that I think the key is prime time has become very personalized. Just like everything else. We don't want to just watch a sitcom. We want to watch what we want to watch. And so YouTube is massive. I think it reaches like 97% of all adults. Actually, I may be fibbing on that. It's around 90. Let's go with 90. I think that's right. Of all adults in the US consume YouTube average session durations like 42 minutes. So it's a really lengthy amount of time spent on YouTube. And the way I like to talk about is my dad's 73, he's on YouTube all the time. My six year old son, Benjamin, he's on YouTube all the time. It reaches everybody. And so it, it's a powerhouse and their shopping experiences taking place on YouTube. So people look for unboxing videos and product review videos, and what is the best travel pillow or best noise canceling headphones or best waterproof shoes or whatever. People are searching for products on YouTube as well. So

Jacques:

Pretty cool. And I know this, of course, Google has all their search history. And so it's also for other personalizing whatever content that they're getting served, especially on the ad side, based on what they're interested in their life phase, if they have kids, if they have a dog, all the things that they have searched on Google or on YouTube that would make them the audience for anything that they watch.

Brett:

Exactly. And what's cool about that, what the search behavior is, people searching for stuff on Google or on YouTube, first party data. So you are, you're willingly giving that data to Google. And so Google can then target people based on that. So I know privacy changes are going to shift and who knows what the future's going to look like Exactly. But I think Google's going to be able to target people based on their search behavior for the foreseeable future because not third party data, it's first party data. And so very powerful though for Google to know, Google knows what you're shopping for, Jacque, Google knows when you're looking for the new sports code or the new shoes, they know when you're shopping for stuff. And so they can deliver those relevant ads. So I did see recently a billion shopping experiences happen every day across Google. So that's Google, search, shopping, YouTube, Gmail, like a billion search opportunities a day. So just a massive opportunity. And I've also seen almost half of people bounce between YouTube and search. So I see something on YouTube, I'm just going to search for it. So this combination of Google and YouTube is very powerful.

Jacques:

So Brett, I, I'd love to ask you about this. Recently, on my last two podcasts, I had two people who really, they have brands that have really been able to harness YouTube as a platform and to really grow their top of funnel ad spend to grow their ads, to grow their awareness and actually convert. We're well known as an agency for the work that we did with Dr. Squatch to take them from 3 million to hundreds of millions in sales. And U2 was a huge driver for them in that

Brett:

It was the, and just to brag on you a little bit, jock and on the Dr. Squatch team, you guys won YouTube out of the year, right? Yes. That was

Jacques:

In 2019 or something? No, 2020. So it was during 2020. The height of the pandemic, the height of e-commerce and spending. So it might be the highest converting ad in human history, which is kind of crazy to say. It's kind of crazy to say it's crazy

Brett:

Because it's soap and it's not like, yeah, it's not cheap soap either. I've got some at the house. It's fantastic. So worth it. Yeah. But it's not necessarily, how easy is it to differentiate soap and then get you to buy a premium soap? That's not easy to do.

Jacques:

Yeah, if you go to YouTube, you type in Dr. Squatch, save Your Skin, watch the ad. It's me mesmerizing. But we've since had so many other success stories. I think we probably have five or six of the top performing ads of the last five years, four brands on YouTube scalably. And when I think about that though, I always ask these brands, well, how were you finally able to, and I'm going to think about it in terms of exit velocity or escape velocity, almost like the gravitational pool. How are you able to overcome the uncertainty that is involved with triangulating all these numbers and all this information? Because it doesn't act the same way as a bond of funnel YouTube search, like a pay-per-click ad. And it doesn't act like a meta ad. And no one in the world may know more about this than you, Brett. So I'd love to understand how are you all, I think my question to you is how do you educate your partners to be prepared to understand what is and isn't working for their brand when it comes to YouTube? Because that is, I think, the mystery that's keeping so many brands from unlocking the potential that is YouTube.

Brett:

And it's so glad you brought that up. And this is obviously a topic that I'm very passionate about and you're passionate about too because you, you've seen these brands,

Jacques:

Seen it firsthand.

Brett:

Yeah. You've seen them explode and then you've seen the brands that don't touch YouTube. And of course they can still be successful, but sure it's not the same and they don't become doctors. Dr. Squatch doesn't become Dr. Squatch without YouTube, so Absolutely. So it is possible. I think one thing to keep in mind is that this problem of not understanding what ad is working or what channel or platform is working is the advertising problem. We've always faced it. It is the original advertising problem. I love the PT Barnum quote and the movie The Greatest Showman was kind of loosely based on PT Barnum. Brilliant

Jacques:

Movie is fantastic. I love the sound, I love the soundtrack.

Brett:

We listen to my kids, we like to listen to that in the kitchen while we're making meals. I don't know, it just fits kitchen. I listen

Jacques:

Kids myself just to get myself amped up. So we're on the same page. Brett,

Brett:

Yeah, I like it. But he said that I know that half of my advertising is wasted, I just don't know which half. So that, that's always been the problem. But you got to keep advertising. Now, I'm not suggesting that you just be like, well, it's okay. I'll never know. And so we'll keep going. But I do think you'll never know perfectly, and that's a big deal you'll never be able to fully pinpoint. But thankfully we can get way closer than PT Barnum did back in the day. And so there's a few things to keep in mind. One, I think that the YouTube is often the very top of the funnel. It's often the very first touch point, the very first introduction that someone has with your brand. I think it's a little bit different too in terms of meta for a few reasons. And I'm so glad you brought up, it's different than search, it's different than shopping, it's different than Meta.

It's certainly everyth than the Amazon ads. And so I think with Meta though, one meta is pretty good job of tracking and you often only have one meta login, right? You got one Facebook account, that's it. And all of that tracking was designed a little bit more recently than Google's, even though Google's improved and they got enhanced conversions and things like that. I think Facebook often has a better picture a little bit. But even more than that, YouTube is top of funnel. And usually someone is on YouTube for a purpose. I'm there researching a topic, I'm there watching a specific creator that I like. I'm there looking to research something I'm going to buy. So you are interrupting them. And they were not there to view your ad. So getting them to click and purchase right away is not very common. Not very likely. I think it's a little bit different on Facebook because you don't usually go to Facebook with a specific purpose. You're not going there to, maybe you're going there, totalk a particular person, but usually it's just kind of, oh my

Jacques:

Gosh,

Brett:

I'm just there. I'm just hanging out, right? And so easier to bail and go do something off of Facebook. So I think both of those are important. And then one thing that we, we've got to look at, I want to dig into a couple different metrics because we always want to look at like is this truly creating a lift for our business or is it just a waste? It's just a loss lost opportunity. So some metrics to look at, but one of them is view through conversions. People that see the ad, they don't click because that's not why they were on YouTube. But they do purchase within a given window and usually we like to a one to one to three day window. So there's a few other things I want to dive into there. But I'm curious, Chuck, from your perspective, and so glad you had those interviews with those two awesome brands, what did they say? What were some of the things they said? Yeah, that gave them confidence.

Jacques:

Totally. And as someone who uses YouTube myself and has bought things that I saw on YouTube, yeah, yeah. I recognize that when am on Meta, I click on the ad, it's a direct click. When I'm on YouTube, I usually go to my Safari ad tab and I open up and I'll type in the URL or I will Google search it. And so we see, just because of that behavior, a lot of people there, you

Brett:

Just clarification there, Jacque. So you're watching YouTube, you're watching

Jacques:

On YouTube, on your phone, Google. Yeah,

Brett:

On my phone or your desktop or something that's happen. Or

Jacques:

If it were on my tv, either way I wouldn't click on the link. And I think that immediately changes the way that you can truly track the behavior because the behaviors going to look different. People are going to come, we see they're not sure You do too, that we see a huge lift in branded search. We see a huge lift in Amazon search for the brand. We see all this behavior that's influenced by seeing the ad. It's just the route they take to buy or purchase is indirect. And of course you're going to have people that find out about it, go to the website maybe they don't necessarily buy, they get remarketed on meta. Now it looks like a meta conversion. So it is messy. It is messy, but so it's such a bigger ocean. It's a huge ocean of opportunity. And I want you to react to that before I tell you what our clients have explained. Does that all add up?

Brett:

Oh, it 100% adds up. And so I want add a couple of things to it, but before I forget, I remember my buddy Will Hughes, shout out to Will Hughes who was on the podcast a couple months ago. But he used to run, he was the head of growth at Organifi. We worked together for a while. We were helping with YouTube there. And he always talked about how there's so much more scale on YouTube than on meta. Meta I think is easier. And for some brands, Meta's always going to be your number one source of new customers. But YouTube has more scale, it's a bigger ocean, there's more ad inventory there, more opportunities to sell. It is bigger anyway, so that that's something to keep in mind. But I love this concept of branded search and I'm maybe just completely making up this name, but I'm just going to go for it cause it's fun.

I think the dude name is Mark Pritchard, but he's with a p and g. And if it's not Mark Pritchard, then that's a cool sounding name and sounds smart. I would trust a guy named Mark Pritchard. So we feel good about that. But he said one of the best metrics they track for their brands to see if they're succeeding is how branded searches are growing. Because they know that if, and they know tv that they know tv, they know radio, they know online, but they know if people are searching for you by name, that's when you've got something going. That's when you're no longer just someone who sells stuff online. You are a real brand that people want and that people search out. So that's a big deal. We also look at with this big haircare brand, then we ran YouTube. They were spending three to 600,000 a month, something like that on YouTube.

They had to pause when I was 14.5 first hit because tracking was broken. They just didn't want to keep running. So they paused. We also ran their Amazon ads and their Amazon business, their Amazon branded search cut in half when we paused, paused YouTube. Now we got it all back. Everything was fine. We got it all going again. But just a real clear picture, that branded search comes from somewhere. You don't just wake up with an epiphany of a brand in your head. You saw something that made you want to do that. So that's really important. We also noticed live bearded client, longtime client, if you've got a beard, you got to try live bearded, you'll smell better, your beard will look better. All that. Oh my gosh, you just turned this into a podcast ad. I did me. That was free. That was natural product.

I got to send voice. Oh my gosh. So anyway, we running ads for sample kits and stuff. And so for a while YouTube was clearly the top performer. Then we brought in a third party attribution tool, which I do recommend. I like third party attribution tools. And then there was like, well, I don't know that YouTube's actually working. Look what it says on the third party attribution tool. So we started digging deeper and then we looked at, every time we scaled up on YouTube, every other channel got better and there was a lift in unattributed conversions. Okay? Every time we pulled back on YouTube, the performance of meta got worse. The performance of every other channel got worse. And so it was really clear, actually, we kind of came to the point where I think YouTube's the best driver of new customers right here for this.

Yeah. So anyway, I think there's several things you, you've got to be really smart about what you're measuring and looking at, but the results are there if you have the right creative, we're going to get into that in a minute. And nobody knows that better than you. But then you got to have the right campaign structure, but then you got to measure it. You got to know what are you measuring, how are you measuring it, and are you looking at overall lift and are you looking at it in an intelligent way? So yeah, we'd love to hear what your clients were saying.

Jacques:

Every client that we have has truly broken through it that I keep calling it that escape velocity, but it's so true. True. Oh, that's cool. It's like this because you could just feel these, we work with brands that are doing a hundred million, 200 million, 300 million in online sales, and I can feel the fear from them and not understanding the picture. And the irony a lot of times is that they're getting a monthly budget to YouTube that's the same as one day on Meta. And they're expecting to be able to experience this amazing life-changing result. And I'm like, no, you're spitting into the ocean and expecting to, yeah, no. And so all three of them almost matting, matting, mattingly, Mattingly, I don't even know if that's a

Brett:

Wordly you got to say.

Jacques:

Yeah, I'm sorry. Sometimes it feels like, I remember asking someone when you were in love and every time someone tries to explain it, it's like it. No, I don't know. Somehow we just had the confidence that finally we were in love and YouTube. That confidence works very similarly. It's like all the triangulation of information. They're using post-purchase survey attribution tools. They are using viewed through conversions. They are using lifts on Amazon and Meta. They are using lifts in branded search, trying to see how much of it's lift lifts in direct traffic, all of these pieces to paint the picture. And at some point they go, what if we took that budget from $3,000 a day to $10,000 a day? What if we took it from 10,000 to 20 from 20 to 50, right? And they hit this exit velocity where they're like, oh my gosh, it's all working and we can continue to invest in this way and skill in this way.

Another thing that I think they've shared with me is that they use for their own like CPA targets and everything else, that they typically come up with some sort of CPA target that they're comfortable with. That's not the same necessarily as their true target. They're usually adding somewhere between 40 to 60% to their true CPA target to give themselves that sort of wiggle room of the unknown without feeling like, I know I'm not wasting money. It's just it. It's not as obviously efficient as maybe with some of my other channels. But that gives 'em the confidence to say, okay, as long as we're within this range, I can spend more and more and more. And then they do the reconnaissance on, okay, is this even if half of these V2 conversions are attributed? Or even if a third are, this is really working for us. And it seems to me that it is the ability to gain confidence and honestly just having the chutzpah to do it, there's some point where exactly how do you it? You just put yourself out, you go, but you have, there's a point up until the point that you're trying to get as much information as you can. So that's how they described the process to me. And it's pretty much never strayed from that.

Brett:

I love that. And here's why I believe if you've got the right creative, if you got creative that really hooks the right audience and overcomes objections and makes them really want, you're probably creates desire stirs people to say like, dang, I really want that. If you've got that creative and then you've got the right campaign structure, the right audience structure, you're reaching the right person at the right time in the right way, and then you've got the right bidding and all that, and then you're tracking it as best as you can. And if you've got a landing page that converts and follow up system and all those things, you get that in place going to work. And one of the things that I think is really interesting, and you brought this up earlier, but I couldn't agree more. I've seen this too, a lot of times the companies that get it and spend more on YouTube faster are those that have done stuff on TV before.

Because I think YouTube actually functions quite a bit like tv. We watch it on tv, a lot of us do. But it functions more like that where you're right, a lot of people do just what you do. They watch the YouTube ad, they don't click it, but they go search or they go check it out in some other way. It's the way TV has always worked. You don't click on the TV ad, it just leads to results later. And so often, and actually we just start consulting with without even invested on a brand that's doing well north of 50 million and all they've done is TV and radio and they're growing online and on Amazon. So we're like, wow, I think we could do some stuff with YouTube here for this one. But a lot of people just don't have that confidence. And they grew up kind of in a Facebook world and where they could track everything pretty well. And so YouTube is a little bit scarier. So yeah. Let's do this. Chuck, I want to think about and talk about creative, and this is your wheelhouse. I'm passionate about this too. I just talking about it and I geeking out about ads. But what do you do when you are talking to a client and they want to do YouTube or they're open to doing YouTube? How do you talk about creative in a little different way there than say if they were just doing social?

Jacques:

Totally. So there's a couple things to be keep in mind. One is, you know are right that I very much view it just, I do television, I view as an online version of television, which really isn't true anymore since 45% of it's being watched on television anyway. So you know what I mean does I think even if you think about it that way, it's a television commercial. It is. If 45% of it's being watched on tv, you might as well just call a television commercial. And so it acts the same way. People react to it the same way. And so that's how I think about it. One is ultimately we'll work with a brand. What is your goal? For instance, we collaborate together on native, for example. Native is highly at retail. I can walk into my ride in and grab some, I can ride, walk into cvs,

Brett:

Walmart, Walmart, wherever you want to go,

Jacques:

Right? Yeah. And so the, that's going to be a big opportunity for them to get as much velocity in front of people, get as many eyeballs on their brand because when they go to do their typical shopping experiences, they're there next to a lot of other potential options. Now, if we want to drive people to action right then and there, a lot of times we do more what's called longer form advertising. We try to make an ad that's over a minute and a half long, two minutes, three minutes. And that's something that we've like we do both become known for both. The longer form is definitely harder. And my dad asked me one time when we first launched the original Dr. Squatch video. I'll never forget, I had my wife, my dad, my best friend, everyone I shared it with, they're like, that's just a really long ad. Three minutes is really long. And I said, I

Brett:

See. So you make ads, you just make 'em longer. Good job. Yeah,

Jacques:

Yeah, exactly. They're like, man, that's a really long ad. I mean, it's funny and it's good. I was really long and my reaction to my dad was like, I understand that you feel like it's long, but you to this day still watch a 30 minute infomercial as you flip through your channels on tv.

Brett:

Yep,

Jacques:

Yep. This is just the new generation of the infomercial. Yes, yes. This is just the new generation of an ad that grabs your attention, holds your attention, educates you, helps you understand why you might want the product, and then asks you multiple times to take action. And in fact, it's easier than ever to finally take action. You don't have to call anybody, you can just go to the website. And once I started realizing that we'd done a lot of work with works power tools and some other brands that have actually transitioned a lot of their spend from longer form TV commercials into the internet, ad spend variety. That's how I think about it. The humans have not changed. We have not changed. I totally disagree. When people say humans have short attention spans, we have short consideration spans. And it's something that I've been preaching because I'm like, people

Brett:

Out are really good. That's a really good way to So explain what you mean by that. I think I know where you're going with that. Yeah. And I think I 100% agree, but what does that mean?

Jacques:

So when we launched some of our ad campaigns, let's say it's a three minute spot and it's, it's educational, it's entertaining, it just keeps hitting you with so that you just like, oh man, I just want to keep watching. Even though it's here to watch something else. This is actually more entertaining than what I just clicked on. Our average, average watch times for spots will be anywhere between 28 to 40 seconds. People that could skip after five

Brett:

Seconds. It's insane, by the way. That's insane. Yeah, I look at a lot of ad campaigns, that's a crazy high number for a two and a half or three minute video or even a minute, a and a half, it could awesome, right?

Jacques:

And then the people that complete it will range anywhere from 8% to, it depends on how you're targeting, but up to 20%. So that means one in 10 to one in five, somewhere in that range of people will watch the entirety of the ad. And so there's two reasons why that matters. One is I believe that humans have a sunken cost fallacy on their time. So if they watch the ad, if they're one of those one in five people are watching the ad that long and you're like, you're still watching this ad, you're interested, go ahead and take action, you won't regret it. And we have a money back guarantee, I

Brett:

Already just go find it, go buy it. It

Jacques:

Literally works like that. It's like if you can and in YouTube you have that opportunity to tell that story, maintain the connection, and then have that remind people, you're still watching this. You clearly have interest. Go check it out. You have nothing to lose. So that's why the long form I think does work well because you can close more people that see it for the first time to try it, rather than if they get just pieces of information, a 15 second ad, a 32nd ad, they never really get enough to stop and get their attention and then feel like they have to take action, then they're great as reminders or they're great. If you're truly an omnichannel brand and you're going to do a ton of damage at retail, a ton of damage, damage on Amazon, then I'm like, great. Run a bunch. I mean, I would run a bunch of fifteens and thirties or even bumper ads. We make a ton of bumper ads too. Little six second reminders. So creatively, that's how we think about it. It's just like how do you get someone to care about your brand and then actually listen and then actually take action? And you would think all advertising is that, but I think a lot of times it's just not, unfortunately.

Brett:

Yeah, I love the comparison that this really is a short form infomercial. If you're trying to drive direct conversions or as direct as is possible with YouTube, and there's still going to be a much higher percentage that search for later, go to a later see it on meta click, things like that. But if you want to drive conversions, you do need that longer form video because the more time someone spends with your brand, that the more likely they are to purchase. And one of the things, and I don't 100% love this advice, but I think it's illustrative and it's kind of good. I remember hearing Dan Kennedy, are you Dan Kennedy fan? Are you familiar with him at all? Maybe conference and yeah, she's with Russell Brunson now, but okay, he used to have the biggest marketing conference and then this was kind of pre trafficking conversion summit.

Anyway, Dan Kennedy, brilliant guy, but he used to speak at all the Zig Ziglar conferences and stuff like that. And he would say would always sell from Sage. So he sold this thing called Magnetic. It was a training course on how to market the way he does. And so he said, I never look at feedback forms. I don't care. I don't care what the feedback form says. I don't care if they like my hair or my suit. All I look at is the receipts who purchased, who bought from my talk. And I actually looking at feedback forms, I think there's some things you can learn there, but all he cared about was the results. What leads to sales? And when we look at that and we, we've looked at clients who run same version of an ad. One that's 30 seconds, one that's a minute 15, the minute 15 often has 5, 10, 10 x more conversions than the shorter version. But to your point, short versions can be great for reminders, for remarketing, for getting you to purchase in stores. It all works together. But that's where the creative strategy comes into play.

Jacques:

And I never want to set someone up for the wrong expectations. No one's ever scaled a brand off of 15 second YouTube ads.

Brett:

Correct? Doesn't happen. Doesn't

Jacques:

Happen. It just doesn't exist. So it's like, yeah, I'm not going to tell someone what it does. And it makes sense. It's just math. It's just math. It's like if you're going to reach people and they're willing to give you, I mean, because that's an average, right? So let's say 25% of people one in four is willing to watch 75% of your ad, they're willing to watch two minutes of your ad. Well, now they know your value propositions. They know why you exist. They know a lot about your brand. And what's crazy is that even if they don't buy, you've taught them enough in two minutes that they can explain to a friend so they can end up being referral source.

Brett:

They've become a referral source. It's so

Jacques:

True. A referral source it, it's pretty wild. Imagine you watch an ad about a backup generator for your home or something and you're like, I don't really need one. But then your buddy's out in Colorado and he is like, oh yeah, winter's coming last year we lost power. And you're like, oh yeah, I just saw this ad for this thing. Or maybe it's a pool fence or something. And you're like, I don't have a pool, but your kid, your friend just had a kid and they have a pool and they're like, oh, we need a pool fence. You're like, oh, you should check out this company. I heard about it literally works that way, but not if you only advertise for 15 or 30 seconds, you have to create the imprint in people's minds.

Brett:

Yeah. Love it. What are some of the, and I know people that listen to your podcast know all this already, but people that listen to mine might not. What are some of the campaigns that you're most proud of? So as you look back at the work, the Raindrop and a quick shout out team OMG is working with, so we partner together on clients a lot, but we just hired you guys to create some ads for omg, which I'm super, super excited about. But what are some of your campaigns you're most proud of?

Jacques:

Yeah, I mean, we've been spending a lot of time talking on YouTube. So most of our campaigns are omni-channel and they have a YouTube as they

Brett:

Should be component.

Jacques:

And so I mean, got to start with the doctor  Squatchwork because it was so transformative. Yeah, it's so good. And people loved it so much that the performance of that out on YouTube in 2020 allowed us to help with them grow the company to a point where they were able to afford a Super Bowl ad. So we did a superb bowl ad together and that was just an incredible experience. It's also been transformative for brands like Dossier, and it's been amazing to be working with

Brett:

Nas is affordable,

Jacques:

Affordable luxury fragrance fragrances. Correct. And Bones Coffee was another one where anytime we can watch brands grow by tens of millions quickly behind William Painter was a classic one too. That was way back when. That was fine.

Brett:

Yeah. That's one that I always think of with you guys is the William Painter.

Jacques:

Totally. Totally. Your

Brett:

Space is your money maker. I love that. Yeah, love that opening. And we had the chance,

Jacques:

Chance to work with Shady Rays too on multiple campaigns. So I mean, they've grown from 20 to, I don't know the exact number now, but it's closing in on nine figures and they are opening their own retail stores. They have three or four retail stores now. They're doing national television commercials. And it's just cool. I think I enjoy watching us take brands to that next level or just having the opportunity. We did this incredible campaign with Manscaped, just won a gold telly award and it's one of my favorite campaigns ever. That's one open

Brett:

With the torture scene or there's a torture

Jacques:

Scene. Yes. Torture scene of his, potentially of his crown jewels, if you will. I, it's like I could keep going, but there, there's in general, we love the work we get to do. A lot of it does involve comedy. I don't think it has to involve comedy. Right? We are getting into some other forms of work that don't necessarily involve comedy that are longer format, but you said it earlier, it's like people are only on YouTube for a couple reasons and usually it's to be entertained or to learn something. Yeah. So your ad has to do that. It has to entertain them and it has to allow them to learn something. And you don't have to enter if you're a traditional ad, ah, you're not watching it. You're just going to be like Skip.

Brett:

Exactly. So much, so much good stuff there. We both had the privilege of speaking at an event in Puerto Rico recently. Yes, as on Blue Ribbon Ribbon Masterminds. Super fun. And even though I'm not the creative guy, my talk was on seven ad tests or things to think about before you run. One of my favorites, and you guys always nail this one test is what I call the physical reaction test. Does the ad cause a physical reaction? And all of those you just mentioned, cause a physical reaction, you lean in, you laugh without being able to literally laugh out loud. You want to do something, you're motivated to pick something up and search for it or do it creates a physical reaction. And so you guys are so good at that striking the emotional chord. Put some humor in there to keep people watching, and then it just works. And I love the William Painter example, and then Shady Ray is super cool too. I've got to check that out in more detail. But I get to watch the William Painter one a little bit closer because I actually taught those guys YouTube, so they took my YouTube course and then Oh,

Jacques:

That's right, that's right. Yeah.

Brett:

That was actually our first intro. I think you guys saw the YouTube course as well. Something it's

Jacques:

Easy. So we, we watched the YouTube course and when painters was watching YouTube two, the YouTube course, and then because of that, the Dr. Squatchatch team was watching the YouTube course. So we were all on watching your courses. That was like five years

Brett:

Ago. You were great. And so I got to keep in touch with the William Painter guys, and so I won't give away any numbers that they don't want to be given away, but they were scaling so fast and they were spending a lot of money on YouTube, but they said, they were like, Hey, we figured it out. This was driving sales. So we're not even tracking YouTube direct performance. We're looking at all of it together. We're just mashing it all up and looking at it, they were more sophisticated than, I'm oversimplifying a little bit, but back to our original point, they had the faith and they were like, no, no, no, no. Look at total sales. They're growing whenever we scale this. And so they were looking at more merr, total media efficiency ratio, which is pretty cool. So Awesome. Well, so we just kind of teased a few things inadvertently. Dr. Squatch, we talked about us speaking at events. Yes, we talked about YouTube courses, but Jacque, we got something coming up, man, we got something coming up that's not for everybody. And by that, that means that we can't let everybody come because we're going to have limited space. But do you want to talk about the event we're doing together here in a pretty short period of time?

Jacques:

Yes. So Google, la, you and myself, maybe another person. We'll see.

Brett:

I think someone from YouTube is planning on speaking as well.

Jacques:

Someone from YouTube. Little

Brett:

Bonus.

Jacques:

Yeah, three people. I don't call myself expert in many things, but I am an expert in this. You are an expert in this. Can't wait for that event in September. I believe it's only going to be open to brands themselves. Google. Yeah, that's what Google Will is asking us to do. That's what

Brett:

Google's requesting. Yeah. Brands only appreciate, we're both agency owners, so nothing but love for our agency friends, but this event is just for brands.

Jacques:

And more than anything, I'm looking forward to the energy that I know you'll bring. In fact, I asked after the Puerto Rico event, if you could give me your presentation, I could steal half of it since it was so creative heavy.

Brett:

I will, I'll do that. I never did that want it? Still want it still. I'll do that. I'll do it as soon as we start hang up here. So let's do that. Yeah. And what's cool is I, I've been waiting a long time to do this event again. So it's the YouTube slash la offices and Ply Vista. It's the Spruce Goose Hangers, which phenomenal facility. If you watched the movie

Jacques:

Can be Spruce Goose. Like what's Spruce Goose? That just sounds

Brett:

Amazing. Oh, so amazing. Here's the story. Have you heard of the movie The Aviator with Leonardo DiCaprio? Yes. So he plays this eccentric billionaire, Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes lived in la. He was actually rich because his father was rich. That's another story. He built what was going to be like the biggest airplane, most ambitious, called the Spruce Goose. He built these two gigantic hangers in Los Angeles. The whole thing was a flop. It was a bust. But also Howard Hughes tried to make movies and stuff. Anyway, Google bought those two hangers and converted them into half as YouTube Studio, half as Google, Audi, Google offices. And so it's a phenomenal space, dude, it's, it's really cool. So in 2020 February, I got invited to do a similar event at those offices Packed house. It went so good that the people at YouTube or the people at Google were like, Hey, let, let's do something like this in Chicago, then we can do L New York or whatever.

But then guess what happened? A few weeks later, COVID hit, and so then we had not been able to do an event like this. So it is free. Some meals are included. You get to tour the facility, all that, get to hang out with me and Jacques, but it is limited. So we'll tell you how to go and register here momentarily, but coming up in September, and dude, I'm stoked. It's going to be a lot of fun. Now we're going to talk about YouTube and creative, but also Performance Max. I think there's this window, and this podcast is not about Performance Max. I don't want to get into it, but there's a window of opportunity because YouTube is kind of difficult. We have found some brands that have been able to scale YouTube placements through Performance Max. I think it's a little easier to get there, maybe is from a budgetary standpoint. So I'll uncover that at the event. Here's how, here's

Jacques:

Be P maxing

Brett:

Max, P maxing, P

Jacques:

Maxing. I don't know who's calling it, performance Max p Maxing baby.

Brett:

Pax Baby. Yep. Yep, yep, yep. So, hey, any jock for the listeners of either podcast? And this has been, so this has actually gone remarkably smooth, but it's also weird. Am I asking you the question? Are you asking me the question or we are just, we're

Jacques:

Asking other questions. It's a first podcast in history.

Brett:

Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. Any free resources, anything you want people to check out, anything you want people to do other than go check out. Yeah,

Jacques:

I would say the biggest thing that we spend time putting out in a thoughtful way is every quarter we send out something called the Founders Report. So if you go to Raindrop Agency and you go to our little menu and you find Founder's Report, it's absolutely free. And it literally has the exact same type of content we talked about today and actual examples of the best performing creative at any given moment in time. And so we do that for free. It's fun. We now have over 6,000 people part of that community. And that's also how you would find out about events like the one coming up in September.

Brett:

Awesome. And I, I've seen that. I get that newsletter. It's fantastic. Quick resource on our end@omgcommerce.com. Under resources, we got the top YouTube ad examples, and so the Raindrop team made the list multiple times, but basically these are a collection of our favorite YouTube ads that we, we've either seen scale firsthand or we've managed them, or we just know they're really, really good. And so we got links to them. Some of my thoughts on why I think they're good, but I think that's another great way just to learn YouTube ads is by watching great YouTube ads. And so check that out as well. If you'd like to attend the How to Scale your brand on pmax and YouTube event, live at the YouTube LA offices this September 14th, then go to omg commerce.com/youtube event. Again, that's omg commerce.com/youtube event, and you can apply to attend for free. There. Space is extremely limited. This is only for brands. Sorry, no agencies. We love you agency friends, but this is for brands only at YouTube's request. Learn from me, Brett Curry, learn from Jacques Spitzer from Raindrop. Learn from YouTube and some Google execs while you're there. Get a tour. Breakfast is included, lunch is included. Happy hours included if you can stay, but space is extremely limited. So head over to omg commerce.com/youtube event and apply today and I hope to see you in LA and talk YouTube in pmax in September. See you then.

Did you know that over 1 billion shopping experiences take place on Google alone each day? And that's not all – millions more transactions occur across platforms such as Facebook, Instagram, and Amazon.

Now, let me ask you a crucial question: Are your products making showing up on the ever-expanding "digital shelf," where eager shoppers are searching for their next purchase?

Enter feed marketing, the perfect blend of art and science, advertising and merchandising.

Feeds serve as the lifeblood for Google Shopping Ads (PMAX) and Facebook ads, a foundational framework for eCommerce brands. By leveraging feeds, you can amplify all other marketing efforts and drive better results.

Jacques van der Wilt is a renowned leader in shopping feeds, a mentor to startups, and an accomplished entrepreneur. As the CEO of DataFeedWatch, he spearheads a global feed management company, optimizing product listings across 2000+ shopping channels in 60+ countries. With a wealth of leadership experience in the US and Europe, Jacques is a sought-after speaker at industry events and a respected mentor at Startup Bootcamp. His expertise and dedication continue to shape and inspire the online merchant community.

In this interview, we discuss:

• Common feed mistakes that keep your products off the digital shelf and unavailable to eager shoppers.
• How a sporting apparel company increased clicks by over 200% with better product titles.
• Optimizing your efforts as you go (based on results).
• Giving shoppers AND platforms (Google, Facebook, etc.) what they want so that you attract more new customers.
• What Dynamic Prospecting is, and how optimized feeds can fuel new customer acquisition.

‍

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce. And today we are talking about optimizing the digital shelf being wherever your customers are during the millions of shopping experiences that happen every day online of this is part merchandising, part marketing, and all cash producing, business building info that should be extremely helpful and fun. And so my guest today is an expert on this topic of feed-based marketing and optimizing for the digital shelf. I've got Jacques van der Wilt on the show today. He's the c e o and founder of Data Feed Watch. And he was just telling me before we record that he and I go back to 2016. So that's when OMG first became a client of Data Feed Watch. So it's a tool we've used for a long time with a lot of different clients and it's been a wild ride and hard to believe that's been over seven years ago. And so with that, Jacques, welcome to the show and how you doing man?

Jacques:

Great, thank you very much. Thanks for having me. I am, I'm doing very well. How are you?

Brett:

I'm doing great. Doing great. Excited to be here. Love this topic. And I think this topic, it can be a little boring if you're not careful, but it can be extremely exciting and extremely beneficial if we approach it the right way, which is what we're going to do today. So now you, first of all, thank you for being flexible. We're in very different time zones right now. I'm in the Midwest in Missouri and you are in Amsterdam. And so it is evening your time right now? No,

Jacques:

It's 5:00 PM Indeed.

Brett:

Oh, okay. Okay. So not crazy morning time for me. 5:00 PM for you Exactly. But yeah, excited to be chatting. So I want to kind of frame the topic this way. If we think about merchandising, let's think about a physical store. So if I own a shop, I'm thinking about where do I put my products, what products do I select in the first place? So what products am I showcasing on the shelf? How am I positioning these products? I think about product packaging and lighting and placement and again, where traffic is and things like that. And then I want to think about optimizing. I'm going to be measuring for sales and sell through and optimizing that as we go. And that that's a real science. And that's why if you go to Walmart or Lowe's or whatever stores you're, you go into changing stuff all the time, moving products around, changing end caps, moving stuff from one shelf to another because they're trying to optimize for shopping experiences.

And if we look at the online shelf, let's just take Google as an example cause I'm a Google guy, we're a Google agency. Over a billion shopping experiences daily happen across Google Properties. That's across search shopping, YouTube, the display network all over Google, a billion shopping opportunities per day. That's a lot of eyeballs, that's a lot of opportunities to get your product in front of people that are either actively shopping or at least looking in your category or fit the criteria that make them a decent customer. And so lots of opportunities and obviously there's millions of shopping opportunities on Amazon daily and on Facebook daily. And so we're going to dive in and talk about how do we think about this in a digital space. And a lot of that goes back to your feed, the product feed and how you structure it, optimize it and again, try to get your price in front the right people. So with that Jacque, first of all, do you want to give just your background really quickly, just kind of 30 seconds or so, how did you start Data Feed Watch and what did you do right before that?

Jacques:

Well, that's a good question, Brad. About 15, no, 12, 15 years ago I started a company called Word Watch and it did automated bit management for Google text ads. Nice. And you are going to be fil rich and everyone would want it and it would work like crazy. And actually did in a way she said, we found out that small customers didn't have enough statistically relevant data in an age that algorithms weren't even around. And very large customers were like, I want bells, whistles, levers, stuff to decide instead of, so how much would you like your CPA to be? So while we were focusing on the mid-market and growing our business, Google came up with something they called product listing ads. It was a funny new thing. Instead of the text says they would show an image of product and below it would say what the product was and would even show the price and you could click it, it would take you straight to a page where you could buy the product. And we were like, okay, great, you we'll do that. We start optimizing the drill, us being Google Cowboys and yeah, so we told customers, so Google shopping or product listing ads are included and will manage your campaigns as well. Of course we did it manually. We then, yeah, we had automated anything yet

Brett:

Everything was manual man. Those were the good old days of bidding up, bidding down. We used to have spreadsheets and we'd run calculations and we'd bid up a penny down a penny on a couple products. And those were fun times.

Jacques:

Exactly. So while we were figuring out how to do that, it wasn't that hard. We could possibly automate it. We got totally nuts of the that for every customer we would have problems getting us product data into something called the Google Merchant Center. And with that conversation on the phone saying, sure, you know, really need to have your price in that file you going to send to Google because otherwise you get nothing to sell. And you know, would've to go back to his web developer, how do we get the price into that feed? And it would take a month and the developer would charge him like 500 bucks. It would go nowhere.

So we figured, okay, this is not going to work. Maybe since we're already a tech company, we hack something together to solve some of the problems. So it took three months and we basically created a very rudimentary version of Data Fit watch with a rename and a combine and an anesthetic value. And we ran it for a while. And guess what? It solves like 90% of our problems. Like whoa, whoa, this is cool. We had looked before, is there a tool out there that can do this? First, there were several tools already and we didn't get it. There were complicated and we couldn't afford it either it was thousands of bucks a month where we are, we know we're talking to American retailers with a GMV of like $5,000 a month. So that was the pivotal moment. We are like, okay, maybe we should make this our core business, this little rudimentary tool and forget about the automated billing on Texas. Which in retrospect, Brett next week was

Brett:

A very good choice.

Jacques:

Rev, our 10 year end anniversary party

Brett:

In retrospect chose

Jacques:

You chose price you chose.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah. Well also if you think about anything that's like bid management has struggled because Google created their own systems based on data that we can't see and complex algorithms and machine learning and AI and nobody's pouring more money into those tools than Google. And so yeah, bid management now it's just better to give that to Google and to their smart bid algorithm. So I love this and a couple things again, and I think the way we got to frame this when you're looking at feeds is this is the digital shelf. This is being available for all those millions and millions of shopping opportunities that happen every day. And so first off, you got to have, are your products available to be on the shelf? It's not a limited shelf, it's an infinite shelf. But the first thing is if I want my products available, are they available? Will Google even show them? So are my products approved inside a merchant center? Are they meeting guidelines for Facebook and for all the other shopping channels that I can be on? And so let's dive in here. I want, I want to talk about what are some of the top mistakes you see? Cause I know over the last 10 years, and I'm sure hundreds of millions of products later, what are some of the common mistakes you see with data feeds that limit sales opportunities?

Jacques:

Well the most common mistakes are stuff forgetting to fill out the shipping data, which we do either in the data feed or in the gmt, Google Conversion Center. Lots of errors are incomplete data basically. So incomplete. I do not have a GTIN or I forgot to put in my image or I have a gtin, but it's the wrong format. So it's actually not a gtin. The incompleteness and the incorrectness incorrectness is the biggest failure. Yeah. However,

Brett:

Yeah. And it's so important to bring that up because that's not fun stuff like filling out the G 10 and global trade identification number or shipping information, that's just little paperwork stuff. And I'm air quote, so that's obvious. Obviously digital. But that's the kind of stuff that keeps your products in the stock room in the back. They're not on the shelf because they're just sitting there waiting. They're waiting for these details because Google will not show them without those details. Neither will other shopping platforms. And so you got to fix the little stuff to even have the shopping opportunity.

Jacques:

So are many, I dunno, there's an error for every field right there. The shipping and the images, those are very, very common ones. Also, the number of errors differs per shopping cart. So if from agen you're likely to have more errors than if you're on Shopify. I hope nobody kills me for that, but that's what the data shows.

Brett:

Yeah, no I think it's totally fine. And we, interestingly enough, in the early days of OMG commerce, as we were getting into e-comm a lot, we partnered with a Magento agency. So I, I've been around Magento, even met the two founders of Magento. A lot has changed since the early days. They were the leader like open source leader. And now I hardly hear anybody that's on Magento. Obviously it's Adobe commerce now, but more complex, more complex, more robust. So yeah, I don't think coming after you for making those comments, but it is more complex and so more room for errors typically

Jacques:

What I liked about your intro is said, well data feed optimization is young, potentially a boring topic. And I couldn't agree more. So maybe the biggest mistake that I've seen for 10 years in a row across the board is that a retailer understands he needs to send his data to Google, Facebook, Amazon, we 2000 channels in more than 60 countries. But he needs to send the data and he sees this as a burden. I have to do it, I have to do it every day and there's errors and need to fix those and don't how it's still going to take me. So it's a negative thing. But in fact defeat is a foundation of every single advertising campaign on any channel. Whether that campaign is successful or not depends. First of all, if there's a smart guy running your campaign

Brett:

Or gal Yep, exactly.

Jacques:

Somebody at owned commerce or whether data that goes into these campaigns is actually good. So it's an opportunity to make more money, to sell more products, to get a higher row as and a higher ROI for every retailer to tweak his data. And then fixing errors is certainly the first thing you going to do. Let's clean out the house, garbage in, garbage out. If you have a crap title, you will show an ad with a very crappy title. You don't want to do that if you do not get your availability. So you advertising products that are out of stock, but you got to tailor your feet to show that. It means that Google is going to show your ad, the customer is going to click it, we've all done it, clicking it to find out that the product is no longer available. And what does the consumer say? Oh these guys are stupid. They dunno what they're doing. So you just lost 75 cents on a click. Not the problem. The problem is that you lost a customer if not for life then if you remembers your name you will not come back because you guys are stupid, right?

Brett:

Yeah, yeah. You advertise a product that got the shopper all excited and now it's not available on your store. And it's so important to think about feed-based marketing. So Google shopping and on the Google side these feed-based ads can appear across the display network and inside of YouTube and the Google Discover app and even inside of Gmail and they can appear across Facebook and Amazon and all over. But these are the foundation of marketing. This is definitely wallet out traffic. This is when people are wanting to buy something and they're actively shopping. I love looking at top of funnel ads like top of funnel, YouTube and Facebook and even native ads and other things where we're trying to interrupt people that we think fit our ideal customer profile and draw them into our brand. But all of that is made better. If your feed marketing is on point, if feed marketing is working, then everything else gets better.

Remarketing is better dynamic, remarketing is better, shopping is better. But there's even in the old days, in the glory days of Google shopping, which we're just talking about back when you could get a 10 or 12 x return on ad spend or something like without trying, it was mostly just shopping traffic and that was it. Like search query based traffic. Now Google takes your products and they put them all over and there there's a thing called dynamic prospecting that Google offers, which a lot of people don't know about. And we all know about dynamic remarketing. That's where we shop for a product on a website. We don't buy it now we browse the web and we see that product everywhere. Well yeah, exactly. Dynamic prospecting. Those when Google says, I know that you Jacque are shopping for non-stick cookware and you haven't bought anything yet. And so I'm just going to start showing you feed-based ads across the display network and inside of Gmail and inside on of YouTube. But it's not for products you've seen before. It's for products that I think you'll be interested in. Dynamic prospecting. Well all of that is made possible by having a really good feed and for that feed telling Google and other platforms what your product is, who it's for, when they should show it care. And then it's positioning it in a way that the customer says, ah, I want that

Jacques:

Exactly. You you're spot on telling Google what it is that you sell. Yeah,

And be specific. Yeah, a big fan of less is more with one exception. When Google says, so what are you selling? More is more you tell them everything that you have. If you can do all optional fields and even more, that's great Cause the more data Google has to match your product data with the actual search query, the higher the quality of the clicks will be, right? It will drive down your conversion rate, it will drive, sorry, it'll drive up your conversion rate, it'll drive down your CPA just because you have great data. You didn't have great data in your shop. No, it was okay data but you optimized it and now it's great data that went to Google, they went to Facebook, they went to criteria, they went to Amazon advertising anywhere where you will find your customers.

Brett:

So good. Let's talk about what are the top opportunities. So if we're looking at feed based marketing and all the potential, all the opportunities that it has, what are the biggest levers we can pull? What are the greatest areas of opportunity?

Jacques:

We created something called a feed marketing report, Brett, we did it last year. We're going to have a new version in the full, we basically analyzed what are 20,000 online stores doing with the data feed. So the good news is they were doing the things that we said that would work, but now we have the data to show that it's not just, we're saying that optimizing title is good idea, but it's like the most popular optimization type across 20,000 stores in dozens and dozens of countries. And then why is the title the number one? So I mentioned earlier Google looks at the search query and they look at the data in the feed and then if someone is interested in buying a pair of jeans, then many of them will know I want to Levi's five one because it looks good to me, I want a blue one.

No like everyone and I'm a size C two and that's it. So he's not going to look for all other brands. He may enter a pair of jeans you and they will work, but often they'll just say, I want Levi's five one mens blue jeans size three, two, your title in your shop is probably 5 0 1, which is fine cause you are, you're on the Levi's section and the image is there. So it's a good title. But for Google you want to combine the brand, the product type, the gender, the color, the size into Levi's five one men's blue jeans size 32. And then Google says Hey, I got 50 ads for the search query but there's only three that have exactly the same makeup of the title as a search query. So this must be a good match for the consumer. So despite the fact that this guy is bidding not top dollar, I still show his ads cause I want to make the consumer happy. So by enriching the title you get more impressions. However, with that great match between the search query and the title, the consumer is more likely to click your ad cause it's exactly what you just entered. How you get a higher ctr, well guess what happens if he makes it to your product page, he's more likely to buy because you already went down the chain. It's what it came for. You already knew the price from the ad. So more impressions, high CT R and high conversion rate, that's a triple whamy by enriching your title. And

Brett:

When you get that higher clickthrough rate, the other advantage there. So you're getting really relevant traffic, you're showing up to the right people searching for products just like yours. When you get that higher clickthrough rate, Google actually rewards that. Google says Aha, people love this listing. And so they want to show it more. So if you can optimize for click through rate, that is another way to expand your reach. Google's going to show that ad more if they think that people like it. And I think there's this approach, and this is just what I've gathered from now talking to thousands of merchants and auditing hundreds of Google ads accounts, is that a lot of people look at merchant center or look at their feed and they're just like, man, I don't want to think about this, I don't want to stress over it. Just make this as easy as possible.

Just get the feed up there. Which understand you got to run a business but the return on optimizing your titles is massive and it multiplies and compounds your other marketing. So take your time on a title One example I'll give, and this totally ties into what you were talking about, a buddy of mine runs everyday California longtime client adventure business just north of San Diego, California. So it's like kayak tours but also apparel. They've got awesome apparel and so they've got a shirt, which is one of my favorites. It's a long time, it's a classic. It's actually called L classico and it's like California flag and it's got the California bear named Brutus. He is holding the surfboard. And so that's the name of the product L classico. Well, without any customization, without any feed rules, without a tool, you send that information directly from Shopify to Google and you're telling Google, here's my product, it's L Classico, that's it, that's not enough.

That's Google. And Google's good at reading images and Google can figure stuff out. They're smart. But I would agree with you, the more you give Google the better. Because Google doesn't get tired of data. They feed off that data, they make good use of it. And so it's better to say L classico, black men's Excel, t-shirt made in the usa. Some of these other things add to that because then you're going to show up in more searches. Google really knows what it is, they know when to show it. And so yeah, I totally agree. Optimizing the title, it's something you need to think about early, but it's also something you need to think about as you go optimize the title as you go. You were telling me about a sports apparel, I believe a sports apparel, a retailer who did some title work and got some pretty phenomenal results. Can you talk about that case study just a little bit?

Jacques:

No, absolutely. So the title optimization is crucial in the way that you said, and it actually is very simple because with a tool like the Fit Watch, you can simply combine seven fields in the right order and you're done. So if you understand it's important and you understand how to structure your titles, it's a one minute job. But how would you structure your titles? Well, so you can use common sense and for every industry there's like a standard to put the prototype first and then the size and it whatever. If you Levi's, you want to put the brand first. If you're a no name brand, you got to put the brand last. It won't even show in the ad, but it'll still be in the title. But the smartest way, yeah, we got an instinct use case there is to check out what your customers, the ones that are buying on your site, are actually searching for, right?

So one example was these guys were selling baseball gloves and they had, they're making good money, they had good titles, everything. But then one guy figured out, let me check out what these guys are actually looking for. It turns out that they're looking for, they were entering in search query where they were left hand or right hand throw. If it was for themselves, if for the kids it was supposed to be leather or some other kind of material, none of that ever made it to the title. Maybe leather in a material field, but that's it. So they start experimenting by putting those very terms into the titles of their baseball gloves and I think they like 250% up on clicks. It was mind boggling usually. Yeah, I'm not big fan of like oh 250% more clicks. But in this case, yeah, it made total sense.

And when I explain this to people, many will say, well I got 25,000 products. I'm not going to figure out what the series queries are for 25,000 products. Life's too short. I say you're right if you definitely not do that. But do you know what your 10 best selling products are? Well, yeah I do. So what percentage of your total sales debt? Well, it's actually 22%. Well how much time are you going to spend on finding out and optimizing the search queries ar and titles of 10 products? Well actually I can do that in an hour. Exactly. So it's not important to finish it for 25,000 products. It's important to get started with your 10 best selling and then your best selling category and then your second best selling category. Take a year, I don't care, but get started at the top and you'll see instant results.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. Optimize the title. It makes all the sense in the world. And you know what a lot of people don't know too. And then again, I know I'm speaking about Google, but this totally applies whether it's Facebook shop or Instagram shop or other channels. But a lot of people will look at their Google shopping results are now performance max. Performance Max is kind of the king of Google shopping traffic now. But a lot of people will look at that and say, oh my return announcement's fine. I'm at a 200%, 300%, 400%, whatever fits for your business. But they're not looking deeper and they're not seeing that, oh you know what? Almost all the sales are coming from just a couple of products. Most of my other products are not visible. Most of the other products people are not seeing and it's because my feed is not optimized. The titles are not optimized where there's a lot of people that would want what you sell, but you are not giving it to them and so they're missing out. So title, totally agree, got to optimize it. What are some of the other biggest opportunities for growth?

Jacques:

Well, I told you before, right? I could talk for two hours, but we don't have two hours. So lemme just zoom in just one, two more. The other question I ask a lot of customers, would you like to advertise all your products? And they go, yeah, of course. And I say, well really. And then they start thinking, well actually 15% of my products is below 10 bucks at the gross margin on that, on average it's like two 50. The CPA is somewhere between two and three bucks. So actually I am losing money every time I sell something. So maybe I should stop selling products with a price less than 10. Or maybe I'm smart and I've already enriched my product feed with gross margin data. So now I know for every product, but the gross margin is either the amount or the percentage. So now I can start excluding based on gross margin just to make sure that the advertising money I'm spending will go to the products with a very decent margin. So excluding products is crucial. Exclude on based on title price availability, but look for the unprofitable or less profitable products and make sure that the money that you will no longer spend on the low margin product will go to another product. Now it'll automatically go to the products, whatever I margin simple math, just increase your ros. And why would you even care to sell all of your products? You want to make money. That's the business that we're using. And

Brett:

It makes sense. You have some products we carry because customers ask for it and we need to carry it. And they're great add-on products, but they don't make sense to advertise. There's not enough margin there or the price is too low to advertise. And so we can exclude that through custom labels, exclude that from our ads. We can also, but we can make them available to free list things across Google, which is not massive opportunity, but it is growing. There is a way to send a feed that to show up in free shopping areas across Google, which is nothing to sneeze at. And so that's an option too. So right, love this. We got titles, we got custom labels, understanding what products should we not sell, what price should we optimize? Let's, let's talk one more tip here cause I know we're running out of time. So

Jacques:

One more tip is a mind boggling statistics that I got from Google years ago. And the statistic is if you have a Google shopping ad on the serp, the search engine result page and a Google text ad, the customer is 90, that's 90 zero, 90% more likely to visit your site. That's their sta it's not mine. I didn't make it up. So what we've seen in the last years, in the last many years, everyone used to have tech sets and we've all moved to Google shopping makes total sense. Google shopping is the king of the hill, but we shouldn't have abandoned the tech sets, but we did because it's a lot of work, you know, need to set up this campaign. You can only partially automate it, it requires maintenance. So you're going for usage, do Google shopping, feed driven automation feed and done. However, we for example, offer a feed based text add server.

So that means that again, you know, create a data feed for Google text ads or for Bing text ads. And then four times a day we recreate a Google search campaign of that by automating it. You can create a unique single ad group for every individual product. Usually you'll stick this yellow all colors and sizes or even a single product type into an ad group. And you have a bunch of keywords and text sets for the entire group. Now you have one ad group with unique keywords and unique text ads created automatically. So obviously now that gives you from the long tail, from short tail to the longest possible till it enables you to create a campaign with not too much trouble. The maintenance with products are in stock, out of stock, new products, new product types is done automatically because it's feed driven. And if you can go so granular as to have unique text sets and keywords for every individual product, that is certainly going to drive up your r oi.

We see it a lot with booksellers, yeah, because they're selling boatloads of books. But I really like the customer. We once was selling second cars and he didn't even have a big budget, but he wanted to advertise anyway. But your cars is a disaster, right? Because you got dozens of brands and each brand has a dozen mix and then they have colors and different tires, different engine sizes. D So before you know it, you got a million variations. You don't want to create a taxed campaign for that manually, but automatically it works. So you're basically advertising your secondhand cars with the longest possible tail. Cause again, just like with the Levi's example, people know that they want a c F E from this year and that car. So they'll find it. And since it's so long deal, the cost per click is very low. So this guy became very successful in selling secondhand cars through Google Tech sets at a very small budget. And that's what automation can do for you as well.

Brett:

Yeah, I love it. And we all get excited about the new traffic channels. We get excited about TikTok and Instagram reels and then other things that are new and shiny and we should, as marketers, we should try those things. But sometimes we sleep on what's still really effective. And one of those is Google search. Google Search is one of the OGs, but it's so effective. And I love that you brought up that point. We see that over and over again. If you're just running Google Shopping or now if you're just running Performance Max, that's not bad. But if you have search ads, and those can be part of Performance Max, but we actually recommend separate search campaigns too. It will increase your click through rate, right? People, when people see the product listing ads of the shopping ads in a search results page, and then they see your text ad, it just adds confirmation.

It's more selling, it's more convincing that hey, you're trustworthy and you've got what people are looking for and you're worth a click. And so having it show up in both places makes both campaigns better. So I love that focus on search and consider feed-based search. If you got a large SKU count or complex catalog, it can make life easier. So Jacques, this has been tremendously fun, super helpful. I've enjoyed it immensely. If people are listening and saying, Hey, I'd like to check out data feed watch either for more information, cause I know you guys have reports that you published, we can link to those in the show notes. But either for information or to check out the tool, how can they find you?

Jacques:

Data feed watch.com. And indeed we have a super big block where you find ticks and tips and tricks on anything about data feed optimization. You'll find the feed marketing with super interesting stats that enables you to compare yourself against your competitors in a certain vertical or in a certain country or whatever. All the data's there. Or you can just simply get a demo or sign up for a free trial so you can try it out and see for yourself.

Brett:

Love it. I highly recommend it. Check it out. If you're looking for a solution, get your feed marketing right. And when you do that opens up all opportunities that makes every other marketing activity you do better. If you need a second set of eyes on your shopping or Pmax account, reach out to OMG Commerce. We're happy to chat, happy to help. And so with that Jacques, man, thank you so much for the time and we'll have to do it again sometime.

Jacques:

All righty. Well thanks for having me, Brett. It was a lot of fun. And to your audience, you guys have

Brett:

A great day. Awesome. Thank you. And as always, I appreciate you tuning in. We'd love your feedback on this episode or any episode you found valuable. And hey, if you're listening and you're like, this is such great information, share it with your community, share it with people you think might be interested or in forums or wherever you think people might like it, that makes my day, of course, but also helps other people out as well. And so with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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Community and great brands go hand-in-hand. If you want to maximize LTV, build raving fans, stimulate referrals, and create a stable base of customers - COMMUNITY is at the center.

Carlos Alvarez is a legend in the eComm and Amazon seller space. He's been a full-time seller on Amazon for 15 years. He's also in the super-elite club of 9 figure sellers.

He's built the world's largest Amazon seller meetup group. It used to be fully in-person before the pandemic, but is now hybrid, allowing for greater accessibility and participation. And that's not all! He's created a community exclusively for physical product brands as well.

Here's a look at what we cover:

• Why focusing on size alone isn't the way to build a large and thriving community.
• The secret sauce principle of "if everyone is invited, no one is invited."
• The mechanics of building an email list and how to build an engaged community from that list.
• How to structure an offer ladder.
• Tools for building community.
• Plus more!

Mentioned In This Episode:

• Wizards of Ecom

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and I am delighted about today's guest. We go way back. We've been friends a long time in the industry. Mad respect for this guy, Mr. Carlos Alvarez as my guest. He's the host of the Wizards of Ecom, which is, if you did not know, the largest Amazon seller meetup group on the planet. And it's one that you should check out if you're an Amazon seller. He's also been a full-time seller on Amazon for 15 years and nine Figure Seller, which that is a pretty elite club. So this guy knows what he is talking about. And we're going to dive into some fun stuff Today. We're going to talk about community building. We're going to talk a little bit about building audiences on YouTube. This is stuff that's going to be applicable to you and it's going to be a lot of fun. And being on the air with a fellow podcaster is always fun too. So we may just go off the rails and riff a little bit. Who knows? You'll just have to wait and find out. So with that, Carlos, how you doing buddy? And thanks for taking the time,

Carlos:

Brett. Amazing. Thank you so much for that intro. And I've, I've been a fan of yours even longer than as long as we've known each other. So from afar, I think I've even referred to you in some of my events as like, that's my coach. Well, not officially, he doesn't know it. I've just been following his stuff.

Brett:

Dude, I'm thrilled to be your unofficial coach. This is amazing. But yeah, we were trying to remember where do we meet first? I think it was either T N C or Social Media Marketing World or one of those events, one of them, but cross paths and we're like, Hey, this is a pretty cool guy. We got to stay connected. So yeah man. So talk to me about wizards of e-com. Was that built out of just your desire to connect with other sellers or how did that come to be?

Carlos:

Absolutely. I being an e-com seller and me was elementary school dropout, g e d, just by myself and discover eBay, then discover Amazon. It was very solo, it was very working all night, slamming energy drinks, making, I get making sure I get those eBay orders out back in the day. And

Brett:

What was your energy drink of choice? I'm just purely curious here.

Carlos:

It got really bad, man. It used to be like two days, no sleep, had no concept of virtual assistances or processes back then. I wish I did. But it got to the point where it was a cold, I dunno if you know what a ola that is because you come down to Miami, it's this,

Brett:

I haven't seen it.

Carlos:

Short. Styrofoam cup full of Cuban coffee, which is like by itself.

Brett:

Yes. Okay. I had not heard that name. Dude. Cuban coffee is insane, so I don't know how much sugar is in that. So it's like straight espresso basically with lots and lots of sugar. I like the espresso part, not so much the sugar, but yeah, that will keep you up for a couple days probably.

Carlos:

I would get one of those, drop a five hour energy in there and then whatever energy drink I had, I would blend it and I would slam it. It was bad. No, no. But I just, just doing this nonstop by myself and I started getting into building my own brands and building communities in real life has always been a thing. I like meeting even been like that with Amazon wholesale accounts. It was like, if I can get face-to-face with this vendor, I will close. But if you're forcing me into email, I'm just, it's done. So meeting other sellers, I, in building community, I'm very, I don't need to be the guru of the community liable to go out there. I'm fine with being the guide, guide, not guru. And I want to find other people that are doing what I do and hopefully learn from them.

So I didn't know where I fell with my experience level in this and I was like, let's find other sellers if they exist and let's create a meetup, which I had used meetup.com to build other brands for a scuba brand in the past and other things. So I was like, let's just put this thing on meetup.com and maybe somebody will show up. I had four people, I picked a coffee house close to my house and three other people showed up for the next four events. Nobody showed up. And I used to take pictures, I would strategically pose for the picture so I'd catch like a table or two behind me. So it looked like they were part of the group

Brett:

Beat ups going great. Lot of people in the coffee shop today. Yeah,

Carlos:

Can't wait to see everybody again next week. That's all I would say. Right, right, right. Yeah. And it builded, that's

Brett:

Not lying. That's just creative

Carlos:

Ally technically, right?

Brett:

Yeah, yeah. That's so good. That's so good. So glad you kept it up. And one thing I just want to mention about in person events, something, it is kind of lonely to be an entrepreneur. That's true regardless of the industry, but especially a virtual entrepreneur, everything we do is online. Everything we do is digital. And so we don't have the human interaction as much. And I will say even though we, we've been a digital agency since 2010, the best, the longest lasting connections and partnerships and JV opportunities and friendships have all started in person. Either started in person or through a referral from somebody that I met in person or those relationships were just made better in person. And so yeah, you just got to get out there, you got to go to events, you got to do stuff like meetups. It's worth the time. So then when did that really start to gain traction? Because you went from you being the only one in the meetup to now largest meetup in the world of Amazon sellers. When did it really take off?

Carlos:

I think with everything, not just one thing, but one of 'em is consistency

Brett:

For

Carlos:

Sure. I was consistent with it. The other one was feedback. So those first events was whoever was the biggest extrovert, I dunno if that's a good example, whoever was the biggest extrovert that showed up, that was the topic because that person was willing to just interrupt and I mean just completely bully the conversation. And I was just happy people were talking and showing up. So I didn't identify that as an issue. And this has been something that I've, I, I've since learned and it's helped me in all my communities. And that is ask people for feedback on the group, which sounds obvious, but the thing is when you ask 'em or you buy SurveyMonkey, I don't even know if that's still around, but buy some survey tools, you send it out and nobody responds. But I learned that if you tell them what you think is a good idea to do, they all are more than willing to tell you why that's a bad idea.

And I'd say, look, I think it's a great idea if we start meeting at 7:00 AM on Saturdays, everyone would jump in on why that's a bad idea and they'd suggest a time we should meet. So getting feedback from the group here, and this really changed stuff was what are you getting out of the group? And people would say, I'm a beginner, and all we're talking about is these digital marketing tools for the last few weeks that could help Amazon sellers. And sure enough, the last few weeks, the extrovert of those weeks was a digital marketer. So I was like, wait a minute, maybe we need a beginner hour. So we carved out a spot, first hours for beginners, all your beginner questions and then we have a topic. So we started being able to cater for different people. We get feedback and we adjust what time really works.

We tried all those times during the week, which meant a lot of times changing something that worked to test to see if it was better and it wasn't. And then pulling back to what you knew. So I would say a year in, we had a structure that people were like, wow, I wish this existed where I lived. I happened to be in Miami at that point. We started hearing that and then we got reached out to a local newspaper who featured myself and the guys over at Gja and they referred to me as the Pied Piper of Amazon. They published it and it just blew up.

Brett:

That is awesome. That is awesome, man. And that's one of those things where consistency, showing up, putting in the hard work, not quitting when no one shows or not quitting, when things don't go great, eventually you reach a breakthrough or things really accelerate. It's kind of one of those things where the overnight successes that are talked about and celebrated, they're usually years, multiple years in the making and sounds like that was true for wizards of e-comm as well. So I love this aspect of community building and I think this is important, whether you're selling a physical product, whether you're selling accessories or beauty or supplements or whatever, having a community around your product is so powerful because we buy for emotional reasons and we're all craving connection. We want to buy stuff for sure. We also want community and connection. We want the brands and the things we buy to resonate with us and they speak about who we are and how we want to show up in the world. And so lots of valuable things around community. I think it's important for service providers as well like myself. But let's dive into what do you consider some of the fundamentals or the key ingredients to building a community?

Carlos:

I think one of the ingredients, and I might even just be totally plagiarizing this from authors, I've read so much about community that if I say something that sounds super knowledgeable, there's a chance that I read it from someone and anyone listening to this, I am not stealing it. Just you tweak it and you make it to your own. And at the end, you don't know where this thing came from, but there's an author named Priya Parker who wrote a book called The Art of Gathering. It's been very impactful even prior to that book on how I approach community or I was doing something and then reading that book really validated a lot that I was doing. But a really important thing that I took from there is for a long time when I was building community pre wizards of e-comm, I gauged, if you asked me how did the event go, I would tell you it was good if a lot of people showed up and it was bad if not too many people showed up.

And later on I wind up becoming the city organizer for meetup.com and helping other community builders start their communities and making them grow. And something I learned is that meetup is your meetup community or however you're meeting, it's a gathering and a gathering is any time there is three or more people and you need to treat it as such, you need to treat it the same way as if it's 50 people. But if you have three or more people, you have a gathering, you have a community and you should treat it as the valuable thing that it is. So when you change that approach, all of a sudden you're not so discouraged because you only got five and you have to start somewhere. There's so many amazing people in communities I know that just died. They just abandoned them because of that, because that didn't just rapidly grow within the first few months. So that would be a big one. The other one for me is having a secret sauce here is if you have a community and you're waiting for people to join and they're not, the problem is you.

When you just have that community sitting there, it's sort of like everyone is invited and when everyone is invited, nobody's invited. Yeah. So you have to know so true who you want in your community and you need to actively reach out to those people, be where they're at. I'm talking a little digital marketing now. Hang out where your community hangs out. And if you don't know what that is, look for it. More than likely, if you started the community, you are your community. So where are you hanging out? And invite those people to the community. Don't just like, we'll take anyone, anyone that's willing to register and update their profile picture, you're in our community, that doesn't work. That's actually hurting you.

Brett:

That's not a community. Yeah. Is it, was it Groucho Marx maybe that said he didn't want to be a part of any club that would have him as a member, right? It's like one of those and just kind of tug and cheek, but it's like, yeah, if this is available to anybody, then I don't want to be there. I want to be there with people that are like me or with people that I aspire to be like, so this is how I want to show up. This is who I want to be in the world. This is who I want to rub shoulders with. If the community is for that type of person, then I'm in. If it's for everybody, anybody and everybody, then I'm nervous that it's going to be a bunch of time wasters or it's not going to be valuable. And to your initial point, I think this is so important.

If it's the right five people that can be transformational. If it's the right three people that can totally transform your business. We did a thing locally, but when OMG was starting, and then I had two other friends in Springfield, Missouri where I lived, one was starting a business one and had a business a little while. So we did this thing, I can't remember if we call it the think tank. I know we had some stupid name for it, but we just got together regularly and asked each other hard questions and gave each other candid feedback on our business. And it was so transformational and so valuable to the start of the business and it was just like three or four guys. And so if it's the right people that that's all that matters. Are there elements? So I like the way you talk about it's a gathering. If it's three or more, it's a gathering. How do you make it feel, and hopefully this will apply to in-person and virtual a little bit. How do you make it feel like a gathering versus Hey, this is awkward, this is uncomfortable. What are we

Carlos:

Doing here? No, that's a phenomenal question. Yeah, that's a phenomenal question. So I, I'll give you the quick answer, but it's going to sound like a cop out. And then I'm going to explain a little bit. So it's rules. All communities need rules. Your group has to have rules. And a lot of people think when you say that, it means you can't say your political affiliation, don't talk about religion, avoid. That's what they think rules mean. And yeah, there should be something there that says that if that applies in your group. But when I'm talking about rules, I'm talking about how to make it closer. Again, I'm going to take something from an author I read about rules can be something like this and this can make you feel part of something. Like there was this community, I don't remember the name, and I think it had to do with tech.

And there was a rule that said, here's the free food, here's the drink that we have for this event. You cannot pour own drink. You can have somebody else pour your drink, but you can't pour your own drink. So you can create rules like that force this community building and that are fun. And you wind up saying, you're not going to believe this. I'd be like, Brad, I was at this crazy event yesterday in Miami, they had the best beers. We couldn't open our own beers. We had to ask somebody in the community to do this. So you create these rules like this, that's so fun

Brett:

And

Carlos:

It's so fun and endless.

Brett:

It's just rip really quickly. I don't want to derail you too much because this is so good. But I think that in some way that's just a brilliant thing. It's so simple, but it's like it teaches you to say, Hey, it's okay to ask for help and everybody has to do it. So it's acceptable now, but it's okay to ask for help. And actually not only is it okay to ask for help, but when you ask for help, a lot of people are delighted to help. A lot of people are like, oh yeah, love, love, love to crack, open your beer for you. Absolutely. But it also gets the conversation going and it's so many brilliant things there. Okay, that's great example. Keep going with rules.

Carlos:

No so rule. There's all kind of rules that you can create in your community if you try to apply this one, it's probably, maybe it'll work. I think this one's a good one. Maybe this is the Yeah, yeah, right. But this is the equivalent of would you rather do this? What are they going to be talking about afterwards and what are they going to want to come back and experience that? Or everybody look to your left and say hi to so-and-so that's sitting next to you, which happens a lot. Nothing against them, but this is your community. You chose the people that are here. You invited the people that you wanted to this, it's your gathering, it's your rules. Something else Priya Parker said was that a gathering is the temporary suspension of the constitution and you and rules and you replace it with a different one.

So it's like your rules, for example, outside of us getting together for this meetup, let's say you can pour your own drink. Obviously we all can, but we're temporarily suspending that rule. If you want to be part of this community and you need to ask somebody else if that makes sense. When she first said it, I was like, man, this sounds illegal. You can't suspend the constitution. But when you start peeling it back, it makes a ton of sense. So create your rules and that whether it's virtual or in person, is going to go really give you that impact that you're part of something that everybody knows their name, what show is that from? Cheers. Yeah, cheers. Everybody knows your name. So that's what does it now in person for me is my strong suit. I can do this really good in person. My next would be email. So the email community and being able to achieve that on email. Now you have to do different things, but you can do it in whatever channel is the most comfortable for you. Again, I just keep giving you examples that are in person because that's my thing. That's my jam. Yeah,

Brett:

I love this so much. And what's interesting about the rules piece, we all want to know how we can and should behave. We want some guidelines, we want some direction. I remember reading years ago, I thought it was so interesting that kids who play in a fenced in backyard often are in end up being more creative than those who grew up with no fences, no boundaries. And the idea behind that is if there's no boundaries, I maybe am timid or concerned or I'm afraid I don't know what to do. But if they're clear boundaries, I can just go wild in that space. I can create and I can play and I can make believe and I can do all these things and that that's related to kids. But I think for adults it's similar. We want some structure. How do I show up in this group? What's okay, what's not okay, who is this group about? And then when you know those things, you know how you have the freedom now to create within those guidelines. So I think that's super helpful.

Carlos:

Another one, another one is a name you. Yeah, you got to give your event, your group and the people in it, a name meet meetup.com has always done this. And I thought it was it. I thought it made no sense in the world until I started really building out communities. And it has a block. You can't even proceed unless you give someone a name in the group. So if you created a, I'm going to u, I keep using Meetup too, but you don't have to be on Meetup. But if you create a community that's about blogging and maybe you call blogger, everybody in there is a blogger or a creator. So when you write an email or you communicate in person, create, let's get together and let's take a photo that naming matters. The name of your event matters. The name of your group as a whole matters. When you combine all these ingredients, you come out with a really amazing community recipe. So I'm hoping, I love that. I'm hoping somebody listening to this realizes that you just have to do more than just create the event, sit back totally. And wait for people to see the title somehow and join

Brett:

H. How do you think that, let's translate this for a minute to an e-commerce brand. So I'm selling sporting goods, let's just say on online H, how do I do this? So how do I think about that initial thought of, hey, if everybody's invited, then no one's invited, right? And doesn't necessarily matter how many people but the right people and what are the rules I would set up and names and things like that. It how would you translate this for an e-com brand?

Carlos:

Me personally, I would do something that most people won't do, and that is my mind just would immediately go to say I'm into sports, and let's say it's, I don't know, let's say it's, I don't know, cleats or something, right? Yeah. I would immediately say, okay, I'm going to go out there and start either all guys or co-ed, weekend, kickball league. And I'm going to say, where are my weekend warriors at? If it's like, maybe weekend warriors is wrong, but where am I? We were super athletic as kids and we enjoyed this, but never thought of going pro. We had other stuff, but it doesn't mean we don't like sports and we want to get together on the weekend and play some cool sports and build a team so we can join all these different leagues together and scratch that itch that we have and we thought we couldn't do anymore.

So I would think to that. And then I'm like, okay, I'm that person. I sell the gear that goes along with this. And it doesn't mean that everyone that joins I'm going to sell to, I'd be more than happy for them to take a picture of it. I'll probably give them the gear for free and they're probably going to want to pay for it. But s I might be able to sponsor that group and other people ask about it. I'll build an email list on it. I'll sponsor different games and I'll start building the email list and building the community. I mean, I wasn't even ready for the question, but that's how I would do it without even thinking of it. I'd immediately jump to that. Now if that was totally off the table for me, I, I'm not going to go give my weekends up to do it.

I actually think it would be harder, totally doable, but harder. Ryan Die said something years back four, I think it was like four God Covid warps time, no pre covid. So the year or two before Covid 18, 19, he said something about doing things that are not track, that don't really have a trackable ROI or an as easy of a trackable ROI is going to be better. And I think he hit it on the head. And when it comes to building an in-person community and going out there and doing kickball to grow your brand, something as crazy as that, it has a very difficult to track ROI to it versus I'm going to set up an email and I very clearly see open rates, conversions. It's much more trackable, so it becomes much more difficult as well.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. You think about physical store, what's the ROI of having a greeter who really smiles at you? I don't know mean you could probably track it somehow, but it's pretty hard to track and you just know it works. So just do it. Get someone who's cheerful and happy and those sort of things. So let's talk about email groups. You said that that's kind of one of your go-tos, and I think that that seems pretty approachable for price service providers who are maybe like us at OMG Commerce where our clients are all over the country and even international or e-com brand where customers are spread out all over the globe. So how are you building an email community? What are some of the components there and how does that actually work?

Carlos:

Email, you have a lot of options. So you have the actual email itself, which is extremely important, but I feel you need in conjunction with the email, a way for people to interact in a controlled way. Now, I don't want to sound like a dictator here, but in a controlled environment between emails. So for the longest time, for me and almost everyone, it was Facebook. And I love Facebook. I'm not anti-Facebook at all. However, Facebook groups for me, while there's a lot of powerful use cases for them, is not the best place for me anymore to have real time back and forth communication where notifications are not throttled and everyone's seeing your message if they really want to without having to know we're a three step process to make this happen. So the WhatsApp is phenomenal though for it. The problem is WhatsApp caps on the amount of people that can be there becomes very challenging. You'll get somebody that'll post some, get ahold of the link publicly and just post some really inappropriate stuff that you don't see until the morning. I don't want to deal with that. So Telegram is my go-to

Brett:

Telegram. Nice. Yeah, I used it.

Carlos:

Discord even more powerful. But the learning curve for most people on Discord is unfriendly. So Telegram is basically a rebranded. WhatsApp is my best description with a lot more privacy features and a lot more control from the community manager, creator, owner side that you can put in place to make it a pleasant experience all the time. It allows for bots. So once you have the email and you have a place for everyone to communicate between the emails, it now is where some of this flexibility comes in. It depends what your email is about. A lot of people don't do an email list because they're like, I'm not a writer. Some of the best email communities I've seen were just curated content. And the cool thing about curated content is say you have this one Telegram community that where people go that are part of this newsletter to engage with each other, but the curated content might be different areas of it.

I just saw you gave a killer webinar with as a Asez, a Firestone on Google. So say there was a curated AR article from Google in there, but there was another article had nothing to do with Google. You can have these breakout rooms where people can discuss the topic for the next three days. Is this, our suspending of the constitution is we can't post anything in these subgroups unless it's about four or against or whatever about this particular article that came out on X newsletter. So that would be an equivalent that you can put together that I think would be super impactful. And a lot more people I notice engage that way because they're like, yeah, I love this. I just want to tear this up. This Google webinar that Brett and NRA did terrible want to tear this up. It was all

Brett:

Wrong. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Carlos:

No, nobody's

Brett:

Ever said that. But your breakout rooms within Telegram, is that what you're saying? So these breakout rooms. Yeah, totally could. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what's interesting, so I've used Telegram a couple times for a couple of different groups that I've spoken at or been a part of. You don't need a tutorial, it just works intuitive. You open it up. Yep, you get going. So totally makes sense. And the privacy piece makes a lot of sense too. So how then are you building this email group? So email group is kind of the consistent content telegram that is the vehicle for connection and commenting and real community building between emails. How are you building this? How are you growing this? I'm assuming a name is really important here too. I'm assuming setting the parameters for who this is for is also important. How are you building that email? Community

Carlos:

Building the actual email list?

Brett:

Yeah.

Carlos:

Yeah. So again, this is one of those ones that's like pick your poison, do what's good for you, don't repeat for me what mine is long form free, long form, high value content. So I'll give you an example. There's a YouTube creator who's probably the name in efficiency nowadays called Ali Abdal, right? So amazing channel by the way, if you haven't checked it out, Brett, it's absolutely amazing. I learned something, I'm some of those channels. You learn bite-sized, digestible things every episode. So Ali Abdal doctor who becomes full-time YouTuber. So he creates these high form, high value, long form, valuable content, it's free. And in there he gives a free resource where it's applicable. Here's my checklist on that I go through before going to bed to make sure I get optimal sleep. He is never, and he's pushing 5 million subscribers ever sold something on his YouTube channel.

Wow. Now what happens is it doesn't mean this guy doesn't know how to sell or it's just like some pro bono thing. When you download that free resource, he sells to you via the email based on what you've sort of self segmented yourself. Hey, I'm into this, I'm into efficiency, but don't blast me on everything efficiency. I'm into this one particular area of efficiency like sleep, which just makes your job easier. I mean you could have community and also community and profits are not you mutually exclusive. They can be in the same sentence. So they self segment and then you start selling to them. So my way of getting people into my community or into my email list is long form high value content. If it was the scuba community, it was scuba lessons and the long form content was going out there for hours out into the water with scuba, with wizards of e-com. It's an divorce worthy quantity of free long form meetup events where I'm getting up there and teaching 12 to 20 times per month. And for somebody's YouTube channel, that could be you. It like everything that goes into building a YouTube channel at scale, you're putting in all that. So for me, that's the easiest way. Nowadays though, there's another way that I don't have a ton of experience on. I've begun experimenting with it. Have you ever heard of a tool called Spark Loop?

Brett:

Spark Loop? I have not.

Carlos:

They just got acquired by ConvertKit and prior to that what they do is they plug into every email service provider out there, if you've heard of it. They're connected with it. And what'll happen is when you someone up for, I want to set up sign up for Brett Curry's email list. When I go sign up, there's an immediate popup, like a modular popup that pops up and it says, if you're into Brett's email, check out these three and maybe it's Ali Abdal and two other people that are on there. So they're helping you feed your email list. I know some people that put email lists out in specific niches and they'll grow that thing to a few thousand emails just through Spark Loop and it's like $67 a month.

Brett:

That's amazing. That's phenomenal. Okay, cool. And lean into whatever works for you. But I think that that's kind of tried and true. It just works. You're giving long form valuable content. Content that people are hungry for. And we've done this too where we talk a lot about YouTube ads and how to grow with YouTube ads and it's kind of complex and especially the creative aspect. And so we've got a guy that's top YouTube ads and examples and templates and here's 16 winning ads. And I break them down and show you why they work and show you how you can duplicate it and things like that. People want that content and they're willing to exchange their email address for it. And then if you can build the community on top of that, now you're delivering even more value.

Carlos:

A side note, if you had a paid email newsletter on YouTube ads, I'd be your first subscriber. So I'm saying that

Brett:

Thing would be massive. I guess I should should consider that. There's one more

Carlos:

Thing. Maybe a discount since it was my idea.

Brett:

Yeah, totally. Founding member, we'll get to get you the founding member discount. Yeah, for sure. So that's awesome. So then you think about, so you're building community, how do you think about strategically monetizing that community? And you want to protect the community and you want it to be valuable and it's a gathering and it's people that you want to hang out with and they want to hang out with you. And so if you don't monetize it, then now you just got a club or that's just a friendly gathering, which is okay, but you need to pride monetize it. But if you try too hard to monetize, you maybe kill the spirit of it. So how do you strategically monetize a group?

Carlos:

Like you said, you have to be very careful. Well, you're gaining trust in your gathering and they trusted you operating under your suspended constitution for different periods of time. So it rapidly builds trust. And if you just say, Hey, everybody say you just discovered this very generous affiliate deal and you just start slamming them with all these deals that they should get and you become salesy, you'll burn the community rapidly by doing that. So there's so many ways to make money with the community. And I would start with some affiliate stuff. It just, because I have no idea, are we talking about a specific community? Are we talking about the sports one? But assuming people here listening to this are in want to do all different kinds of communities, what are some things that everyone can benefit from? I would start with a plugin that a friend of mine shared recently.

It's a plugin for chat gpt four for Instacart who does not want to save time shopping. Maybe you don't like whatever the case may be. Right? Totally. And I would show this prompt that says, create a grocery list with meals, this many meals for a family of excise under X dollars. And then show everybody this. So you see, you let people know, Hey, who's interested in this loom video I put together on how to save a bunch of money and time with your Instacart? Pat Flynn, another one. Pat Flynn did a great example with when he first started, but I think he did one that was like, here's a script that you can use to save a hundred dollars on your cable bill. But had nothing. His list had nothing to do with that, but everyone on his list wanted to save money and he knew they all had cable. So come up with some easy stuff like that and start seeing who buys. Start getting the feedback from that. The next easy spot to move into with communities is digital products. But you can get into physical products with a digital community for sure.

Getting people's feedback on a product before you bring it to market is priceless.

Brett:

And people want do that. People want to give that feedback because they feel like they're helping you and and likely in the process as they're giving feedback, they may consider, Hey, I want to buy that product too. So let's talk about feedback for just a minute. Cause I think this is huge. I love post-purchase surveys. I know people that use no commerce or triple whales got this now where you're asking people, did you find what you were looking for and why did you buy this? And why did you almost not buy? There's a ton of questions you can ask and getting that feedback is incredibly valuable. How do you get feedback from your groups? What's the mechanism there? And then what kind of feedback are you soliciting?

Carlos:

So when you build a community there, I found that there's no way around building it to a point that when you walk into the room, there isn't at least a small reaction of, oh, the principles here maybe sit up a little straighter. Or remember he's the one that painted these walls and everyone acts slightly different. I don't know a way around that. And for everyone it's going to be different, but I don't want my feedback colored even that much. So what I do is, like you said, there's a door greeter, someone that smiles. We have people that are just dedicated to identifying the new members and approaching them so they don't just walk out these same people, they're sit, they're not sitting next to me at the table. They're sitting amongst the group and they're asking, and they get uncolored unfiltered answers. That's so good, so good. So the equivalent in person is that,

Brett:

Yeah. And man, what a valuable thing because everybody, I think whether they're joining a virtual group or in-person group, they're fighting with, am I in the right place? Should I get out of here? Do I need to duck out if there's a break, if there's a quick break, do I just need to hit the exits and get so people have that anxiety or at least that and that concern. And so having people dedicated to making those people feel welcome, love that so much. But also people who are not you and who don't appear to be super associated with you asking for feedback because you're always, even people that are super direct and that want to help and that maybe don't have as much of a filter, they're still going to filter stuff for you because it's, that's just human nature. But they'll give more candid feedback to somebody appear to be the leader. So really great. Really, really great. Any insights, I know we're kind of coming up against time has been super fun, super valuable. You're also doing a lot of stuff on YouTube and we love YouTube ads. We we're actually working on building our YouTube channel only have some strategies now just for fun. But how are you building community? How are you building content on YouTube? Any tips or insights you can share there?

Carlos:

Yeah, I'm going to approach, I'm approaching it the same way in a lot of the same ways I do with the meetup, the in-person communities or the meetup communities in the sense of I'm going, I'm beginning with long form, high value free, long form, high value content. I'm not going to be selling not even a, remember Black Friday or Cyber Monday, nothing. There's nothing going to happen. And the path to that though, because this is a business is going to be free resource. There might also be that I have an annual event online seller crew, so I'll probably drop that in the beginning. So it's like some people are just going to see it, but it'll be free resource, free valuable resource, and then an email sequence that leads to an offer. Or maybe Brendan Burchard, I do his high performance planner, love the guy, but he, hes, he's fixated on this free offer, $7 offer, 49, $50 monthly continuity, 200 to 1000, offer to 10,000, right? So I like the path sometimes for me, the hardest one is that $7? Yeah,

Brett:

What is that going to be? Yeah,

Carlos:

Right. But that's the path I plan on taking with YouTube. The thing that I feel like is going to help me a lot with YouTube is I already have a pretty massive community. And one of the ways I've already monetized, say the wizards of eComm community is we have an optional monthly membership that people get access to all the classes that we've done. Nice. The recordings of all the classes. But one of the perks that comes with it is they get to have unlimited email access to myself and my team, which sounds a lot scarier than what it is. It's actually very scalable. And if you're into content creation and you're saying, okay, instead of just giving you this three line answer, I'm going to build out this amazing thing and I know other people are going to ask this, so I'll already have that piece of content for them.

So it, it's like a flywheel. So I already have, I know what people are asking and I'm going to create content on that. And you know what, maybe it says on YouTube that my chances of ranking to the top of page one on that particular content is not so good, but it is according to my group. And being able to not just create the content but promote the content to my group at the in-person events and via email will give me the jumpstart to that engine on YouTube. So that, that's my YouTube playbook right now. And I'm excited. Hardest part so far has been a teleprompter. You're not using a teleprompter use wonder.

Brett:

Yeah. Because it's one of those things where if you're listening to someone speak in person, you, you're engaged and there's a lot more room for someone to slow down or chase rabbits or gather their thoughts or whatever. People are pretty ruthless when they're watching content online. And if your YouTube video has too long pauses or there, there's too much, it feels too slow, people will bail. And so getting that focused scripted while still not sounding stiff it, it's pretty difficult. But it is necessary I think, in that format for sure.

Carlos:

So is everything else we've done and we've managed to do that. So I don't think the teleprompter kills

Brett:

Us. Yeah, yeah man, this is so good. I'm pretty pumped to build a community here. This is awesome. So then if someone is listening in or watching and they're like, okay, I got to check out wizards of in-person groups, how could they do that? And then what are the virtual group options as well?

Carlos:

Sure. They're their in-person groups. And the in-person groups are also live streams. So you could watch the in persons virtually as well or attend. The easiest way to get all the information on everything that we're doing as far as classes is we have an app in wherever you download apps called wizards of e-com. And you could just, it'll have it broken down by city when you get in there. And then one of the other cities will just be called virtual. So say you don't live near any of the cities that are currently visible, you can just pop into virtual and you'll see all the events. Our podcast wizards of e-comm podcast is on there. I don't do enough talking about the community on the podcast. So the app would probably be better. And wizards of e-comm dot com.

Brett:

That's awesome. That's awesome. And so I'm assuming, do you have more virtual attendees and group members now than in person? Or is in person still the majority? Or do you know off the top of your head?

Carlos:

No, I, I'm going to say there's more virtual just because of what it is. Well, COVID really blew that up. Prior to Covid, we were just in person, but then our community got so close with so many people virtually when we were forced to go virtual that afterwards it was kind of abandoning your brother. So it was like, how do we make this work? And that's why it's a very hybrid effect in an in-person event. Only the speakers on camera up and people online can ask questions. It, it's a work in progress still. And we get feedback and we try to make those improvements with the feedback. Sometimes the feedback is not as fast when it's audiovisual things that need to be changed, but that's what we do. So yeah, the app would be the best place for people to find out everything. The website wizard a e-com.

Brett:

Cool. And then the, I'll plug the YouTube channel as well. It looks like it's just wizards. Ofcom, yeah, wizards of e-com with one M. Obviously if you search for it and misspell it, you're, you're going to find it anyway. But Carlos, man, this was super fun. Love this insight. I knew you were doing amazing things. I did not have all the inside scoop. Now I do. And I'm even more impressed. And so, dude, I got to check out next time I'm in Miami, I got to check out one of the in-person meetups. I want to come hang out, want to come see, want to come see the Gathering and how you do it. So it'd be amazing. A hundred percent. Cool. Alright. Right. Any other asks? Any anything? Any other resources, anything else you want people to check out? Obviously check out the podcast as well. But any other cool stuff you want to point listeners to?

Carlos:

Man, coolest content I consume on the web is your stuff

Brett:

Not already.

Carlos:

If you're not already consuming Brett stuff consume it pays me really good

Brett:

To say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to send a payroll memo right now. I got to get Carlos paid for those comments. So that's awesome, man. Really appreciate it. Tons of fun. Looking forward to round two in the not too distant future.

Carlos:

Thanks. Thank you, man.

Brett:

And as always, thank you for tuning in. Hey, if you listen to this and you're like, man, this would be valuable. I know this person who needs community, who needs this insight, share with him and pass the word along. Would love to be introduced to your friends and I know Carlos would as well. And also, if you've not done it, leave that review on iTunes. Makes my day and helps other people find the show. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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Josh Hadley is a podcast host and a successful brand builder. His business Hadley Designs, just crossed 8 figures in annual sales.

One key to his success is hiring manager-level talent overseas. His approach to hiring is fantastic. It's definitely one of the better ones I've seen.

But that's not all! Before we dive into our discussion on hiring, we do a rapid-fire exchange of our top 6 takeaways from recent podcast episodes. Super fun and hopefully inspiring. 

Here's what we cover: 

Bonus Content: 

• Creative problem-solving as a competitive advantage. 
• The numbers behind successful infomercials. 
• The metric YouTube cares about to boost your brand's YouTube channel? 

Hiring Content: 

• How to get clear on WHO you should be hiring. 
• How to measure the success or failure of a new hire before you hire them. 
• How to create a compelling job description. 
• How to find, attract, and retain top-level talent overseas - get Josh's full formula. 

‍

Mentioned In This Episode:

Josh Hadley

• LinkedIn
• eComm Breakthrough
• Hadley Design

Brett Curry

• LinkedIn
• Twitter

Other Individuals / Resources

• Destaney Wishon
• Jordan Pine
• Mina Elias
• Liz Germain 
• Will Hughes
• Alex Hormozi 
• Michael E Gerber
• Criteria Corp
• Measure What Matters

‍

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of, OMG Commerce, and today we have a return guest and I am thrilled to have him and stoked about this topic. And so Mr. Josh Hadley is coming back for round two on the show. Josh is the CEO of Hadley Designs and he's the host of the e-Comm Breakthrough Podcast. Check that out wherever you like to consume your podcasts. And so today it's going to be kind of fun. Since we're both podcast hosts, we thought it'd be really interesting to kick off the show sharing a few takeaways that we've gathered from our brilliant guests in recent weeks and recent months. And then we're going to dive into the topic of hiring management level talent from overseas, which I think is something we all need to consider and all need to look at. So with that, Josh, welcome to the show, man. And how you doing,

Josh:

Brett? It's good to be back here. I saw you just last week too, and so this is great. We went a few months without talking to each other and now it's back to back, so this is

Brett:

Fun. Yeah, I think it was like maybe a couple years we didn't go without talking. And then yeah, we ran into each other at Seller in Austin. I had a chance to speak there. Got to chat with you a couple times. Awesome to see ya. And yeah, man, it sounds like you and your wife, your business is exploding in all the best ways. And so I'm going to mention people need to go back and listen to the episode where I had you and Becca both on the show. That was episode 151. That was over a hundred episodes ago. Holy cow. That was in February of 2021. But you guys tell the story, you guys are just the cutest, this awesome husband and wife team, but do you want to talk a little bit about what you guys sell and the growth you guys have had? And then we're going to get into the content for today.

Josh:

Yeah. Yeah, it, it's amazing. As we were just kind of reminiscing of the last time we talked, that was over two years ago now. And man, our business has completely changed and in a good way. And we've continued to double down on what's working, and we've seen great results because of that. But ultimately, our business started as a custom wedding invitation business and has since pivoted to a stationary empire. We have over 1200 different SKUs that we sell primarily on Amazon, and we crossed the eight figure mark at the end of last year, which was congrats, which is fantastic. And so yes, and we still have a lot more room to grow as well. We see a bright future ahead of us, and we're very optimistic.

Brett:

Love it, man. And your designs are awesome. Becca, your wife is extremely talented. You're a brilliant entrepreneur, strategist, business mind, and so you guys just work great together. So excited to see where you go and where you grow from here and happy to have insight and to watch you guys do that. So let's do this. So e-comm Breakthrough podcast. First of all, how do you hosting a podcast? Is it as fun as you thought it would be? Had it been harder than you thought it would be? Give folks at home the scoop who are maybe thinking I'd like to host a podcast.

Josh:

Yeah. Well, for myself, to me in my zone when I'm talking to people and interviewing people, that's my favorite thing. What I love about having a podcast, if we're just at dinner, right, Brett, and I'm talking to you about your business and I just continue to ask you 21 questions, you're like, bro, this is getting weird. Why do you want to keep diving down so deep? But in a podcast, it's almost like it's

Brett:

What you're supposed to do.

Josh:

Yeah. Like dude, just keep going deeper and deeper. There was one podcast guest that I had on Howard Tai and the strategies that he ended up sharing all the podcasts. He's like, dude, you made me spill the beans. This is the stuff I share in my mastermind group, but you just kept probing further and further. So anyways, I love that the podcast just gives you an excuse to really get the juiciness and real actionable tips and strategies from the guests. So for me, selfishly, I'm the one jotting down. I think most of the notes even more than the listeners, but

Brett:

Yeah, I totally agree. It's one of those phenomenal vehicles to connect with the really smart people and spend time with them and learn from them, and then pass that on, share that with others. So yeah, this is, just look back. So you got 200 and we're 250 plus episodes and been doing this since 2017, so I'm kind of addicted to it. I like it. Yeah, glad to have you joining the fold of podcast hosts. It's a

Josh:

Fun. Well, Brett, if you recall, you were the one I asked about what it would take to get a podcast started backup when we were in war room. Remember that? That was

Brett:

Right back in the war

Josh:

Room days four years ago. Yeah, I want to say. And I was like, dang, do you like it? Is it worth it? And you're like, yeah, dude, you should just start one and see what happens. And here we are.

Brett:

And here you are. Okay, awesome. So excited about that. Let's dive in though. Let's, we're going to each share three big takeaways from recent episodes that we've gotten, just little nuggets of inspiration, truth, e-commerce, goodness, that sort of thing. So what is your first takeaway?

Josh:

Yeah, so I had Destiny Wish on from Better ams on the podcast.

Brett:

I got to hang out. She was in Austin at Silicon. She was, well hang out with her. Yeah.

Josh:

Yep. She was one of the biggest mindset shifts that I got from recording that episode with her, which our team has really adopted at this point is doubling down on the keywords where our conversion rate on our products is better than the market average. And so what she shared was a new Amazon brand metrics. Amazon's coming out with so much data, it's hard to keep up. You've got search query performance, you got brand analytics. Well now this is brand metrics and this is located in the advertising console, not in Seller Central on the ad console. You need to go down to ad metrics and then you can get pretty far down in your product categories and you can see what the market average is for your conversion rate. And so take your PPC conversion rate for whatever particular keywords you're advertising for and see which keywords you're winning and where you have a higher conversion rate, then the market average, and then all, it's just a matter of pay to play at that point. Just keep doubling down on those and you'll watch your organic rankings increase. We have seen that work since we've been making those adjustments in our business. So that has been

Brett:

Super interesting and it totally makes sense because Amazon is motivated to sell more stuff. And that's like the key metric that Amazon looks at to determine ranking is you're obviously looking for relevance, the keyword match, but the greatest signal of that is someone buying after they type in that keyword. And so looking at what's converting above average through your ads, doubling down on the organic side, love that idea and shout out to Destiny. Good You in Austin. Awesome. So the one I'm going to share is this from episode two 30 of the E-Commerce Evolution podcast, Jordan Pine, he is a direct response TV veteran, so he's been working in the direct response TV world. He knows all the big names there. And so we were talking about how do you take lessons from direct response TV infomercials and translate that into success on YouTube or Facebook or any online advertising.

And so we talked a little about Ginsu knives and that famous ad where it cuts through the Pepsi can and then through the tomato and all these wild things. And he shared the numbers, the metrics behind infomercials. And this was fascinating to me. And I bet there's a lot of people out there that are like, how do they make money? 19 bucks for this product? How does that work? Well, the breakdown is this. They always push the phone number at the end of those commercials, but only about 20% of the audience or 20% of sales come from the phone. Not surprising for young people, but that's kind of the way that works. 30% comes from the website. So 30% of people visiting fancy whizzbang, peeler.com, whatever the product is. And then 50% comes on Amazon comes from Amazon. So people watching the infomercial getting excited about it and then just go into Amazon to find it.

And that's why, and I've seen this now, I was kind of alerted to this after the interview, I've seen a few infomercials where at the end they say, not available on Amazon, so don't go. Interesting. Don't go because you'll go and buy something else. And not, our product is not available on Amazon. So this is just a reminder to me of anything we are doing top of funnel, YouTube, Facebook, whatever, not infomercials per se, but just anything we're doing, we're going to drive traffic to Amazon. And so you got to have your Amazon game dialed in as well. And it's also a reminder that top of funnel efforts drive action at the bottom of the funnel. So shout out to Jordan Pine. Awesome, love that. What is your takeaway number two?

Josh:

Yeah, so I think coinciding with that takeaway there from Jordan is I learned this from Mina Elias from the Trivium Trivium group. I think you had Mina on your podcast as well.

Brett:

I know him, I don't think, no, he's been on the podcast, but I do know him. Yeah.

Josh:

Okay. So Mina, what he shared, he has a lot of experience in selling supplements on Amazon and also advertising as his own agency as well. So one thing that he shared, which I thought was fascinating, is as he was working on his supplement brand, one of the things he did is he reached out to somebody that created sales funnels, your one click add to cart type stuff, your Russell Brunson, ClickFunnels type of stuff. And what he did is he reached out to this guy and had him set up a bunch of different funnels. And long story short, the funnels didn't end up working out, but here's what he learned from the process. The person that was managing the funnels was just constantly making one tweak at a time. It was changing up the images, changing up the copy, and just testing, test, test, test, test, test.

And long story short, what he ended up doing is how that has impacted the clients that he works with as well as his own brand. And he said time and time again, the one test that continues to work the best for us is switching out your main image. And you need to just keep testing and testing and testing that main image because that is the biggest indicator or the biggest conversion rate lift mover out of all the tactics that you could do on Amazon. And it's so simple, but most people just set it and forget it. I mean, it's only a white background image, but if you really look at it, there's a lot of different creative ways that you could implement that. And so since then we have doubled down on our testing efforts. We've been using product pinyon as well as pfu to just, yeah, I love Pfu. Understand what incremental like change can we make to the way that these cards are showing up or the way that it's angled, and we're seeing some good performance of that as well. So it's a good mindset shift. Just simple tweaks can make a huge difference.

Brett:

Sometimes we make it too complex and sometimes we want to look for the hidden secret or the hidden tactic or strategy that nobody's talking about. So we want to do it when sometimes it's just as simple as just keep testing that image, because that is what drives decisions more than anything else on Amazon from a shopping point of view is does the image clearly communicate what this is, the quality? Is it what I want? Does it going to fit my needs? And so yeah, tweaking that testing. That makes a ton of sense. That's really, really good. Cool. All right. So next one for me. This is from Liz Jermaine, episode 2 34, talking about YouTube organic growth. Now I'm a YouTube ads guy. Always love YouTube ads. I like the YouTube organic side too, which is not my wheelhouse per se, but she came on and talked about the four stages of organic growth on YouTube.

And what's so cool is she and her sister started this fitness channel years ago. They haven't posted any new content like three or four years. She still makes a really nice income from that channel because some of the content ranks and it still gets views and it still gets engagement. So when you do YouTube organic, it will get better over time. It's in some ways the opposite of TikTok or Instagram reels where they can really skyrocket and go viral quickly, but then they die a very speedy death. YouTube can go viral too, but it often just ages and gets better over time. And so she talked about the metrics that YouTube loves the most. And I don't remember if this was the metric to rule all metrics, but I think it was go back and listen to the episode, just make sure, but it was time viewed.

So YouTube is obsessed with how long are people consuming your content? And if they watch it halfway through all the way through, they're really engaging with the content, that's what YouTube cares about. And they'll start feeding that content to more people if they find that the engagement or the view rate is really high. So check that one out. And then I'm going to go ahead and share two in a row, cause I want to end with your third one, and then we will roll right into the rest of the content. But episode 2 31, this was my buddy Will Hughes. We met each other when he was the head of growth at Organifi. And then we did an episode recently talking about Liquid Mind, and it's his process for creative problem solving. And it was one of the most fun episodes. I've had a lot of people talking about this sharing across the e-commerce forums and whatnot that everybody liked listening to Will. But one of the things he shared is that as business owners, we need to look at and just as problem solvers look for things that are undervalued and things that are overvalued, and then focus in on that and look for outsized opportunities. And so one of the examples he gave was the Oakland A's back in the days when they set the streak and when in the early days of Bill Billy Bean and the movie Moneyball, the era that was based on, have you seen the movie Moneyball, Josh? I

Josh:

Have, yeah. You're talking about the old days when people actually cared to show up at Oakland A games, because right now it's the opposite problem

Brett:

Is that I don't follow baseball too closely. It's a great sport. I don't follow closely. So yeah, this is back, I guess in more of the glory days of the A, but prior to Billy Bean kind of turning things around and go watch the movie Moneyball, it really showcases that they were dumpster fire material. So what Billy Bean and this B baseball analyst played by Jonah Hill uncovered was that a metric that really matters in baseball that's undervalued is just on base percentage. And it doesn't matter if you walk or whatever, if you get on bait, if you get on base, that's what counts. Because really as a manager, as someone building a baseball team, you're trying to manufacture runs, you're trying to buy runs. And so they had one of the lowest salary caps in baseball. The Yankees were like 10 x, their salary caps, something crazy like that, or salary, payroll.

And they were able to create the longest winning streak in baseball season history. And they had tremendous success because they found what was undervalued and they found pitchers who had great numbers but looked goofy, throwing the ball guys that walked a whole lot and got on base that nobody wanted. And then they built this team of misfits, so to speak, and that's probably a little bit of an exaggeration, but they looked at what was undervalued, what was overvalued, and they looked for outsized opportunities, which there's so many opportunities in our business like that if we train ourselves to look at it that way.

Josh:

So I love that. I think that is such an important mindset shift as I follow Alex Hor as well, one of the things he's been doubling down on what of

Brett:

My days

Josh:

Love that guy. In a lot of his conversations, he talks a lot about, it's not how hard you work, how many motivational speeches do we hear that's like, you got to burn the midnight oil, you need to sleep for four hours. And it's like it all comes down to leverage. Yes. And understanding where's your time best spent? There's way too many things that you could do in your business, so focus on the ones that when you pull the lever actually provide an outsized return. So it kind of correlates with that same principle, but

Brett:

Totally love it. Super awesome. So your takeaway number three, what do you got?

Josh:

All right. Takeaway number three, I had the chance to interview Michael e Gerber. He was the amazing author of the E-Myth it, and I think most entrepreneurs have read that book and it's

Brett:

Transformational. I read it three or four times back before we, the beginning of OMG 2010, I read that book, consumed it over and over again and really shaped a lot of my early strategy in omg.

Josh:

Yeah, I mean, it truly is transformational and creates such a big mindset shift in an entrepreneur to understand, Hey, I need to work on my business instead of in the business. And that's one thing that he talked about during that episode is like, Hey, by the way, entrepreneurs, you don't own a business until that business can grow without you actively working inside the business.

Brett:

Yes,

Josh:

Yes. Right. And unfortunately, I'm guilty of that myself. I can't walk away and be like, come back a year from now and be like, sweet. Our business is doubled in size now. That's what I'm trying to set up right now, so that we can get to a point where the business is growing a on its own because of the people that we have put in. And one thing that he talked about and when, because I followed up with a question, well, based on your 50 plus years of experience of hiring people, how do you know how to identify a level talent? And he was like, how? And he shared a fantastic analogy. So I'll ask you the question, Brett. How easy is it to become a Navy seal?

Brett:

I think it would be pretty difficult based on the fact that it's an 80% failure rate or something. And it's usually pretty tough. Dudes who are trying out to be a Navy seal

Josh:

It basically it's the top of the top, right? And they have a high failure rate, and they don't just accept anybody. They don't just accept anybody, number one. But then number two, you actually have to go through a bootcamp in training camp before you will even become a Navy Seal, right? And it is terrible. And basically the analogy, they have to go through hell and back in order to make it as a Navy seal. And so similarly, he said, that's the type of process you need to implement in your business. And so that is what we have done. I would like to say a very rigorous hiring process. As we hire management level staff overseas, we're able to filter from thousands of applicants and find genuinely a level talent to a point where honestly, people that have come to work with us have been like, I have never been through such a difficult hiring process, and I've worked for companies such as ibm. Those are the companies where even our process is more thorough and it's provide, in my opinion, outsized returns in our business because of the team members we've been able to.

Brett:

Do you want to clarify a little bit? So are you screaming at prospects and yelling at them, drill sergeant style, making 'em do

Josh:

Pushups and having them run through the mud, hold their breath,

Brett:

Water, getting water, yeah, yeah. Fake drowning 'em, stuff like that. No, but I do like the idea of making the process difficult. And it is interesting, and I love that comparison actually, that hey, it was easier to get a job at Coca-Cola or IBM or whatever than work for you. But businesses are size, and we're not small, you guys aren't small, but when you got a team of 50 or 70 or whatever, every new hire is really important. And so you got to get it right. And especially if you got 15 or 20, every new hire is so critical. So yeah, we do a round of four interviews, we do a team interview, we do exercises, we do personality profiles, and we still don't get it right every time. But at the end of it, you're like, I've got a pretty clear picture of who this person is, and if we didn't scare them off or run them off yet, they're probably a pretty good fit for the team. So love that. And hey, that's a perfect transition. Let's talk about hiring management level talent from overseas. We're a US-based company, but we do have a couple of support people that are overseas that have been phenomenal and amazing, but you've taken it one step further. You got management level team members overseas. So talk to me a little bit about the why, and then let's get into the how you've done it.

Josh:

Yeah, I think why is the fact that inside the US salaries are only increasing. We saw a huge, huge spike in Aries big time from covid and the great resignation than everybody was just like, how much more can you pay me? And so now, generally, and in addition to that, you've got inflation. So salaries are way up high, higher than they've ever been, and they ain't coming back down.

Brett:

Nope, nope. So

Josh:

What do you do if you want to go find some kick butt managers that actually are worth a darn right, then you've got to go pay top dollar to attract them. Well, I kind of took that approach and thought, Hey, I do want to pay top dollar, but I don't want to pay top dollar in the us so I'm going to go pay top dollar in the Philippines, in Mexico, anywhere else where there's a greater arbitrage, so to speak, in terms of those salary gaps. So the reason behind it is we wanted to pay top tier to track top tier talent, but we didn't want to afford US based salaries. So that's number one. So what did we do? Well? And then the other reason why behind that is early on, we at now have 25 team members on our team, but early on when we were hiring our first, our core team members that joined us were an r and d manager to help with research and development of new products, and then a product manager. Those were honestly some of our first hires. They are still with us critical

Brett:

Hires.

Josh:

Whoa, still with

Brett:

Us. And both those team members are overseas, is that correct?

Josh:

Both of 'em are overseas and they are absolutely crushing it. And here's the difference maker. I hired them, no. Oh, I'm probably paying maybe a little bit more than what I could be paying somebody else to fill this specific role right here right now. But what I did is I'm willing to afford a little bit more in order to hire management level staff right now that can grow as the business grows rather than I think, and here's what we hear all the time, hiring people overseas is not new. That's not a revolutionary sure idea for everybody talks about, oh, go get yourself a VA from the Philippines. I don't talk about hiring any VA VAs. We actually go and hire specialists and we go and hire management level staff over in the Philippines, which I think is your difference. So we're not talking three to $5 an hour team members. We're talking 10, $15 an hour team members that can just crush it, and these are going to be very well educated individuals. So that's kind of the background behind it all, Brett. So it ultimately comes down to hiring really good people that are almost overqualified for the position to begin with, but that can grow with you as your business grows. So yeah, does that make sense? For

Brett:

Totally makes sense. And I think it's one of those things where there's just, there's so much talent overseas that's often overlooked or maybe they're just not getting the opportunities that they want. And so you can come in, pay them an amazing wage for what they're doing, but you're finding management level people, and I think some of some bigger corporations have understood this. Google as an example, and we've got, at any given time, five or so dedicated Google reps that work with OMG. And some of our favorite reps, the smartest, the most talented, the most helpful were overseas and most of them lived and worked in San Francisco, but they were hired actually from overseas and then moved. And so companies are doing this now, but you can do it too, is kind of the takeaway. And so let's walk through then. I think you had mentioned you have a seven step process or something. I don't know if we'll have time to get into all seven steps or whatever, but what are some of the steps or how to go about doing this?

Josh:

Yeah, so I'll share the seven steps. I'll kind of go through each of 'em so we make sure we cover all seven before we tune out or of the podcast here today. But if you want to dive deeper, just let me know. So step number one is you need to first understand who you should actually be hiring. And as an entrepreneur, one of the best things you need to do, and you should do this regularly, probably once a quarter, is do a two week time study where you're writing down in 15 minute increments. What you are doing during those 15 minutes sounds painful and tedious for two weeks and it is, but you're going to come back from those two weeks and you're going to have a very clear picture of where you're spending the majority of your time. And so that's kind of how we've built our team.

We didn't just go out and hire 25 team members overnight. We identified where was I spending most of my time? So we talked about research and development manager and then a project manager as our first hires. Why? Because I spent most of my time looking for new product ideas on Amazon. And then secondly, I spent the rest of my time just coordinating of, Hey, we've got this product idea. We need to do keyword research, we need to set up PPC campaigns. And I was the one having to set all of that stuff up, but I had to kind of refine this process of how do we go from idea all the way to this product is launched on Amazon. And so I identified those as the two key roles, and then we started creating processes and bringing those team members in. So likewise, as soon as I hired them, I was able to then fill my time bucket up with something else as soon as I spent most of my time on ppc. Then we outsourced it to an agency and we recently brought it in-house, right? And so it was just step by step by step getting to where we are. And so that's why conducting time studies on an ongoing basis will reveal to you who you can bring in that will provide, we talked about that. Leverage, a leverage of your time will make an outsized return. So that's step number one. Does that make sense? Love that,

Brett:

Man time. Yeah, time studies sounds a little bit painful, but one, you're, you'll probably uncover ways you can work better and work more efficiently, but then two, it's going to show you who do you need to hire? And if you hire this role to take away this stress or this amount of time from your day, what more could you focus on to get done? Love that. So step one, understand who you should be hiring, what's step two?

Josh:

Step number two is you need to get clear with how you are going to track whether that person you hire is succeeding or failing in their role. So how do you do this? You need to establish KPIs, key performance indicators for that role. Now here's a quick hack for you. If you're trying to figure out, hey, what's a good, what are some good KPIs for an Amazon PPC manager? There's no better place to start than chat G P T these days just to get some ideas. It doesn't mean that that's the Bible, and that's the truth, and that's what you should use whatever chat G P T spits out, but use it as inspiration. It will give you some really good ideas and then customize them to your business. But they need to be those smart goals. They need to be specific, they need to be measurable. At the end of the day, you need to be able to track and say like, yes, our tacos are below 15% yes or no. And so that team member knows for themself, I'm a either winning or I'm B failing. And it's clear for them and it's also clear for you and it aligns you in that team member to make sure you're going down the right path. So that's

Brett:

Step member team. And what's so important about that is I think all good employees want to know. They want to know how am I doing? Are you pleased? Am I on the right track? Am I meeting obligations and ambiguity or not being clear on all that stuff? That really decreases satisfaction and decreases results. So love the practice of KPIs. I'm a big fan of the book Measure What Matters by John Dore, and he was at Google and he kind of talks about the kpi, KPI and OKRs, the objectives and key results, KPIs are key performance indicators. He talks about this process of, hey, when you have that right, it creates alignment and accountability and learning and improving, and it just makes such a difference. You get the right person, clear expectations, you measure it, you talk about it, the performance is going to be really, really strong. So love that, love

Josh:

That. And just like you talked about, I mean, here's the key. It's not only going to help you and your business, but that's how you attract a level talent, right? Because a level talent doesn't want to go apply for a job that it sounds like they have no idea what they're doing. Exactly. They don't. Yeah,

Brett:

Exactly. It's like people want to join a winning team and play a players don't want to play for coaches that don't have their stuff together. People may hate Bill Belichick or maybe he's not my buddy, but I play my best when I'm with him. And obviously you don't have to be a ruthless or a jerk to make things work, but having a system and having KPIs and having OKRs, that makes a big difference. So awesome. Point number three.

Josh:

Yep. So step number three, this is piggyback off of piggybacking off of step number two, but take those KPIs and create a compelling job description and make sure your KPIs are KPIs are part of that job description so that again, you're attracting the right A level talent and then you're going to post this job post. But here is the secret in step number three. Most people, it's just kind of like that, build it and they will come mentality post the job, and they will come faults, okay, you need to put on your sales hat. And myself having a sales background, I'm not one to stand idly by. And so as soon as we post a job and we'll post it on Upwork online jobs.ph, we'll do Indeed, and then we'll do workable, and they've got a new AI thing that's been pretty cool. So with Upwork, we will go in and on Upwork, you can set up your filters.

What's the rate you want to be paying somebody? What country do you want to be from? Yep. And then you can type in, I want a PPC manager type it in. And it's going to have a list of probably hundred thousands of people that meet those specifications and your filters that you set up. And then you can individually invite every single one of those guys to apply for your position. And we don't spend the time looking at their resume or their background. This is a spray and pray approach, so to speak, where it's like we will invite thousands of applicants. We will do the exact same thing on online jobs.ph. They limit you to reaching out to a hundred people per month or something like that. So we've opened up numerous accounts at the same time, all leading just to one same job post, but it is, we're going to get of people to be aware of our job posting on Indeed.

We just run the ads. So you can't actively promote there. Workable dot workable has a new AI where they've seen people's resumes that have applied for PPC jobs in the past and they've stored them somewhere, and you can actually reach out to those people that they have their contact information from and invite them to apply to your position. So that's kind of been a new development. That's been pretty cool. So you do all of that. That's basically step number three is like post the job, write a compelling job description, and then work your butt off. And this is probably not you as the entrepreneur, but ideally your executive assistant is now inviting thousands of people to a play.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah. It's so important. And yeah, it's one of those things where if you just do the first step, what are you going to get? A few applicants, but if you want the best, you got to work, man. And yeah, love that, that trying to get thousands of applicants. And then do you have a process, and this may be a lead into step number four. I may be skipping steps, but do you have a way then how do you weed that down? How do you weed it down a

Josh:

Thousand? Yeah, everybody's like, oh, I can't even imagine having a thousand applicants supplied to my job. So yes, here is how we go down from a thousand applicants down to 10, and an entrepreneur listening to this episode, I want you to know that all of this, you can create a process for it. This is how it works for our business right now. Everything's out to where we get a thousand applicants, and then I'm only looking at the top 10 at the end of the day. That's it. That's my level of involvement. So this is something, and the cool thing

Brett:

About that is though, if you shoot for the thousand and then you narrow down to 10, that's going to be a way better 10 than if you'd only gotten 10 in the first place. Oh,

Josh:

A hundred percent. Or that 10 is better than the a hundred, right?

Brett:

Yeah, totally.

Josh:

The higher the number is. So again, let's talk about the specifics. This is step number four. How do you start weeding out these 999 applicants, right? 990. So what we do immediately, my executive assistant, once somebody applies, she will immediately send them this canned response. Thanks for your application, your background looks great. Can you please complete this assessment? Okay. Now what this assessment is done through criteria corp. And the reason why is you don't have to pay per assessment. It's unlimited as assessments. And that's the secret of about it. And they have what's called an assessment. It's a personality assessment, and then it's like this cognitive aptitude test, and this is basically, it's an IQ score in a way, but they've done, through their data analysis and data science, they've seen that candidates with higher scores typically end up with higher job performance overall. You can read all their studies.

So anyways, we've relied on that number, and so far it's been very helpful. So we'll set our threshold of we want EV people to be above the 70th percentile, and so that's going to weed out 90% of your candidates there. You're going to go all the way down to a thousand applicants down to a hundred, okay? So that's step number four. Then moving into step number five is you're going to take these 100 applicants now that have passed your, I, we'll call it the IQ score at this point, that they speak good English because that's part of the test, that they have a personality that fits the job, because that's part of the test. So all of these things are working in your favor. Here's the secret sauce to step number five. You need to create a test project that is a most similar case study as you can mimic to what they will be doing in their role.

So in ppc, if I were hiring a PC manager, I would download my latest report from Amazon and I would just feed it over to 'em, and I'd be like, what can you find? You guys do, Brett, you'll do PC audits, right? Yep, yep. I'm going to give it to them and say, Hey, give me a PC audit. What do you find working well? What do you find not working well? And if you're coming up with this test on your own, for example, a supply chain manager, we've done this where it's like we took some random skews and then we put in what the current inventory stock is, what the velocity is, the lead time, who the manufacturer is, blah, blah, blah. And then we ask them, what SKUs do you need to order now? What SKUs do you need to order later, and how many units should you be ordering? And so on and so forth. And then you should have the answer to those results so that you can come back and review the test project and see, do they know their stuff or do they not know your stuff? And typically what I have found, the people that crush it, that it's like, oh, you did 10 times better than I even did on this supply chain project, right? Even myself, right?

Brett:

Yeah. I love that so much. That was a game changer for us when we implemented that. And again, we are in the us, but I totally see how this translates anywhere. Put someone through an exercise because you're going to find things that maybe the resume's great, maybe they're super smart, but maybe they really don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the position you're hiring for. And the exercise will reveal that, and yeah, can't recommend that highly enough, so totally makes sense. That's step five. What about step six?

Josh:

Yep. I'm going to just double down on step five real quick and saying, yeah, one thing that I learned in my mba, one thing went to the University of Utah one course, and one statement that has continued to stick with me to this day is this, and this was from my organizational behavior class. They have proven across all businesses that the interview is the indicator of somebody's likelihood to succeed.

Brett:

So true. Period.

Josh:

So true. Yeah. Because many people can look good in an interview and BS their way through it, and then you've got a dud on your hands, whereas like a test project, you can't BS your way through it.

Brett:

Yep. And yeah, what does an interview really measure? It measures people that are just good communicators, which is important, but it's not the number one factor. And yes, some of your rockstar candidates might not interview the best, and some of the people that interview the best could be an absolute dud once they get in the business. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Love that. Step six

Josh:

Step. Yep, step six. So now we're going to take these from 100 that we send the test project to. About 33 to 50% are actually going to do it. The rest aren't even going to do it. Okay. So from those 33 to 50, you are going to end up finding about 10 to 15 that are really solid. On average, you'll get about 10 to 15 that you're like, all right, these are good. Here's what you need to do. In step six, set up a group interview, and you do this in batches of five. This isn't a group interview with your company. You grab five candidates at a time, and they are interviewing to together with you. So they are interviewing kind of against each other. Now you're going to ask 'em a series of maybe four or five questions. You're going to ask the exact same question to each one. They'll just kind of go in line and talking about that. But number one, you get to see how they react under pressure and in a surprised environment. They're like, oh, I've never seen this. This is weird before.

Brett:

This is high pressure, especially in this case where English is almost earlier their second language. And so how do they communicate under pressure and in a weird environment? Yeah. Love this.

Josh:

And then the secret question we ask at the end is, all right, this may make you uncomfortable, but it's my favorite question to ask. You can't nominate yourself. So out of all of these candidates, who would you hire and why? So now, legendary forced to pick somebody right from the group that's not themself. And what we found is that more often than not, we're bating a thousand percent right now. They've always identified the person that we end up hiring. And I think it's beneficial to the candidates too. I mean, most people are surprised. They're like, I've never done something like this, but I actually like it because I never see who I'm competing against. And so

Brett:

If they don't job, and also if you're the one being interviewed in this group and you see, oh, man, this person just nailed it. She did a perfect job. You get to see what she did, and so maybe you don't get the job. Maybe you lost out, but you got a front row seat to see how it's done and how other people perceive it. And man, that's brilliant. I had not heard of that before, but I absolutely love that idea.

Josh:

Yep. So sweet. Yes, for all those reasons. Yeah, people, it's actually a good thing. The candidates, I've never like, it's good for the candidates too. I was terrible. They actually enjoy the process, right? L last but not least, step number seven, we are going to do a one-on-one interview, and this is going to be where we follow the top grading method here, and you do your threat of assessment or you threat of reference check here. We have a lot of things that we ask people in this one-on-one interview, but to talk about it at a high level, what you're looking for is a pattern of success and promotion in their career history, even starting at a young age, even when they're in high school, were the team leads in a sporting organization? Were they the captain or were they the club president? Because you'll find those same people will naturally be the leaders that just kind of come to fruition throughout their entire career, right?

So you're looking for a pattern of success. And then number two, what you want to do is you want to use that thread of reference, check with them, and here's like the specific questions you want to ask them. You say, Hey, all right, great. You worked at Coca-Cola. Who is your manager? Who is your direct supervisor at Coca-Cola? What's their name? Oh, it was John Smith. Okay, thank you. When I reach out to John, and now I'm just kind of assuming the sale here, right? I'm just telling him I'm going to be reaching out to John. I don't have his contact info yet. I'll get it from you. But when I reach out to John, I'm going to ask him to rate you on a scale of one to 10 and why? How will John rate your job performance on a scale of one to 10? And so it's kind of that truth serum question where it's like they can't BSU now because they know, oh crap, what will John actually say is going to be what they're going to respond with? Then the next question we ask them is, what will John say is an area of improvement for yourself? So it's a much better version than the what's your weakness? And then everybody spins it to some BS thing. My

Brett:

Organization, I just care too much. Yeah, I work too hard. I work too much nights and weekends, I give too much to charity, whatever. That's my weakness. I'm trying to overcome it.

Josh:

So you actually get down to understanding what is actually something they need to improve upon. And then the last thing is what will John say is your greatest strength that you brought to the organization? And then dude, at the end of the interview, we'll email that reference and just double check those answers and yeah. Yeah, that's it.

Brett:

Super good, man. Super good. We do several interviews in addition to the exercise and a couple personality profiles. I think one of the things that shifted our interview process is getting people to talk about experiences. Yeah, I hate the question. Tell me your greatest strengths. What are your greatest weaknesses? Blah, blah, blah. But hey, tell me about a time when you disagreed with a previous manager. What was it about? What did you do, and how did that resolve? Or what about when you were asked, tell me about a time when you were asked to do something that didn't meet your standards, what did you do? And then you can just kind of tell like, Hey, does that ring true? Is that, what is that like? So lots of, tell me about a time when, and we love a resource. I'll mention Amazon talks about the, they call it the bar raise program where they look at anybody we hire for a given department or role, will they raise the bar meaningfully in that department?

Because what often happens is you hire somebody and then they hire someone if you're not in charge of hiring anymore. And sometimes the quality of the candidates gets worse as you go, but you got to look at, Hey, each new hire, how can they raise the bar? And I like that, dude. I love this approach, and I think this is going to be a fit for a lot of people. There's some amazing, amazing management level candidates out there globally, and so this is a way to get in touch with them. Well, Josh, this has been fantastic. Love sharing the insights and takeaways from our podcasts and those seven steps for hiring talent overseas is amazing. How can people check out the podcast and how can people get in touch with you if they're so inclined?

Josh:

Yeah, it definitely encourage people to go check out the podcast e-com, breakthrough with two M's. Go to your preferred podcasting platform of your choice. And then we also have our website, e-com, breakthrough.com. And if people want to reach out to me, they can do so at Josh at e-com, breakthrough.com, and would love to hear from your listeners. And I do like a free strategy audit once a month, so if people want to throw their hat in the ring and have me take a peek inside their business, I can do that as well.

Brett:

Awesome. So definitely check that out. You can tell just by those tips how sharp Josh is at running businesses and growing businesses, and so definitely check out the podcast. I'm just curious, so what is your preferred podcast app? So when Josh Hadley podcaster is listening to other podcasts, what do you listen on?

Josh:

Well, I originally started out by listening on Apple Podcasts, but then for whatever reason, maybe it was my phone, but the app just became so glitchy it would freeze all the time. And so then I transitioned over to Google Podcasts, but now I'm having the exact same problems with Google, so now I'm back onto Apple. So come. I haven't touched Spotify yet though. So what about, you

Brett:

Haven't used Spotify either? I know several people that use Spotify. I know, or actually I know I don't know anyone. I just hear that YouTube podcasts are growing. That's the way people are consuming it. I've never tried Google Podcasts. I don't like the Apple podcast app. Don't an Overcast fan. So Overcast is a podcasting app. It's available on for iTunes, and I'm an Apple and Mac user. It's awesome, but it's also available on Android, so Overcast, that's my podcast app of choice. So there you go. I love it. Awesome, man. Well, Josh, this has been fantastic. Thanks for taking the time. And hey, little preview, I'm going to be on your show in the fall, so people need to, that's right. Get up to speed now. Listen to the podcast now and then, hey, I'll be a guest here in a few months. Looking forward to having you on my show.

Awesome. Thanks, Josh. We'll have to do it again sometime. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We'd love to hear from you. What would you like to hear more of on the show if you've not done it already, we'd love that review on iTunes. Makes my day. Also helps other people discover the show and also connect with me on the socials. I'm getting pretty active on LinkedIn, marginally active on Twitter. I am there. Or look me up on Facebook. Would love to connect with you on the socials And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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What started as a way to boost sales during slow summer months has turned into two of the largest shopping days of the year: Prime Day.

More accurately, the event is 48 hours of lightning deals, promos, coupons, and shopping frenzies.

Prime Day is a great way to attract new customers and gain momentum that can impact your business. But, it’s not without risk or peril. It's not uncommon for things to break or go wrong in the lead-up to Prime Day or during the event itself.

In this episode, two OMG experts are joining me to talk about maximizing Prime Day sales. If you sell on Amazon, this is a MUST-watch episode. The insights are not only applicable to this Prime Day 2023 but will boost your success for future Prime Days, as well as upcoming holidays.

What we cover:

• Pricing Strategy - Raising your prices is a no-no in Amazon’s book. Lowering prices is almost always welcomed from Amazon’s perspective but could be detrimental to your business. Here’s how you should think about pricing strategy leading up to Prime Day.
• Listing Optimization - While you don’t want to make big changes leading up to the event, you do want to give your listings a boost. Here’s what you should consider changing and what you shouldn’t.
• Overall Ad Strategy - Your ad strategy could make or break your Prime Day performance. How should you approach bidding and budgeting, and what factors should shape your ad strategy?
• Post-Prime Day Ad Strategies - How can you get new customers who learned about your brand during Prime Day to… 1. Buy again, and 2. Buy other products you sell? By running great ads.
• How much caffeine should you consume while watching and managing Prime Day performance?
• Plus, extra tips and bonuses like Amazon Live, Amazon Influencers, Amazon Posts, and more that could give you an edge.

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Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and today is going to be a very special episode. We're talking Prime Day 2023. We're going to get you ready some last minute prep ways we can leverage Prime Day now, but also how we think about post Prime day because there's lots of opportunities right after Prime Day as well. And I love episodes like this one. I just love Prime Day and love Amazon in general. But the main reason I love this episode is because I'm not the only one from OMG on the show. So this is part of the OMG Experts series and we have got two bonafide legit marketing OGs and Veterans of the Space and key OMG commerce team members. So we've got Rachael Cowden and Rachael is an ABM specialist, which stands for Amazon Brand Management. Been with OMG for going on two years, did five years of marketing and copywriting prior to that. And she understands what it takes to market products on Amazon, how to optimize listings and optimize sales, and she's just a wealth of knowledge. So Rachael, welcome to the show and how's it going?

Rachael:

Good, thanks for having me. It's first podcast. So first podcast,

Brett:

Exciting. You look so comfortable, so confident. Yeah, like you were born to do podcasts.

Rachael:

Thank you. It's because of you.

Brett:

So good, good. It's going to be awesome. And then the next OMG expert, Mr. Jonathan think. And Jonathan has been with OMG for five years. Y'all five years is an eternity in the online space. All the clients that work with Jonathan Love him. He is a master of Amazon ads. He understands Amazon in general. He's just a good business strategist as well. And also, I don't know if it's going to come up on the podcast, no pressure. He's kind of a master of puns, so his pun game is on point. He's one of the only guys and one of the only people at OMG that can trade puns. Kind of Barb for Barb with co-founder Chris Brewer. So anyway, Jonathan, how's it going man? And welcome to the show.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, going good. Thanks for having me. But also, same as Rachael, my first podcast as well.

Brett:

First podcast. I feel bad guys, I feel bad that we've, I've been doing podcasts so long and I haven't had you guys on until right now, but hey, we're getting started and we're here today. So that's all that matters. So what's the vibe like both in the Amazon department and the vibe with clients here as we kind of enter the home stretch approaching prime day, people excited, people nervous, there's a lot of energy with what's going on here as we're prepping.

Speaker 3:

I think it's a mix of both really. Especially for my clients. There are a couple accounts that are seeing some nice upswings leading into Prime Day and they're seeing some steady year over year growth right now where earlier the year we had seen downtrend. So I think it's a mixed optimism because they know it was soft earlier, but it's looking decent now. So I think there's a hopeful, hopeful it'll be real good.

Brett:

Yeah, so interesting. I want to unpack that just a little bit, but go ahead Rachael. Cause you had something there too.

Rachael:

Yeah, no, I was just going to echo that. It's nervousness but also excitement. And for me on the ABM side, a lot of our prep goes in a little bit before prime day, so you're pushing through some of those big changes and so we're kind of coming off of doing a bunch of big things to get ready for the event and now it's just seeing how it all unfolds and monitoring everything as we head into.

Brett:

Yeah, really great point. If you're doing all of your prep now, I hate to inform you, you're late on a lot of things, so we'll be talking about some last minute prep today, plus some of the things we'll share, we'll definitely apply for next prime day because say this Prime day's not going anywhere and so you got to be ready for next prime day as well. But yeah, a lot on the Amazon brand management side, you got to plan early, some of the ad pieces, there are a few levers we can pull kind of last minute, but some of that has to happen early. So let's talk a little bit about Prime Day by the numbers over the last couple years and then I want you guys to share from your perspective, because you guys were in, were in the trenches last year and curious, we'll get some takeaways from last year and some expectations for this year and then we'll get into some of the prep items.

So a little bit of info on Prime Day. It did start in 2015 as a way for Amazon to celebrate their 20th anniversary, and it was really a way to get sales in what is usually the slowest month of the year. July July's a pretty bad month for retail in general, and so Prime Day began humble beginnings, but actually not super humble if you think about it, 900 million in sales that first year on the Prime day event, but it's grown steadily. Biggest growth, probably no surprise to anyone, was from 2019 to 2020. So during the pandemic we all were shopping at home, prime Day exploded, 7.16 billion in sales in 2019. Jumped all the way up to 10 billion in 2020. Actually, again, that wasn't the largest percentage growth though, was it? Anyway, it was a huge jump. And then in 2021 it was 11 billion, 11.19 billion and the last year, 12.09 billion. So last couple years has been growing at about eight 9% a year, which is still staggering when you think that for a two day event it's 12 billion in sales. To give you a little bit of respect, I looked up the total annual sales. All right, and I'm just going to throw this out here for you guys. No prep here. I did not give you guys any numbers ahead of time. So this may be wildly off. What do you think JC Penney legacy retailer, how much business does JCPenney do annually?

Rachael:

That's a great question. Literally no

Brett:

Idea. Like JC Penny, I haven't thought about them for years. It's a good

Rachael:

Point

Speaker 3:

Still. Yeah, I have not been in one since the nineties. Let's,

Brett:

Dude, it was the place to be in the nineties, man. They like apparel. All the cool kids are wearing stuff from JC Penny. I aspired to wear stuff from JC Penney as a youngster, and now I'm not even sure where the closest JC Penney is, but yeah, go ahead, Jonathan.

Speaker 3:

I was going to say like 5 billion, which it's, I don't even know if that's crazy Glow or

Brett:

That's, that's actually remarkably close. It's like seven point, I actually wrote down now a word I put it like 7.9 billion a year per year is what JCPenney does. Amazon during the prime day event, 12.9 billion, all done in that short window, which is pretty crazy to think about. And so for that kind of volume to be happening, and for Amazon still to be growing at eight, 10% per year is crazy. So a couple things from last year that were interesting, and I want to get perspective from you guys. 300 million items purchased last Prime Day. The math breaks down to about 60,000 items purchased per minute, which is wild, and I don't think this was reflected for the OMG group of clients, but busiest shopping day was 8:00 PM to 9:00 PM on Wednesday, July 13th. Last year was on the 12th and the 13th. And so it was a really interesting year last year, and we saw kind of a different mix of products being sold last year versus previous years. What do you guys remember about Prime Day last year that stood out to you?

Rachael:

Yeah, yeah. I'll piggyback off of what you said about a different mix of products is that that's absolutely what we saw and that instead of people splurging on some of those more expensive high-end items, people were hunting for the deals they were looking for, what was discounted and what do they need. We talked a lot about how there are things like diapers that was doing great on a lightning deal, and that's just because, so the people were really more deal oriented in this past event,

Brett:

Which deals are always important, but last year it was especially true. What do you remember about last year?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, my main takeaway was just the disparity from the two prime days prior because 2020 and 2021 were just such unique years for e-commerce and really exploded. And then 2022 was kind of Amazon's first return back to a normal schedule. And so it underwhelmed a little bit just compared to the explosiveness of the two years prior. And Rachael was saying there's just that category of vertical shift, and we also saw kind of a bigger push towards travel related stuff because all the lockdowns were pretty much done and nobody was really worried about that anymore. And so there's definitely emphasis on that, which there always is in summer, but I think it was a little bit more extreme because people were just still itching to get out at summer.

Brett:

Totally agree. There were just some interesting things happening last year. E-comm was slowing down quite a bit. People were getting outside, inflation was kicking in, so you had people really looking for bargains and deals and looking for staple items rather than luxury goods. So likely prime day wasn't as great as you had hoped last year if you didn't have a killer deal and if you were more in the luxury category, obviously there were exceptions, but last year was a unique year for sure. Now, Jonathan, you said something interesting a little bit ago where first part of this year was flat, but we've seen some things break loose the last couple months. I've got the unique perspective. I get to watch kind of the d TOC side of OMG commerce. So we manage between Google and Amazon over a hundred million in ad spend. So I'm going to look at a lot of data, a lot of Google ad spend and really April and May of this year have seen some significant growth for a lot of our clients that were up like 20% year over year, April and May 1st half of the year, pretty flat.

We saw the same thing with ad spend up about 20% year over year where January, February, March we're a little bit flat. So it'll be interesting to see will 2023 look more like previous years or will it look more like last year? Anything you guys are hearing or seeing in the industry or any thoughts you have on what this year's prime day could be like. And we're not holding you to it if you no one can predict the future. So if we're wrong here, it's okay. It's just fun to make guesses.

Rachael:

Yeah, I don't know. I would always anticipate to see something similar to the switch last year is that people are still going to be on the hunt, but Jonathan, what do you think? Inflation's

Brett:

Still real, right? Inflation is still I, and then I think it's come down a little, but it's still people are feeling the pinch, so likely going to be in leaning into deals and maybe some staples again too. What say you Jonathan?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. I'm kind of an internal skeptic in terms of doom and gloom. I'm like, yeah, this economy is terrible but it's, it's been doing better, but there is still almo at least a month until prime day hits. So a lot can happen in a month, but past two months have been trending really nicely. So I'm optimistic, I think should be stronger than last year. But I don't think going to be crazy explosive like we were saying, 20 20, 20 21,

Brett:

It might not be the same explosive growth we've had in years past. And part of that's just the law of large numbers. Part of that is inflation driven. Part of that is just because where else can Amazon really grow in the United States? Everybody's a prime member already that wants to be or that is able to be. And so I think it will grow. It'll likely be in those single digit areas would be my guess. And that eight 9% maybe pushing 10% growth, but I'm very curious to see what the product mix is going to look like. Will it be more staples? Will we see some luxury things kind of sneaking in? And so that will be interesting to observe. So let's talk guys as we're doing our final prep here. I know one of the pieces of advice that you guys give, and I think this is extremely wise and prudent, is don't make huge changes. We want to maximize prime day. We want to get in there and tinker with things and optimize things and improve things. But you could go too far and you can make too many changes and you can actually set yourself up for failure if you do that. So Rachael, I'm going to start with you. What does that look like on the overall channel management side of things or we would call Amazon brand management b m, what does that look like? Don't make huge changes leaning up to private day.

Rachael:

So I kind of split this up between price and then your storefront and your listings. So price wise, some people like increasing the price. It may sound like a good idea, right? Because you up your price than you can offer steeper discounts make more money, but it's not that simple because the buy box on Amazon is driven by having the lowest price. So if you raise your price too high and you're not matching that on your website or you're selling on other channels, you could lose the buy box, which would be detrimental to your conversions into your sales during this really high traffic event. If you have virtual bundles, those can become unavailable if you're messing with the price. And really it's just pricing. You've heard this on this podcast before, but pricing is not one size fits all totally. And so it's definitely more you need to be more strategic about it and just raising it might not be what's best for you for your category or for your overall profitability.

It does in terms of increasing, in terms of decreasing, I mean that can still work if you are not competitive for your category or you've noticed that perhaps you could go down, this is definitely something you could do because Amazon loves to be the cheapest, but you really want to keep in mind your margins because if you have deals set up, which the deal deadline already passed, but you should still be monitoring those. But if you have them set up and then you decrease the price of your product, you may have to offer even a lower price and you may decrease your profitability even more by making that change that you feel like is really simple, but it's actually not.

Brett:

Yeah, I love the discussion of price and there's so much that goes into this and I think we've got to keep in mind what is Amazon trying to optimize for here? Amazon is the most customer-centric on the planet. That's their goal. That's what they're aiming for. So they want to be low price. And to your point a minute ago, if you raise your prices on Amazon and they're lower elsewhere, even if no one else is selling your products on Amazon, Amazon may remove that buy box telling customers, wait a minute, don't buy it here. We don't want you to have disappointment, we want you to trust us. Go buy it elsewhere. And so you can really shoot yourself in the foot, but decreasing price, Amazon's like, yes, we love that, we love giving people a deal, but here's what I'm a big believer in. It does not make sense to lose money on sales if there's not a real strategic play and a strategic follow up and something on the back end. We're going to be monetizing that You want to hit your margin, you want to hit your number. So yes, discount or else prime day will probably be pretty disappointing, but don't discount to the point where you're not making any money or losing money. That's just not good business in my opinion. But pricing strategy, very, very important. Jonathan, from the ad side of things, how does adjusting the price or playing with the price impact ad performance and especially leading up to prime day,

Speaker 3:

So that's obviously going to be pretty impactful to your conversion rates. And so then that's going to, if you're bringing the price down, that should improve your conversion rate, which should lead to lower overall a cost because you're getting that conversion in less number of clicks where opposite, if you're increasing your price, then that could decrease your conversion rate. So you're going to have ACOs going up or row is going down depending on which one you're looking at there. And obviously whichever direction you're going is either going to make you more competitive against your competitors or less. So then you might see different ad types, the product targeting where you're maybe showing on a competitor detail page or just showing up alongside competitors both through sponsored product ads or display ads and even sponsor brand's, product target. Now you just could see drastic swings in the performance there where if you're increasing price, those showing up against a competitor who's a lower price that's going to should drastically reduce that performance. And then opposite, if you're cutting price, you might see those pop up because your competitors are seeing those side by side.

Brett:

So it could really change the math of your campaign. So maybe raising prices are fine and then the lowering conversion rate is offset by more dollars at the higher price. So maybe that's worth it, maybe a little bit of a decrease, increases conversion rate and actually make things better. And conversion rate is super important for Amazon because that that's part of the algorithm. They look at which ad should we show and which product should we show for this and where should we rank you for this, that sell through rate, that conversion rate is super, super important. So let's pause a minute and I want to kind of just hear from you, Jonathan, on let's talk overall strategy. So where should we be thinking as we're approaching prime day? It's rapidly approaching or may be here maybe past depending on when you're listening to this, but talk to me about the overall ad strategy for prime day. What are some of the tips, some of the things we need to consider?

Speaker 3:

So first off, every brand is different. So you really have to know your brand and kind of the condition of where you are and your journey. If you're at a stage of aggressive growth or just steady growth or you're really like all your costs are increasing, you're really trying to cut waste aggressively. But in the lead up to prime day, you want to be paying attention to how your ads are already performing. Are they maxing out budgets because they're definitely going to be spending more on prime day. And if you're wanting to be aggressive or eke out, just whatever growth you can at a good clip, definitely consider putting in the budget rules so that way you can say, as long as this campaign is hitting my ROAS or ACOs goal, I'm okay with it increasing the budget. And you could control that amount. You could say increase by 25% or a hundred percent or whatever you're looking to do as long as it's at those efficiency markers.

And then in terms of bid strategies with placement modifiers, I wouldn't be making any drastic adjustments to placement modifiers if I'm in the conservative bucket or even in just the stable bucket. But if I'm looking to be aggressive growth, definitely look at increasing top of search because that's where bulk of new brand sales are going to be coming through. And if you're running deals alongside that, you know really want to be showing up fairly aggressively and the top of search placements are one of the best positions for that. And then the bid strategy, whether it's bid up and down, bid down only or fixed bids, again, aggressive is the only one I would do bid up and down, but we really kind of shy away from that because it can get a little wild really fast.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, totally love that. And I, I love that you talked about that there's no real one size fits all, kind of depends on how you are growing as a brand and what your objectives are. You don't need prime day to break all the records for you. If that's not where you're at, if you're more of a steady growth or profitable growth mindset, then just take a little bit of a bump from prime day. You don't need to go nuts here necessarily. And so one thing also, and you nailed it, right? It's a couple things. You're needing to increase budget, you're always going to need to spend more. If you want to capture that, those extra shoppers on prime day, you're also going to need to bid more because competitors are going to be bidding more and those clicks are going to be more competitive. And so you got to, you'll look at increasing both. What kind of increases are we typically looking at there? So if we take our typical daily budget, how much does that increase during prime day? Look at our typical bids, how much are those increasing during prime day? What does that look like, Jonathan?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, on average the budget, granted, I'm going to put this in two buckets, whether you're running deals or you're not running deals, if you're not running deals, we typically see the budget increased by one to two x. If you are running deals that could go anywhere from two to six x is the highest that I've seen. But it kind of depends on where you were already pacing beforehand and how insane your deals are. If you're running in a crazy deal, you can just explode in traffic. And we've seen that in the past where it's like just, yeah. So that's a huge manipulator there in terms of the budget and then CPCs on an account on an account wide basis, CPCs don't increase too drastically. I think the average is 10 to 25%, but closer to that 10 and then at an individual target level,

Brett:

Conversion rate's also increased too though, so it's worth paying a little bit more for the click because your conversion rate's going to be higher.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And then I was just going to say that kind of at an individual target level that there's always that one term that's like, that's the biggest term for your product. And that term, if you're in a super competitive category like protein powder or wireless keyboard or something like that, that term could go up significantly more. That just kind of depends on the deals that other people are running and that just how aggressive they're doing their adjustments.

Brett:

Awesome. Okay, cool. So we talked about don't get too crazy on price increases maybe okay to get price decreases. Talked about how that impacted ads and some overall ad strategy. Let's talk back to the principle of don't change too much, but I know Rachael, you had that broken down by storefront and listing as well. So what should we not be changing or how should we be thinking about our storefront, our listings leading up to prime day?

Rachael:

So right now it's about a month from prime day, but people probably listen this like what, two weeks before? So you still have time to do some things, but you don't want to sync all of your time into redoing all of your listings, redoing your entire storefront or all of your a plus content because it takes a lot of your time to strategically build that out. And B, it takes a lot of time to approve it. Last year we were seeing a plus content take up to seven days to get approved. So that's just an example of how long that stuff can be waiting on Amazon's end. So you can sneak a little keyword changes in there into your listings. Can you pull the search term report from Amazon? Can you do something quick through a plugin like Helium 10 to get some keywords into your listing, scatter them throughout. That's not a full overall overhaul, but it's something small you can do that can help. Can you add something small to your A plus content, maybe a comparison chart. It may still take a while to add in there, but on the chances it does get approved, that's a great little extra and it's also not going to be business critical if it doesn't go through.

Brett:

Yeah, good risk reward there if it goes through probably a nice little bump if it doesn't go through.

Rachael:

Yeah, you can also try and create a brand story that's a, it's a newer a plus content widget that's being offered but takes up a lot of real estate on your page. So talk us a

Brett:

Little bit about brand story if you would, Rachael, what does it look like and why should we do this? For those that don't dunno.

Rachael:

Yeah, love. So it, it'll go right above your a plus content and where a plus content is ASIN specific brand story is just brand specific. So it'll show on all of your asin. So it's just one module and it's just a really easy to set up slider that basically has, you can either have a text, text box, a picture, or a little grid of products. And so you can basically just really intro your brand, maybe showcase some lifestyle images or some of your, whatever best images you have, give a little bit about your brand and then highlight some of your best selling products. So showing up on the product detail page very prominently. And then also just really easy to set up. I mean you could do a quick version of this in about an hour. And once again, kind of a good risk reward. If it doesn't get approved, then it's not the end of the world and you can even leverage that in the future to perhaps get access to premium a plus content as that's a requirement.

Brett:

Love it, love it. Well it's also cool and I, I'll talk about this just really quickly, and Jonathan, you and I were talking about this too, the risk of buying some noname brand. And I was at a conference, I got to speak of the event in Austin, Texas recently, and they were just talking about all the random, weird, almost inappropriate names of brands that come up across Amazon. And I remember buying a projector from this kind of weird acronym brand from overseas. And I bought it because I had good reviews and then I got it and it was a piece of junk and I was really disappointed, really angry, set it back, which is all fine. Amazon took care of me, but it really got me thinking, I want to pay attention to the brand, I want to buy from good brands. And I do think that's a trend on Amazon.

People want to buy from good brands and if you want to go to the next level growing your Amazon business, you got to get a transition from just being a seller of stuff to being a brand builder and one, getting people to search for you by brand later and brand story that gives you a chance to do that, gives you a chance to tell your story and show why your brand is awesome, build some trust, share the story behind your product and behind your brand. And so yeah, I'm a big fan of brand story doesn't always explode the business or anything, but it's worth doing. And yeah, good risk reward there for sure. Cool. And then what about storefront and videos on listings and things like that?

Rachael:

So adding videos to your listings is very easy. You can add several and that'll show within on that product detail page along with images, but it can also show on some competitors' listings as well in the videos related to this product. So very

Brett:

Quick and easy not ok, so talk about that for a minute. So I create a video video demonstration of my product and it's on my ASIN or my product detail page, but that could show up, then Amazon could show that on a competitor's product detail page in the related product section, is that what you said?

Rachael:

Yeah, so it'll be closer down the page, close to the reviews, but basically if the competitor has their own videos, some of those will show there, but then you can also, there will be a sliding carousel of other videos and if you have one, one that's not an

Brett:

App replacement, that's just Amazon putting your video there.

Rachael:

Correct.

Brett:

Interesting. And just a reminder, Amazon doesn't care about your brand, they care about the customer and they care about customer being happy and they care about Amazon as a brand. And so love that. If my video is showing up on my competitors asin, not so much the reverse, but that's kind of cool. And then yeah, what about storefront? How important is storefront during prime day and what are we thinking about there?

Rachael:

Yeah, so similar to listings a plus content, if you spend a lot of time building something out, it might not get approved, but one really quick and easy thing you can do is add a dynamic deals page to your storefront. This is you just add the page, you set it to all the ASINs in your catalog, and then basically if that ASIN is on sale, it'll show on the page. If it's not, it won't. And so it's just kind of set it and forget it and then you can use that link later for whatever you want to just maybe highlight some deals you have. Sure. On

Brett:

Amazon, sure that deals link on email or on social media or wherever to try to get people to that deals page. Yeah, really, really great. Jonathan, how do you think about this? Are there, from the ad side, are you very often making recommendations for hey b m team or Hey client, could you make this change to the storefront? Could you make this change to a listing or are you saying don't touch anything for the most part? What's your perspective from the ad side?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, there's not a huge, if the team has already gone through the account and it's fairly well set up, the only time I'm dropping recommendations is if I'm noticing something from a software tool that I'm using that's kind of self auditing, a detail page. If I'm looking into a product that's maybe slowed in sales or we're trying to can increase or there's some other issue and I see Helium 10 telling me that here it's got an eight out of 10 score, I'm like, what are these two points? And then kind of toss that over to the team like hey, these two things could really improve the listing. And then also if something's just struggling with conversion rate, maybe sales are fine, but conversion rates dipped or something like that. Looking at what's playing into that because PPC obviously plays its own role, but the detail page and the backend, Merck murkiness of a B M stuff is a really huge driver of conversion rate and filling into Amazon's algorithm. So wanting that to all be buttoned up is huge in terms of P B C, performance and overall performance.

Brett:

Love it. So one of the things we talked about as we're kind of prepping and putting the notes together is you got to watch your stuff, you got to be diligent, you got to be paying attention during Prime day. One of the things we like to talk about is you're approaching holiday season and Prime Day is that type of shopping frenzy where every hour of prime day is several days or a day of normal business or whatever. For some people those two days are a week or a month of normal sales. So you've got to be paying attention, you got to be diligent to what's going on. So what does that look like, Rachael? What should we be watching? What should we be paying attention to make sure things don't break?

Rachael:

Yeah, so first on the listings, one of the things we notice all the time leading up to Prime Day is that variations tend to break apart. This is really heavy in the month or two. Is that,

Brett:

Is Amazon messing with us? Is that just like someone is bored and they're like, I want to make cellars sweat and I want people to have some sleepless nights, so here we go.

Rachael:

Yeah, it feels like that. I feel validated. Hearing that no mean sometimes they'll give you a reason, but a lot of times it doesn't make sense and a lot of times you can work around it, you have to be watching and you have to be on it as soon as you notice the problem. So variations breaking apart. I mean when you think about why we vary the in improved bestseller ranking, your increased overall reviews and just the overall better customer experience, you don't want to be missing any of that during prime day, especially after prime day. Cause you want to be able to benefit from whatever ranking boost or whatever you get from your sales on Prime day. So just watch it, track it. If it's broken, submit that flat file and get it fixed. Contact Amazon support, use that, call me now function. And just be really diligent to try and get that fixed. And then make sure when you get them set back up, if they break apart that your reviews are mapping correctly, every single product is showing the same number of reviews that you have a sub node and you have your category listed in there. Because like I said, you don't want to miss out on any of those bumps that you could be getting from the high traffic event. So just

Brett:

Watching those. Cool. Talk about that just really briefly. So Noe and category, sometimes those get shifted or sometimes those may change without you wanting them to leading up to Prime Day.

Rachael:

Yeah, they can change. And if they change leading up to Prime day, I mean trying to move your product to a different category, it can take a lot of time, a lot of case logging. So if your product gets moved and it's not ranking as well, you might need to evaluate, okay, do I need to do a case logging push for this post prime day? But sometimes the category can get dropped entirely, your product won't be showing in anything. So that's more where you should be in at least something. So with that extra urgency, you might be able to get your product slotted into somewhere and then post prime day be able to follow up on getting it in the best possible place, but you want to be somewhere.

Brett:

Yeah, totally makes sense. Any favorite war stories or examples of things that broken or went down right before Prime day? We got it fixed, we got it working. Anything there that would be either inspirational or just helpful validating for someone who's gone through war stories of their own?

Rachael:

Yeah, it just, you're not alone. It happens all the time. Last year we had a client who they had both a, they were in two categories because they were part of launchpads, they were able to be in both one of those unique categories. But anyway, they both got dropped and it was ridiculously stressful. We're calling, we're following up, we're getting the same answers, but basically persistence paid off. And it's not fun to be the one that has to call in all the time. You don't want to be a bother, you don't want to be rude, but you need to advocate for yourself and advocate for your client. And it did pay off. We got into both categories and they were number one in the category for a long time. Dang. So

Brett:

Went from being, it was good booted to number one in those categories. And I'm guessing that had a pretty nice impact for prime day sales.

Rachael:

Yes, 100%. And it's just good to share the good news with the client too and be able to celebrate that

Brett:

Together. Absolutely. That's where clients are like, thank you, we love you. Now it seems like you almost have to channel your inner five or six year old where you're like bugging mom for something where I was like, mom, mom, can I have this now? Mom, what about now mom, mom. That's kind of what you have to be like with Amazon support sometimes, right? To actually get them to do something.

Rachael:

Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. So it's just got to keep pressing, keep

Brett:

Poking, persistence, just dial up, be comfortable being annoying and you just got to do it until it works. Jonathan, what do we need to be watching? What stuff do we need to be paying attention to from the ad side? Because again, every hour critical, every day is monumental. So what are we watching for on the ad side that we might need to tweak as we go?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, for sure. Definitely pulse checking throughout the day. If you're running deals, you want to be in there really starting from eight or nine, 9:00 AM Eastern, you want to be in your account at least once every hour. And in those initial hours you can kind of gauge the velocity of that. But the main things we're checking on are the campaigns running out of budgets If we're in that aggressive or growth mindset, if we do see budgets pacing out, then we're going to throw in those budget rules if I haven't done that already, to make sure that they can scale if we have the room and the budget to be able to be scaling. And then also kind of a pulse check on the sales trajectory. Is that looking kind of how we think it should be going roughly? And if it's drastically lower, kind of digging in quickly to see what's going on there. Maybe there's something wrong with the listing and you can obviously go into the inventory manager and kind of quickly run through that. So if something's not eligible for advertising or anything like that. And then also pulse, checking the ad data, which day of hour of that data is going to change a lot.

Brett:

But it's incomplete, isn't it? Yeah,

Speaker 3:

Yeah. It's very incomplete. But if you see that your A cause is like FI 200, 500%, that should be a red flag. If you are wanting to be that aggressive, which I can't imagine someone would want to be at 500%, but if you're wanting to, okay, but most people are not. So that design, okay, there's something that's really exploding here in terms of traffic and not getting the conversions that we really want, at least through the PPC side. So looking to make a cut there to mitigate the hemorrhaging basically is the main thing that I'm pulse checking is are all the products good? And are we kind of pacing in line with metrics and goals and looking at that again, almost every hour between nine Eastern, eight, 9:00 AM and 8:00 PM is kind of like, that's the bulk of the action.

Brett:

That's the bulk of the volume, isn't it? I'm just trying to picture what does your personal setup look like during the prime day event? Do you have Red Bull or Monster Energy on one side and a cup of coffee on the other? And Jonathan, you probably got some protein there cause I know you're working out and pounding the protein are, what are we taking eyedrops to keep our eyes from drying out, staring at the screen all day? How do you guys set up and how do you guys keep the energy during prime day?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, a big part is really the lead up. If you've got everything really buttoned up in terms of all my budget rules are already in place, so I'm not worried in terms if it's hitting the conversion level that I want, it's going to be increasing that budget. And generally I'll set that to a very healthy level of double or triple the daily budget at, and that's at the campaign level. And then that should be running smoothly. It's not going to be increasing if it's a terrible ACOs. And then yeah, I, I'll, I'll actually have a window tab open of all my accounts so I can quickly pull through any of them. And then early on it is a little stressful going into the prime day, but within that first surge hour between eight and, well, I guess it's more than an hour, I'm going to say eight and 11:00 AM within that initial surge, you can kind of get a feel for which account might be a trouble account or which ones are going to be pretty smooth. And the ones that are smooth, I still look at them every hour just to make sure they're still smooth, but they're not causing me much stress throughout the day. If all the deals are going good and nothing dramatic happens, just again, having all those tabs open and just watching.

Brett:

So really preparation is key. Obviously getting things set up so that we're there to capitalize. Because I think one way to think about this is it, it's not so much that we need to be fearful of something breaking or something not going well or an ad campaign needed to be adjusted because that stuff happens, right? It's just going to happen. But the real danger is finding out too late and not being able to adjust it in the moment and still capitalize on prime day sales. So Jonathan, are you telling me you're not upping your caffeine intake at all during prime day? You're just cool as a cucumber, you, you're primed, no pun intended, but you're ready, or are you increasing your caffeine consumption?

Speaker 3:

Not normally a caffeine person. I have one cup of green tea per day, so maybe I'll have that a little bit earlier in the day than I usually do. But no, I'm pretty much good to go. I have that protein in the morning and that sustains me through the dark hours.

Brett:

Good. Pure energy. I have found, and I think this is true, people that consume less caffeine or no caffeine, probably a better baseline energy than those of us that crush the campaign or crush the caffeine. Anything you do, Rachael, are you are pounding water, are you drink, are you loading up on vitamins? What's your personal, how do you get ready for prime day?

Rachael:

Wow. Well, I can't say I drink a lot of caffeine now because I want to be one of those healthy people with great energy.

Brett:

I drink a lot of caffeine, so no judgment at all. Yeah,

Rachael:

Perfect. I do drink a lot of water and I'm very proud of that. So water, definitely coffee a hundred percent. But I guess I'll just go more the social route in that team, O M G, the Amazon team here. We will be on Slack, we'll be messaging and even something as simple guys today is crazy. Just a simple check-in like that. It helps to know it's two days, we're all in it together. We have some support if we need it from our coworkers. Really that comradery throughout the day just to know, hey, we're all experiencing this, we're all trying to do our best.

Brett:

Yeah, it it's super fun. It's like the Super Bowl or secondary Super Bowl, if you count holiday is the primary or whatever. But I try, it's hard for me because I want to know all the details and my instinct is to bug you guys and like, Hey, how's this going? Hey, what's this account doing? Hey Jonathan, how's this going? But I don't want to do that because I want you to do your thing and I want you to be able to make the most of it and I'll get details later, but it's an exciting time. It's a super fun time for sure. So awesome. All right, let's keep on rocking here. So we're watching our stuff, which is important, and then let's talk about deals, coupons, promos. We'll look at it from the ad side and from the overall channel side, but what are some things we need to think about Rachael when it comes to deals and promos and things like that?

Rachael:

Yeah, this is quite possibly, this is my number one tip, or this is what I would say is the most important, is to watch out for deal stacking, because I've seen this happen every year. It's just a really small thing that could basically ruin your profitability. So Amazon will let you set up whatever deal you want, they want you to be the cheapest. You can have coupons, you can have promos, you can have prime exclusive discounts, lightning deals, whatever. They'll let you set those up and they'll let you set them up at the same time. So when it comes to Prime Day will have customers who maybe have a coupon still running, they didn't know about, they've got some sort of promo, some sort of promo code that they had going for an influencer campaign that maybe they're not paying attention to. And then suddenly customers can buy a product at what they thought was going to be like 25% off for Prime day.

They're really getting it like 50% off because some of these things are stacking. So my hot tip is to go in and check everything. The coupons are separate from the promo. So go into your coupon dashboard, go into your promo dashboard, see everything that's live, pull reports to see what you're doing and make sure you're very aware of how much stuff you're running. Because that we've seen it. And even the most seasoned sellers, suddenly they were letting products go for like 60% off, which really is not what they anticipated. And with that much more traffic and that many more people buying it, it can become a problem if you're not paying attention. So

Brett:

Yeah, it can actually be bad, can be detrimental for your brand to sell it for two cheap and that kind of erodes brand value. And then at a 60% discount, plus you add in ad costs and FBA fees and all that, you're not making money. You're likely losing a lot of money. And so that is not the way to maximize prime day for sure. Jonathan, how do you think about deals, coupons, promos, deals, things like that? How are you wanting to coordinate with the team ahead of time to make sure ad strategy lines up with deals? What does that look like?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think the main thing, and I sort of touched a little bit on this earlier was if we're running deals and depending on how aggressive they are, but really any deal is a good deal for prime day and getting increased traffic and just becoming more competitive. And with that competitive edge, really pushing on the product targeting so that we're showing against competitors because you know, have such a, normally a tight niche or a tight group for the top of sponsored product placement, really kind of like the top four to 10 sponsored positions are really what you're jostling for. But there's a huge sea of products that people are landing on, whether that's directly for that vertical or maybe it's in the same ca category and that the categories can get really broad. So being more aggressive with that product targeting and having that kind of positioned, well, obviously you don't want to be 500% ACOs bad, but being aggressive with that in line with the deals and the similar level of aggression. If our deals really good, I want to be showing up against the whole category. Anybody who's adjacent to this product line, I really want to be out there and kind of showcasing our deal to as many people as possible because we think this is going to be a big hot prime day item.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that, love that so much. And so we got to coordinate, think about the deal strategy, deal structure, make sure we're not giving away margin, make sure we're maximizing things on the ad side, and then keeping track as we go. So a couple things we need to be watching out for some kind of sneaky things, some fees that could be creeping in some other stuff that could make us an unhappy camper at the end of prime day. What else we need to be watching for Rachael?

Rachael:

So fees is great because is, it's an increased fee for prime day. So typically a lightning deal, you can run that for about $150. Prime day will be 300 to 500, 500 if your deal is selected for those two prime days. Which is also another thing to keep in mind is that if you have already selected a lightning deal for the prime day window, that prime day window could be the Sunday after prime day. So it might not actually be the Tuesday and Wednesday or whatever day it ends up being this year. So you want to keep that in mind, is that worth you keeping and you running, you also want to keep your stock in mind because there's that fee, or do you even have enough products to support that? Are they going to run out and you're basically going to pay that fee and not be able to make that back in your sales. And then you also, this is not exactly related to lightning deals, but you also just want to make sure that for whatever promo you're running, you have your reference prices listed in your listing. This is a little sneaky thing that a lot of people, you don't have to do it when you set up your listing, but if you don't, some of these deals could be suppressed day of during the event and then you have to wait whatever for prime exclusive discounts, like the six hours for it to get updated. And

Brett:

So talk through reference pricing. Is that just where someone could see this was the normal price, what the price was, is what the price is now? Is that what that is? Yeah,

Rachael:

Yeah. So it's, if you've seen the listings that has basically the strike through price, what is 1899 now is like 1299. It's because that's, they're playing with the reference price is there. So you can put the exact same price in there for 1899 for both listing and reference price, and it'll just show that on your page. But if you don't have that for Amazon to reference for your discounts, they could get suppressed and you don't want that. And

Brett:

Everybody wants a deal. We buy for emotional reasons because we want a product or what it could do for us or how it would make us feel, but we back it up with logic and we're looking for deals, especially on prime day. So seeing that strike through price of, hey, I'm saving 10%, 20%, 30%, that can be enough to help push someone over the edge and make them buy. And I love what you were just kind of to go back to this because this goes back to the deal thing, Jonathan, you talked about product targeting. People are kind of ruthless when they're shopping around holiday or prime day. This is, I'm going to this picture in my head of, you know, go to the local market and you're haggling with merchants. You're trying to talk this guy down and that guy down. And you're like, that's sort of what we've become during these deals where it's like, I'm maybe not brand loyal, maybe I am, but maybe I'm not.

I'm looking at this product. But then if you're targeting that product with your add and you're a little cheaper and maybe the reviews are good, maybe it looks about the same, I'm going to go with that. So there are lots of opportunities here to kind of capitalize on that and hopefully steal some customers away, which is kind of the name of the game for right now. So let's do this. Let's talk about post prime day. Cause you guys have both kind of alluded to that where yes, the benefit is in these two days being monster sales days, but how do we leverage that? How do we ride that wave and continue to ride it even after prime day is over? So let's talk a little bit about that and then we got a few little extra bonus things that we'll kind of share in addition to that. But what is your post Prime day game going to look like? And we'll start with you, Jonathan, on the ad side.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. So yeah, first, right out the gate you, the day after, which is normally a Thursday, but whatever day that is, I want to make sure that I am adjusting all the kind of aggressive parameters that I put in place for prime day. If I changed my top of search modifiers from in normal of like 15% and I'm bumped it up to 50, I'm probably going to be dialing that back. I might not go all the way back to where I had it because we're still expecting to see higher volume post prime day, at least in that, the finish out the week, maybe even the week beyond. But I'm going to definitely draw that down because I don't want to be as aggressive the day after as I was on the day. And also, if my deals are all done, definitely don't want to be that aggressive. The budget rules should be

Brett:

Fine. Say you want to all your, you want to take all your profits, all that extra you just made from prime day, just give it back to Amazon with ad fees. So you want want to not do that,

Speaker 3:

Right? Yeah, yeah. The budget rules should be fine. If you set in that parameter of like, it's got to be hitting this ACOs or this roas and you're still okay with that, that should still be fine to be there. But if you want to get rid of it, make sure you turn that off. Another big thing is thinking about remarketing efforts because you probably saw a pretty huge surge in traffic and

Brett:

A lot of new customers probably,

Speaker 3:

Right? A lot of new customers, most likely you have a few other items that are kind of next ancillary to the item that they bought. So you want to be, you know, want to remarket to those people and show them the other items in your product portfolio or if it's a consumable set up that remarketing for however many days out it takes to consume that product. Whether it's 30 days because 30 servings, but definitely be setting up those ads if they're not already in place. And yeah, and definitely with that, any products that individually, maybe you have one product out of your portfolios a hundred, that one really exploded, then that one's the one that you should really focus the remarketing on. The other ones that didn't get the huge burst in volume aren't going to have the same audience to be referencing from. So make sure you're not just blanket launching that remarketing effort. Cause you're probably going to see bad performance on something that didn't get any boost.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. And that's just one of those ways where you can say, Hey, all right, we got new shoppers, we got new customers, we got new activity. How do we get them to buy more? How do we get them to buy more often? So looking at, yeah, if you've got an extensive catalog and someone bought, let's use the skincare example. Someone bought the skin cream but not the mascara. Well let's run a sponsored display ad or an Amazon D S P ad. If you got an agency, have you got access to that of let's sell the skin cream purchasers, let's let them know about our mascara. You love the skin cream, you should try the mascara. Or they'll probably be running out of the skin cream in 30 days, 60 days. Let's get that set up where we can just remarket to them and get them to repurchase and reorder when that 30 or 60 days is up. And so, yeah, just thinking about how do we leverage what's going on there and then how do we not give all our money back to Amazon through ads, which is also wise too. So love that. Jonathan. Rachael, what about on the overall, the E B M side? How are we maximizing post prime day?

Rachael:

Yeah, this kind of goes hand in hand with what you guys were just talking about with that remarketing. That retargeting is that we found that a very small, the minimum you can vul you can go is 5% off, but a very small 5% off, $1 off coupon in around you can go up to two weeks post prime day. We found that really helps. It captures some of that residual traffic, the people who missed out on the event wish they bought, but also just really helps that D S P retargeting, it performs at a higher rate. You'll have that coupon badge and it just really compliments all of that super nicely.

Brett:

So maybe someone missed the prime deal now they're sad, they got regret the opposite of buyer's remorse. I didn't buy a remorse. So now you've got that coupon to try to get 'em back and to extend to that. And it is interesting that kind of once you start purchasing, that can extend. And so what you guys are saying is we really see a nice lift through the end of prime week, so to speak. And then sometimes even into that following week.

Rachael:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We've seen it on, done it on several accounts and like I said, it really compliments the other efforts you're doing.

Brett:

Cool. And what about on the customer service side? Cause I know there could be some new customer service issues or things that we got to consider. What should we be thinking about there, Rachael?

Rachael:

Yeah, so I would just say have your customer service team prepped. I mean, it's not uncommon to have an influx of messages during prime week, the prime days, and then after too with customers. Perhaps they bought too much and now they're trying to return. So just make sure you're checking your account. You're watching to be replying within the 24 hours that Amazon requires. You don't want to have any type of alert on your account because you haven't been replying to customer messages. So watch that. And then also in the weeks after prime day, even month or two after, watch your account health page, watch the product health, you'll have those, Amazon calls them the n CX scores. Basically it's just a trend to track how often are customers returning your product and are there known complaints about it. I've noticed in years past with some of my clients, some of them that sell food goods, they'll see a spike in complaints of quality wasn't a adequate, even some more extreme, I bought this and it was expired. Not totally uncommon to see this because people are looking for any way that they can return a product and they think that's kind of the workaround that they can do it. So if you're monitoring that and you're being proactive and replying, you shouldn't see any negative ramifications on your counts. Any alerts that are then trickier to remove if you're being proactive and just watching all of these things.

Brett:

Yeah, love it, love it. So let's talk about going the extra mile. I know there's some little extras we can kind of throw in here, some other things we need to consider. What would you say, Rachael? What are some of the extra mile things we should do?

Rachael:

So I'm big advocate for Amazon posts. They are so low effort. It's really easy to use some of your preexisting social media content. You can utilize those images and those captions make 'em best fit Amazon. But these posts, you can have a brand profile that customers can follow. And we have clients that have over 3000, 4,000 followers, people who are engaging with this brand on Amazon's crazy. So it shows on your storefront, it can show on your product detail page and just the videos we were talking about earlier. It can show on other competitors' product detail pages too. And it's just really clean, nice to showcase some of those lifestyle images and the brand story really elevate your brand, show that you are reputable, you are someone people can trust in buying and trust in your quality. So those are great. They also give you access to customer engagement emails within Amazon where you can send emails to different buckets of customers. And so by utilizing posts, you have access to some of those recent customers, repeat customers, high spend customers, some really cool buckets there.

Brett:

And so the engagement emails, are those only available if you're doing Amazon posts or are they available if you're not? Okay,

Rachael:

So you can send customer engagement emails to all of your brand followers, but if you send a certain number of campaigns, 10 campaigns to across those 10 campaigns, if it's sent to a certain number of unique customers, then you can access some of those other buckets, which are the high spend, your most recent customers, repeat customers. So you can customize them. I mean it's in Amazon, so it's you don't have much customization you can do in the actual campaign itself, but you can be more

Brett:

Strategic about you're still, your customers mean. This is another mean email marketing. It's a service we offer at omg emailing through Klaviyo or whatever. And it's tried and true. It's proven it's going to work day in and day out. And now you can do that on Amazon if you structure this properly and if you're engaged in posts and you got followers and things like that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Makes sense. Cool. So

Rachael:

If you have access, send those emails, start scheduling them now whenever you watch this to maybe get one hitting during prime day to have those eyes on your listings.

Brett:

Love it. Love it. What about Amazon Live? Are either of you recommending Amazon Live? Should we be considering it for Prime day or after prime day? How should we think about Amazon Live?

Rachael:

I think people should give it a go. I mean it's kind of scary to get on camera for sure. As a brand owner though again,

Brett:

Oh, look at you guys first time podcasters and you're just crushing it here. And so it'll be the same for a brand. Just get on camera, get somebody to be on camera it it's probably worth it.

Rachael:

Yeah, you're interacting with your customers in real time, which that's is, that's pretty unique on Amazon. So it's a great way to build your brand presence also. I mean during prime day, if you can do that or right before great, great click through rates during prime day, great conversion there. So if you can do it, do post prime day. Again, kind of ride that wave. But if you don't want to be on the camera, you can work with influencers. Amazon has an influencer program. You can go into that hub and find people to find people to represent your brand to work with and really build out those connections there because you can also utilize them on different platforms. Make use of unique promo codes. There's a lot you can do and not enough people are doing it. So it could be a really cool way to diversify your brand.

Brett:

Super interesting. And do either of you have a perspective? Do we have very many clients that are utilizing Amazon influencers and Amazon lives there? I know it's so relatively new and not every brand is given to work with influencers, but any anecdotal experience there?

Rachael:

I have had clients experiences who have used it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I also have one client who used it, but considering that was I think about eight months ago and he never told me anything about the results, I don't think he can stuck with it.

Brett:

Guessing. Guessing it was not too impressive. He never spoke about it again. Didn't do it again. It was probably underwhelming. God. What about you Rachael, though? A few clients utilizing it?

Rachael:

Yeah, so I had one client, they sell jewelry and we used that, an influencer around Valentine's Day to really, it was slower moving products. We used an influencer to kind of boost sales and we did see a nice little bump around Valentine's Day hoping to maybe we can brand this in a way or market this in a way to create that seasonality for that. We'll see. But overall, I'd say for how much work and effort it was to set it up, I think it was worth it. And it's being underutilized by brand owners too, I think is if you're a brand owner, you have a cool story, cool personality, people want to see that. So put yourself out there and do it.

Brett:

Yeah, I love it. I think it's definitely worth testing. What are the costs associated with that? Are you giving a percentage to an influencer, you paying them a flat fee, you have to pay Amazon to do the live or influencer? What does the cost of that look like?

Rachael:

A lot of it depends. We influencers will set their own rates and so you can communicate with influencers that you find within the hub. I believe there, as the brand owner, I don't believe there's this, there's a cost that you have to do and you can have attribution links, which are nice, but definitely something that you'd want to do your research on and check just to see. They have a nice little page about it. But most of the costs are going to be communicated from the influencer, I believe.

Brett:

Awesome, awesome. One little thing that I'll mention, one little bonus, extra mile type thing you can do. We're seeing good results with running Google traffic to Amazon listings or Amazon's storefront. It's not always a game changer. And for some brands it's just like a nice little bump. Other brands, we've got brands that are spending six figures a month on running Google ads to Amazon. But one thing to remember is that even if someone wants to buy on Amazon, and even if they want to buy a drink prime day, they may start on Google. So they may start their search on, I want backpack, deal, backpack, backpack, prime day deals. But they're starting on Google because for a lot of people the internet begins on Google. And so what happens if Amazon's running an ad for that keyword or that search term, that click is going to send someone to a page with all your competitors on it.

But if you're able to win that bid and you're able to run a Google ad to your own Amazon listing or to your storefront, now you bypass the competition and now people are shopping with you. So not a great fit for everybody, but it is something to consider and that could be a nice little nice little bonus. So awesome. As we wrap up and we went a little bit over, this was so good, I didn't want to stop it. So if you're still listening, kudos to you and now you're going to be ready, more ready than ever for prime day, which is awesome. But final words of wisdom, final words of wisdom, final insights, final thoughts on prime day 2023

Rachael:

In the spirit of Zen, because we were kind of all talking about being chill, I think of there's that proverb that's like the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. Second best time is now. So no matter when you're listening to this pre-crime day, or maybe you're just prepping for next year, you can still do some stuff. But if you're listening to this the day before prime day, there's got to be one or two things you can do to feel a little more prepped. It's not too late. You got this, you can do something, don't stress.

Brett:

Love that. Be yeah, prepare ahead of time. Ideally, you started your prep months ago and you got all your deals in and everything is set, but maybe you forgot. I remember I was at event, I think it was a year ago speaking at this event in West Palm Beach, Florida, and the event happened over prime day, which was not good planning. I don't run the day-to-day of ads so I can be there. But I was talking to a guy like a seller, I was like, Hey, how are your prime day sales going? He's like, oh, when is it? I'm like, oh, it's like right now. That was a real rude awakening I think for that guy. But I know people listening to this are not like that. You've been preparing, but even if you've missed some things, totally agree with you Rachael. Capitalize on what you can get that prime day follow up stuff, really going ride that wave for next couple weeks and be ready then for holiday. Cause a lot of these same principles apply for holiday shopping. So get ready for that as well. Jonathan, what about you? Closing thoughts, closing remarks, closing insights. Let's say you,

Speaker 3:

Yeah, for sure we're past pretty much all the deadlines in terms of deals and that kind of stuff that you can be doing. But there's, until the day of, and even during the day of, there's time to be really fine tuning your ads to make sure that they're hitting the goals that you want and you're being aggressive enough to match again where you are in your brand journey. So yeah, I definitely highly recommend the budget rules and kind of auditing your placement adjustment positioning. But just stay fresh, stay cool. You got this.

Brett:

Stay fresh, stay cool. You got this, man, I feel it guys. I feel it right now. I feel fresh and cool and chill right now, but also excited and also ready to make a lot of money over prime day. So hey, you may be listening to this and thinking, dang, I want some people like that running my Amazon account. I want people like that maximizing my holiday sales and my post prime day sales. We are good luck because we do take clients, not a ton of, we don't have a ton of availability and we do sometimes sell out from month to month. But I would love to chat with you. So if you want to talk to the OMG experts, reach out to us@omgcommerce.com, fill out that, let's talk form for, to request a strategy session. And so would love to do that. Guys, it's been a blast. I've got to say 10 out of 10 for both of you for your first podcast. Holy cow, you crushed it. But I do got to know, so I know you're, you're all business. I know you're all thinking about how to maximize client sales, but is there anything you've got your eye on, Hey, if this goes on sale on Prime day, I might just buy it. Anything you're shopping for?

Rachael:

That's a good question because I feel like now that I've been working on Amazon, I've like totally changed my perspective of it. So I'm like, I need to check helium 10, see if they've, they're doing anything shady with their prices and I'm not going to buy from them if they did. So I have a different mentality now. I'm not

Brett:

Falling for your games marketer. I play this game, right? So I'm not going to fall for that yet. Exactly.

Speaker 3:

Just protein powder,

Brett:

Protein powders. I'm all about the protein. I'm all about the bulk, yo. So he is going for it. Yeah, I may be in the market for a new year where all this talk about caffeine. I don't like my current coffee maker, so I may need to upgrade. So I may be looking for a deal for that. So anyway, guys, thank you so much. This was fantastic. You'll definitely be invited again and can't wait to watch how you guys perform on prime day. Thanks, Brad. Awesome. Absolutely. And as always, thank you for tuning in and let us know what you think about the show. We'd love your feedback. So if you found this podcast helpful, please share it. Share with other sellers, other e-comm people, other marketing nerds like us. I think they will. Thank you for it and if you haven't done it, leave us. That review on iTunes makes our day and helps other people discover the show as well. So with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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‍

This episode of eCommerce Evolution is one-of-a-kind!

Recently, I had the pleasure of joining Matt Edmundson on his show, the eCommerce Podcast, and let me tell you, it was an absolute blast! We had such a great time that I couldn't resist featuring it on eCommerce Evolution as well.

Matt Edmundson is an eCommerce expert and CEO at Auron Media. With over 20 years of experience, he has left a mark on the industry as both a successful business owner and a respected teacher.

His podcast serves as a valuable resource for entrepreneurs looking to level up their stores!

So take advantage of this opportunity to gain insights on what is working now with Google and YouTube Ads.

Here's a sneak peek at what we cover:

• Why you should consider running YouTube ads.
• How to use YouTube as an advertising channel.
• The importance of long-form content on YouTube.
• The differences between TikTok and YouTube advertising.
• The relationship between Google and YouTube ads.
• What Performance Max is, and how it works.
• Plus more!

P.S. If you are interested in the topic of “leadership,” I invite you to listen to our discussion on Matt’s other show Push To Be More, a podcast centered around what it takes to make life work!

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• YouTube Ads Guide
• Google Performance Max Guide
• Brett Curry (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (Twitter)

‍

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the eCommerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and today's a special episode. Usually I'm the one grilling people with questions, but today I'm on the hot seat. I recently had the chance to appear on the eCommerce podcast with my buddy, the Man, the myth, the legend, Matt Edmundson, one of my favorite gents from across the pond. And we talked about what's working right now on Google and YouTube ads. So we talk about Performance Max, we talk about YouTube creatives, we talk about what makes Google the online advertising powerhouse that it is. It's the number one digital ad platform, and there's a good reason for that. And so we get into all the ins and outs, plus a little bit about what shaped my background as a marketer. So sit back and enjoy this perspective on what's working right now with Google and YouTube. Adss.

Matt:

Welcome to the eCommerce podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson. The eCommerce podcast is all about helping you deliver eCommerce. Wow. And to help us do just that, I am chatting with the talented and all random amazing person, which is Brett Curry from OMG Commerce about what's working right now with Google and YouTube ads. But before Brett and I jump into this conversation, let me suggest a few other podcast episodes that I think you'll also enjoy listening to. Check out why you should stop using Facebook ads and start using Google advertising with John Horn. Great episode, that one, and how to grow your eCommerce brand using YouTube videos with OGI Johnston. You can find our entire archive of episodes as well as those two on our website for free, eCommerce podcast.net. And also, whilst you're there on our website, if you've not already done so, sign up for our newsletter and each week we will email to you these links along with the notes and the links and the transcript from today's conversation with Brett directly to your inbox, totally free.

It's totally amazing, and you get it each and every week after that. Now, this episode is brought to you by, you've guessed it, eCommerce cohort, which helps you deliver eCommerce Wow. To your customers. That's right. eCommerce Cohort is a longstanding sponsor of this show and for good reason, it helps you. It helps you if you're an eCommerce, if you are an eCommerce entrepreneur, if you're just starting out or if like me, you're a bit of a dinosaur and been around eCommerce for a fair few years, eCommerce cohort is something to check out. It is a lightweight membership group with guided monthly sprints that cycle through all the key areas of eCommerce. The sole purpose of cohort is basically to help you grow online and help you grow your online business. So do check it out. You can find out more information at eCommerce cohort.com, eCommerce cohort.com, me and the team in there every month.

Yes, we are. And it's great. We love it. So check it out. Also, just before I jump into the conversation, I want to give a bit of a shout out to our collective good friend Mr. Jared Mitchell, who connected myself and Brett today. Jared has actually been on the show. We've since become good friends. In fact, my daughter Zoe and I stayed with Jared and his beautiful family for a few days on a trip to the States earlier this year. It was great to see what they've got going up there saying, big up to Jared and Alana and everything that is happening@skincarebyalana.com. Check it out, especially if you're in the States and you need skincare. Go ahead. Anyway, let's talk about Brett. Brett is a seasoned entrepreneur, a digital marketer and podcast host. He leads an eight figure ad agency of Google, YouTube, and Amazon Marketing rock stars. I love that phrase. Now, the thing you don't know about Brett necessarily is the man is the father of eight kids and a basketball coach, and we now understand why he needs an eight figure agency. So Brett, hey kids, welcome to the podcast, but it's great to have you here. Great to be finally doing this. Thanks for joining me.

Brett:

Yeah, Matt, I'm, I'm so excited. And yeah, of course. Shout out to Jared Mitchell because he made this connection like that. That's how you and I met. We met a year ago or more and we're like, whoa. Really connection. We enjoyed it, but we just weren't able to make this happen until now. But it's happening. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for the invite and yeah, excited.

Matt:

Good, good. We were saying before we hit the record, but I actually host three different podcasts and you are on all three of them, and we're recording all That's right. That's right. Thanks. That's exactly it. And you are, we're recording all three this week. So I did say at the start, I'm really sorry because you're going to get really bored with dissent in my voice.

Brett:

Bernie's, you be tired of each other, but that's okay. Push the limit and we'll just see where it goes.

Matt:

See where it goes. We might be calling Jared up by the end of the week going, why did you

Brett:

Do that? Thank, I'll take back the Thank you.

Matt:

You never know, right? You never know. So Brett, listen, tell me you've got a podcast, right?

Brett:

I do, actually. I have two podcasts. One is a longstanding podcast called eCommerce Evolution started in 2017. Oh, once we talk about what's new, what's next in eCommerce, I have phenomenal guests on there, like Jared Mitchell, man, he's getting a lot of air time. You should probably charge him at spots. Yeah. But also as a Firestone, Mickey Agarwal from Tushy, Roland Frazier, lot, lots of big names. So talking about growth. And then I have a series based, kind of a mini-series podcast called Spicy Curry, and it's called that because my last name is Curry. Sure. And should we get spicy on that podcast? Talk about Hot Takes in eCommerce season. One's about eight episodes working on season two coming up. So couple of ways. If you getting done with this podcast and you're like, I'm sick of this guy. I totally get it, boy, you may be like,

Matt:

Then you

Brett:

Have twos, but end.

Matt:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Go ahead and go and subscribe to Brett's podcast, which will, of course, we will link in the show notes. Now, tell me OMG Commerce, what do you guys do?

Brett:

Yeah, so we're performance driven marketing agency, and we serve exclusively eCommerce brands. So we help eCommerce brands grow, give more customers scale, and we do that primarily through the Google Ads ecosystem. So Google search, shopping, YouTube, performance Max, which is noon, I think we're going to touch on a little bit today. And then Amazon. And so on the Amazon side, we're full channel management. So from optimization to inventory management to Amazon ads. And we do a lot with Amazon ads. So we're one of the fastest strong Amazon DSP agencies about four or five years ago. And then we run email. So yeah, we're a team of approaching 70 now. Good. And we'll with some great brands like Native deodorant and Boom, my city, Joseph and Overtone and a number of others. So yeah, that's what we do. We're all performance driven and help eCommerce brands scale.

Matt:

Fantastic. And how did you get into it mean? Did you just wake up one day, think I'll do paid media, or was there a good story,

Brett:

I want to help eCommerce brands? Yeah, I, one day I want to be on Matt Edmonton. How can I get, what's the clearest path? What's interesting, I have always loved advertising, which is really strange. I remember as a kid liking infomercials. So I don't know, I don't know how well this translates Matt, but do you know the GI GSU knives? The Ginsu knife infomercial?

Matt:

I know what an infomercial is. I'm not particularly, I'm not okay with that particular product. I

Brett:

Remember watching the Ginsu Kni, there was this, it was a single take cut where they use a Ginsu knife and they cut through a soda can and then it slices through a tomato and then it cuts through a rope. I just remember watching it being like, I got to have that knife. That's awesome. So then I remember thinking as a kid, who makes, but who makes the commercials? And so anyway, it's always been kind of Dr drawn to marketing and what makes people buy one brand versus another brand. But worked in radio for a little while, so did radio, tv. And then in 2004, learned SEO had had an opportunity to learn SEO and kind of understand, hey, why do people search the way they search and how do we get sites to rank on search engines? And that kind of started this path down, Hey, I kind of like Google.

I like what Google's up to. I like how they connect brands to shoppers. And so that's how it started. So we started over June in 2010 and grew from an SEO agency to primarily paid traffic because I'd done TV back in the day. Then when YouTube started to develop a performance element with True View or TrueView Ads, it was like my world's collided. They had some search components and understanding intent of a user, but then also video. The power of video vi video can make you a celebrity. Video is one of the best selling tools out there. And so it was really about 2016, they kind of went all in on YouTube ads and started growing the agency through YouTube. So it's been interesting when I first started talking from stage about YouTube in like 2016, 2017, and almost nobody was doing it. And now it's more popular, but barely. I think that's like YouTube's about to have its day. I think people are finally catching the vision. So anyway, I basically, I love good brands and I love telling good brands stories and love doing that through digital ads.

Matt:

It's interesting you say that YouTube's going to have its day and how actually not a lot of brands are using, a lot of eCommerce brands are using YouTube and I, I've done a lot of coaching and I can't remember one person going, man, we've got up our budget on YouTube ads. Everybody talked Facebook and Google. But of course Facebook is, it's got its issues now. And I think more than ever, it was even in the mainstream news. That's how we know it's going on over here in the uk. Facebook are struggling because people are going, well, what do we do instead of Facebook? And so I think we are now looking at these eCommerce entrepreneurs are now looking back at some of the things that maybe they're not doing where they were heavily reliant on Facebook. So why is it, do you think that we don't as eCommerce entrepreneurs use YouTube ads? And why do you think maybe we should?

Brett:

Yeah, so I, I'll answer the second part of that first. So the reason I think we should consider YouTube, and the reason I think YouTube is about to have its day is really a few things. One, it's got the users, so I think it's 2 billion active monthly users globally, which I know it's a huge number, kind of hard to wrap your mind around. But essentially everybody is on YouTube. We have brands that are targeting 50 plus year old women. We have brands targeting 20 year old people that want to color their hair and everything in between. And if Matt, you've got a teenager, right? Zoe? Zoe teenager, yeah. Is she actively using YouTube? And I'm just curious what her take is on Facebook. Oh

Matt:

Yeah, she's never been on Facebook. She doesn't have a Facebook account. If she does, I don't know about it, but she's on YouTube all the time. Mainly learning stuff like how to draw, how

Brett:

To, exactly. We see this in data too. But even just looking at your family, my family, so all of my teenagers, they all use YouTube. They want to learn something. My son just got a sales job and so he is learning how to close and how to do things. He's looking on YouTube. The only reason he has a Facebook account is when he sells stuff on marketplace. So long-lived Facebook, I think Facebook is going to be fine for the immediate future. We'll see long term, but I think the future's bright for YouTube. The users are there, the engagement is there, which is awesome. The other thing is the data is there. So when we want to look at behavioral data, how do we target someone based on shopping patterns, search behavior, things like that. Google has that. Google has more of that data than almost anybody else.

Amazon's maybe close, but Google can use that data because it's first party data. When you're typing a search into Google, that's you giving your data directly to Google. So we can use that for targeting on ads and stuff. So got the users, got the data, and then it's just such a powerful vehicle, powerful tar for targeting. And it's a visual medium. And we just tell a story really, really well through YouTube ads and we do it the right way. I think the reason most people have missed it is because they've tried to just take their Facebook video or their Instagram video and they put it on YouTube, but it's a different beast. And I really think hats off to Facebook. Facebook made it easy to start testing. The ad platform is a little newer, so it's easier to spin up campaigns and ad sets and you can test with a simple image and some copy where on YouTube, the video has to do all the work.

The video has to stop someone in their tracks. And so it's hook someone, it's got to keep them entertained and focus long enough to get the click. And so the creative is a little bit harder. So there's this real barrier to entry on YouTube. But then I think even more than that, there's like this perceived barrier to entry where it feels harder to test on YouTube. And so hopefully we can kind of demystify that a little bit. But I think that's the main reason. I think people just don't know how to approach YouTube. And if they did approach it, they went about it the wrong way. And so they've kind of stepped back. I think it's easier to get success on Facebook faster, but YouTube just has a ton of scale opportunity. And like I said, I think it's going to have its day.

Matt:

Yeah, I'm curious about this, Brett. I'm not going to lie. The reason why, again, most people who have eCommerce websites, I've used Facebook ads over the years and I'm seeing the falling response from Facebook ads and I'm thinking, how else do I go and get new customers? Are Google ads? They're good, they're strong. We'll touch on Google ads later. But Google Ads are great for people who are showing shopping intent. They're online, they're looking for something. Whereas Facebook was always, wow, I'm just going to try and see if I can gather. Do you know what I mean? I'm going to cast my nets and see what Phish I can gather kind of thing. And it strikes me that YouTube would be a good platform to do that type of stuff with. So the concept behind Facebook where you are interrupting people and maybe trying to find an audience you've not yet seen you. That's what you could use YouTube. Cause I'm not necessarily on YouTube. Well, maybe I am on YouTube to buy, cause I'm searching up the latest woodworking talk and how to use it. And maybe I could add that way. So is actually, therefore thinking this out loud, YouTube a brilliant platform for both of those things.

Brett:

Yeah, it really is. And so we like to talk about those two different sides of marketing demand generation where you're trying to stir up and create a little bit of demand. That's what you do with your Facebook ads where you're trying to just find a person who's likely to buy what you sell and you're interrupting them and saying, Hey, look how awesome this is. You should check it out. So you're trying to generate some demand on the Google side. If you're looking at search, whether it's search ads, text ads, or shopping, love, Google shopping, that's more demand capture. Someone's on Google, they're searching for break pads or they're searching for woodworking tools, whatever. And so you're capturing that demand. YouTube is good at both. Usually when someone encounters YouTube during a shopping process, it's early. It's one of the first things they do. So I think YouTube definitely can do what Facebook does in terms of interrupting that new likely customer, but the kind of that demand generation piece.

And so the way I always look at it is if you can run Facebook video ads to a cold audience and you've got a lander that converts them and that gets them on your email list so you can follow up with them or it's driving some direct sales. If you're doing that on Facebook, then you should be able to do the same thing on YouTube, maybe just with some tweaks, especially to the video, maybe to the lander tube, but mostly the video. But yes, it's great at demand generation. It's also good free marketing. So you can also use at the bottom of the funnel to remark to users, which is very, very powerful. And then it's kind of that in between too, where it's like there are people that go to YouTube, and I don't really use YouTube this way, but millions of people do where they go and they search for reviews or unboxings, I'm about to buy the new iPhone, see the unboxing, or I need to buy a new mattress, I'm going to look for reviews. So there are people that do product research on YouTube, so that's as I would say it. And so you can target those people and show your ad there as well. So it's pretty versatile

Matt:

And I am right then insane because it is this versatile, but you don't have this, it's going to have its day. It's not really prime. Facebook was maybe two years ago or Google Ads is right now. Is it there for quite a cost effective platform to launch onto?

Brett:

So this is where it gets tricky. I think you do have to have the right ad, and there's also some ways you structure campaigns that are getting easier. But in the early days, hey, to really be effective on YouTube, you probably needed about 15 to 30,000 a month to test. I believe that's largely changed because of some new bidding structures that YouTube has. So now I think you can test with like a five to 10 K month budget because you got to get enough frequency, you got to get enough impressions, enough views to really see if it's going to work or not. So I think that has become easier than it was say just a few years ago. But the real key is getting the video right, you get the structure of the video correct, and then you're going to be in a lot better shape. So there are people that are succeeding on YouTube now. So when I say it has its day, I think they're just more people that are kind of realizing, Hey, I can't just rely on Facebook and I think we can tweak our videos to work for YouTube. So I think it's just going to continue to build. We have several advertisers we work with that are spending three, four, 5 million a month on ads, and now YouTube is as big or bigger than their Facebook budget. So I think that's happening right now.

Matt:

So I mean, I've not got three to 4 million to spend a month financial. I wish I

Brett:

Did. You don't have to start there, but I'm just saying those are people that are spending a lot of money and they're finding success on YouTube.

Matt:

Yeah, no, totally. So you talk about having the right type of ads. So what do you mean when you say that? Because I think a lot of people at the moment when they think video are instantly thinking TikTok because everyone's telling them to advertise on TikTok. I'm assuming it's different.

Brett:

It is different. And I will say something about TikTok. One, I don't really like TikTok as a user, but that's beside the point. I know to be marketers, we got to do what our customers like now what we like, but I don't like it as a user. What's interesting though, I get to see a lot of big advertisers on what they're spending. I don't see anybody spending more than 10% of their budget on TikTok. I still think I should do it. I think you should be there. I think you should try organic TikTok as well. But we're not seeing TikTok explode usually what really moves the needle at scale, Facebook, YouTube, Google, and we're also seeing native ads, which that could be another podcast at some point, but native ads are pretty powerful. So ads that work though kind of depends on a couple things.

One, if you're just using YouTube as an awareness vehicle, which you can do that, it's the second most visited website on the planet, second largest search engine. It's got so many users, you can use it for an awareness plane. We have some bigger brands and p and g brands that do that. Proctor and Gamble brands that use YouTube for awareness. If you're doing that, then often shorter videos, 30 seconds can work. You're just trying to get engagement and maybe build a list of people that are engaged so you can follow up with search ads or more conversion driven ads. But if you want to drive conversions, and essentially all of our clients are performance based. They want to drive new customers an acceptable CPA or cac customer acquisition cost. So for that, we're seeing longer form videos work. And you got to think about it this way, if we're running Facebook ads, it could be a short 15 to 32nd ad.

A good friend of mine owns a coffee business and one of their top ads for a long time on Facebook was of this kind of sexy, tasty looking chocolate cake and pouring coffee next to the chocolate cake and it was just like eye candy, you know, look at it and you're like, oh, that looks delicious. But then the copy above the ad on Facebook is what really sold you right on the coffee and made you click. Well with YouTube all you have is the video, right? That's all you see. There's a call to action buttons and stuff, but not much text. So the video has to do all the work. It's got to interrupt somebody, it's got to overcome objections, it's got to show social proof, it's got to show the product in action. It's got to give a couple of offers, right? It's got to convince someone enough to say maybe, and hopefully they'll click on the ad and go a little bit further.

And so we're typically seeing minute and a half to three minute videos. Wow. Sometimes shorter work with a big automotive brand and they're winning ad for conversions with a 45 second ad. But typically we don't see 32nd ads. You usually don't convert nearly as well as a 45 or a 62nd ad. Usually just the longer someone engages with a video, the more likely they are to say, eh, maybe I'm going to check this out. I'm going to give this a shot, I'm going to check it out. And so that's what we're looking for and I'm happy to break down the structure of ads or whatever makes the most sense. But I'll pause there to see if you have any questions or thoughts.

Matt:

Yeah, I lots Brett, because everything is telling us at the moment, you've got to get shorter and shorter. I in it's not is to be seven seconds or whatever he is got to be on Instagram reels and all that sort of stuff. And you're like, oh geez man. But actually you're the second person this week I've heard say actually long form is making a bit of a comeback. Although how you define longform 90 seconds to three minutes is not how I define long form. But it's funny how 90 seconds is now long form ad copy, right? It's really interesting, isn't it? So why do you think then with YouTube you need this sort of 92nd to three minute video ish kind of range versus the ten second thing that works fine over there on TikTok?

Brett:

Yeah, so I think part of it is just the nature of the platform with on TikTok we're used to rapid fire. We're kind of moving on to the next thing very quickly. We're in a different head space and you kind of mentioned it when you were talking about YouTube for your daughter, for yourself, you're maybe going there to learn something, getting ready to engage a little bit. So you're kind of maybe settled in just a bit and you're going to enjoy this YouTube experience. Maybe it's only going to be a few minutes because you're just learning one specific thing, but you're focused. And I think that that's another thing to keep in mind. No one goes to YouTube to watch your ad. Someone goes to YouTube to learn or to be educated or to listen to music or whatever the case may be. So your ad is definitely interrupting them and it's not why they ain't.

So we also see a lot of people, and this kind of skips ahead a little bit, but to the measurement piece of YouTube, this is where a lot of people get it wrong. There's going to be a lot of people that see that YouTube app, they engage with it a little bit, they like it, they think this could be interesting, but they stick on YouTube, right? Because they're there to watch a video, they're on a mission. I got to figure out how to fix my washing machine, or I got to figure out how to fix my lawnmower or whatever. I got to figure out this answer to a test or know why I'm not on YouTube. But they might later than search for your product. So I think the longer you get someone to engage with you, the more likely they are to say, okay, okay, I'll just, I'll go check this out.

This is compelling enough, interesting enough to go check it out. And just to expand on what is long form and what is not, we do have some brands boom by Cindy Josif is one, shout out to Azure Firestone. It's cosmetics for women over the age of 50 primarily. They still have six and seven minute videos that work pretty well. We have an automotive brand that runs 15 minute videos. But one thing YouTube said recently within the last year is if you upload a video over three minutes, they will kind of tax you so to speak. So the cost per view is going to go up. That still may work out if that video really converts people that it may be just fine. But that's kind of where that under three minutes you're, that's probably enough time to convince someone and you're maybe in Google's good graces a little bit better to lower your cost per view.

Matt:

Wow. How does it work, I suppose with how they bill you? So if I put on a 92 second video versus a three minute video, am I paying more for the three minute video than I would be a 92 second video?

Brett:

So the type of ad we run, and there's a few ways to go about running ads on YouTube, but I prefer TrueView, which I'll explain that in a minute. And then specifically TrueView for action, which means we're trying giving Google the goal of conversion of some kind, email signup, add tocar purchase, things like that. So TrueView means that person has to watch either 30 seconds if the video's over 30 seconds or the whole video if it's less than 30 seconds. So if they hit skip, you do not pay for that. So it's a true view, you are paying a cost per view, so it's more impression based, but they actually bill you on a view. So that can be anywhere from 3 cents to 30 cents depending on how narrow and focused your audience is and how you're building or how you're bidding rather. So you're ping for view per view, but then you're, as you're giving Google kind of that goal of a conversion, then Google's going to be looking for people that convert, right?

Yeah. They're going to be looking for people that are likely to click and then to take that desired action. But we have seen for some videos that really people engage with that the view rate drops. So what Google looks for, so with search ads where you got quality score as your click through rate goes up on a search ad, so the percentage of people that see it click on it as that goes up, Google's like, Hey, this is a great ad, I'm going to show this more. And your CPCs go down on that similar thing on YouTube. If okay, the more people that see that ad, watch the ad, Google's like victory, people like this, we're going to keep showing it more. So your cost per view can actually go down in some cases because Google makes more money because just more people are watching it. So usually what happens then is if your video's a little bit longer, you'll just see that cost per view go up a little bit. But sometimes that's okay, maybe a video that's got an eight second cost per view, maybe the conversion rate is higher on add to cart and purchase. So it totally makes sense. And maybe that outperforms a vita that's got a 5 cent cost per view, right? So the cost per view is just one metric to pay attention to, but it is at least somewhat based on how much people are engaging with it.

Matt:

That's fascinating. So if I look at everyone likes to use return on investment, they, they're ROI or Roaz or whatever acronyms we can now throw into the pot. But if I say spend 10 grand on Google AdWords and spend 10 grand on YouTube, assuming I've got a good ad, of course, is the sort of return on that investment similar or does YouTube outperform Google shopping or is it actually we can't really tell at this point? It depends on everything else.

Brett:

Yeah, it's a great question. And then this is where I think a lot of people get tripped up. And I'll use a quick basketball analogy because as you said, I why not? Yeah, this way. I think so. And then we got an international audience. I'm going to use Michael Jordan and the Bulls from the na. Is that my era? And hopeful what people recognize. So on that team you got Jordan and Jordan was the soul of the team, the greatest player to ever play that type of thing. His stats are going to be much different than say Dennis Rodman, who if you don't know Dennis Rodman, he was a defensive player and he got more rebounds than anybody. He's just a rebounding machine. But every time you get a rebound, that's another possession for the offense. So if you looked at Jordan and Rodman and you said, Hey, Jordan scored 40 points tonight, Rodman scored two, we got a bench Rodman that that's not looking at the stats correctly.

What you should be saying is, Hey, Jordan scored 40 and Rodman rebounded the ball 25 times and got the offense 25 more possessions than we wouldn't have had. So what we look at at Google and YouTube, Google is the closer, right? Google is that that's closer to the purchase. If someone's searching and they click on a search ad or a shopping ad or a remarketing ad, they're close to purchasing. So that's more lower funnel. YouTube is typically higher in the phone. So if all we're looking at is ROAS return on ad spend, Google's going to do way better than YouTube often. And this is where a lot of people get tripped up often YouTube is a one roaz or lower. And so you're like, well how can anyone ever succeed on YouTube at that kind of ROAS? But here's what happens. You got to look at it as a team or we call it a portfolio.

So the way we look at it is, hey, you've got search and shopping and remarketing in Google ads working and say you're hitting a three to four row ads. Well, what you should be able to do is add in YouTube at the top of the funnel and YouTube is going to make everything bigger and better. YouTube is going to grow your branded search. YouTube's going to make shopping grow. And we've seen this. So once someone gets to say 30,000 a month in YouTube spend or higher, it's got a 30 to 40% lift on those other campaigns. So the way we have to look at it then is collectively what does YouTube do to our other campaigns? And so what we always talk about is say, let's figure out what is the right return on ad spend or what is the right customer acquisition cost for your brand?

And then we're going to look at YouTube collectively. Cause if all you do is look at YouTube and isolation it, it's going to be disappointing. And that is one shortcoming of Google and YouTube, I think to Facebook. Facebook pre iOS 14 anyway was better at tracking conversions. Now everybody kind of sucks at it, but if you just look at a YouTube campaign in isolation, it does not tell the full story. YouTube drives sales on Amazon, YouTube leads to more branded searches, YouTube grows the whole portfolio. So we still want to hold it accountable. We still want to really focus in on our CAC and our CPA or our ROAZ numbers, but just know YouTube is feeding the other campaigns that that's a large part of what it does.

Matt:

So do you think that's why it's not been as popular maybe as a platform, certainly with the smaller to medium enterprises that yeah, haven't got the bigger budgets. Is that one of the key reasons that's stopping this? I

Brett:

Believe it is. I believe it is, yeah. And listen, if you got a really killer offer and you got a really great landing page, we've got a client in the beard space, beard care, and they've got this great sample offer, try our best fragrances and it's a $10 offer. And direct conversions are really low or direct cost per conversions are really low. It's outperforming face. So with the right setup it can outperform Facebook as well. But just in general, YouTube is better at lifting all other campaigns than it is driving direct conversions. Okay,

Matt:

That's good to know. So let's run through quickly, Brett, a s stricture for a video. What sort of things do we need to think about in our sort of long format? I still love that phrase, long form ad, a long

Brett:

Form. 30 seconds, 90

Matt:

Seconds.

Brett:

90 seconds is long form in today's day and age. So first thing is you got to hook the right audience. So that first five seconds, that's the time when someone cannot skip. If we're running a true review ad, it's skippable lab, but first five seconds you're locked in. So that's when you are interrupting the right audience. So I want to do something to grab their attention. I want to ask a thought provoking question. I want to make a thought-provoking statement. I want to show something. So I want to hook the audience, but I like for that hook, not just to be random, not just like an explosion or a gorilla or something weird, but tie it into the product. And so that's where you can ask a question, Hey, do you want to have this TA bronzer product we worked with? That was like, Hey, do you want to have gorgeous, sexy legs in a matter of seconds?

And so then it talked about the bronzer and how it worked. So you got to hook the right audience. Then you really need some kind of product demo. So show the product in action, show some before and after, show what the product does and you want it to be really benefit oriented. So what are the benefits of this product? I really like social proof after that. So I think the winning ads that we see, either they're showing reviews or they're talking about millions sold, or ideally they've got some user generated content, some videos from actual customers talking about, Hey, I was skeptical, or Hey, I didn't believe this would work. Or Hey, I've tried other products and they didn't work, but this really worked and here's how it worked. So some kind of social proof is great. And then you need to start getting into the call to action.

So this is where we're saying, Hey, go here and watch this demo or go here and check out this video or check our exclusive offer. So you're trying to get the click, and really you want to have a couple of calls to action in that video to try to get someone to click. And so that's kind of the distilled version. We could double click on a couple of those or go a little bit deeper. But if you can do those things, then you're pretty likely to get the click. You want the pace to be pretty fast too, that that's one of the mistakes that a lot of people make is they're trying to do all those things and they realize they've got 90 seconds or three minutes or whatever, they just go kind of slow. But people's attention span is still quick, it's still low. We got to every six, seven seconds, we got to cut, we got something different. We're mixing it up a little bit. So the pace has to feel pretty fast or you'll lose people. But that, that's kind of a quick basic overview.

Matt:

Well, which makes sense. The hook at the start. That makes sense. Everyone's talking about hooks on there at the moment. You know, need a hook for reels, you need a hook for Instagram, you need a hook for YouTube, everybody. You need a hook for your sales page, you need a hook. So I've got my hook. And so the video is in effect encouraging the viewer to click the video that's in effect what you are selling. Like that's my call. I want you to click this video that then takes, the first

Brett:

Thing is I want you to watch this video, right? I'm promising you enough. We did an ad like, hey, three reasons why your YouTube ads aren't working. That was the opening. This will, okay, well I've tried YouTube, it's not working, I'm listening. So the first thing is get them to watch the video, but then the next thing is to drive that click.

Matt:

Yeah. Okay. So then you've got the click, you are sending them through to our specific landing page related to that ad, not necessarily in our topic of conversation, but what kind of things do I need to think about on that landing page?

Brett:

Yeah, this is really great. So the first thing is you want them to feel like they're in the right place. So whatever you led with in the hook, whatever was really the focus of that video. You want some kind of tie in with the headline of that lander. And we've worked with a couple of clients that have used the Harmon Brothers for video production or Raindrop Creative, and they've got paid actors to do a great job in the video. Sometimes you want them visible on the lander so that as soon as you land there, you're like, ah, I'm in the right place. But you want the headline to be congruent to what they just watched in the video, and then you really need to do more selling. Just because you got the click does not mean they're ready to purchase. So you still want to go through really specifying the benefits and laying out some of the features and seeing some video and seeing some social proof. So typically, and here's what we really recommend, if you've got a lander that works well for cold traffic on Facebook, it's probably going to work well for YouTube as well. We sometimes send people to a product detail page, but only if that product detail page is really well built out. Yeah, where it's got branding, it overcomes objections, it answers all the questions, and so usually a little longer form on the lander works a lot better as well.

Matt:

So I guess there, there's a strategy here which says, I'm going to build the landing page. I'm going to use Facebook ADSD to quickly and easily cheaply test this landing page and before I release the YouTube video. And

Brett:

100%, I think that's one of the real advantages of Facebook is it's easier to test at a lower budget. But once you say, okay, here's the landing page that works, or let's say you find a 32nd video that works on Facebook that could end up being your hook for your YouTube app, that could be the opening for your YouTube ad. So I do agree. We actually tell these people this all the time. It's not a bad idea to get things dialed in on Facebook first and then go YouTube because I think Facebook is easier to test with.

Matt:

Wow. Fantastic. Fantastic. Listen, you've obviously done this a fair amount over the recent years. Have you got any good stories, any examples that we could look at or maybe big wins or just really interesting case studies?

Brett:

Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of mentioned this client a few times and I mentioned them a lot because Ezra Firestone, the owner doesn't mind if we talk numbers and he likes to be a,

Matt:

Oh, he's puts it all up anyway. I mean does,

Brett:

She's like an open book cause he's got a marketing training company as well. And so boom by Cindy Joseph, it's a skincare for women over the age of 50 primarily. So they historically they grew on Facebook. Facebook was their number one engine for driving new customers. So we worked with them to get the right type of ad for YouTube. And over the course of about six months, we took YouTube from zero to now they're number two marketing channel, so it's behind Facebook. We also noticed we helped them launch on Amazon. So they were not on Amazon brand. We helped them launch there. When we're advertising on YouTube, we see a lift on Amazon as well. So that's one example. Another one is a hair care product. I can't mention the brand name, but hair care product for women. And again, we took, they got to where their YouTube spend was about half what they spent on Facebook, but the YouTube spend was still substantial.

It was still several hundred thousand a month on YouTube and noticed the same thing. We managed their Amazon and when we would have to fluctuate the YouTube spend, we could see it both in Amazon's sales but then also in Amazon's searches. Like the brand searches on Amazon would fluctuate as we had to fluctuate on YouTube. So those are a couple of examples. We also work with native deodorant. They're a Proctor and Gamble brand, natural deodorant. And so we've used YouTube in a variety of ways for Native, this is where I think YouTube can get really interesting if you're selling Instore and online, you can do some pretty fun things. So we created some campaigns and a couple of test markets to try to increase sell through in-store for native on YouTube and really create some great results there as well. You can do some fun things like brand lift studies where if you've ever been on YouTube and you see those questionnaires that pop up before the video you're wanting to watch, those are done by Google. And so you can also kind of see what is the brand lift that my YouTube ads created through looking at surveys. And so we've done that a number of times for supplement brands and food brands, and that's worked really well. So yeah, I think it, it's very doable to grow YouTube to be either your number two or potentially number one when you combine it with YouTube, new customer acquisition plan, new customer acquisition channel. And I think that's very doable for a lot of brands. Wow.

Matt:

Okay. So before I move on to a few questions about Google, because we should, given the title of the podcast, we should talk about Google at least a little bit. If someone's listening to this and they're going, Brett, I love the sound of YouTube, but realistically, is my business where it needs to to start on YouTube? Is YouTube ads something that everybody should look at, even if they're a startup? Or is it something where you go, actually guys, you need to probably be at X before you really start to think about YouTube and you need to have at least a minimum budget of Y to make sense of it? Yeah,

Brett:

Yeah, it's a great question. I really do recommend you get the foundational things in place. So you want search, you want shopping, you want remarketing. You kind of want the bottom of the funnel really well built out because if the bottom of the funnel is strong, then you can be more aggressive at the top of the funnel and you'll close more business. So I recommend search, shopping, remarketing on the Google side of things, build that out first. You want some landers that are converting cold traffic and probably start with Facebook first on for testing that. And so I don't know if there's a minimum amount of sales that you need before you do run YouTube, but you do want those other things built out first and you want a proven lander. But we've tested with some smaller skincare brands and a few others where we've tested with a five to $10,000 a month budget on YouTube and we saw some performance and we kind of isolated by saying, okay, this is a landing page we're only sending YouTube traffic to, so we can track what people do after they hit that landing page and it performed well.

So I think foundation first, five to 10 K, minimum budget, that's kind of where you need to start. And then usually you need to be able to handle a 50 to a hundred dollars customer acquisition cost before YouTube really makes sense for you. You can get it lower than that. We do have brands that get it lower than that, but that's like a good starting point, right? And that's also direct conversions. So knowing that, hey, we'll probably get some bleed over into Amazon, get some bleed over into our branded campaigns, but that's probably the direct conversion amount you'll see is kind of that 50 to a hundred dollars cpa.

Matt:

Fantastic. Thank you for that, Brett. Very helpful. So now let's talk about Google in the closing part of this show. Everybody is talking at the moment about Google Performance Max. Now, I appreciate the time that we are recording this and the time that it will be released there. There's a little bit of discrepancy between the two things, and so everything could have changed. So I'm just prefacing everything with the world could have changed once we record.

Brett:

It's going to all be outdated. That is actually true for the YouTube side, I don't think so. But for performance Max Man, who knows? Yeah.

Matt:

Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy world out there in the moment, which is fine. So if people haven't heard of Google Performance Max, what should they know?

Brett:

So actually, when I first heard about Performance Max, I hated the idea. I thought this was Google trying to just take over the world and again, make a campaign a total black box and take away every ounce of control that have. But as we've tested it, and Matt, we've spent now about 3 million in the just on performance Max on the last month, month and a half, something like that. And so we're seeing some really positive results. But what it is, basically it's all Google channels rolled into one singular campaign. So search shopping, display discovery, YouTube maps if you're a local business, and I let something else out. But anyway, it's all Google campaigns in one channel. So basically, I think what Google's doing here is they want to make it easier to launch campaigns. And we've seen actually some big Facebook advertisers lean into Performance Max.

Some Facebook agencies lean into Performance Max because with Performance Max, it really becomes more about the creative, do I have the right images? Do I have the right product listings in my feed for Google Shopping? Do I have the right videos? And we just talked about getting a video that's optimized for YouTube. So you put those in a campaign and basically what you're giving YouTube is, or what you're giving Google is a couple things, one asset or one audience signals. So you're not telling Google Target this audience specifically. They don't let you do that. But you can say, Google here is my ideal audience, and it's a signal. So start here and then kind of go wild after that. So you're really just giving Google a starting point, but it's an ideal spot for machine learning. And as the campaign gets more conversions, it gets smarter and better, and you actually do have ways we can control it.

It's probably a little more complex when we can get in the next few minutes, but basically Performance Max now replaces smart shopping. So if you're running smart shopping before Mochi, most eCommerce brands were, yeah, that's now Performance Max, but we've seen some Performance Max campaigns really lean into YouTube. So this may be a great place to test YouTube is just through Performance Max. We've seen some campaigns that as best as we can tell, 40, 50, 60% of the budget is going to YouTube inside of Performance Max. But I think what Google realized is that a lot of people don't understand how to use the Display Network ads or how to use YouTube ads. So okay, just give us your assets, tell us your audience signals, and we'll go from there. You can really set campaigns up to succeed or set them up to fail. But so far they've been pretty fantastic and really good at driving new customers. See, I think Smart Shopping leaned into remarketing a little bit more, right? Performance Max is really good at driving new customers, getting those, Nick,

Matt:

Because again, Google is smelling blood, aren't they? Where Facebook's

Brett:

Consent totally.

Matt:

They're like totally

Brett:

Dun, dun, dun, the one they're seeing, Hey, Facebook beat us and made it easier. So we're going to try to combat that. But also they're saying, yeah, Facebook's in a bad spot, and then Google's in a little bit better spot because Google owns all their data. You've given that data first party to Google. So it's a fantastic campaign type. I've got a free resources that we can talk about for Performance Max, but I'm bullish on it. As you said, a lot of things can change, but I think the core is going to be there, what we just talked about. But if Performance Max isn't one of your top campaigns, then something is one of your top Google campaigns, then something's probably wrong. It should be one of your top campaigns.

Matt:

Well, so we definitely need to check out on that. So again, I'm just trying to think of the different type of listeners that we have. We get people who are just starting out in eCommerce, Brett, and they're like, is Performance Max something that they should look at, or Yeah,

Brett:

I think so. Because one, Google, it's the future of Google. Google loves it, they're prioritizing it. So because Performance Max also has a strong shopping component. So product listing ads, Google Shopping ads, whatever you want to call it, because that's a central part of Performance Max, you can be really efficient with Performance Max. So if you need to hit a three x or four X or five x row ads or whatever performance, max can do that. It's probably going to lean in more to shopping and lean in more to search, and not so much YouTube, but it'll do that. And because it replaces smart shopping, I think you kind of have to test it. You can still run standard shopping too. But yeah, I think small advertisers should definitely still run Performance Max, just change the way you bit, right, bid a little more efficiently to try to focus that campaign and keep it from kind of going wild. But I think Performance Max is going to be central for essentially every e-com brand.

Matt:

Wow. And what were the free resources that you mentioned? Do you want to give that as a quick click?

Brett:

Yeah, so I'm trying to think of the best way to get, we did host a Performance Max webinar, and I can shoot you the link, cause I'm really drawing a blank here. It's a presentation that I did. And then some of the members of my team, we did like a traffic panel, so it's all free. And then I did a Performance Max Blueprint with Ezra Firestone and Smart Market. That's actually a paid resource, but you can check that out. I think there's some freebies that go with it. But I'll get you on link to that presentation that that's a great place to start. Fantastic. And then also have a free YouTube resource as well, because that getting the YouTube ad is so critical, but put together, it's a PDF of the top performing YouTube ads that we've seen and with links to those ads. So you can watch that. Oh, that's

Matt:

Cool.

Brett:

And I kind of break down, kind of categorize 'em, break 'em down, show you why I think they work. And so that's a good way to learn. And that is free. So you just go to omg commerce.com, click on resources, and then it's the YouTube add templates and examples, so that that's completely free. So check that app. Yeah, both those are a great resources.

Matt:

Fantastic. And we will of course have the links to that in the show notes. Brett, listen, I'm aware of time, and I've started asking this question to people at the end of the podcast going, listen, you are in this amazing place, right? You've got an amazing family excited about what's going on at work. You're a basketball coach. I'm kind of curious with, the way we put this to people is we say, listen, the eCommerce cohort sponsors the podcast. So imagine you're in a hotel room full of cohorts, you've just delivered your best keynote speech ever. They're all going crazy.

Brett:

Go break.

Matt:

Let's go break. Yeah. Yeah. Pompoms everything. Yeah. Yeah. You stand up, you take a bow and you go, I hate, listen. It wouldn't, I just would like to thank dot, dot, dot. Who were the people that you would like to thank and white?

Brett:

Oh, man, that is such a great question. So I think first of all, my parents. My dad was always a super hard worker in a totally different industry with his hands mechanic, but taught me the value of showing up every day, giving it all you got. And so that he's definitely worn. My uncle taught me sales and taught me persuasion, taught me how to connect with people. And so learned a lot from him. My first pastor at the church I attended really taught me leadership and taught me how to communicate effectively and authentically communicating to really cause change. And so all those weaved together and then, like I said, has always been fascinated by people. And so that's what kind of led me, I think, to marketing. But I would put those three at the top of my list. I've got some great business mentors as well, but those would be kind of top of my list.

Matt:

Fantastic. Well, thank you very much to all those people. Listen, Brett, love to the conversation, as I'm sure many of the listeners have. Great to finally get you on. How do people reach you? How do they connect with you if they want to?

Brett:

Sure. Best way to connect us through the website, omg commerce.com. You can click on the Let's Talk button and fill out a form there. You can email me Brett with two ts, omg commerce.com. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm trying, I'm, I'm going to say this publicly, a little pressure on myself.

Matt:

I'm

Brett:

Trying get into Twitter a little bit more. All my spreads are like Twitter, it's where it's at, so an Eon owns it now, whatever. But I'm working on getting more involved in Twitter. We'll see, I don't know, you may check it out and you may be like, wow, your last post was like five years ago. You may check it out and may be going while, but LinkedIn for sure, you can email may check out the website. So those are the best ways.

Matt:

Fantastic. I'm the same way on Twitter. I have a Twitter account and I can't remember how many people I'm connected to. Maybe 20,000 people on Twitter follow. And I just never use it. And I kind of think I probably should at some point stock. I've

Brett:

Few people say there's some of the best connections they're making now. There's like, there's just like this explosion of direct to consumer and marketing people on Twitter is what I'm understanding. And so I'm going to give it a go. I'm going to

Matt:

I Well, I'll tell you. I'll be in it with you. Well, we'll, Twitter. Twitter, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. Fantastic. Thanks Brett, so much for coming on the show, man. Absolute legend. And I'll see you in Twitter. I'll see you on Twitter. Thanks, brother. Really appreciate it. Absolutely. So what a great conversation. Huge. Thanks again to Brett Ford joining me today. What a legend. A big shout out to today's show sponsor, which is eCommerce cohort. You can find out more information about them at eCommerce cohort.com. Do check out this new type of community you can join. Be sure to follow the eCommerce podcast wherever you get your podcast from because we've got even more great conversations lined up and I don't want you to miss any of them. And just in case no one has told you yet today, dear listener, you are awesome. Yes you are.

It's just a burden we've all got to bear. I've got a bear, Brad Scott's spirit exception. The eCommerce podcast is produced by Oria Media. You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Bein on Josh Catchpole, Estella Robin and Tim Johnson. Our theme song was written by Josh Edmundson and My Good Self. And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, head over to the website, eCommerce podcast.net, where coincidentally you can also sign up for our weekly newsletter and get all of this good stuff directly to your inbox totally free. Totally amazing. So that's it from me. That's it from Brad. Thank you so much for joining us. Hope you enjoyed the conversation, make sure you connect with him, get you freebies, and then I'll see you next week. Have a fantastic week. Bye for now.

‍

Andrew Foxwell and I go way back. We recorded our first podcast together over 6 years ago!

Andrew is a seasoned expert in the advertising industry and the driving force behind a remarkable Meta agency that collaborates with renowned brands like Trek.

He also runs an amazing community of brand owners, agency owners and marketing professionals called Foxwell Founders. (Over 400 members strong and collectively spending 250 million plus per month on ads.)

Join us as Andrew shares his invaluable insights on the ever-evolving advertising landscape.

Here's a glimpse of what we cover in this episode:

• What creatives are working best right now on Meta and Google, and are TikTok-style ads worth testing on multiple platforms?
• How answering questions is essential on more platforms than just Google search.
• What strategies are working right now with different Meta campaign types.
• Why having great creatives is only valuable with proper creative testing.
• How to focus on what's really unique about your product in your ads.
• Andrew's approach of "scaling in place" and how it applies to Meta and YouTube.
• Operational AI vs. Platform AI.
• What Andrew's "not, not excited" about AI means (I tend to share his perspective).

Mentioned In This Episode:

• Founders Community
• Foxwell Digital
• GLG Insights
• Northbeam Newsletter
• Andrew Foxwell (LinkedIn)
• Andrew Foxwell (Twitter)
• Brett Curry (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (Twitter)

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and I am absolutely thrilled about today's episode and today's guest. I go way, way back with this guest. We used to do podcasts together five years ago, six years ago. Feels like an eternity now. My guest is Andrew Foxwell and he is the co-founder of Foxwell Digital, which is a leading Facebook social agency and more also Foxwell Founders, which is really the reason we reconnected. I could started hearing all this buzz about the Foxwell founders community and everybody's raving about it. I was like, oh dude, I got to reach out to Andrew, see what's going on. And he's doing even more than that. So we'll dive in. We're going to talk about what's working right now in terms of Facebook and Instagram. We're going to talk AI a little bit. We're going to talk about what is Andrew's connections with Wall Street, which I think will be super fun. And so really looking forward to it. Andrew, thanks for taking the time, man, and welcome to the show. How you doing?

Andrew:

Yeah, man, thank you so much. I'm doing well. Glad to be here.

Brett:

When do you think was the last time we were on a podcast together? I think it was five years ago. Six years ago. Easily

Andrew:

Six years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Crazy. It's been a hot man. But you know what? We're here now and we're better. We're back and better than ever, baby.

Brett:

We're here now. We still got lots of energy. We got more wisdom. I got more gray hair. We're just doing it. Oh, absolutely. We're out there

Andrew:

Doing it. Absolutely.

Brett:

So we're going to Bo share our perspectives on kind of what's working on now and what's, we're going to talk about AI a little bit, which is fun. And what's cool, Andrew, you've got this perspective. You run an agency, I run an agency over G Commerce, but you've got a bigger perspective even than that. I mean, your agency is amazing, but you've got this community of 400 people in this community. So if you would, Andrew, talk about what is the community? Cause I think this will set the context for your perspective and some of the things you share on the podcast, but what is the community? Why'd you start it and give us the low down? Yeah,

Andrew:

Definitely. I mean, a couple of years ago, our daughter was born in three years ago and was really coming in pandemic times, feeling lonely and feeling like, am I the only one seeing this? And I felt like Twitter wasn't the best place for my mental health.

Brett:

Not always a positive place to hang. That is for sure.

Andrew:

Yeah, and I'm not saying it's all negative, but it wasn't the greatest place for me and I was feeling really down. And so I decided, Gracie and I talked about it and I decided we, let's figure out a way to get our v I P course customers who've bought more than three courses in one place talking and let's see if we launch a community. And that was just the idea was can we build something that helps people feel less alone and more supported? Yeah. Now it's 445 members from 25 countries spending over 250 million a month just on meta. It's brand owners, agencies, in-house, people at brands. We have, I think five or six agencies. Our whole staff is in the membership. That's how valuable it is. And we talk about everything under the sun, meta adds, creative, creative testing, cro, Google Ads, TikTok, all that. And running an agency, big or small, we have places for both. So my perspective is not just my own, but is here's what we see across the landscape. And primarily these people are in the United States, Canada and in Europe. So we do have members in South America as well, and Eastern Europe and Thailand and places like that. But it's primarily focused in the uk, or excuse me, in the EU and the United States and Canada.

That's really a good barometer of where performance is a lot of times on things and obviously still have the New Zealand and Australia members because they always get new features first. So that's always good to have too.

Brett:

They're living in the future as we'd like.

Andrew:

That's right. Nice. Yeah, so a lot of it, the things that I talk about, it's not just me and here's what I'm seeing across this breadth of people, and these are primarily direct response D to C people. We need to spend money to make money, and that's what we're hired to do.

Brett:

Love that. Well, so this will be fantastic. You obviously want your perspective too, but I know you'll be able to pull some examples and you've got this influence of this amazing community behind you. And so as we dive into what's working now primarily on meta, but we can talk a little bit about Google and YouTube as well, but what are you seeing, and we'll try not to get too nerdy or too technical here, but let's just talk creatives for a minute. What are you seeing that's working now from a creative standpoint?

Andrew:

Yeah, I mean I think from a creative standpoint, a couple different things. One is building creatives that look sort of TikTok centric or answering a question or have a good hook at the beginning from a video ad standpoint is helpful. So the more that you're answering questions and instead of thinking about, here's what I want to tell you about this service. Somebody the other day that was there, remember brought to me an ad and it was for a conference and it was talking about the conference and all the things that were going to be happening at this conference and he's selling tickets to this conference. And I was like, well, what are you ultimately trying to solve with people? Come to this conference? What are the issues that they have? And it's for business owners. So it was, are you missing quarterly sales goals? You're identifying the problems and you're having ads that address those particular problems with the hook at the beginning and an explainer of what it does and making that ad more informative.

So that's the kind of thing that we look at. And you're looking at it generally in a four to five aspect ratio. So it's more of a tall video format and you can also have static images that mirror that kind of idea too. So from a creative standpoint, that's part of it. And having at least somewhere in your mix creators or influencers or people on your own staff creating these ads with you and understanding how quickly the cuts need to be cut up in the video. So two seconds, two seconds, that kind of thing. And keeping an ad moving is as long as those kind of elements are integrated, that's some of the best performing creative that you see across the board right now.

Brett:

I love that so much. And I would echo that and I remember a quote from Google years ago as they were talking about their very first product, Google AdWord, and they said, Hey, what if a good ad was just an answer to a question, right? And I think that's still true, and it doesn't just have to be true for search. It makes sense with search because people are typing in a query and they're asking a direct question and you're giving an answer. But I think it's true in other platforms as well. We've all got these questions and these thoughts and these concerns that are banging around in our head. And so maybe the greatest add or the best ads are just answers to those questions and hitting those point blank. And so a couple things we're seeing, and we do not run traffic on Meta or TikTok or any of those places.

We do a lot on YouTube, one of the top spenders on YouTube, we're finding now YouTube shorts. Those are working fantastically well for remarketing working in other areas as well. And we've been able to successfully pull content from TikTok ads and from Instagram reels and use those almost unchanged on YouTube shorts. And that's a bit of a new first for us because if we look at what YouTube ads typically work for standard pre-roll TrueView YouTube ads, it's usually ads that are minute and a half to three and a half minutes. It's more of a direct response field, is what we run anyway. Almost feels more like an infomercial, but it doesn't have to look like an infomercial. Exactly. And so you've never really been able to take videos directly from Meta and run them on YouTube. But now I think you can with YouTube shorts depending on a few things. And I think one of the things that we'll continue to focus on here is just like how can we continue to write better headlines and better descriptions even in search? Cause I think a lot of times you forget about search or forget about your headline in Google shopping or some of these things, but making little tweaks there, looking to constantly improve there makes a big, big difference. So creatives mean as machine learning and AI improves, I think more of our job is going to be related to creatives, but we'll see. Yeah,

Andrew:

I agree with you. The question the creatives is a really interesting piece. There's actually an incredible YouTube series by one of the agencies two two a couple members of our community, Jess Bachman from Fire team runs a show called Autopsy on YouTube and you can just check it out. Barry Hata a regular contributor as well, and they go through and dissect ads and we have some of this in the membership and it's really amazing how much it can be broken down and how little tweaks can make a major difference. Another thing that's interesting about it is how much Jess is the one that told me this, which is I always think about is what can you say that others uniquely that others cannot, that you can uniquely say? And that is a real, that's an interesting question to start to go after as part of the ad because a lot of people can talk about reviews, you can talk about it's the best window cleaner out there, whatever it is, but what is the uniqueness of it and how is it being pitched?

Because if it's a hundred percent compostable, whatever, even if other people share those, but they're not using that as something that you feel like you can uniquely say because it represents your brand, then that's a big deal. So yeah, the creative thing is such a nuance to gain, but once you start thinking in that framework, your whole thinking changes. And I've had to really learn this over the last two years because one of the big shifts obviously that we've gone through from the med ads standpoint is we are no longer just pulling levers on Facebook ads. You used to be able to launch something with a white t-shirt and a white background and launch it to a PDP and it would convert. I mean not all the time and not create, but it wouldn't do bad. Now we're in this place where we've had to become marketers really we're have to think of the whole funnel and it's made us better, I think ultimately is where it leaves us. And creatives is part of that too. The ads are better and we're better at describing and pitching people on why they even should care in two or three seconds.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so interesting. So I want key on a couple of those points. The first one, looking at what makes your ad unique or your product unique, just do the talk at Ezra Firestones Blur and Mastermind on seven ad tests to evaluate your ads on before you run them. And one of them, the first one was actually called the scratch out write-in test where if you could take your ad and remove your brand, remove your logo, put in a competitor, if the ad still works, it's not a good ad. The ad needs to be unique to you and only, it doesn't mean that every element has to be unique to you, but the story as a whole, what you're saying with the ad needs to only fit for you. So what's unique, what's different is someone going to look at this and say, I don't know that I've seen anything quite like that before.

And that's not always easy to do, but I think it's really, really important. And so that's something to keep in mind. And what's also interesting to me, and we'll talk about AI more in just a minute, but I think as things progress and there's more machine learning and ai and yes, AI can into creating images and headlines and descriptions and write you whole novels and stuff like that, I still think that there's this great need for strategy and someone who can understand marketing and understand product market fit and what does a customer want and if this thing worked, why did it work and what should we test next? And so there there's going to need this to be this strategic component from really smart marketers that partner with the machine so to speak. And so any thoughts on that before? I want to hear your thoughts on overall strategy and what's working right now.

Andrew:

Yeah, I mean I think that you're right in reference strata strategic part of it and where that comes into mind is we have a lot of meetings of agency honors and it's a big, big group in our community and one of the things is trying to help them get more leads. And I really am a big believer right now that if you're an agency or even you're somebody, the DNA of how we were brought up, it was on this foundation of pulling levers. And like I said, yes. And now if you can be someone where you're pitching your services and you're talking about being an outsource CMO for example, or thinking more strategically and being a true growth partner, that is a very different pitch and ultimately will benefit you in the long run more than this other guy over here that's Jimmy who can run Facebook ads.

And I think that we know this, but that's really what we actually need and what the client needs to be successful and why I think a lot of us, sometimes you feel stuck and I certainly back myself into this corner where I feel stuck because I'm only thinking in one dimension and I'm not thinking about, well wait a minute, what's even the bundle that we're trying to sell? And I mean of course, what are the economics behind all of this? And really what is the understanding of it? So I think it's that strategy and how you think about it not only and work with clients on it is helpful and useful, but it's also how you're pitching it to the client to win your agency and yourself more business because it's underutilized in my opinion. And there's very few people that I can turn to know that I'm going to get a true strategic read on it all.

Brett:

And I think in a lot of ways things have gotten as this things have gotten more advanced, it's more complex, it's maybe more difficult to approach some of these platforms than it was before, even though it was more automation and to the subject of pulling levers. That was hard for some of our specialists internally. Like, hey, I've always pulled that lever that that's what I do. I'm really good at pulling that lever. But now you got to kind of raise up a level and think I'm moving bigger pieces now. I'm moving platforms or entire channel types, or now I'm looking at performance match, which is all Google channels rolled into one and I'm still manipulating things, but at a bigger level. And I like the analogy of an offensive coordinator, so to use football analogy, the offensive coordinator not on the field, not carrying the ball, not breaking tackles and throwing out stiff arms. They're elevated, they see the whole field, they're calling plays, they're calling in players, things like that. And that that's more, and I think that also ties into this outsourced CMO type role that's I think where agency of the future really valuable marketing team members more in that role. So still driving things but just moving bigger pieces instead of pulling small levers.

Andrew:

Yeah, I completely agree.

Brett:

Sweet. Love it. So let's talk a little bit about what do you see as recurring themes for, okay, if you're really going to make improvements, my meta ads aren't where they should be or this platform's not working the way it should. What are the things we should focus on? What are some of the recurring themes of this is what we need to focus on to get better results?

Andrew:

Yeah, I mean I think from a, speaking through the lens of meta ads and people that are spending forward on meta ads, I was reading the North Beam newsletter where they put out weekly

Brett:

Love North Beam newsletter, shout out the guys there

Andrew:

Spending is and how many people, it's like, well, 70% of people, it's still the primary channel and meta is for traffic for chop funnel traffic. So I think if you look through that lens, what you end up seeing is number one, a breakdown of those that want to improve. You have to number one, have an idea of what the economics are behind your brand. And that's something that a lot still don't. And that's a hard thing to do because it's really outside of our zone of genius. I mean I got to see in accounting, no, and I can say that publicly, but it's not a math guy. So that took me a while to figure that out. And thanks to members sharing worksheets and things in the membership, they will say, okay, here's what we understand about that. And I think I was doing that a little, but I was not doing it a ton and was leaving it to people internally to do at the company and now we have to become that partner. So that's number one. I think if you look just at meta itself and the things that strategically need to take place, it's making sure that you're customizing and setting up shops is another one because meta shops is going to continue to be a place that people are spending money and that meta's spending your money forcibly or not kind of you're going to be continue to be pushed there for onsite checkout with shops and things like or on shop checkout

Brett:

And influencer has been pretty solid. And most of the chatter I hear about, it's been alls all green.

Andrew:

Yeah, it depends on who you ask, but yeah, the point is that you have to have, we used to have, you know would just set up, I don't know, phenomics or something and it would build your catalog and then you were going to pixel my site pro or whatever. And now you can't just have that. You have to have, having a customized catalog as part of the shop is a really important part of it. So customizing that commerce experience is helpful and I think is something that can improve. I think from an account, obviously creative, we already talked about that. Having an inbound of creative that is consistent and constant based on how much you're spending on different angles and hooks and having a plan of how you're going to test them is a must because a lot of people have that, but they have no plan of how they're going to test it.

And so you end up with all this information that doesn't mean anything. And that same goes for landing pages and having landing pages that and best case scenario match the creative that you are talking about so that the click experience is more clean and people understand what you're trying to sell them. So I think that's another one. And then I think from a technical standpoint, having and testing advantage fall shopping campaigns, if you have not, is something that's going to continue to be a priority, especially in 2023 Met has GI given access to it now to basically every account. And what it does is you know, put in assets and there's no targeting really. You just set an existing customer cap. And so it seems to be a good vehicle for top funnel traffic and for literally all funnel traffic, but it's utilizing a different algorithm it seems thus far and we're still learning about it to get top funnel traffic in or get quality traffic into your site. So I think those are some of the foundational pieces that we need to be aware of in terms of what's working and changing the plan that you have.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. I want to highlight a couple things. One, looking at metrics and what are we measuring and what are we focusing on? And I think there needs to be this hierarch hierarchy of metrics. We're at the top is our financial goals, what are our business financial goals, whether that's contribution margin, ebitda, whatever that top level goal is, and likely the in platform goals that we usually focus on roaz or CPA or cac, they're important, but they're only as important as they help guide those financial metrics. So yeah, understanding that understanding why do we want a 200% row as or a 400% row as why, what is that contributing to or what is that rolling up to for the hierarchy of metrics? And a quick example, we had a client come to us recently for Google Ads management and they said we really want to be at a 400% return on that spend.

And as we started asking questions and digging a little deeper and trying to understand why it became clear that the 400% was just like what other people said. And so as we started actually running ads and experimenting a little bit, they found that a 200% return on ad spend actually contributed to their metrics better, more new customers. Their new customers were sticking it fed to overall profitability and so now they're growing at a much faster rate and hitting those profitability targets. So I love that really understanding the numbers. It's not just I'm following some random benchmark, but I'm understanding my business numbers and then I'm optimizing to hit that. So any tips on how you coach people or help people? And I know you said accounting wasn't your thing. I didn't like accounting class either, although I do like numbers. Any tips or suggestions there

Andrew:

Mean? A lot of it is the get some sort of worksheet or framework that you're able to look at with the business owner and walk them through it and how it can then tie to the ad goals that you're looking at in terms of transactions or conversions or return on ad spend from either the in platform metrics or in platform metrics. Plus it's like a scene of comedy. It's like yes, yeah, and a third party tool and GA four, make sure that not only you have a plan and understanding and walking through it with a client, but then you have an understanding of what are the daily metrics you're looking at and how are what making sure you're looking at the same thing. So that's the big one that I don't think a ton of people do right out of the gates and you have to make sure that you're agreed on that as much as possible.

Brett:

Yeah, I think that this train triangulation of data is really important. So in platform, yes, got to look at it, that third party, whether it's triple whale or North Beam or what have you, and then of course GA four needs to be there as well. And yeah, I think trying to simplify a little bit where you're looking at what's our MER or our media efficiency ratio to our total money in total money out, how are weekly sales changing as spin changes on various platforms. Looking at really simple stuff that you can use to make some general directions or observations and then digging into the details inside of triple oil and North Beamer or GA four, I think that makes a lot of sense for sure. So very cool. Yeah, and then looking at really understanding what kind of testing we're doing or rather how to approach testing. I love that you added that because even if we're getting really creative and really thoughtful with our ads, if we don't have a methodology to test them, then either we're not going to give them enough runway or we're going to give them too much space and waste money. Any tips there? Again, without getting too detailed or too into nitty gritty, any tips on testing methodologies or where someone should start?

Andrew:

I mean testing is number one, establish what you're trying to learn. So actually what do you want to know, number one, and if you want to know, well, I want to know what creatives work and I want to know what landing pages work with them. Okay, totally do that, but let's not do them at the same time and let's make sure that we understand first that probably creative itself in terms of understanding. If you've taken over an account and the person has not really done creative testing, the number one right out of the gates is try four or five different angles in static ads and figure out what on a broad audience they're responding to based on what we call soft metrics, like the ad level metrics. So that's number one is just figuring out what are they responding to and then from there going into testing different variations upon that particular things that they're responding to.

And then from there, going into landing page testing, which can be a big unlock. So it's more about what are you trying to figure out? And also then being patient and knowing that to figure a lot of these pieces out, it's going to take time and money to do so. You're not going to be losing money, but it's not going to be a major money maker right away if this has never been done. A lot of times two people testing to a lot of agencies and I think as an insulation for their own agency is they make it really complicated to make themselves look really smart. And in the reality, the best testing that I can do for you is putting things in a broad ad set. So 25 to 65 men and women or split by gender, whatever, and just launching it and seeing what creative metrics are going to work.

It's not necessarily anything. We used to have a thing where you would graduate, then you would or would say, okay, that ad did really well, now I'm going to pull it into my other ad set and run it. Not something you do anymore, what we call scale in place. If it's working, keep it rocking. You don't need to move it. Love that just to have it be there. So a lot of times, and well, what am I going to do? Launch another broad ad set? Yeah, launch another one and eliminate the one that did well keep that baby rolling. And so I think as humans we want to complicate things and in reality put the complication in your brain power into the different variations on creative and the different hooks and the way that you're talking about them and the different angles you're going for and how they can speak to different segments or problems that your customer has. And that's going to be more beneficial than trying to complicate it at the other side when it comes to testing.

Brett:

Love it. And yes, I can attest agencies are guilty of that and I can pick on agencies, you can pick on agency, you're an agency owners, so I sounds cool when we invent our new way of this is a proprietary way of testing and this is our model and it's a 75 point test and it's like, okay, yeah, you probably don't need all that, but that does sound impressive. So yeah. Yes, simplifying is great and I love the idea of scaling in place. We do the same thing on YouTube. If you're testing a new ad and it blows up in a campaign, don't move it. Let it live there. So got all the oxygen and all the data, just let it roll. So I love that. Hey, let's pivot a little bit. You and I can geek out on ads and strategy and what's working, what's not forever, but I want to talk about AI just a little bit. Sure. What are you hearing in the community? What are you testing? Are you extremely bullish on ai? Are you a little nervous about ai? How is it impacting things right now from your perspective?

Andrew:

I mean I think it's two prong. One is, I think there's the first one is there's operational ai. So what are you doing in terms of operations for your agency or for your brand in terms of coming out with more iterations of things, copy hooks and angles, language, I mean that's one part of it. And then there's sort of like meta AI and what is meta doing with it and what are they trying to go for? I think on the first one, I mean I think across the board I'm bullish on what it can do for us. I think as we all say, with a healthy dose of skepticism, I think for sure on the first one, operational stuff, well, how do I even begin to say this? The issue I see in the landscape many times and a lot of us, you're in the space, just like I talked about, the complication of ad testing.

There is very little that differentiates a lot of creative agent or a lot of agencies now in terms of the skills, a lot of us have the same skills and so people are looking for anything they can do to message about that they're doing that's different. And AI is currently it. I mean remember the days of ManyChat it was we're the ManyChat agency or it's this little thing that doesn't actually do. And a lot of people have put their eggs in the creative basket and are saying, well, we're a creative shop, but we do add buying, which I'm not saying is bad, but a lot of people are saying that and AI is currently being used in this. And so they're saying, okay, well I have a 50 point AI framework for your agency. So I think number one, as you think about this stuff, you have to be really careful of what is that actually doing and is it creating more volume of copy or videos and are they actually productive or is it actually helping?

So that's really where my mind goes on the first part of it. On the operational side, I think that there's a lot that can happen to summarize and to look at data and help you interpret data and things that you would not have seen. So that's an interesting one. I mean watching sessions from Clarity or whatever, hot Jar or whatever where it's giving you a readout from what happened with people mean that stuff's really helpful. I think from the mind journey type creative of video, that's AI and that kind of thing. Images that are ai, I think it's okay, it's in its infancy. Some of it looks a little corny and I don't think feels genuine to it now, but people are pushing the envelope on it, which I think is good. So that's one thing on the meta AI side, what's going on there?

It's clear to me that Meta is investing in this and will continue to take more controls away from us as advertisers. The they're going to put in assets and Meta's going to decide where to put 'em, and it's going to be an Advantage plus shopping campaign and it's going to be kind of a performance Max style. The issue with that I have with this is Meta has a bad track record with allowing freedom in terms of ad placement and display. So we have a client that's running a sale right now and we turned on in Advantage while shopping campaign, the automatic optimization, well, it put the texts in all the wrong places and it cut off one of the texts and it made the ad look terrible. And the client's getting screenshots and sending it to us and saying, this looks terrible. So like I think an AI issue right out of the gates.

But there's other things. They came out and said they're, they're testing this Lattice framework where it's looking at essentially federated learnings, which are learnings across a whole bunch of accounts and they're calling it Lattice and saying, okay, here's what we know and we're matching this color background to this person because we know they respond to things in purple. So the early tests of that stuff haven't been doing anything. They've been performing way worse than anything than we've created. And so I'm not saying it's trash, I'm just saying right now it's not proving to be anything big, but it will be more. I mean, there's going to be endless options and I think you're going to have to be one, pitching your clients to be more comfortable with the changes that are taking place and with the fact that they're dynamically changing your ads often. And number two is you're going to have to be more patient because the AI is going to take some time, I think, to learn and figure that side of it out.

And I think ultimately it will be, there could be instances where it's more profitable, but it's going to, and the initial side of it when it's learning going to be really tough because you're going to be getting screenshots of your clients from the ads that look really like that don't look good. So it depends on how much customization they're doing in this too. So that's like my honest answer about ai. I I think it's a lot of people that are really excited about it. I think that's great and I'm not excited about it. And Meta doesn't have a great track recorder when it comes to this stuff. And ultimately I think about what creates more work for us as agencies. They're saying it saves us time, but if a client's blowing us up with ads that look like crap, that's not going to be good for anybody.

Brett:

That does not save you time for sure. I like the way you frame that. I'm not excited about it. And that's the why I feel about some of the AI related topics. Just got a key in on a couple points related to operational ai. I think it's really the place right now where it's all about augmenting not replacing. It's about helping you do more with less, faster, give you ideas, helping you not start with a blank canvas, that type of thing. I've got some friends who are developers and coders and they're saying, Hey, with the proper use of Chad G p t or whatever their favorite tool is, it makes them 20% faster with coding or maybe 50% faster for certain things. It helps them, if you look at a really good copywriter, maybe you're using AI to kind of get you some thought starters or to tweak things or rewrite some things.

But as I've looked at stuff that AI just creates on its own, I'm not finding subject lines that are better than what great copywriters write. I'm not seeing descriptions that are better than what great copywriters write. I know it's improving. I know it will continue to improve, but I really think it's augmenting not replacing at least so far. We'll see how it progresses. What's really interesting, and I'll be very curious to watch how meta AI unfolds and want to keep up with you on that with Google Performance Max, one of the concerns I had when I first heard this talked about a couple years ago was, man, we're not going to have any control. This is going to all be Black Box. We're just going to serve Google our assets and step away and hope for the best. Actually, you can do that. There's some ways to run Performance Max that are very much automated, but there's also quite a bit you can manipulate and quite a bit, you can move around based on the way you structure your campaigns and then also looking at performance data, changing your creatives, changing a few of the signals and things like that.

And so I think that's probably the future too, where there's, there's going to be this option where you just like, here you go, here are the keys, Google my Money, here are my assets. And same with Meta. But I think there's also going to be this way of, okay, I'm going to leverage some of the automation, but I'm still going to apply my strategies and I'm going to apply my testing framework as best as I can to this tool. And I think that's where we're going to get the best results. So far, we've had great success with Performance Max, almost across the board, but companies that are spending like 50,000 a day on Performance Max, usually it's not just one campaign that they built in an afternoon and don't think about its, it's more of a complex structure. So we'll see. Man, I, I'm bullish, but I think I may have to copy your, I'm not excited. So

Andrew:

I love that. Yeah, I mean, I think to me the practical implications of it, a performance Max. Look at, I did a webinar with North Beam a month ago with John Moran and John's talking about

Brett:

Love That dude, it's super smart,

Andrew:

Was talking about something along the lines of running a Performance Max campaign, but then running something that then suppresses a certain part of this Performance Max campaign that it actually spends in the places you want. And I don't remember exactly what it was, but the point is, I could see that happening with Meta ads. There's going to be like, yes, you're running a manageable shopping campaign and AI as part of it, but you're also then taking and creating a separate catalog or something or product catalog with things that you want to suppress or it's that kind of manipulation that I think is going to have to take place and probably will. It just remains to be seen what that'll be and how much money will be spent figuring that out. Right? I think we're sort of in this place of a lot of people during the pandemic had businesses that were running online and now we're coming through this piece of man operationally things aren't looking as good, or ads aren't performing as well, and there's less levers to pull.

And I think it's, when you think about AI and giving people, like you said, longer timeframe, if it's a $50,000 a day thing, they're going to be fine. But it's these little guys, I think about that spending 25,000 a month, they're going to be the ones that are hurt because they're not going to be able to test this, and they might not be resourced enough to know where to direct, to direct the dollars more appropriately. So that's going to be really challenging, and that's a harder place to be as a business owner, especially when all of your traffic has come from Meta,

Brett:

Totally

Andrew:

From one source.

Brett:

We know so many small businesses that they really built their brand, built their business on Facebook and maybe partially in the glory days of Facebook. And Facebook is still going strong and still working. But yeah, it will be those with smaller budgets that don't have the ability to adapt, that will be hurt the most, which really is a great reason why someone needs to get connected to a community of other smart people and learn and ready, be ready to adapt and improve. And so tell us a little bit more about the founders community. Who's a good fit for that? How do people find out more? Yeah, give us a little down there.

Andrew:

If you do digital advertising, you're an agency owner, you're in house at a brand, you're a brand owner, and you spend anything on Meta or on TikTok or on Google, it's going to be a place for you. We have the Founders community, which is the original, it's been around for two years. That's for people that are primarily spending on Meta. And a month ago we launched the PPC community, the PPC B, both the main founders membership is foxville digital.com/membership. The other one is foxville digital.com/all caps ppc. And they're, they're places that are supportive to you. We have between five and 10 calls a week that members can join, led by different members of the community on of myriad of topics. Everything's recorded, put into a database for you lives as a Slack community. You can ask anything you want. It's a safe place. It's moderated by me. I have an outsourced moderation. It's me, which is a big part of it because it's a big

Brett:

Tax,

Andrew:

It's a big job, stays high, and the quality stays high. I mean, we just asked, we just did a monthly member survey. A couple hundred members filled it out. 99.9% of the people said, yes, I'd recommend it to a friend. So that's a fit. If you're looking, you're, yeah, and big and small spenders. I mean, we have people that are spending, that are brands that are spending half a million a month just on one channel. And we have people in there that are running, their whole book of business is a hundred K spenders. And I've tried to build a community for both of those people and also running an agency and how lonely that can be. So if you feel like you need a little bit more support, then that's a good place for you.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so important because it is kind of lonely, whether you running an agency or you're serving as a marketing director or media buyer because you're going to talk to your family about changes on Meta or Google or talk to your family about, Hey man, my margins are just really down this year. It's really getting me down. It's hard to have those conversations with just anybody. You need a community like this where you can connect. So love that. I'll link to everything in the show notes. And then also Foxwell Digital. So you run an agency, talk about what services you guys offer and who is that a good fit for?

Andrew:

Yeah, I mean, we run an agency. We do meta ads for people and take on a couple clients a year. It's not a huge book for us. And we do a lot of strategic advising to agencies. We do a lot of strategic advising to brands. So if they're looking for a new advertiser, sometime we'll come in and do an audit and say, here's what we'd recommend and help them find a new partner. We've successfully placed, well, let's see, what year is it? 2020. 2023. Yeah. So I just looked at the numbers and I think it was something like 21 leads we've placed in agencies this year.

Brett:

Wow.

Andrew:

So that's a big part of what we do is playing matchmaker. And as far as I know, they're all still there. And that was part of the work, the due diligence that we're doing is checking out on it. So that's a big part of it too, is kind of that matchmaking process. And then we do this consulting with Wall Street as well, which is fascinating to talk to them about the public side of a lot of these companies and what they're doing.

Brett:

So you've got banks, you've got people on Wall Street that are talking to you on a regular basis saying, okay, give me the inside scoop, what's actually happening inside of Meta and inside these communities, because we need to know.

Andrew:

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, the best part about being a direct response advertiser always has been, is that we are always the one out there hustling, right? We are the ones that are testing everything. We're trying everything. I mean, Lord knows we'd all love to be a brand advertiser and just be doing freaking a hundred grand in video views. Right.

Brett:

How did you optimize your campaign? I turned it on. Yeah. Yeah,

Andrew:

I did. I used to actually do some of that consulting work four, three or four years ago with a brand or a, I guess a publisher that did a lot of partnerships with those brands. And it was amazing. It was so awesome. You could just turn stuff on. They just had endless budgets. But I mean, the good news about being a Dr. Advertiser is you have the look into here's what's working, here's how it's going, here's exactly why. Here's what sucks. And it turns out Wall Street's willing to pay for that. So if any of you're interested, you can go to GLG or Guidepoint or the two networks and you fill out an application and then they reach out and you can be connected basically to people on their staff. But then they send you calls and you can talk to people and they pay you for your time. Cool.

Brett:

Super cool, man. So interesting. Well love all that you're doing, Andrew, it's been an absolute pleasure to catch you up.

Andrew:

Yeah, man, thank you so much. I'm looking forward

Brett:

To that PPC community, man. I'm looking forward to hanging out a little bit with my PhD kids in there and talk. Wait. And so yeah, I'll link everything in the show notes. Do check out Foxwell Digital. He's got some courses as well if you want to learn through courses, if that's your jam. But Andrew, super fun, man. Thank you so much. Thanks. And we'll have to do it again.

Andrew:

Sounds Absolutely. Thank you.

Brett:

Awesome. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We would love to hear from you. What would you like to hear more of on the show? Do you have any suggestions, any guests that you're like, Hey, this guest has got to be on the show. I would like to know about that and hit us up. Look at me on the socials now, man. I'm more active on LinkedIn and on Twitter sort of, and would love to connect with you in the socials are on the socials as well. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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Good ads are just the beginning when it comes to growing your business. The real game-changer lies in your landing pages. They hold the key to turning visitors into loyal customers.

That's why you can't afford to miss our latest podcast episode. We've brought together two absolute legends from OMG Commerce - Matt Slaymaker and Bill Cover - to discuss their favorite landing page tips and share real-life examples.

With over $100 million managed annually in online advertising, we've witnessed firsthand the critical role landing pages play in conversion rates and return on ad spend. They hold the power to either make or break your ad performance, while also impacting your word-of-mouth and organic growth.

Here's a look at what we cover:

• How landing page improvements turned a skincare brand's ad campaign from a dud to a success.
• What good landing pages and amazing in-store experiences have in common.
• The 4 C's of a good lander.
• 5 tips for dedicated landing pages.
• Where to start - homepage, landing, or dedicated lander.
• How landing pages and ads work together to create winning (or disappointing) results.
• Our favorite landing page examples and a FREE swipe file of our favorites!

Mentioned In This Episode:

• Don't Make Me Think by Steve Krug
• Unofficial Shopify Podcast by Kurt Elster
• FIXD
• Boom by Cindy Joseph
• Overtone
• FREE Landing Page Swipe File

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO, OMG Commerce. And today, I'm not the only one from OMG Commerce on the show today, this is the OMG Experts series, and we're talking about landing pages today and product detail pages. And I could not be more excited. This is going to be practical and helpful and strategic and hopefully a lot of fun as well. So I have with me right now on the show, two legends from OMG Commerce. These guys are seasoned veterans in the e-commerce space, marketing space ad agency space. First up is Mr. Bill Covert. Bill and I go way back. He's been at OMG for seven years, which is a long time in internet years, but he's been in e-commerce for I think going on 13 years Bill, and prior to that was in the ad agency world.

So Bill, welcome to the show, I think. Thank you. Is what your third, fourth time on the show you?

Bill:

Yeah, it's at least third. Yeah, we'll go with fourth actually. That sounds better. Fourth?

Brett:

Fourth. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's at least fourth and more to come. So excited about that. And then also a return guest on the show, we got Matt, the Playmaker sleigh maker. What's up Matt Slaymaker, how are you doing? What's out [inaudible] Good, good. So Matt is one of our lead Google specialists and strategist, and he's been with us for three years, been doing marketing for seven. He is a pro with all things Google Ads, but he's done more than that too. He is worked on Facebook ads on a number of other things, and he just gets marketing and gets growth for D two C brands and same for Bill.

So Bill's a strategist, we pull him in as we're consulting with new clients and then ongoing clients Bill's always looking for opportunities to grow, to improve, to help clients reach their goals. So today we're talking about something that I think all three of us are quite passionate about, and that is landing pages, good landing pages. So let's kind of set up this way, gentlemen. Why should we focus on landing pages? Why is it so important that we get this right? And I'll let you go first, bill.

Bill:

All right, great. Yeah, thanks for having me. So when it comes to landing pages, the reason why, and I think we're going to unpack this a little bit probably as we get in here, but I would say transition brand experience and customer education. And as I was I thinking about this coming into today's podcast, I was thinking about Steve Krug's book.

It's an old one, an old e bit of goodie called don't Make me Think, which I think is self-explanatory love. And so when you get to a site, the goal for you as a brand in connection to your customer is don't make them think. Don't make them sit there and decide. Tell them where to go, what to do. Orient them who you are, order the best sellers, order the most popular. And so a well-structured landing page does that for you and for your brand.

Brett:

I love that. And my buddy Kurt Elster. So shout out to the unofficial Shopify podcast and the dynamic host, Kurt Elster, he and his partner and their business ethos cycle. They talk about picturing their customer as a drunk guy on the couch late at night, like surfing the web. And it says it's maybe a little bit of an over exaggeration, but if you think about it that way, like, hey, could someone who was intoxicated and a little bit sleepy navigate your website? If so, then that's probably simple enough because yeah, I totally agree. You don't want to make people think or you don't want to make things complex because people will just bail. They'll bounce in no shot of Covering if it's confusing. For sure. So Matt, what about you man? Why? How would you lay that out? The reason why should we focus on Yeah, creating great leaning pages. Well,

Matt:

First of all, I just want to say it's super important, like you said, to tap into that drunken and sleepy audience. They are a big buyer segment, so you got to make sure we're appealing to them. Yeah,

Brett:

Don't forget the drunk segment of your audience sitting on the couch. They're buyers because they, they're ready

Matt:

Buy

Brett:

Ready to buy. They're not thinking about price really, they're, they're ready to pull out that wallet and purchase if they can find their way.

Matt:

Yeah, to me, I think landing pages are so important because I mean, this is where obviously the sale happens and this is where you make your first impression. As it says in the name, a landing page is where somebody lands on your website. So if this is the first time somebody's ever heard of you, you've got to make a really good first impression. So obviously branding is super, super important here. But the other part is this is where we have the opportunity to test things and maximize our conversion rate. So through the landing pages, we have the opportunity to tailor our page and the content on that page to the audience that we're targeting, rather than just sending everybody to the homepage that might look the same product detail pages that are tailored a certain way. Having a landing page where we can customize it to a particular audience is super powerful and important.

Brett:

Yeah, I love it. And I think we'll share some tips as we go if you be a few product detail page tips and few homepage tips. And of course landing page tips because sometimes we do send traffic directly to a product detail page or directly to the homepage, wherever the case may be. But I love the analogy when we're thinking about a landing page or where someone shows up on your site and thinking about that just like an in-store experience. And Matt, you and I talked about this actually all three of us talked about this before we hit record. That if we think about that in-store experience, when someone first walks into the door of a brick and mortar store, what is that experience? Do they immediately know where to go? Do they have confidence that if they have a question, someone is going to be there to answer it?

Do they feel like, Hey, based on the mood, the lighting, the vibe that I'm getting, the products that I'm seeing, am I in the right place? Is this for me or is this not for me? And I'll use a bit of an example. I used to a lot of local advertising. And so you can imagine you've always got the local car dealer who's like, Hey, we're home with a fair and honest deal. And so then you're like, Hey, maybe if you're naive, you're like, Hey, maybe this is a fair and honest car dealer. So you show up at the car dealership and then you're like, wait a minute, I think this is every other car dealership guy with slicked back hairs walking out the door, khakis, fake smile, sticking his hand out. I stick my left hand and I'm not sure why, but sticking his hand out at Shake your hand, you're like, ah, I got to get out of here.

This is not the right place. Or another example in when I was in college, I worked at Lowe's, the home improvement center, and that we were one of the top rated Lowe's in the nation. We had a lot of pride in that. And there's another big box home improvement store that I actually don't think is bad at all, but the location here is not very good in our hometown. And there's always a difference to me if I go into our local Lowe's, like there's three or four people ready to help me in the different departments, whether it's plumbing or lumber, you've got a pro there handy that'll talk to you in this other box store, you can walk the aisles. I'm like, there's nobody there to help. You never get your question answered. You're not going to find what you want. And so thinking about that experience, I spent a lot of money at Lowe's. I don't ever go to this other store because of that in-store experience. And maybe the ads are just as good, or maybe the ads are even better at that other big box store. But I go to Lowe's because of the experience in the store. And I think there's just, there's so many applications we can tie in there. But what are your thoughts though, guys, when you look at landing page and comparing that to an in-store experience, any other insights or thoughts you'd share there?

Matt:

An example I'd give you is that's how I feel about Chick-fil-A. So anytime I go to that branding experience and the experience that I get from those customer service people, the sales representatives or anytime you say thank you, they're always saying, my pleasure. They've always got a smile on their face and they create this super positive experience that makes you want to come back again and again, it's more than just the chicken. That is the reason I'm going there. It's because of the overall experience that I get when I go there. And you can't say that about every fasting company. Totally.

Brett:

And then the chicken is arguably the best as far as fast food in my opinion. But you're 100% cor, correct. I can't remember a single time, and I've been to a lot of Chick-Fil-A's, spent a lot of money at Chick-fil-A. I've got a family with eight kids. And so we frequent Chick-fil-A. I can't remember going to a Chick-fil-A and experiencing a grumpy employee, I can't remember it. And maybe it's happened, but it hasn't stuck out. It's overwhelmingly positive. It's overwhelmingly fast. If you get anything wrong, they fix it. They're happy. They're saying My pleasure all the time over the top man. And it's fantastic. And that's why you can go to any Chick-fil-A anywhere in the country at 2:00 PM after the lunch rush. And you're still probably going to be a long line. You won't have to wait very long because they're efficient. But there's probably a line.

Bill:

Yeah, and just thinking about that sales rep example, we have a local water sports store where I buy wakeboards and there's lots of different kinds of wakeboards and lots of different kinds of bindings. And I'm a bigger guy, I've got a wider stance and things like that. And there's specific ones for park or there's specific ones for behind the boat sleigh maker's familiar too with these concepts. And just for the uneducated park is the water park, the ramps and stuff, because you don't want fins on that one. Totally. Right. And it's got to stand up to a few more riggers maybe. So you go in and mean even if you've been wakeboarding, if it's your first time buying nothing. And so going in, you're like, okay, these things are running like 500 bucks with the total package bindings in the board and all this stuff, and then you got to buy a life jacket and a helmet.

I mean, you're spending hundreds of dollars. And it's like, how can I get something that's entry level that I'm not going to spend too much on, but it's going to stand up to what I need it to. And you need a sales rep to help you with that. So is your landing page that sales rep or I think of if you're going to a running shoe store or something like that, you might be running on pavement, you might be running on trails, who knows? I mean it might be for something else, distance versus sprints. These all require different products and you don't want to buy the most expensive, I mean, I think we all want to get what's the bottom of the top tier somewhere in there.

Brett:

It's your maximum value. How can I get the best for the amount that I'm comfortable spending?

Bill:

Yeah, maximize value 100%.

Brett:

And one thing that I think, and I want to talk about advertising in a minute, how that ties into landing pages. But one other thing that I think is often overlooked in the space of e-commerce is word of mouth and referrals. And this is something that as we dig in with clients, more sophisticated clients, especially those that are using post-purchase surveys like No Commerce and others, they start to get a lot of feedback saying, Hey, someone referred me, my friend or family or whoever, and that's why I'm here. But you got to think about if that in-store experience or in this case the onsite experience, the landing page, the homepage product detail page, if that's not stellar, people are going to be way less likely to make that referral. And I remember back when I was in a lot of local advertising, I worked with this local printer and they were the cheapest.

They were pretty fast, but they were actually quite grumpy and they were difficult to work with. They're just like some difficulties in working with them, but they were always the lowest price. So I always used them, but I never referred to them because I was like, eh, you probably won't have a good experience. You'll probably be grumpy at the end of your day if you go with this company. But I use 'em cause I'm cheap and I'm feeling cheap right now. So there's one of those things where if you think about the landing page, yes it helps with ads and there's a big benefit there, but your landing pages also can increase or decrease or kill word of mouth. And I think that's really important to underscore here. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Matt:

Cool. So I'm a bit of a marketing nerd obviously. So I share this stuff with people who don't care. But there'll be times where I see a really cool product that has just a beautiful landing page and I'm like, look how cool this is this product. It looks so awesome. And it's not even because of the product itself, it's because of how they demonstrated what the product is and the benefits, how they communicated this. And we'll take a examples there,

Brett:

And we are a little more like that cause we're in the marketing field, we're a little more prone to share those pages, but it does happen more with anybody. They're more likely to share a page, more likely to refer if it's a great experience, if it's beautiful, if the message is clear, if it all works, they're more likely to refer. So love that. Let's talk about the relationship between advertising and landing page because we run a lot of traffic, gentlemen. We spend millions and millions a month on YouTube and Google on Amazon ads and people come to us wanting us to help them generate more customers and develop new customers. And typically the focus is on better ads, better targeting, better campaigns, all those things which are super important. But how would you talk about that relationship? Because something that is often overlooked is how are your landing pages performing?

So how would you talk about the relationship between ads and Lander and how you look at them?

Bill:

Yeah, sure. So the way I look at it is the ads job. And as a digital marketer, my job is to find a relevant audience, relevant keywords and to qualify them so I can find a relevant audience or maybe some percent of that audience that I think is relevant. Maybe there isn't purchase intent, something like that. The ads job is to then qualify that person and to have them go, okay, yeah, that's me, that's what I want. I want that now. And to have them click, whereas the landing page, his job is then to transition them and to up that conversion rate to drive the sale and to orient them from that ad click. Love that.

Brett:

Yeah. Would you add anything to that, Matt? Yeah,

Matt:

No, to put it simply, I think the goal of the ad is to reach the right people at the right time with a message and an image that compels them to want to learn more about your brand or your product. So the goal with the ad really is just to spark that initial interest, reach people who are already interested maybe in looking for this kind of stuff or like Bill said, maybe they're not even looking for this kind of stuff yet and we get in front of 'em at that stage. And then the goal of the landing page is to move them further and to drive that actual consideration and intent. And maybe that's not always somebody actually buying something. A good landing page isn't looking just for the sale. There might be other opportunities, whether it's a lead generation opportunity where people aren't ready to buy just yet that, but you can provide your email address for 20% off later on, or join a wait list for an ultimate purchase later. And then even for those people who aren't willing, they're ready to give that kind of stuff yet leaving such a positive brand impression that they want to come back later on. So I think that's what the landing pages Jo job is ultimately in the end.

Brett:

Love it. Totally agree. I think another way to say it is the job of the ad is to get the right person to click to get attention, to get the right prospect to stop and pay attention and then to get them to say maybe, right, maybe this is the product for me, maybe I want to take it a step further. And so they click and then once they get to the landing page, it's the landing page's job to do everything else to convince, to get that email sign up, to get someone to add the car, to get someone to purchase. That's the job of the landing page. The job of the ad is to get the right person to say maybe, and hopefully they come in predisposed and pretty excited and ready for your message on the landing page. But the art of closing really happens on the landing page.

And so I think that that's super important to underscore and to emphasize in this case. And so I want to give an example, and I'm curious if you guys have examples too of how this can play out. So I was working with a longtime client of ours. They sell a derma roller, so it's one of those microneedling rollers and it's got some product in it and very effective at helping reduce wrinkles and just in improving the overall glow and look of the skin. And we were running some YouTube ads and the YouTube ads were getting great engagements, so people watching the videos, people clicking on the videos way above average on all of those metrics. But the ads weren't performing, we were not hitting their cost per acquisition, target wasn't working. And so we paused for a bit and the client was like, Hey, I want to get to work on this landing page because they actually understood landing pages really well and they were like, Hey, I'm going to rework this page.

So they reworked the page and that totally changed the dynamics of the campaign. So we found a lot of people would look at that and say, well, we got to run better ads, got to run better ads, got to get better targeting, got to get, get better. But in this case, it was the job of the landing page and sometimes you could identify that when view rates are good, click through rates are good, and then conversion rates are bad, that's probably the landing page not doing its job. And so that's where you potentially need to focus. So any other examples gentlemen? Any other thoughts there on when we've identified that it was the landing page and not the ad that was the problem?

Bill:

Yes, and playing off your example real quick, just thinking of a derma roller, I don't know what that is, just because I'm in the industry.

Yes. Would've no concept of it other than I worked on brands who sell these and so are you, he's trying to hide the fact that you D roller. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there you go. You just exposed me there. I'm huge into it. I got a whole derma roller collection. Yeah. So what's your favorite brand of Derma roller? Exactly. See? Gotcha. Okay. Sorted by color. So I think when we're in our own industry, we're so jaded, we're exposed to all the ways this works, we believe in it, we're already sold. What percentage of people got to that landing page and went, do domer rollers really work? And it's like, okay, you might have the best one in the world, but what percentage? People don't even know that this category is a good idea. And are you answering those questions on your landing page or are they going to go to Google and ask?

Because once they go to Google and ask, your competitors are waiting. So totally. You just grew the category for your competitors.

Brett:

Excellent point. Yes, someone, your ad made you a beautiful job of getting attention and getting someone to click and maybe be curious, but if the landing page doesn't do its job, all you're doing is sending that prospect to go shop your competitor and to do another search and to end up somewhere else. So you're growing the category, not growing your own business, which is not the way to succeed in marketing. So what about you, Matt? Any examples or thoughts on how this plays out this role of ad and lander?

Matt:

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think you can have all the right targeting set up and beautiful ads, but if you're directing them to a page that doesn't clearly demonstrate what the value of that product is, what the differentiators are, why you should take action right now, then I don't think it's really going to matter. You're not going to see good results from that ad and from that good targeting. So an example is we have a supplements company and previously their landing pages were really core. They were essentially just product pages where the details were very minimal, so the differentiators really weren't there. Essentially all that they had were a couple lines of what the product was, so some features that came along with it and then reviews. So from there it was pretty empty. They updated one of these with the goal of this being something that they could use for a YouTube video where it focuses on one particular supplement and they added a lot of content below the fold, which was essentially talking about all the benefit, what the problem is, so why you really need a probiotic supplement, what the war inside your gut looks like, why you might be suffering from this.

Then they told the story of their brand below that too. We set out to do blank, we're different because of blank. Most prio probiotics fail because they don't have enough blank. And then they littered throughout that their social proof of testimonials, real stories from people, and we a b tested that not just for the YouTube videos but for their shopping ads as well. What if we sent people who were landing on that original probiotic page to this long form probiotic page and we saw double the conversion rates from that long form page? Wow. Because instead of just kind of answering the bare minimum of here's what it does, it then get expanded upon that and said, here's why this is important. Here are the benefits of that and here's why we're better than everybody else.

Brett:

I love that so much. I've got a couple of follow ups there, but I want to ask this question first. Just curious what your take is. Do you guys prefer longform landing pages or short form landing pages? What's say you

Bill:

Yeah, that that's a Turkey question. I am not a fan of very, very long landing pages, ridiculously long landing pages. I think a little bit, it feels disrespectful a little bit. No offense to those people out there. You probably know who you are and what I mean is just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling, going to get a lot of hate mail from long, long form landing page. Yeah, I don't think this person that I'm thinking of is offended or even I make, it's going to be a radar email too. Yeah, it's going to be really long. But what I prefer when I'm working with a client or a brand is send me something that's too long and it's way easy to, way easier to whittle it down than it is to make it longer. So I prefer that we start there. So love that, Matt. Thoughts in

Matt:

General, I don't think long is necessarily a problem as long as you're not wasting my time. If the most important information is up near the top and there's a call to action up at the top, I can take action right away and I get my answer or the questions that I have answered, then I don't necessarily mind there being additional content below there. So if that below the fold content is just additional reviews and testimonials and information about the brand that I don't necessarily mind it being long, but obviously it's something that you have to test out and like Bill was saying, it's so much easier to have something that's already long and have too much content and have to trim that down, then have to come up with more content out of thin air.

Brett:

Yeah, totally agree. And I think the right answer here is the page needs to be as long as it needs to convince someone to say yes. And I fully agree with the points you guys were making here, that it needs to be scannable. I think for those that come to your page and they're already convinced or ready, they should have an option to buy quickly. I think Bill, to your point, if someone's got to scroll through an endless landing page or they're forced to watch a 30 minute video sales letter to be able to add to cart, I know there's some strategic reasons to use that, but I always balance on those pages. I will 100% of the time always bail there. So you know, don't want to make someone scroll all the way to the end of what's the equivalent of six pages of text before they have the add to cart option, but you also need enough information to be able to convince someone.

I love an example and we'll get into a lot more here as we go, but room dividers now a former client friend, but they sell room dividers for apartment complexes and workspaces and things like that, but this is often the first time someone has ever bought a room divider when they go to this site and it's kind of confusing and new and what size do I buy and will I be able to install this? Do I need to be a builder? What is this? Their pages are amazing in terms of showing pictures, diagrams, measurements, quick videos that show you how to choose the right one, how to install it, and this would be overboard for something simple like a phone case or something like that. I don't need a lot of diagrams for a phone case, but a room divider never bought one. I'm a little bit intimidated, so give me the details but make it easy to scan because that's how people consume pages and then they look for details and they may deep dive into that interest them. And so page needs to be as long as it needs to be close the sale.

Matt:

In talking about scannable content, I think that's where visuals are so important. Yeah, they always say a picture of paints a thousand words, it says a thousand words, but you can just visually digest information through a picture much more than you can through a paragraph. And I've seen that there's studies that show that people actually remember about 10% of what they hear, 20% of what they read and 80% of what they see and do. So that's where you were saying Brett, whether it's doing videos through your landing page or visuals, that kind of stuff is so important in terms of making it easily digestible for people.

Brett:

We think and remember in terms of pictures, if I say quick think of a whale, you don't think w h a l e, right? You think of a whale, right? If I say beach, you don't think of the letters, you think of the beach and an umbrella and surfing or something like that. So we think in pictures, so we need pictures.

Bill:

My friend Todd who works with us, he sent me a Neil Patel article last night and it said that 10% of how's the man shout out to shout out to Todd, right? Smart marketer. It said 10% of people remember write no sound, but remember audio learning 20% remember something in writing and 80% remember from visual and doing. So video is key.

Brett:

I think it really is, and oddly enough, I'm one of the, I love auditory, I love listening to stories and I love podcasts.

That's probably why I'm a podcaster, but that's not the norm. People need to see and experience things that a good landing page does that. I think one last thing and then I want to get into some very specific tips. We've been sprinkling tips as we go, but I want to get into some specifics. So one additional thing to keep in mind is that people are coming to your landing page with questions, with unresolved objections. They're coming to your landing page with a healthy dose of skepticism and doubt and you've got to be ready for all of those things. I like to talk about the fact that we live in the show me state, well, bill and I are Missouri guys, a Matt's Texas guy, lots of love for Texas as well, but we're the show me state, right? And our state animal is the donkey.

So you got to show us before we'll believe anything and apparently we're quite stubborn, but you got to kind of think that way with your landing page. I have to show that these objections are not true. I have to show that this is the right solution for you. I have to overcome all of those hurdles, all that doubt, mistrust, objections that this visitor has so that they go from a maybe to a yes. So keep that in mind that people aren't just coming eager and ready to buy with the wallet out, fully convinced. I know they're coming with doubts and objections and you got to those. So awesome. Let's dive into specific tips. So lay out some of your best of your favorite landing page tips. Who wants to go first?

Matt:

Is that me? Sure. Go for Matt. All right. Yeah, great. So obviously it depends on what the goal is for that landing page. If is this a dedicated landing page, is this a product page, your homepage? Let's talk about a dedicated landing page. So I'm going to give my top five elements that I think you really need to make sure that. Can you explain

Brett:

What a dedicated landing page would be, Matt, and how we would use this? Yeah,

Matt:

A hundred percent. So a dedicated landing page is a landing page that's tailored for a specific campaign for a specific audience. So let's say that you have a top of funnel YouTube campaign where the goal of that is to use your video to reach people who've never heard of your brand before. So instead of sending people to your homepage or your product page, won't send 'em to a page that either relates to that video and that audience in some way, but portrays your brand and is focused on the product that you mentioned in that video. So it's tailored not only to the video but the audience itself.

Brett:

Awesome, thank you. So tips for your dedicated landers.

Matt:

Yeah, so I think the top five elements that you really need to have, and I'll list them all out, then go into a little bit of depth on each of those is your value proposition, your benefits and features, your branding, your differentiators, your social proof, and a strong call to action slash offer. So your value proposition is essentially just what is the point of your product, what is the value that you are going to get out of this? So if you are a company that has sells, let's just say that you are a product that helps women grow their hair back. You could just say that we are a shampoo that grows your hair back. Or you could put this in the form of a value proposition, which is really answering the what, which is the problem and the solution that they're trying to get to.

So essentially regain your confidence with our hair regrowing shampoo. So that's the value that they're really getting out of that. I think every dedicated landing page really needs to have that. The second part is benefits and features. So this really goes into the why. So what is the value that the person is getting out of the features that come with it? So if you sell an iPhone and the iPhone has a certain amount of storage space, what's the benefit of that? So the storage space is the feature, but the benefit is now you have more room for pictures and for memories and things like that, you have more apps that you can use, text messages that you can send. The third element is

Brett:

Just so quickly, Matt, some of the really great examples there, if you think back to old Apple ad campaigns, right? With the original, did we look at the iPod, right? One of the original examples, they didn't talk about the number of megabytes of storage or whatnot, but there were like 3000 songs in your pocket and I was like, this is amazing. 3000 songs in my pocket or I love the old campaign. It really I think helped launch the iPhone into kind of the stratosphere. There's an app for that. So you've got this problem, this thing, there's an app for that solved and here we'll just show you in the ad. And so yeah, really making that value prop come to life. Love, love that,

Matt:

Right? Yeah. Because in the end, features are really just what leads to the benefit and the benefit is truly what people are really after. From there you've got strong branding differentiators. So this answers the who, so who are you and what makes you different from everybody else. If you're in a crowded space, especially things like supplements for example, where there are hundreds of brands that sell probiotics or brain supplements, things like that. What is the reason that people should trust you amongst everybody else? And then the fourth element, how you can really show that is through your social proof. This elaborates on the credibility aspect of it, why should people choose? You provide things like testimonials, reviews, third party publications. So if you've been mentioned in Forbes, cnn, some of these publications out there, that kind of stuff really helps move the needle in terms of people trusting you. And then the last part of it, once they've digested who you are, what you're selling and why this is important, having a strong call to action or an offer that actually inspires them not only to take action but to take action right now. So does your call to action create that sense of urgency? If it doesn't, then people are going to leave and not maybe come back later on. So I think that's the other element you're really got to make sure you have.

Brett:

That's awesome. And Bill, I want to hear your tips in just a second, but Matt, what are some examples? Because I think we always learn better when we're looking at those who are doing this well. What are examples that we should pay attention to

Matt:

In terms of a dedicated landing page that I think does well? Yeah, so there is a company called Fixed out there. So if you go to fixed.com, you'll find this F I

Brett:

X D,

Matt:

Yeah, f i xd.com. So these guys, if you pull them up on your mobile phone or computer right now, I think they do all these elements really, really well. They do. So at the very top of the page, they have their value proposition that is super clear says meet the car Sens, meet the car repair sensor. That is saving people thousands of dollars. So instead of just saying it's a car diagnostic tool, which is just what it is, it paints that out in a very clear way. You're saving thousands of dollars. That's the value that you're getting out of this. Then in a

Brett:

Quick frame on that, just so people get the idea, like check engine light comes on, you take the fixed device, plug it into the computer port on your car, and then on your phone you get a readout of exactly why that check engine light is on, plus how much it should cost to repair it. So really answers questions for you and helps you not get screwed over later at the mechanic. So yeah, keep going man, right?

Matt:

Yeah. And from there the next thing they jump into is over 2 million fixed sensors sold 10,000 plus five star reviews. So there's your social proof, there's the credibility that they've already created. Then they get into why every driver should own a fixed sensor. So what it does, so car diagnostics like Brett just mentioned, maintenance alerts, issue severity. So it kind of shows that benefit that you're getting out of this. From there they go on to explain why they're different from other people, why you should trust them over others. But then what they do really well is they have an offer that is happening pretty much all the time. It says Shop six, shop fix today before this offer times out and they have this timer that's constantly ticking, but it's 67% off, and so they're always kind of promoting, make sure that you're getting this at the best possible deal. So you get to that page and you have that sense of urgency to go ahead and buy right then and there, which I think they do really, really well.

Brett:

Love it. Great example. We'll need to have the show notes, but go check it out for yourself@fixed.com. Bill, what about you? Top landing page tips.

Bill:

All right, sweet. You bet. So I would love to turn all of these into Cs at some point, but I have connect, so how does it change their life? Connect with the customer and where they're at and psychologically understand their pain point and address that and say, look, I get it. This is what you're going through. Here is how we help. I mean, it could be a very simple product. They have a pain point content. So I think dream big. Imagine what your brand can be, what your landing page could look like. I think some of the most awesome landing pages are just very visual and give me a great brand impression and a great brand impression. Gives me a great product impression and I want to identify with that product brands like that.

I think Peloton has amazing landing pages and they do the connect thing as well. If you are living in an apartment in a high rise, it's a big deal to have to get up, go down the elevator and go to the gym in the morning. Whereas you could have a Peloton just in the corner, you could wake up and you can do your whole workout routine with an instructor right there. You don't have to go to the gym. They make that very obvious, here's your pain point, we're the solution, and then call to action. So not just certainly tell them what to do, you may think it's obvious, it may not be obvious, but also what are the steps? What are the next steps? One thing, example would be the Goldie Locks Purple Mattress YouTube ads, love it. Next time you see the eggshell test ad, click and look at that landing page and look how it matches the ad and also watch they show you what this is.

When it arrives at your door, this thing is going to arrive in a box that looks like this. If you don't like it, here's what you do. So it answers all these questions. It walks you through yourself having bought this product vicariously.

Brett:

Yeah, it kind of leads you through the process, right? I heard this great marketing analogy one time that people will not go physically where they haven't gone in their mind burst or where they haven't imagined themselves going. And I think that's what that page does. It shows, hey, this is what it's going to be like when it shows up in your doorstep and when you open the box, it's going to look like this because there's some unknowns. There's still some people out there that are a mattress shipped to me. Is this going to be like a giant box? Can I get it through my door?

Is it going to be, it's going to be messed up, damaged. That is a hurdle that will keep people from buying. But once they see that, okay, actually the box is not huge, it's all air compressed and then it puffs out. Once you open it, then they feel confident and say, okay, yeah, this makes sense.

Bill:

Yeah, they also took the risk away from the buyer by saying, if you're not happy, put it back on the porch. You don't have to put it in the box. We'll do that, put it back on the porch and call us.

Brett:

Which I love that too, because that's the other thing. And then sometimes why I don't buy things or what gives me hesitation from buying things on Amazon. I know Amazon will take it back. I know I can return it. I don't want to. I've got stuff in my house that I knew I wasn't going to use, but I'm like, ah, it's too much words to return.

This who sits in my closet, or I give it away to somebody, which is fun, but that creates a hesitation. If I don't want this mattress, you mean I got to box what I got to compress it and box it up? No, just put it on the porch. We'll take care of it. Love that.

Bill:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The next tip would be trip wires. I think anyone who's doing a quiz is doing this. So something short of a purchase that I can do to segment those who were very interested. And now with GA four, maybe that's just in GA four, okay, they looked at this, they looked at five products that were all the color of red or something, and you can just track that as an event. But if you're doing a trip wire, like a quiz, then they're serious, they're curious, they, they're bounce, but they just didn't purchase yet.

So now we've isolated that group. We can go after that group with better messaging and okay, why didn't you buy? Maybe you need a sale. Maybe you had an objection or an FAQ or something like that. And then avoid paralysis by analysis. So don't give me one product unless you sell just one product, unless there's one obvious hero product. Give me three products or maybe some product categories guide me. Remember that sales rep like, Hey, what's the most popular? That's where I want to go. Don't make me think, don't give me 30 products. Give me a reasonable amount for what you sell and what your brand is and your category. And okay, I'll figure it out from there.

Matt:

And speaking about guiding me, I think that's another benefit that comes from the quizzes that you just talked about. So the obvious benefit of the quizzes, ultimate obviously when they go through all the options, they fill out all the questions at the end, it'll ask for their email address and that's where you send them the result. So the brand gets the email address and the user gets the result. But the other benefit of that is you're guiding the user to a product that is best for them based on the results that they gave. So I know there's this skincare brand called Curology that's a huge part of their system. They really just make custom skincare routines. So based on the inputs that you put in, do you have greasy, oily skin? Are you prone to acne? Things like that, what are you looking for? They're going to send you a bundle that is tailored just to you. I've seen this work for supplements companies, hair care companies as well. What are you looking for? What color is your hair? Things like that. And it tailors and guides the user to what is going to be best for them, which obviously helps the brand in terms of getting the user to the product that they're most likely to buy, but also helps the user because it's getting them a product that's most likely to best work for them. So

Brett:

Yeah, I love that example of quizzes and guiding someone to the right choice. And I think one of the tips that I would have, and actually I've got four and they all actually do start with the letter C bill, how crazy is that? But one of them is confidence. We've got to instill confidence in the shopper before they're going to make a purchase. And I love the example of Madison Reed and for former client, but we help them grow on Google and YouTube, but they are at home hair color. And so they've got this quiz, it's like a personal hair care consultant. And this is a very important thing. I've a lot of ladies in my family that color their hair and this is not something to take lightly. It's not like, yeah, I'll just try this if turns my hair. Weird color, no big deal.

Some people do want a crazy color and that's awesome, but they want the color they want and they don't want to get this wrong. And that's why a lot of people go to the salon and pay hundreds of dollars for the coloring. But at Madison Reed you can get it refresher the price and you do it at home, but they've got this color consultant, you take the quiz and it's very thorough, but it's still easy to fill out. And at the end, not only are they increasing satisfaction by delivering the right product, but they're giving you confidence in the process to say, ah, I was just asked the right questions and now I'm confident that what is going to be delivered to me is going to be right. And so then people actually make the purchase. So I love that.

Bill:

Now's how you've got visibility into that customer group.

And this could be a whole nother podcast on segmenting your cohorts, but yes, now it's like, okay, so you're male and you have dark hair, now I know how to talk to you.

Brett:

And so exactly, all kinds of segmentation there. If they don't purchase now, you know how to remarket to them. Or if they have their email now you know how to email them. You so many benefits there. Another thing, and you really alluded to this bill, but I'm going to kind of clarify maybe just a little bit, but congruent. I think the experience need to be congruent where if you made a promise or an offer on the video or on the display ad, in the display ad that you created, that needs to be front and center on the landing page. If you're talking about a holiday promotion or a Mother's Day promotion, that needs to be clearly visible.

If you had a look and a style and a tone in the video, that look and style and tone needs to be on the landing page because the first thing someone's going to say just like when they walk in the door of a retail store is, am I in the right place? And so you got to have that congruent experience between ad and landing page. And then I think that the two other Cs that I'll just throw out really quickly is it needs to be convincing. It needs to overcome those objections and really handle anything that's lingering or any objections to buy. And it needs to be compelling. It needs to promise that benefit, bring all those things to life enough to make someone say, yes, I'm going to purchase. Awesome stuff. Guys, this has been amazing. Just a couple of quick things here as we get close to wrapping it up.

Where do you usually suggest people start, right? So we run a lot of YouTube traffic, a lot of search traffic. Google shopping are now more performance max. But where should someone start? Should they start by building dedicated landing pages? Should they start by optimizing their product detail pages? Should they work on their homepage? What advice or what thoughts do you guys have there?

Bill:

That's a great question. So yeah, it's kind of recommending a supplement to someone who doesn't exercise and doesn't sleep supplement. Should I pay? Well, tell me what you were trying to do, but you got to do the basics. So if your homepage needs work, I mean, go after that. Go after the product page, do the lowest hanging. It's always going to be the most ed page, right? It's always going to be, yeah, page, get yourself a video going. A dedicated landing page is third, fourth, somewhere even further down the list.

Do the basics. But then by that time, you've got enough content and enough to kind of pull from these assets and it's like, okay, the U G C, the FAQs, the video, the banner header. And I would say also I come from e-commerce development and we talk about minimal minimum viable product and working iteratively. I've met, I have friends who worked for two years on their store and didn't launch it, and I'm like, why? Oh, there's a misspell over here. I'm like, are you kidding me? Get that thing out there and start generating revenue and iterate as you go. Just write. I don't just go to chat G p T and have that thing. Write your landing page and prop it up and then start to, I'm not I, that was an exaggeration. Do a little more than that, sorry. But just start to get something out there and then start to plug in your assets and get traffic to it and test and things like that. So work iteratively, but just start with copy, then get some images in there and get a video in there and go from there. I like it. What about you, Matt?

Matt:

Yeah, no, I totally agree with what Bill said. It doesn't have to be absolutely perfect when you launch it. The important thing is that you're just in the initial stage is starting to collect some data and like Bill said, you can iterate from there and you can ab test from there. Maybe you have the version, but then you spin up a secondary version where you split traffic 50 50 and you see what version does better. Maybe that original version that you thought wasn't as good as this next page is actually performs better than that new page does. So it's always something that you can be testing. But in terms of where to start as it comes to homepage, product pages, dedicated landers, I agree with what Bill said, and you alluded to Brett, your homepage is always going to be your most visited page, not just on the ad side most often, but all your organic traffic is tending to go to your homepage, your direct traffic, when people type in brand name.com, that's usually going to your homepage.

So I'd really think you got to start there. From there, I'd make sure your product pages look good, because shopping ads, performance max ads, a lot of this is going to be driving to your product pages and that's where the bottom of the funnel and middle of funnel traffic really lives. And I'd like to start from there. Establish a firm foundation and then at that point develop your dedicated landers where your YouTube top of funnel traffic can send potentially your remarketing traffic. Search traffic can go to those pages as well. But start with the low-hanging fruit, like you guys said.

Brett:

That's awesome. And so I'll give just a couple examples here of pages that I think you should check out. And then we're going to talk about a free resource that is in development right now, but by the time you listen to this, it'll be available. So Matt talked about dedicated landing pages later. That's the pages you use for top of funnel Facebook or YouTube traffic love Boom by Cindy Joseph and their five makeup tips for older women. We've sent literally tens of millions of dollars worth of ad traffic to that page and it's Covered. And so it's very simple. Starts with five makeup tips for older women and then has some celebrity social proof and some other social proof and then great offers. And it's a brilliant page, so we'll link to it. You should definitely check that out. Actually, I think the celebrity has been removed.

Yeah. Oh, you're right. The celebrity has been removed, but they did have a celebrity, and I don't can't say it, but there may be a celebrity there or there was a celebrity there who was very well known. And yeah, she was on friends. She was on Lisa Cdre or Courtney Cox, if that helps. And I may or may not have had a monster crush on her as a teenager when I was watching that show Totally places. I know you're my age. It does. But I also, Monica, I thought all three friends were amazing. So yeah, great. Dedicated later should definitely check it out. And when it comes to homepage, I'll shout out another one that that's owned by Ezra Firestone, overtone coloring conditioner. So if you want your hair pink or blue or green, this is color depositing conditioner that's temporary. Their landing or their homepage is beautiful.

It answers all the questions. It shows the product. It's got social proof, it's got all the elements we really just talked about, which is a great one. And then we're going to link to a bunch more because I know one, you're potentially driving or working out, and so you can't capture all of these. But let's talk this free resource. Fellas, all three of us have been collaborating on this. It's going to be Dino Mite, but what is our free resource Bill? You want to kind of plug this real quick?

Bill:

Yeah, you bet. So we are offering with this podcast a swipe file of our favorite landing pages. So these aren't necessarily ones that we work on, brands that we work on, but just showcasing anything we've seen over the years on the internet, students of landing pages, great branding and getting people from, I've never heard of you two, I want to buy right now. Yeah. And a number of these are clients. I think we have worked with them and help them grow their, they're marketing, but a of just people we shop and love and admire and respect. And so anything else you would want to say about this? Matt? Plug this resource. I mean, Matt, the Playmaker s slave maker had a hand in this guide, in this swipe file. So I think people should get it for that reason alone. Absolutely.

Matt:

No, I think just to go along with what Bill said, it covers every industry and it covers every need. So whether you're looking for product pages, how can you improve your product pages, dedicated landing pages, your homepage, it covers all those. And then depending on your different goals, so if your goal for your campaign is to drive sales, there's landing pages that cover that. If your goal is to drive lead submissions, like the boom example that Brett was talking about, there's really good examples for that as well. So regardless of what industry you're in, business size, things like that, there's an example for you.

Brett:

Yeah, so check it out, request that you can go to the show notes of this show or also look on the guidesPage@ogcommerce.com and you can find the landing page, swipe file and guide. And just a closing thought here as we wrap up. I think there's very little that can change the math and change the results of your advertising, of your campaigns, like a landing page, if your conversion rates are not great, and e-commerce standards are in that one to 3% range. Typically, brands that are really scaling have landing pages that Cover a little bit higher than that. But it does depend on a number of factors. If conversion rates are not great, focus on those landing pages. It will pay off in spades. And when you get it all working together, awesome ads, great targeting, great campaigns, end landing pages, then that's when the magic happens.

So Any closing thoughts, gentlemen?

Bill:

Sure. Yeah. So one closing thought. Make sure to understand. I said at the beginning, your client, or sorry, your client, your customer's pain point and understand their skepticism. I think FAQs are kind of a commodity. We think, oh, faq, that's just the throwaway thing at the bottom with the accordion interactivity there. But think about that. People have a reason they almost aren't going to buy from you. I've even seen on a jeans website after purchase the question, the post-purchase questionnaire, why did you almost not buy? And it's like, whoa. That's a great question. Yeah, love that. That's a bold question. But you're getting these questions through your chat on your onsite chat, and that's stuff, if you're getting these questions, collect them and figure out the common questions and then figure out the answers because your customers have these questions. And that can be just right there on the landing page.

Matt:

Yeah, I'd say when thinking about the value of landing pages, think of what is the value of improving your conversion rate from 3% to 5%. That could be the difference of 3 million of revenue to $5 million in revenue. So the best brands that we work with in terms of success are the ones that are constantly iterating and constantly moving the needle and trying new things in terms of landing pages. So whether it's AB testing, their homepage, their product pages, they're always testing some element, whether it's new images, videos, copy length, things like that. So don't be afraid to dive in and don't put it on the back burner. Don't think that this isn't really all that important or that you really just need to be focusing on the ads. All that is really important. But like we talked about earlier, you can be reaching all the right people with all the right ads, but if you're not sending 'em to a page that is likely to Cover them, it's not going to matter that much in the end. So

Brett:

True, true. Thank you, gentlemen. Awesome stuff. Much appreciated. And hey, we would like to hear from you. If you got a couple minutes, we'd love that review on iTunes or wherever you consume podcasts and or shoot us a note, man. It would make our day to see a note from our amazing listeners. And so with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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Khierstyn Ross has made a name for herself by successfully launching products and brands on Kickstarter. However, the crowdfunding landscape has significantly changed in recent years, particularly on Kickstarter. It is NOT the same world it was in 2019.

While the barrier to entry for launching a successful project has become higher, it's still a good fit for many clients.

In addition to helping brands on Kickstarter, Khierstyn is also a pro at helping companies grow on Amazon. She's mastered the art of launching new products and pre-sells on Amazon.

Here's a look at what we cover:

• What products do well on Kickstarter, and what products usually flop?
• What kind of $ do you need to invest for a successful Kickstarter launch?
• When to launch a new product on Shopify vs. Kickstarter.
• How to build a brand on Amazon.
• What kind of results should you expect when launching on Kickstarter?

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• Launch and Scale
• Khierstyn Ross (LinkedIn)
• Khierstyn Ross (Twitter)
• Brett Curry (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (Twitter)

‍

Transcript:

Brett:

Hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and today we have a return guest on the show and we're talking about what's new, what's working with Kickstarter launches, and also deciding to even want to do a Kickstarter launch because they're not just for people who are brand new or brands that are brand new. They can also be effective for brands that are mostly built on Amazon and want to build off of Amazon. And so can talk about lots of strategies and ideas and fun stuff. My guest today is Khierstyn Ross and she is the chief brand builder at Launch and Scale Launch and scale.co. And she's been on the show before. It was so much fun. I had to have her back. It's been like, it's been three years though, right? Khierstyn has been three years since we chatted last on the podcast.

Khierstyn:

I think so. It feels like yesterday. Yes. But I know you're one of my favorite podcasters, so I'm very excited for her

Brett:

Today. Awesome. We appreciate that. And we actually got to, so yeah, and the interview was maybe three years ago, but last year we got to hang out I r l as they say, as the kids like to say, in real life at Cap Con five, shout out to Ryan Daniel Moran. So that was cool getting to see each other in person. I know. But man, a lot has changed. A lot has changed since that first interview and what works and what doesn't. On, on Kickstarter, would you want to give a quick update? What, what's shifted, what's changed? What's working or not working on Kickstarter today compared to in the past?

Khierstyn:

Man? I mean everything and nothing is the same. Yes. I remember if you're watching this and you have heard me talk about Kickstarter in the past, you'll know I was like, everyone should do Kickstarter. And that I think was like 20 19, 20 20. And now that we're recording this in 2023, I've actually gone public to say that most people shouldn't be using Kickstarter. And I think that's a good follow up, a comment.

Brett:

It's a bold to say when you built your, I know you guys do a lot more than Kickstarter now, but you got to build your agency on Kickstarters. That's a pretty bold thing for you to state.

Khierstyn:

Yeah. But I guess the reason I did that was because I got to a point, I think it was November, 2022 or 21 that I went public on my birthday to say, I'm leaving Kickstarter. And that doesn't mean I don't do Kickstarter campaigns, but it was a bold statement because I felt that for the last few months we kept launching products based on the Kickstarter success formula products that should have worked. And late in 20 20, 20 21, we weren't seeing the kind of success with our students that we should have been seeing. We would be building the audience the way that you're supposed to. We would be doing engagement campaigns, we would be making sure they were great products. And Kickstarter campaigns for new brands started to not do as well as they used to. And that started me asking the question of, is it me? Is it us or it has something changed in the market?

So I ended up going public because I discovered that as Kickstarter has evolved over time, it's gone through some astronomical changes in how it's originally supposed to be used. And Kickstarter, for those that aren't familiar with it, it's the world's largest crowdfunding platform. And crowdfunding on Kickstarter means that you have brands like new sellers or existing brands that want to use Kickstarter as a platform to launch new products and get pre-order sales from backers or Kickstarter audience. Kickstarters become one of the prime methods of funding new products because it gives you a chance to get your inventory paid for without having to fund it yourself, which is like that right there. Sign me up.

Brett:

But yeah, it's this weird dynamic too, and I know I've got lots of friends that have done this where successful brand you, but they're launching a new product, takes quite a bit of capital to launch certain new products. And so they launch on Kickstarter, they get this, all these preys and I can fund the development and whatnot. And for whatever reason, people love the idea of funding a Kickstarter or some people do way more than doing a pre-buy on other websites or, I know it depends, we'll talk about the nuances there, but yeah, in some respects, people are more willing to do that pre-buy on Kickstarter than elsewhere depending on a few factors.

Khierstyn:

Well, what's interesting is that Kickstarter campaigns have new products that aren't available anywhere else. So the difference with the Kickstarter traffic that you're getting is you have all these early adopters that are perusing the website for really cool innovative things that are not available anywhere else. And they're willing to take that chance even though there's a risk, they may not get their product for a couple of years. The, there's just something about being a Kickstarter backer and helping fund someone's dream. And

Brett:

You feel like you're an investor, right? You're committing buying something because you believe in it and you almost feel like you're an investor and yeah, you don't want it tomorrow or anything. You are, yeah, you're part of something bigger and something cool,

Khierstyn:

But there, there's just something special about that. And so Kickstarter's a really fun platform. You get high off the success of Kickstarter campaigns and doing it, but what has happened with Kickstarter, because it's such an attractive model for small businesses for financing without trading equity, is that it became this really, really oversaturated platform. And so you get to the point where with Kickstarter, there's so much attention for new products, for eyes, for launches that your product starts to get buried on their platform. And when you look at the strategy behind how to win on Kickstarter, you need to have the algorithm kind of pick up your project as a popular project and start to show you to more people. So if you're a Reddit user, it's kind of getting upvoted so that your post doesn't get buried in hundreds of other ones that'll never get seen by be one of the top ones.

It's the same sort of thing with Kickstarter. So when you look at the strategy that goes into setting yourself up for success, you need to have a pre-launch, which means you need to go in with an email list full of people ready to buy your product so that when you go live on Kickstarter, you have a really strong day one, and then Kickstarter's algorithm is going to be like, Ooh, that's a popular project. We should show this to more people. And then that's when you start to get traction and go viral. But the problem is when you have a platform that has become oversaturated, become so competitive, it means that what you as a creator have to put into your launch goes a lot higher. It means that the Firestone

Brett:

Fair to entry is much higher. You're competing in the big leagues, it's professional stuff now.

Khierstyn:

So layman's terms more competition, way more expensive to get started, way more expensive to get started. Suddenly you are risking capital for inventory and it means the price to play may not actually be worth it because a lot of campaigns end up leaving Kickstarter not able to buy their own inventory, which is a self-fulfilling problem because what if you do all this work, you're literally putting your startup at risk. So it's like it's a problem where we've seen campaigns just not hit the levels they want because that barrier has just been so high. So

Brett:

When you say someone's leaving Kickstarter, then are they going to a place like Indiegogo if that, I don't even know. I'm not paying attention to the space. What else are they doing if they're not launching on Kickstarter?

Khierstyn:

So if you're not launching on Kickstarter, Indiegogo is their little brother. So that's definitely a good possibility if it's a product fit. But typically what we do is we help people decide whether the crowdfunding model is right for them or if they just want to take a less risky approach and go to their own website. So we end up having a conversation with people who are like, look, if you're not Kickstarter, let's launch you on Shopify or even go straight to Amazon. But typically for us, we do brand building on Shopify if not,

Brett:

And I think that's the way to go. And what you and I were talking about for a lot of brands, a lot of companies, you and I were talking before we hit record, you're working with a number of brands where they've built their business on Amazon, they're 80 to 90% Amazon now they're wanting to build off of Amazon. And so in that case, you could look at something kickstart related, but likely Shopify. So I want to spend a little bit of time there because there was a period of time in OMGs growth where our agency, we were getting a ton of leads of people who said, Hey, we're 2 million, 3 million, 5 million, whatever brand on Amazon, but we need to diversify. We're nervous of having all our eggs in the Amazon baskets. We want to launch on Shopify. That's not always that easy though, right? There's like a different mindset, different pricing approach, different marketing model, different everything on Amazon versus your own store. So how do you help an Amazon brand or someone who's largely on Amazon, how do you help them achieve success off Amazon? And how do you navigate that Shopify versus Kickstarter discussion? Oh

Khierstyn:

My God, you've opened a can of worms here. Yeah.

Brett:

Yes. Sorry. That makes for good radio, good podcasting there.

Khierstyn:

Amazon sellers are, and this is just a blanket statement, but the way to be successful in Amazon is have a good product that has high enough search volume that you can use PPC to target certain keywords to get people who are what we call high intent, who, for example, I go to Amazon because I'm looking for magnesium supplements. So I am looking,

Brett:

These are really popular now, by the way. Yes. A couple years ago, I never heard anybody talk about magnesium, and I'm a supplement guy. I take all kinds of crazy weird stuff that I experiment with where it's at. But the magnesium train that's that bandwagon I should say, has really been picking up steam lately. So what are the benefits? Why are you taking magnesium? Quick side note here.

Khierstyn:

So I take magnesium because I train for triathlons and I Oh, wow, find that my muscles really tense up without magnesium. And so mag, there's something about the magnesium that helps my body, my muscles relax. And it's like, for example, I have this chronic pain on my shoulder here when I'm biking for longer than 60 minutes, and for some reason when I take magnesium, my muscles relax and I don't have that level of tension again. So

Brett:

Crazy. So there you've heard it here, folks. If you're training for a triathlon, get magnesium. So there you go.

Khierstyn:

Yeah, it's great. That was awesome memory, great four sleep mean, but there's also different kinds of magnesium depending on the purpose you want.

Brett:

Yeah, that's what I've seen. We've got a couple of big things of it. My wife bought some for our daughters, which has a special purpose. I don't know what it is, but yeah, I've taken a little bit of it and it also seems like I have a bit of a calming effect as well, potentially.

Khierstyn:

Yeah. Yeah.

Brett:

Awesome. Well, people didn't tune in to hear us talk about magnesium, but fun little. I've loved that little wrap rabbit trail there, so that that's good. But yeah, so you were talking about someone who sells on Amazon, they're dependent on search volume. Is that still how people discover products on Amazon by search? And so people go to Amazon searching for something. So you mentioned going there for magnesium, so I'll let you pick up the story there.

Khierstyn:

I go to Amazon, I search magnesium supplements for athletes or whatever, and it takes me to 10 pages. I scroll through the first five listings, I look at reviews, et cetera. I look at ingredients and I decide that's someone who's called a, it's high intention because I'm going there for something very specific, typing in keywords, finding a product based on ads and purchasing it because of social proof. That's it. The seller on Amazon generally, unless if you have a backup strategy, you're not collecting the customer information, you have no relationship with the customer, potentially this magnesium supplement is something that's not even a custom formula that you've created. It can potentially be white label that you've just slapped your own label on, and it's a commoditized product. There's no differentiation outside of that. Not all Amazon products are like that, of course, but that's typically what I see the Shopify seller. Typically where they thrive is, and this is why I kind of have beef with a lot of drop shipping products because drop shipping products are just one of a thousand that everyone else is selling and there's no differentiation. Totally.

So the first thing we need to look at in terms of getting success on Amazon is how have you differentiated yourself? Shopify products are very different because it's direct to consumer, meaning you need to sell based on a relationship. So you're starting to build your email list, you're starting to differentiate yourself through focusing on a specific customer through helping feel people emote. What does that mean? Getting people to feel something when they're using your product? There's just a whole different kind of psychology that goes into it because it's really the difference between you ordering on Uber Eats your dinner versus you going into a restaurant and getting served by having the relationship with the waiter and hearing about the story of how the restaurant got started and the experience of it. It's like, am I making sense?

Brett:

Totally. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And what's really interesting, and then we consult with a lot of Amazon brands as well, or people that are building brands on Amazon, off Amazon. And I think really the path to success now to, regardless of where you're selling is you've got to build a brand, you have to, that's it, differentiate. There has to be some personality to your brand, and there's still money to be made just by succeeding off of all the search appointments on Amazon and people trusting Amazon and not knowing your brand. But really I think that's short lived, and then I think it's really hard to then go off Amazon in that case. And yeah, one thing, I actually posted this on Twitter earlier this year. I said, Hey, if you had to build a brand right now, would you start on Shopify or would you start on Amazon?

And why? And it was heated, man. There was people, it was like 50 50 split people you knowing and debating and hurling insults at each other and mashing of teeth and all kinds of stuff, like deciding which is better. But it really depends, I think, on what your skillset is. I think if you can build a brand on Shopify first and you can attract those customers and build a following and then go on Amazon, that's even better. But not everybody has that skillset. But really I think what you're also saying is, but if you do launch on Amazon first, you still got to build that brand building skillset to have any success off of Amazon.

Khierstyn:

Yeah, because I think there's really, you can go both ways, but if it were me, I would do exactly what you said, launch on Shopify and then go to Amazon. Because if you're a new seller, new product, I want to understand if I have three star reviews on my product, I want to understand how much my customers love and do a controlled experiment, get that feedback, and then go to Amazon for round two, because I have to make sure that I have

Brett:

When you're there, reviews. Yeah.

Khierstyn:

And if you go to Amazon with a subpar product ev for a new product, and that's listing goodbye three stars, you're not selling anything.

Brett:

Totally. Totally. So that's awesome. So then as you're kind of having that discussion with somebody, when does it make sense for someone who's selling on Amazon to then use Kickstarter as one of their first things off Amazon? Well, when does that make sense?

Khierstyn:

Yeah. So there's different levels. The timer we've taken Amazon sellers to Kickstarter are twofold. One is when they already have a thriving Amazon business in one space and they decide to launch a new brand on Shopify. So they're starting for a new brand and they want to launch it on Kickstarter. We did this with Kelly Waits where they were multiple seven figure seller in one spa in strength training and stuff like that. And then they launched Fitness Bengals for women. They wanted to create a brand around that. So they went to Shopify to launch that. We did that with another Amazon seller who saw a new product market for, and I thought he was crazy when I first talked to him because he was launching a beard straightener for men. And I was like, he's a

Brett:

Straightener. Interesting.

Khierstyn:

And being an Amazon seller, he was so an he's so analytical, and he was like, look, we've done the research. Thousands of men buy women's hair straighteners to straighten their beer because there's nothing available. And so he sold me. I was like, okay, well, clearly I'm not your demographic, but he took, well, he again had a thriving Amazon business and decided to go to Kickstarter to launch ABER Light Pro, the new beard brand. And so that's like case one Amazon seller knows the ropes, wants to build a brand. We also have the other side where you have an Amazon seller that gets on Amazon and is ready and is profitable, has a kind of figured out and wants to then become available on Shopify, and they start to do a brand extension to start going multi-channel by building out their email list, their customer relations, getting super clear on their avatar, et cetera.

Brett:

Nice. And so let's talk about that a little bit. You know, talked about the barrier to getting launched on Kickstarter has gotten harder. Yeah. Well, let's say I'm, I've got a brand and I'm launching a new product and I want to use Kickstarter. What kind of email list am I needing to build? What kind of sales volume or interest volume am I going to need to get in that first one to two days or whatever, whatever that timeframe is? What does that look like now?

Khierstyn:

So if you're a new brand and you want to invest the money, we are working with a factory right now out of China that is building a North American brand, super cool case study. And I did the hard sell, not to do Kickstarter for them, but they're like, look, we want to raise $250,000. We have the capital, we want to do Kickstarter. I was like, cool. All right, you've passed all the tests, let's go. So getting them to do quarter million dollars, we are building their list up to about 10 to 15,000 people from zero.

Brett:

From zero, largely through Facebook ads, Instagram ads, things like that.

Khierstyn:

We're doing TikTok to Google, Facebook, but our top of funnel activities are going to be your Facebook, Instagram with remarketing. But anyway, so say 10 to 15,000 people on the list, building a social media following with that. And if we assume that our cost per lead is about $2 50 cents pre-launch for a qualified lead, then that is going to yield us about, on the first 36 hours, we want to be hitting about 20% of our overall goal. So I don't know what the math looks like,

Brett:

So Well, 20% of two 50 is 50. Yeah.

Khierstyn:

Yeah. Well, there you go. Yeah. Math is not my strong suit.

Brett:

Calculators are four and computers and all this,

Khierstyn:

And I'm charging my phone. But yeah, that's like we work backwards and we have a full cash flow forecast that we essentially after doing a, we'll do a market test before we onboard someone for a full launch. And based on that, we establish what the cost per lead is and then use that to build out a full launch projection in a marketing budget. So you can say, all right, if you want to go for 250,000 for a raise, this is what your list has to be. These are the average conversions we're expecting and this is what that expected investment's going to be. So

Brett:

Nice. Nice. Got it. Okay. But man, that's pretty good though. So you're getting leads, you're getting email captures for $2 and 50 cents. Yeah. So you're spending 40 K or whatever the case may be to get 15,000 email addresses, and that's enough then to get you started on Kickstarter. Yes. And then really the Kickstarter machine, the algorithm getting listed and stuff, that's what takes care of the rest basically.

Khierstyn:

And if you look at the breakdown of a hundred percent of funds at that volume, you're expecting Kickstarter's audience and give you about 20 to 30% of your total pledges. And then the rest come in from pre-launch if you're using an amplification service like gel op to advertise your campaign to their backer audience, it's pr, it's word of mouth, et

Brett:

Cetera. What was that? Wait, what was that tool you just used? I'm not familiar with that

Khierstyn:

One. I also gel OP is

Brett:

Gel op. How do you spell that? Yeah,

Khierstyn:

J E L L O P.

Brett:

Got it. So you can market your launch on that, and then you got influencers and people that may grab ahold of that and start promoting it and talking about it and stuff. So

Khierstyn:

I love Jello because the results just speak for themselves, but they are a marketing agency that specializes in Kickstarter launches. But the difference is that where we are a marketing agency that helps people build up for a successful Kickstarter campaign by doing the pre-launch, the marketing, we start the fire, and then J Op is a great, what I call an amplification service because in exchange for say 15% of the pledges that they bring in, they're going to take over as your Facebook advertisers and market your project to their database in exchange for a commission.

Got it. With that. Got it. So we tend to, because if you really look at how Kickstarter marketing companies are built, a lot of them take, and it's completely varies, but they'll take 10 to 20% of your raise total because they're marketing your project to this huge backer community. And a lot of the big agencies have that. And I decided early on that I didn't want to be doing that. So we would rather just come in and help people start the fire and partner up with a company like Jup during the launch if a company wants to take it to that next level.

Brett:

Nice. Nice. Very cool. Yeah. Okay, great. And then do you ever do a combo where you're doing some stuff on Kickstarter, some stuff on Shopify? If so, what does that look like?

Khierstyn:

Yeah, so not at the same time. Kickstarter is very clear that they can be the only place that you're selling the product. Got it,

Brett:

Got it.

Khierstyn:

But what that will look like is if you do a Kickstarter launch, you can then after your 30 or 60 day campaign finishes, you can continue pre-orders on Shopify.

Brett:

Nice.

Khierstyn:

Okay. You want to do that.

Brett:

Are there times in when you just recommend, Hey, let's just do a big pre-launch on Shopify, and I know you don't get the boost of all the eyeballs that are on Kickstarter. Maybe you can't use gel up in that case and stuff, but when do you advise someone just to do your next product launch on Shopify, even if you're trying to get a lot of pre-orders and maybe even trying to fund the product development and stuff?

Khierstyn:

Yeah, great question. The questions I ask to make sure if Kickstarter is the right fit for someone versus Shopify is the first step I look at is the product. So more and more now you have to look and see if you're essentially launching products around for the Kickstarter audience. So because you're in large part needing to make sure that you're getting a huge 20% of your pledges come from Kickstarter, so you should make sure it's a product fit for them. So I look at that and if I'm like, okay, design projects, tech, gaming, those tend to be the big categories. So if it's a product fit and has a great track record on Kickstarter, Kickstarter can be an option. Cool. Question number two, what are you wanting to invest in doing a launch? Okay, so that's where when we looked at the numbers of say the factory that is spending $60,000, $70,000 in pre-launch between the video ad spend, marketing fees, et cetera, to yield 250,000, they're willing to pay that price because they want the big social proof, they want the big list. But I tell that to eight out of 10 entrepreneurs and they can't stomach that,

Brett:

Right? So that's a big investment because there's no guarantee you'll build the right size list. So no gear, there's no guarantee it'll get funded. So it's a pretty big chunk of capital to put out there.

Khierstyn:

Yeah. So that's question number two is like, look, this is what it costs to go to Kickstarter. What kind of a launch do you want? And if they're like, that's my marketing, and

Brett:

Is that kind of the normal, is it like 60 K to launch on Kickstarter? I'm assuming you probably do it for a little bit less, but what is the threshold there to get launched on Kickstarter?

Khierstyn:

If we say the average that you want to go for is six figures, assume you're going to put in about 40 if you're starting from zero. Okay.

Brett:

Yeah. Got it, got it. Okay.

Khierstyn:

And some people are like, cool, I have investors ready to go. But if you're that Shopify brand that you're serious, but you would rather have a smaller launch than what I would advise you do is instead of spending 40 k building up an email list that you can't convert for three months as you're building up, and if you want to go straight to Shopify and spend your money to get orders right away, then we recommend that you do a smaller controlled launch and do a pre-order campaign on your own website.

Brett:

Got it. At that point. And then how any tips or suggestions or Shopify plugins or something to make that pre-order successful because they're some people that don't like to do, but are you positioning like this, you would a Kickstarter launch and try to build a ton of excitement around it, but you're doing it all through Shopify instead of Kickstarter?

Khierstyn:

So couple ways you can do that. It's less about the apps you use unless if you want to stage a crowdfunding campaign on your own website, there's an app called crowdfunder on Shopify that you can use. So that is a good one. We typically haven't replicated crowdfunding on Shopify sites. Just, I don't know why we just haven't, but the typical, I think that there's more flexibility with your Shopify launch. So we just finished one where we had a $20,000 first month for a baby product. Now we decided after doing market testing with MoVI that we didn't want to go to Kickstarter because it's a baby product for newborns that can only be used in the first 12 months of life. And when we look at the Kickstarter demographic, it's just too narrow of a niche to get the volume that we would hope on Kickstarter. And if MoVI had gone to Kickstarter, they would've ended up driving 95% of the sales. So at that point they're like, we would rather just launch on our own website.

Brett:

That's great. So yeah, so talk about that for a minute. Who is the Kickstarter demo? Does it skew slightly mailed? I know you said tech and electronics and stuff like that are big there. What does that demographic look like?

Khierstyn:

Expect it's like 25 to 45 ish. They're early adopters, which can literally be anyone at this point, but 25 to 45. So you're looking at that millennial crowd, you are looking at people who like gadgets household, it is like a split more 60 40 these days of male female. But when you look at is my project, is my product even like a fit? I would just go to Kickstarter and in their search bar type in, okay, watches. Oh, watches are a great category, coffee maker. Oh, awesome. Diapers

Brett:

Less. Nope,

Khierstyn:

Nope.

Brett:

Who wants to fund the diaper? You want to wait till the last possible minute to buy diapers typically, unless it's watching your baby for you or something. Yeah. So that totally makes sense.

Khierstyn:

So something that they're products that servee a wide market. There's an insole that we worked with that helps with knee pain. They wanted to go to Kickstarter, but we're like, ah, I don't know if that's the demographic. So we did a market test and turned out that we were right with their demographic. It was like 55 and up people who suffer from knee osteoarthritis. And that's just too specific. And the demographics are just too old for us, too old. I say old, but it's just too old for the, it's totally

Brett:

Good. It's audience, it's not a match, it's just not a fit. The millennials on Kickstarter. Yeah, yeah.

Khierstyn:

Got it. Exactly. Got

Brett:

It. Okay, cool. So what are you doing to overcome any, so let's talk about, again, launching pre-orders on Shopify. What are you doing to overcome that resistance that some people will have to pre-ordering stuff?

Khierstyn:

Great question. So full transparency number one. Yeah, it, it's really interesting because we had two launches last month that were really good. And then one of the products keeps selling and the other stopped. And when I looked at the websites, the big difference was transparency in shipping. So for some reason, one of the launches decided to not put a pending shipping date on their website while the other one did. And so when I was like, oh, I think know what happened, you need to be be very clear with people ships in July. So number one, you need to be upfront and make sure that people know what to expect. Number two, don't start taking pre-orders until you are confident in your manufacturing timeline. I mean, you started manufacturing or it's on a boat, you need to be confidently eight maximum 10 weeks away from being able to fulfill.

Brett:

Got it. So that's the threshold any more than eight to 10 weeks and not going to happen.

Khierstyn:

We have one product right now that we keep pushing off the launch date because the, it's just like to get to that point where they're finally starting production, they're just like, the sample has to be finalized or there's one little step before we can start production. And we're like, no, we need production to be locked in because last thing you want is to have to tell people five times, really sorry, customers were delayed again. So if you could be as close to the process, better off to keep, just get to market faster and stuff,

Brett:

It really makes sense. There was this coffee maker that was really successful, I think it was on Kickstarter, and it was kind of unique, used centrifugal force to brew the coffee in, you know, could program it and then connect it with Alexa and all these other things. And I was so excited about it and it, it'll do a full shots of espresso or do a single cup of coffee or do a full pot of coffee, super versatile. But they kept having a push back the shift date four or five times something. I mean, I'm just making up a number, but it was a lot and people were losing their minds. It was so unique, so interesting that some people were sticking around, but a lot of people weren't. So yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. For most products. People are not going to want to get the date pushed back any, that's certainly not a few times. So yeah, do this when you're confident that you know what the ship date's going to be.

Khierstyn:

Yeah. But surprisingly you don't get a lot of refunds and this nice plus depend on you being good at communicating delays and how you deliver it. Yeah, of course. But those are really, what are

Brett:

You doing to, are you discounting so that someone wants to buy now? And if so, how much to get someone to say, Hey, you are, you're doing a pre-order shipping in July or whenever, but you get these perks, these benefits, these bonuses, these discounts, what does that usually look like?

Khierstyn:

So people need a reason to buy now. And so I think the pre-order offer is really important because why would I buy now when it's higher risk wait and supposed to wait? Exactly. So there's a couple things you could do. We typically do a larger discount than we would typically expect. You can get super fancy with this, but one that we did for MoVI was 20% off and we kept it simple. You could do things like offer a free accessory with all pre-orders, do something more of value to entice people to buy during a pre-order stage. It's slightly different from a Kickstarter sales strategy because on Kickstarter you have the ly bird rewards where you have 50% off door Crashers special if you buy in the first day. And then day two is a different offer. And then it's it, it's just different. But I like having pre-orders say the first week you get a certain discount, et cetera.

Brett:

But so even if it's on Shopify, you making the offer, the pre-launch offer a little bit different from week to week to again, build some urgency there

Khierstyn:

If you can do that. Otherwise you will see your sales are going to be big in the first week and then nothing for two or three weeks until Mother's Day comes up. And then you do another sale and then your sales spike. People do need a reason to buy and your sales cycle will ebb and flow, but you can help people by giving a good pre-launch offer.

Brett:

Very cool. Very cool. That's awesome. Any other guidance or tips on, do I really focus on building with Shopify or building with Kickstarter? We covered a lot of ground, but any kind of final thoughts there or final tips?

Khierstyn:

If I were launching our next product, I would start on Shopify. I would build an audience. I would keep our costs down. I would do some paid ads. I would scale that way. And then after I have a bit of an audience, I would go to Kickstarter for product two, product three. Got it. That's what I would do. I wouldn't start with Kickstarter unless if I were a funded startup, had something truly unique and stuff. But I prefer just to go direct and ask for the sale because when you close and you ask people to buy your product, that's when you're going to get the most objections. That's when the most learning happens. And that's I think how you're quickly able to figure out how to make something work as opposed to a slow build of a Kickstarter in the beginning.

Brett:

Yeah, I really like that. And we're seen it successful. And again, don't, we're not involved in Kickstarter campaigns, but have had a few clients who very established multiple seven figure eight figure brands, but they launch a new product and they've got a huge audience and a huge following and they want to do the Kickstarter thing. It creates a buzz, it creates excitement. Great. They get some funding and that works, but they've got a hundred thousand person email list or whatever and so they can make it happen. Do that. Yeah, pretty easily. Yeah, totally makes sense. Awesome. So Khierstyn, if people are listening to this and they say, man, I want to know what launch and scale can do for me. I want to know what Khierstyn and team can do. Talk a little bit about your agency, what you guys offer, and then how people can get in touch with you.

Khierstyn:

So we are full service agency. What I mean by that is we hyper focus on early stage brand building. So if you are a seven figure Amazon seller and you want to get stuff to work on your Shopify site, we specialize in helping you figure out how to get the fire going. So we do it through paid ads, conversion rate optimization, and email marketing to essentially handle all sides of the funnel so that we can start to build your audience and go from there. So that's number one. And if you're looking for more like mentorship, et cetera, we do have online programs to help

Brett:

With Nice two. And is all of that available to learn more discover@launchandscale.co?

Khierstyn:

Yes, it is what groups

Brett:

As well? Okay.

Khierstyn:

Yep, you got it.

Brett:

Sweet. Is that the product Launchpad? Is that the training?

Khierstyn:

Yeah, product Launchpad is our, and we actually have a $1 trial on that. Look at

Brett:

That $1

Khierstyn:

Trial can try before you buy. It's a no-brainer deal. But yeah, we find our sweet spot is agency. When we work with founders who are serious about building brands, I absolutely love it. So we work with all kinds of products. It's super awesome.

Brett:

That is a ton of fun. And you got a podcast as well, right? Are you still Podcasty or did you switch to the YouTubes?

Khierstyn:

So the podcast is more where we, YouTube is number one and we end up publishing most of the audio to the

Brett:

Got it, got it, got it. So you're you, youre for YouTube first and then the

Khierstyn:

YouTube's not baby. Yeah.

Brett:

Got it. It. Excellent. Any YouTube tips for the people at home? Cause I know there's some brands, I do hear this more now where people are wanting to, I just opened your YouTube channel, so I just heard you come through the computer here. But any tips on YouTube? Someone brands wanting to build their presence on YouTube organic, any tips or suggestions there?

Khierstyn:

YouTube shorts.

Brett:

YouTube shorts.

Khierstyn:

But on video, actually, this is a question for almost a question for you, but yeah, terrific. We get most of our traffic from YouTube because we go heavy into search volume or and seo. So if you are a brand, some of the easiest and best content you can do is being where people are searching for. So probably my best YouTube tip is if you are, we're launching a product to help women with bladder incontinence. So if she can create videos on what is bladder incontinence, best tips for bladder incontinence, pelvic floor exercises four. So what I'm doing is I'm looking at the problem my product solves and getting into the mind of my customer to think what are some things that content they're searching for to solve that problem. And by you building a content strategy and videos that answer that question on YouTube, you are able to get in front of them.

That's probably, I love YouTube so much because you can essentially plug yourself into where people are by being smart with search as opposed to TikTok, which is more trends and lifestyle things. I think that there's like, if you want predictable traffic, getting onto the YouTube bandwagon is probably the best thing. But I actually don't know if you can answer this, but our long form videos, we have the keyword research and titles, we've kind of figuring that out and that that's good for us. But short form videos, do those play heavily into SEO these days with that search intent? Yeah,

Brett:

So that's a great question. The short answer is I'm not sure. So I'm a YouTube ads guy, I understand organic to a certain degree, but I lean on friends like Liz Jermain who's been on the podcast a couple of times. I know for us we, I've been posting YouTube shorts mostly just clips from the podcast or clips from me speaking at events. And they've done pretty well. They've done pretty well on YouTube shorts. I do love the fact that YouTube organic grows over time and one video can be better a year from now than it is today even, and still generate leads and stuff where there are very few things probably that have the rapid scale potential that's available, the viral factor that that's there with TikTok, but it's usually kind of a flash in the pan, right? You got to keep cranking out content all the time.

Yeah. So what I've heard though is you kind of need to do both the long form content and something that's going to be keyword optimized where it's showing up in search, other content where you're just, you're falling kind of a series of ideas. And so then it's showing up in the recommendations engine and then you pull from all of that to create shorts and then the shorts can kind of feed everything. So that's kind of my understanding. Yeah. But again, I'm just kind of saying what other people have taught me. I'm not an expert on YouTube organic.

Khierstyn:

Yeah, I think this is definitely do your research, but I saw Neil Patel, he's the SEO guy. He

Brett:

Is the SEO guy. No doubt.

Khierstyn:

I did see a short about how when you start to type in things in Google, short form videos are starting to show up as answers to that. So actually

Brett:

Interesting. Yeah. Shorts are showing up in the search. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense, especially if you're answering your question. If I get that question answered in under 60 seconds, that's better than watching a full format minute video or something. Even though Google's getting pretty good, I like just saying, Hey, your answer is starting at this point of the video, and they'll just show you that, which is great. But I love the idea that that shorts can be answers to questions as well. So it

Khierstyn:

Means from that smart, I would assume that having SEO in your short strategy is probably the best way to get qualified traffic. Because our best customers come when they're searching for something. So we have a client who is doing so well, but on YouTube shorts, et cetera, but she sells a mindfulness journal, and that is she can easily tap into what is mindfulness, breathing tips for meditation. She can whatever it is that her target audience is search searching for, she can build content around that show up in their feed, they find out she has a journal, they buy the journal, and it's just, those are probably the best leads because you end up nurturing and qualifying through your content as opposed to dancing on video on TikTok. And they're like, oh wait, you sell journals?

Brett:

Yeah, okay. It's like, yeah. Or they don't even notice. They don't even notice your name or anything. They just see you dancing and they're entertained. But that's it. Yeah,

Khierstyn:

I love TikTok, but in terms of search intent and getting organic traffic through a good content strategy, that's probably where we really shine with that.

Brett:

Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. Cool. So you can find it all out and more@launchandscale.co. Khierstyn has been a ton of fun, really enjoyed it. Thanks for taking the time. And until we do this again,

Khierstyn:

I know. Well, thank you for your time. This was awesome.

Brett:

Absolutely. And thank you for tuning in as always. We'd love to hear from you. So give us feedback on this episode. Give us feedback on the show in general. We'd love to get that five star review on iTunes if you feel like we've earned it. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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Liz Germain is a YouTube PRO and a repeat guest on the show! We first met when I was speaking at an eCommerce event held at the YouTube LA Offices. 

Liz is responsible for well over 200 million organic views on YouTube and has worked and consulted with some of the top influencers online today. 

Here’s a look at what we cover:

• The three types of content you should create on YouTube and how to approach each.
• How search-driven views only account for less than 10% of total watch time on the platform.
• The 4 phases of creating a massive following on YouTube.
• The metrics YouTube cares about and you should obsess over.
• How YouTube ads and YouTube organic do NOT mix, but how you can still leverage both for growth.

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• YouTubeGrowthHacks.com
• ChannelAmplifier.com
• Brett Curry (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (Twitter)

‍

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the eCommerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and today we have a return guest. I've been looking forward to this podcast episode for three plus years, and it's finally here, and I'm excited, and you should be excited as well. So we have one of the foremost experts on YouTube organic growth. If you listened, if you've been a longtime lister, you'll remember her first episode. I've got Liz Jermaine on the show today. She's the CEO and founder of Vidfluence and the creator of the Channel Amplifier Program. She is a superstar. She's helped a ton of names that you would know that we can't necessarily mention on this podcast, grow their YouTube following, and we're going to talk about how you can do that by following these tips and these pieces of advice, the sage wisdom that Liz is going to lay out here for us. So with that intro, Liz, welcome to the show. How's it going? And thanks for taking the time.

Liz:

Yeah, thank you so much for having me back. I always love to come and talk to especially e-commerce brands because I feel like YouTube is often an untapped market, so I really appreciate you bringing me back on.

Brett:

It is untapped. Yeah, so we, as you well know, and as most listeners know, we focus a lot on YouTube ads, and I love the YouTube ad space. It's continued to grow. I think it's an opportunity like no other in the ad space, but most e-commerce companies aren't doing that either, and they're certainly not investing in the organic side. But there have been a few occasions, a few occasions we had one and still have a barbecue client, and they invest in organic content, and then we also run ads. We keep them separate, which we'll talk about later, but the combination of the two is very, very powerful. And so we're going to get into that a little bit today. So Liz, give us your background for those that don't know, how did you become a YouTube master?

Liz:

Yeah, great question. So I am a YouTuber, first and foremost, and happened been for a very long time. My very first channel was in the health and fitness space for women. So we sold a bunch of digital products, membership sites, meal plans, guides, things of that nature for workouts and lifestyle for females all over the world. Really at one point we had over a hundred thousand women in those programs from 32 different countries around the world.

Brett:

Cool. Is that channel still active? Are you still actively posting there?

Liz:

I have not posted in over two years, but it still brings in leads. It still brings in absence revenue, and that's one of my favorite things about YouTube organic is that when you put the videos up that are the right types of videos, they have the potential to continue to produce results for you even after you stop posting. So I have direct firsthand experience with that, and that's really how I got kind of my initial YouTube entry point. But that's certainly not the only channel that I've worked on at this point. We've helped, oh gosh, I don't even know, probably several hundred other coaches, experts, influencers, authors, speakers, all kinds of people, even e-commerce brands, real estate agents, lawyers, I mean, you name it, there's probably a vertical for you on YouTube. And at this point I feel like almost like an encyclopedia of strategy based on industry because the patterns themselves will reveal themselves over time on what works and what doesn't work.

And so it's been a really cool evolution journey from going from health and fitness space just for women to expanding out. The second channel we worked on was in the van life space, and that channel grew significantly faster, not making all the beginner mistakes that we made on the first one. And then from there, we've helped all kinds of different people in pretty much every industry you could think of. So yeah, YouTube is the place to be, and part of that is due to what I've seen and firsthand experience is that evergreen nature of high quality content.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. Good quality YouTube content just gets better with age, it grows and it can continue to get views and drive action For years and years, and we were talking a little bit before you record, I I'm posting more often on social, so if you want to follow me on LinkedIn and Instagram and YouTube shorts and stuff. But I have a lot of friends that post on TikTok or run TikTok ads. And what I always hear is, Hey, you just need to commit to 37 pieces of content per day on TikTok. It's going to explode for a half an hour and then it's going to die. And of course I'm exaggerating, but that's sort of the way it works on TikTok and Instagram in some cases where they are just content hungry. And yes, some content may really take off and reach a lot of people and it drives impact. No doubt, the lifespan, the of that content is quite short. So talk about that a little bit on YouTube and then how would you compare YouTube to other social platforms? Not that you have to pick one, but why should we be motivated to invest time in YouTube versus maybe some other social platforms?

Liz:

Yeah, that's a great question. And this comes up a lot with potential people we're looking at helping is that question of do I go on TikTok, do I go on reels, do I go on YouTube? So just know if you're struggling with that question. You're definitely not alone. I may be biased in sharing my experience, but just based on all the data that we look at and also the several dozen high level clients that we get, it's one of the first things that they'll tell us is we don't know anything about YouTube or how to do it. However, we have noticed on our sales calls, on our conversion landing pages, on basically all of the sales transactions that we have, whenever we get someone that says they found us through YouTube, it's the easiest close of all time. And I think that really speaks to the power of people's time investments that they spend watching long form video.

And this has become really interesting, especially over the last year with YouTube launching shorts, right? So YouTube now also has its own version of the vertical short form one minute or last videos. However, I think there's a lot of buzz around shorts out there in the YouTube space, and there's not a lot of practical strategy that comes with it. And so before we jump into choosing specific platforms, first and foremost know that if you do YouTube long form videos first, you will also be able to segment that out and repurpose it for at least half a dozen different platforms. So you can pull the audio and have it be a podcast. You can pull out many clips from that episode and have those turn into TikTok or reels or shorts. You can take the transcript of it and create a blog post on the websites.

There's all kinds of stuff that you can do. So one of my favorite things about YouTube specifically is if you can figure out how to overcome the barrier to entry of having to learn long form video, it can have a trickle down effect on all the other platforms. Because if you do that the hardest thing first, we can then segment that out and repurpose that content pretty much everywhere. Now with shorts specifically, it's important to also know that even though there's all this buzz, like, oh, just do shorts, just do shorts on the back end when we're looking at the actual data, and also when we consider what YouTube as a business actually wants, YouTube makes most, I think it's like 97% or more of their revenue through selling ad space, correct? So what

Brett:

YouTube, yes, descriptions are just a tiny, tiny fraction of their revenue. Tiny, it's all ads, basically.

Liz:

All ads for the most part. And so what YouTube wants out of short form video creators is essentially to be able to double dip on the ad revenue that they're able to earn and that the creator's able to earn by supporting the viewers on the platform in an even deeper way. So now we have the concept, and this is something that even if you've heard about YouTube shorts, a lot of people haven't also heard that you can actually remix segments of your long form videos and post those later pulled out directly from a long form video. And a remix is slightly different than a standalone short in the sense that it is better aligned to what YouTube as a business wants to increase the ad revenue that they make as a company. So when you pull a remix short out of a long form video and you repost that later, that will have now a little button if someone discovers that video on the short shelf that will have a button that will link them directly back to the long form video that it was pulled out of.

And this is really ideally what YouTube wants out of its creators is that if you are doing short form video, if you can figure out a way to embed high quality shorts into the long form content with this specific intention to pull those shorts out later as remixes, you'll have a what's now considered a new traffic source essentially for long form content. Because the reality is, and you can think about your own user experience on any of the platforms. And when you are in that endless hamster wheel scroll, how engaged and how much are you actually paying attention to the creators that pop on your feed with short form video, you're not really spending a significant amount of your time to get to know them. A lot of times too, I talk to some of the best TikTok organic growth strategists in the world as well, and they say it's great for size and for speed, but it's not great for loyalty and connection and people even knowing what your name is, they might remember what you did, but they're not going to remember who you are.

And so with shorts now on YouTube, we have this incredibly cool opportunity where people can go directly if they liked, especially when it's set up as a remix. If they like that short form content, they can now instantly move into the longer form version of that video and spend even more time with you. And the benefit to YouTube as a business is they can monetize now that short view. And if someone progresses through to continue watching longform, they can also double dip and monetize that longform view as well. And the creator benefits from both of those two. So the other thing with YouTube specifically is that there's all kinds of different ways that you can monetize your content, right? It's not just ad sensee revenue. We're talking developing deeper relationships with people, having those videos due the sales process and overcoming objection process for you even while you sleep. So by the time somebody lands on a sales call, for example, or they land on your product checkout page, they're already pre-sold because they've spent significant amount of time with you prior to actually getting there. So there's all kinds of different benefits for YouTube specifically, but for me personally as a human being, I don't want to have to make 37 pieces of content a day, and I will never do that. I just refused. For me personally,

Brett:

It's a awful, awful, awful way to approach life and business. Just yes, some people love it. Gary V eight to 15 piece of a day, he loves it. It sounds horrible to me. Yeah,

Liz:

For me personally, I just don't like even having my phone when I'm out in the world. So it just never made sense for me. I didn't want to keep up with the rat race of the constant timeline scroll, and I'm all about trying to figure out ways to work smarter and not harder. And in my first business in fitness, when my partner left, my partner was my real life sister, and she got married and decided to start a new business with her now husband. And when that,

Brett:

We'll push up her, I'll just point that out. How could she do that to you? But that's the wake house. Yeah,

Liz:

It was definitely a interesting year, but we're all good now. And it's actually for the way that all happened. It was perfect. However, when she left in that first original business, I had to get really smart because she was half of the leadership team, half of the content team. She basically was my second half in that business. And so when she left, obviously there's this huge gaping hole. And so the first thing I did obviously was go back to audit. Where are the highest number of sales coming in with the least amount of effort on my part? And at the time, we were running all kinds of advertising campaigns. We did Instagram every day. We had Snapchat, we had Pinterest, we had the blog, we had email, we had YouTube, we had literally everything. And it was just not like it losing half that leadership team.

I wasn't able to keep up with the pace of that. So I wanted to look at, okay, we're the highest conversions coming in with the least amount of effort and YouTube and Pinterest were actually the top two for us. And I was like, wow, that's really interesting. I wonder why that is. And that's when I kind of accidentally stumbled upon the power of Evergreen video content. And I've just basically gone all in ever since. Plus, YouTube is the coolest place to be. There's the weirdest, coolest, strangest, most interesting types of people that become creators on the YouTube platform, and I've always really enjoyed that as well.

Brett:

Yeah, it's super, I mean, really anything you're interested in, you know, can go deep on that topic and find lots of experts and find one that resonates with you. And the other thing, and I've talked about this on several podcasts, but YouTube is still growing. I've got a lot of kids, my young kids want to spend time on YouTube. My 12 year old daughter, Maggie, that's what she wants to do in the evening is watch YouTube. She watches on the tv, cause we didn't given her phone yet. She's only 12, but although she protests and says a lot of her friends have phones, but we're standing firm and she's not getting one for a while, but she watches YouTube all the time. I'm on YouTube. My dad, who's 73, uses YouTube to research things and find things. So it's growing. So your audience is on YouTube, and then when you look at all the benefits of that content, having a long shelf life, it really makes a lot of sense.

Now I want to talk about the remix really quickly. So I was telling you before we record, I haven't put as much energy into our YouTube channel as I probably should have. I have started to post shorts. So taking clips from this show, from e-commerce evolution, posting that as a short, some of those have done pretty well. But yeah, I've totally noticed what you said where I've seen this on TikTok or Instagram reels or shorts where you watch something and you're like, oh, that was really cool, but then you go to the next thing and you're like, I don't remember that person's name or what they did or how could I ever find them again? I don't know. So how does that work? How do you make a a remix from a full podcast episode recording or a longer form piece of content? How do you technically go about making that a remix?

Liz:

So to make remixes, you have to do it in the YouTube app. So if you pull up any of the long form videos that you have on your channel and you pull that up on your app screen, you'll see at the very bottom there's a little button that says create. If you click create, you'll be able to select anywhere from 15 to 62nd clips that can be pulled out as vertical video. And so there's an important conversation here and have about timing, right? Okay. You basically would want to have your long form episodes go out first, allow those to do its thing for at least a couple days, usually around three to five days to see is the algorithm going to pick this up and start pushing it out to wider audiences. Now if it does get picked up by the algorithm and it starts being shown in the homepage and suggests a video and all that, we basically don't want to touch it.

We want to let YouTube do its thing and see how high that spike is going to go. Now if it doesn't get picked up, then that's not as important with the timing aspect of it, but essentially once the initial traffic on that long form video starts to level out or even decline, that's the perfect time to blast out a couple of remixes because someone can then discover the content through the shorts feed and then be led back into it. And sometimes that can give it an additional, it's almost like taking out the paddles if you're a doctor and you just give a little heart shock to the patient on the table if it starts to level out. Okay, great, let's roll out some remixes, see if we can get some of that shorts traffic in there to give it a second wind. So all of the remixes right now, and by the way, this is all very new and it's rapidly changing.

YouTube is working on the interfaces for being able to edit more engaging shorts, clips and all of that. So I only anticipate this getting better and better over the years because as of right now, reels and TikTok absolutely win as far as editing features in app. However, YouTube won't be far behind and it is something they're investing a lot of time and money into. But where it stands right now, it's super easy. You just have to go into the YouTube mobile app and pull out any long form video and you can grab those 15 to 62nd clips and re-share them as a remix to help give new life to an old video.

Brett:

Super cool. Love that So much. Excited to try it on this end. And I really also love that the way you frame that, Hey, if you can learn to make that long form content and learn to make that well, then with each time you do, you'll have six to 12 pieces of content, maybe more that you can share in a variety of other places and really get maximum leverage out of that. But can you describe what is longform content on YouTube? We talking eight minutes, we're talking 20 minutes, we're talking an hour. What is long form content?

Liz:

Yeah, so I would classify, it really depends on first and foremost who the audience is, right? If you have a podcast channel, your standard is going to usually be for full length episodes of long form videos. It's usually going to be anywhere from like 45 minutes up to even two hours or more depending on the structure of how your normal episodes go. But I would consider long form video to be anything that's typically between four to 20 minutes long unless you're in an interview type capacity and you're creating that specific type of video format. Short form, of course, we all know it as vertical video, usually it's no more than a minute or two long. For YouTube specifically, there is a 62nd max on that. So it could be argued that anything long form would be basically anything over one minute. However, the reason I don't say that and I start at four minutes is because of what YouTube cares about most, which is total watch time spent on the platform.

So when it comes to your job as a creator, the more that you can align yourself with YouTube's business goals, the better you'll be rewarded. And one of their main things is to essentially increase the amount of time. This is what built all the different algorithms, all the AI on the backend. It's all built to keep people on YouTube and to get them to come back tomorrow for as long as possible. So with long form content, I would say we really are looking at the starting frame of reference point is like four minutes all the way up to unlimited, several hours at a time. There are also, depending on the audience, if you have an audience that is into meditation and spirituality, I've seen creators put out eight to 10 hour videos that are just audio recordings or meditation, high frequency sound healing type of things. So there really is no upper limit on the length of long form videos, but I do personally believe that the four minute mark is really when we start to move into long form because of the thing that matters the most on YouTube, which is how do I keep people on YouTube for longer

Brett:

Total watch time, align your goals with YouTube's goals and good things are going to happen. I love it. So let's dive into what are some of your top tips? So if I want to grow my organic presence on YouTube, where do I start? What are some of the top tips that you recommend?

Liz:

Yeah, so I think it's really important as we were discussing before hopping on here to understand the difference in traffic sources. So when we're looking at YouTube specifically, and this is a concept that YouTube introduced to me after they studied several of the fastest growing, highest engaged channels on the platform, they essentially came up with a framework of the patterns that they found in the content those creators were putting out. And it really comes down to most of the fastest growing heist engaged channels have three main types of content or videos on their channel. The first is help content. So that's like the how-tos, the tutorials, the listical videos, the frequently asked questions that the target customer or the viewer has about a specific problem or challenge they're facing in their life. Then we have hub content and hub content is really the meat and potatoes of fast and very profitable YouTube growth Hub content is the repeatable series or formats that you put out on the channel.

So this is if you think about your channel as a TV show and you're the host of that TV show, these are the episodes that you're known for. So if we look at that in the context of even late Night talk show host for example, they have an interview format. They have a live performance format, and they typically will also have some kind of like a standup comedy format. That's what we mean when we're talking about hub content. It's these repeatable formats or repeatable series on related topics that you can essentially turn a never ending series of related videos that keeps the viewer watching and it's kind of what you're known for. It's your bread and butter. And then the last type of video that they discovered were is something we call hero videos. So these are much more designed for eliciting emotional connection with a viewer taking a stand on controversial or polarizing topics, really the why behind the brand, the soul behind the brand, why are you doing what you're doing?

Why does this matter in the world and how can we take somebody on a hero's journey where the first half we're kind of highlighting the problem and pouring salt in the wound. Midway through the video, we have some kind of a turning point realization and call to action to join in the movement to change it. And then the last half of the video is giving them action steps and more of the inspirational hopeful, okay, now let's go out in the world and make a difference. So when we're looking at the frequency and timelines for when and how and why to post these different styles of videos, health content is really great in the beginning because it's again, how-tos, tutorials, frequently asked questions. It's also really great for e-commerce brands specifically, but health content usually is going to rely on YouTube search traffic for the most part, right? Right. It's like the specific keywords that your customers are searching for around things that they're struggling with and they want to solve in their life. Now, the challenge and the limitation of just focusing on search strategy on YouTube organic is that search views as a whole on all of YouTube every single day account for about seven to 8%, definitely no more than 10% of total views that happen on the platform daily. Whoa. So then the question is where I thought it

Brett:

Was, I had in my head that it was something, I thought it was more like 50%. Has it just been on the decline in recent years or I said another longer move had? No, it's just,

Liz:

Yeah, it's a good question. I'm not sure that it's necessarily declining. It's pretty much always been that way. It feels a lot louder and a lot more significant. I think this is at least my personal take on it because that's what everybody talks about. You think about YouTube and you're like, oh, it's a search engine, it's owned by Google, blah, blah, blah. So there's a lot of content out there that really is pushing SEO and keyword research and all of that. However, it does have these limitations, and I don't think that's necessarily a decline with search traffic specifically. It's just kind of always been that way. It's just that the people doing SEO strategy tend to also be putting out a lot of the SEO content. So it's what you kind of first are exposed to when you get into the YouTube world, and same thing happened to me, I didn't even know that there were other available options.

It could help grow the channel significantly faster and with much more loyalty and higher engagement using some of these other traffic sources that really focus on optimizing for that hub content. What are those repeatable series that will bring people back to YouTube and keep them watching longer? So with search as a whole, all the total available views on YouTube, only less than 10% come from search traffic, which begs the question, where's the rest of the traffic coming from? So the other thing to pay attention to is the recommendation traffic sources. And this is really what YouTube's algorithms are built to do, is to support high quality content being pushed out to the right audiences. So if you think about YouTube channels as a whole, channels are designed to serve a specific value proposition to a specific audience. So when you start mixing all different kinds of formats and there's not really a core parent topic, we start to see obviously engagement and reach decline in that type of a scenario.

But when we're talking about YouTube recommendation traffic, this is really the sweet spot for people. If you want to grow fast and you want to pull in the right types of people, you have to learn how to optimize for YouTube recommendations. So what does that entail? First and foremost, we have the YouTube homepage, who doesn't want to hit the YouTube homepage, but the homepage also includes a subscription feed too. This is in your analytics. This would be called browse features. That's kind of how they classify it. If you're in your YouTube studio, looking at your data browse features includes YouTube's homepage as well as the subscription feed, which is essentially a secondary homepage just for the channels that you're already subscribed to. So that's the first and really biggest and probably easiest recommendation traffic source to crack into is the homepage traffic. But then we also have suggestive video, and you've probably seen this even when you're watching TV with your girls or YouTube TV with your girls, at the end of every video, yeah, you'll see the creator's end screen where they might have a couple related target videos linked up there for you, but at the end of that, YouTube will also tell you, Hey, this is the next best video to watch, and then it will just start auto-playing it.

This is very similar to how even Netflix works. If you finish a movie on Netflix, what does it do? It puts, there's three other recommended movies right below there. So suggestive video traffic also includes the sidebar if you are on desktop, the videos that YouTube's recommending for you based on what you're currently watching. And then if you're on mobile, those suggestive videos will be right below the video that you're watching. So homepage traffic as well as suggestive video traffic are really the secret keys to the YouTube kingdom, especially if you want to grow fast and you want to grow a really big brand, that is what you really need to figure out how to crack into. And it really comes down to a couple main things we have to consider the viewer's journey. So step one for the viewer is do they even see your video in one of those three traffic sources? That's called an impression. I probably don't have to explain impressions because you have a very smart audience that's called an impress. Yeah,

Brett:

You talk a lot about ads. So impressions will make sense for sure. Yeah, and I'm really glad to bring this out cause I'm assuming there's quite a difference between optimizing to be discovered in search on YouTube, the organic search results and optimizing for YouTube recommendations. So yeah, I'd love to hear this. So we're thinking about the viewer's journey continue. Yeah,

Liz:

So phase one is getting the impression in one of those three spots, and you're absolutely right. Optimizing for search is very different than optimizing for recommendation traffic. However, there is also this third crossover spot where you can optimize for all three, and that's really my favorite spot to be because that's where we see insane exponential results. But from the viewer's perspective, first and foremost, do they even see your videos pop up in those recommendations or in the search engine results page, if they're searching for a specific keyword, you don't have direct control over whether or not YouTube gives you those impressions. But what you do have direct control over is step two, three, and four for the viewer from the viewer's perspective. So let's say they do see your video in those impression spots. The next phase, and this is arguably the most important and biggest opportunity that you have, is the click through rate.

Do they click to watch your video and click through rate is going to come down to three primary things. First and foremost is the topic, is it relevant to the target viewer that's seeing it? And then from there, it's just the title and thumbnail because that's all they see in those impression spots. So getting really, really good at writing insanely clickable titles and creating complimentary imagery or packaging in the thumbnail designs is an absolutely essential skill for anybody that wants to grow their YouTube channel because it's directly correlated to your click through eight. Nice. Now, usually with click through eight, we're aiming for anywhere from seven to 10% is kind of a baseline. The only time I'd be okay with it not being within that baseline would be if the impressions just shot through the roof and all of a sudden we have 10 million impressions, it's expected that that would go down because that means YouTube's actually doing exactly what we wanted to do. It's showing it to wider and wider audiences.

Brett:

YouTube's loving your video and they're showing it to a lot of different places. We see the same thing on the ad side of things as well with you YouTube or with Google Shopping as an example, sometimes you're really insanely high clickthrough rates, but then as Google says, Hey, this is a great ad, and they start showing you more places and more often clickthrough rate comes down, but your overall impact goes up for short. Now I get the title and thumbnail piece. You talked about the topic of the video. Do you just mean what you're making the video about or is there something on the video where you signify this is the topic of the video?

Liz:

Yeah, well, everything you do on YouTube is going to come down to who you're making the videos for. So we have a specific process that will typically take people through where we get really clear on who the avatar is. And it's not that you necessarily have to just choose one avatar and stick with it, although that does help. You can have up to two to three varying avatars, but what they do need to share is core underlying values or psychographic behaviors. So why do they do what they do? What are their fears? What are their triggers? What are their values? What are their goals? Things of that nature are super, super important to break down psychologically for the viewer, and it's probably the same way with ads too, but that's the first step is figure out who you're making the videos for, because then from there, we can essentially pretend to be that viewer on YouTube and create a whole separate account, then start to behave as they would behave, and then study the patterns and top performing content that YouTube does put in those impression spots.

So that's kind of essentially how we reverse engineers starts with who is the person we're creating this content for in the first place, and then how can we become them so we can basically see what they see and then match and mirror our content to follow the patterns in top performing videos or top performing creators on YouTube as a whole. So yeah, click through rate is super important, and we have to have that relevancy factor first because even if you have a great title on thumbnail, if it's not relevant to the viewer you made it for, they're not going to click it anyway. So that's kind of that's, and then YouTube

Brett:

Is going to stop showing it, and then it's just going to die a

Liz:

Switch. Then a it gets buried painful death. Yeah, so that's phase two. Then let's say they do click on it because it's relevant to them and they like the packaging, the title and thumbnail. Then from there, we're on phase three for the viewer is once they're on the video, how long do they stay on the video? Do they leave after 30 seconds? Do they watch 80% of it do what is going on the backend once they land on the video? So really looking at the audience retention reports, and we want to bare minimum baseline 40% retention, if we can get it, can get up over 60, 70, 80% retention, basically doing exactly what YouTube wants creators to do, which is keep people on YouTube. So got it. That's super important to look at as well, is your audience retention reports. And see, just because you a video has a hundred thousand views, that doesn't really mean much if they all left after 15 seconds versus if you had a video that had 3000 views, but the viewers stayed for 85% of it.

That's what we're trying to do and what we're trying to optimize for there. So that's kind of phase three from the viewer perspective of what the creator needs to understand, click through rate and audience retention are two of the most important things that you need to optimize for. But then there's this fourth phase, which is once they're done watching your video, then what do they do? Do they go on to watch more of your videos or do they leave YouTube altogether, or do they just go over to a video that was recommended to them in the suggested up next spot that YouTube put in front of 'em, right? Where does that viewer go from there? And this is a part of YouTube organic strategy that I don't see a whole lot of people talking about really at all. But it brings it back to that importance of hub content and having repeatable formats or series, because you look at the biggest YouTubers in the world, like the Mr Beast of the world, they have essentially four or five main formats that they just repeat over and over with different people or different prizes or different environments.

And that's pretty much it because they have this proven formula of a video that gets really high clickthrough rate, really great audience retention. So if you find that you have a breakout video in those two regards that your audience really resonated with, then the next challenge from there is how do we turn this into a never ending series of related videos? So if you can though you don't have direct control over impressions that YouTube gives you, you do definitely have direct control over the click through eight, the audience retention and the ability to feed those viewers into these bingeable behaviors or rabbit holes of related videos for them. And that's really what we help support all types of creators in doing so that when you optimize those three things, the impressions are guaranteed to go up.

Brett:

Nice. So we're we're launching more with the help content, FAQs, listicles tips, ideas, five reasons why, five things to do, blah, blah, blah. So we're starting with that more often than Knocks, that's going to drive some search impressions and get a little bit of volume and traction for our channel. Then we're going to pivot and eventually do mostly hub content and hero content, or what does that kind of frequency or makeup look like over the long haul?

Liz:

Yeah, great question. So ideally, what we want to have happen from search videos or even from shorts videos is that they find those videos, but then they go on to watch more content on the channel. So we want to see both of those styles of content as a gateway into the repeatable series. So when it comes to, let's say you have your first, it's brand new first day on YouTube ever, you're going to put out 10 videos. Of those 10 videos, I'd probably make sure that at least four or five of them had some kind of keyword, especially if you have products or services or something that you sell on the back end of the channel. It is really important to have that help. Library of Evergreen FAQ's, tutorials, how-tos. So out of 10 videos, if you started with, I'd probably make sure at least four of them are search related, and then the large majority of the rest of them, like five, six of them, would be more focused on recommendation traffic sources.

So right out of the gate, we're doing both, because the cool thing about help content is you can make it at any time. You don't have to just do that in the beginning. And if you only focus on search based videos in the beginning, you may end up pigeonholing yourself into becoming a resource channel where essentially people will get those answers. They might find you through search, they watch that one video, but they got their answers. So there's really no incentive for them to go on to watch more content because they just came to YouTube to figure out how to change attire or how to file their taxes or whatever it is, and they got the answer from that video, and then they're gone. They're going to go apply the answer. So when you only focus on search stuff, you can run into what we call a resource channel, where it's like you may have one video that has a million views because it was really relevant and it's something a lot of people struggle with, but then the rest of your videos are getting two, 300 views, so there's not any crossover between your content because there's no real relationship between you and the viewer themselves.

So yeah, if you were starting with 10 videos, I'd say at least four of 'em should be some kind of search topics to get people in the door, because search is amazing for discovery, but we want to make sure that the bulk of the strategy is focused more on that hub content that has a higher likelihood of being recommended by YouTube. And then Hero videos is really only once or twice a year. This is like if you have a big launch coming up, if you are wanting to do press, you want to deepen the relationship with the viewers that you already have attracted to the channel hub, or sorry, hero content really isn't something that is like you're doing on a consistent basis every single month, because they usually have much more storyboarding that goes into them a lot more time, money, and energy that goes into the production them if you want them to really take off. And they're usually focused more on the emotional aspects of the human experience. How does this practical information or entertaining information also apply to who you are and what you're here to do on the planet? So

Brett:

Love it. Love it. Well have several more things I want to ask you, but we're running out of time. So we got about five minutes left. Let's go a little bit rapid fire for this next section, but mistakes that you see. So you coach a lot of people, you work with a lot of people, you've grown a lot of channels, hands on. What are some of the top mistakes you see YouTube creators make?

Liz:

Yeah, I would say not understanding traffic sources and how important recommendations are for YouTube growth and trying to cheat the system with especially paid advertising. Like, oh, let me just run some ads to these videos. Ooh, that's like, Ooh, it just makes, it grinds my gears when I see that. Okay, yeah, you might get a lot of

Brett:

Views on it, open number of views quickly though, but

Liz:

Yours, so it helps your ego quite a lot to get lots of views. But on the back end, we'll look at the data around it, and it's like we're getting people from the wrong countries. We're getting people in the wrong age groups. There's all kinds of stuff that can go wrong with that. And not only that, the watch

Brett:

Time is not good. The P people are not engaging with the video

Liz:

Usually. I mean, think of it, it's the difference between invitation and interruption marketing. If you're watching a YouTube video and then an ad pops on, you might go through and watch the remainder of that video, but in most cases you don't because it was interrupting your experience, right? You're not leaving comments, you're not watching the increased audience retention, you're not watching significant portions of the video. You might pop on because you were curious, but it can hurt audience retention, it can hurt click through rate, it can hurt engagement, and all those things YouTube's AI will be looking at and basically be like, oh, this video must not be that great, then let's just bury it. Right? So I would say that's one of the biggest things, especially for entrepreneurs and business owners, is trying to run ads to content to build an organic audience. And I just never think it's worth it ever, ever.

Brett:

Yeah. And so do you recommend that, obviously YouTube ads have their place, we spend millions a month on YouTube ads, but you shouldn't really mix your ads strategy and your organic strategy. They can compliment each other. You can take viewed video audiences of people that engage with your organic content, you can target them in ads, but are you typically recommending two separate YouTube channels, one to house your organic content and one to house your ad content?

Liz:

Yeah, definitely. The other reason for that too is to preserve the integrity of your organic data when you're doing analytics reviews, if you have all this paid traffic coming in YouTube on the backend, there are filtering tools and all that, but it's a little, it's kind of complicated to get there, and it's a much more advanced skill to be able to filter out paid versus organic traffic sources and all that. So YouTube's going to clump that all together on the back end of the channel. And especially for the more beginner type of analytics reports, you can filter it out in advanced analytics, however, it just creates an extra roadblock, an extra step to really be able to understand what's working organically for you. So typically we'll recommend that you keep those two channels separate. You have a separate, almost like a dummy account just for your paid advertising, and then you don't really SEO or put that out there at all. It's kind of just like this shadow account, because on the backend with Google Ads, like you were saying, you can still retarget totally the viewers that you get organically even on a separate account. So totally, I just think, you know, couldn't pay me enough to put ads on an organic channel.

Brett:

So we'll keep 'em separate. I am sold on that idea. I really appreciate that. So as we wrap up, Liz, I know people are going to be watching this and thinking, okay, I got to spend more time with Liz. I got to learn from her. I want to know all that she has to offer. So I think you get some free tools, some free downloads, and then also I want to hear about the Channel Amplifier program as well. So where should people go now if they want to learn more?

Liz:

So you can head over for free stuff, you can go over to YouTube growth hacks.com. We have a free little starter guide over there for you. And then as far as getting deeper level support and really learning how to take action on what we talked about today, you can head over to channel amplifier.com. It's a 90 day training program where the first eight weeks, you're essentially going to be going through a whole library of over a decade of YouTube experience and really breaking down what actually matters on the platform for successful organic growth. And then the last half of the program, we do hot seat coaching. So if you need a second pair of eyes on your data, you can't figure out what's going on with the channel, where your bottlenecks are and things like that. It's a really supportive community of other creators, and also you'll be able to get direct access to me in a much more affordable way than working.

Brett:

That is awesome. I'll, I'll lead you. So URLs, one more time to check both those out.

Liz:

Yep. YouTube growth hacks.com to get the starter guide for setting up your channel correctly. And then channel amplifier.com is where you can learn about the YouTube training program.

Brett:

Awesome. We will link to all of that in the show notes, but go check it out. Hang out with Liz, learn from Liz. List your name, ladies and gentlemen, you killed it. Super fun. The hour, or not quite an hour by way too fast. So now we're going to have to think about part three at some point. So Liz, really appreciate it. This was awesome. Thank

Liz:

You so much for having me.

Brett:

Absolutely. And thank you for tuning in. And as always, we'd love your feedback. We'd love to know what you'd like to hear more of on the show, topic suggestions, guest suggestions. We are open to it. And so with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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Steve is a legend in the eComm space. He is not only the store owner of Bumblebee Linens, but also the host of the highly successful marketing podcast, "My Wife Quit Her Job,” which ranks among the top 25 in its category. He has been successfully running an eComm event for 7 years, and it is one of my favorite events to attend and speak at.

He’s also the author of a brand new book - The Family First Entrepreneur.

His impressive combination of experiences gives him a unique perspective on eCommerce and entrepreneurship.

Here is a look at what we cover:

• How to grow using lifecycle marketing when only 12% of your customers buy more than once.
• How Steve thinks about customer buckets to grow cross-sells, upsells, and repeat orders.
• How Steve and his team use Chat GPT4 to 10x their organic traffic.
• What’s the future of AI and white-collar jobs?
• How Steve thinks about pricing and why they no longer offer deep discounts.

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• Family First Entrepreneur
• MyWifeQuitHerPodcast (YouTube)
• Steve Chou (Twitter)
• Sellers Summit
• Brett Curry (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (Twitter)

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and today I have an e-commerce veteran. He's a legend in the space. He's a podcaster, he's an author, he's a store owner. He runs his own events. If you don't know him, you are going to love getting to know him on this podcast, but I've got Steve Chou joining me. Steve is the host of the My Wife Quit Her Job podcast, a Top 25 podcast in the marketing space. He's also the author of a brand new book called The Family First Entrepreneur, which we'll talk about a little bit on the show. He's the co-founder of Seller Summit, one of my favorite events to attend and speak out. I think I've spoken there three or four times coming up at the time of this recording, which is great. And then also co-founder of Bumblebee Linens. And so we're going to be talking lifecycle marketing, ai, and probably other fun stuff because he's a podcaster. He's comfortable with all this. But with that intro, Steve Chou, my man, how you doing? Welcome to the show and thanks for coming on,

Steve:

Dude. What up Brett? Always happy to talk to you and very thankful that you were able to speak at Seller Summit. I want to say for the past five years, I want to say, I think that's

Brett:

Right. I think it's been five years. Seller Summit has become one of my favorite events to attend and speak out. I think I've spoken there for the last four or five years, and it's also been really fun to watch the attendees grow. Now you keep it small and intimate on purpose, but the size of the sellers you, you're seeing their businesses grow over the last several years, which has been fun to watch. And so I don't know what your perspective is on that as the event organizer,

Steve:

It's been great. Actually, the average revenue per attendee is in the mid seven figures now, and it wasn't like that in the very beginning. Seven years ago, everyone was making six figures, and it's been amazing to see them grow over the years. And your talks always get high marks, which is why I always invite you back.

Brett:

Thanks, dude. Thanks. Good to hang out. I always in just enjoy the speaker networking and the speaker mastermind. You do, but always a good time, great audience and super fun event. So talk to us about, I dive into a few things. I want to talk about lifecycle marketing, and you've had a really unique perspective because you run a podcast, you run an event, you talk to merchants all the time, but you are a merchant, you run a store. And so we're going to talk about lifecycle marketing and love your perspective there. Also going to get into AI just a little bit because I think you're using it in a very unique way, very powerful way. So we're going to dive into that, but talk to us about what was the process like to write this book? So Family First entrepreneur, what's the motivation behind that and what was that process like? Just curious.

Steve:

Yeah, I, I'll just tell you, the motivation was I've been blogging for 10, 11 years now over a decade. My mom has never read a single thing, but as soon as I told her that I was doing a traditionally published book, she got all excited and wanted to read her right away. That made me very happy.

Brett:

See, you're doing this so that hopefully your mom puts something on the fridge. Look at what Steve did. He wrote, he wrote a book. He finally did something interesting.

Steve:

There's a lot of childhood trauma there. Let's not get into that. But yeah, the other reason was it's always been on my bucket list and I just want to walk my kids to the bookstore. Hopefully this bookstore, that's the only bookstore that's left in my area, stays in business in time for the book to be released. So I can actually walk them through there. So

Brett:

Dude, that would be amazing. Yeah. Hey, dad wrote that book also for you to do a book signing at that bookstore. That would be super cool as well. I'm not sure if they'll, you know how I'm

Steve:

Going to do a tour? I'm going to do a tour.

Brett:

Are you really?

Steve:

I am, yeah. Afterwards, yeah, just like a relaxing tour where I'm just going to go around and just do a little book signing here and there. I don't know if I'm going to make it out to your neck of the woods. Brett, you're No

Brett:

Springfield, Missouri. Come on. Actually, for mid-size market, we were very entrepreneurial in nature and entrepreneur friendly. Actually, I saw it was Inc. Anchor four, somebody several years ago ranked us it one of the top mid-size markets for entrepreneurs, which is kind of cool,

Steve:

But maybe I'll have it at omg. Who knows? What's that? You led me to your offices. Maybe I'll have one there.

Brett:

Yeah. Okay, let's do it. Let's do a book signing at OMG headquarters. I love it. So more about the book later, but let's do this. So you're the co-founder and you also said you called yourself the Grunt at Bumblebee Linens. So explain what you guys saw, what you guys do, and then we're going to get into lifecycle marketing in just a second.

Steve:

So we mainly sell handkerchiefs and linens for special occasions. And I would say our primary customer base are people who are getting married, people who have baptisms. And unfortunately we also do a lot of funerals, but we personalize these hankies. So we actually have these industrial sewing machines in our warehouse, and we do a lot of sewing, which means generally there's not a lot of repeat business, but we're talking about lifecycle marketing, which implies that you sell to your customers a lot. We do have a really strong set of repeat customers, and believe it or not, I kind of discovered this by accident, but there are a lot of people who collect handkerchiefs also. Really something we discovered over the years. They

Brett:

Collect handkerchiefs BA based on special events or something. They're buying a handkerchief to commemorate something or they want to buy 'em different

Steve:

Styles. It's kind of like there's people who have a hundred pairs of shoes in their closet. These people have thousands of handkerchiefs. It's

Brett:

Crazy. You got the sneaker heads, you got the shoe dogs out there, you got the

Steve:

We hanky heads.

Brett:

The hanky heads, hanky heads. That is hilarious. So yeah, it's a good point. So I mean, obviously people do get married more than once on occasion, certainly, and you have those other events, but yeah, this is not, I'm not going to join the hanky of the month club unless you're in that crowd or I'm not going to buy one a year or something. So yeah, I was a little surprised when you said, Hey, one of the things I'm passionate about is lifecycle marketing. Let's talk about it. So how do you think about lifecycle marketing knowing that the vast majority of your clients are only going to buy once?

Steve:

So just throwing some numbers out there. So only 12% of our customers are repeat, but it actually represents over 36% of our revenue. And I kind of stumbled upon this one day by just looking through our, does

Brett:

That mean that the AOVs are really high for your repeat customers,

Steve:

Or they are? I'm going to tell you why I'm getting into that. Yeah, good,

Brett:

Good, good. Yeah, sorry, jumping ahead. Yeah.

Steve:

Yeah. So I was just looking through the stats and I just noticed some customers in there that were purchasing a lot of linens. If some person's purchasing 40 dozen napkins or a hundred hanks, it's kind of unusual. So one day, just on a whim, I called the person up and I was like, Hey, we noticed you ordered a large quantity and you've ordered more than once. Can I ask what you do? And then they told me, Hey, yeah, we're an event planner. We do this all the time. And so I was like, okay, great. Here's a custom coupon code and here's a dedicated rep, so when you need anything for the event, we'll make sure it gets there. We'll put a person on it. And so now what we do is we go through our customer list almost every single month, find those outliers, and we just call them up and on the phone. People are surprised.

Brett:

You literally call them on the phone. On

Steve:

The phone, yes. Not email.

Brett:

Are they like shocked? They're like, wait a minute. The e-commerce store that I just bought from is calling me on the phone right now.

Steve:

Exactly. But they're good. I mean, they bought from you, they know who you are. So they're more receptive, and we're always really polite. We lead in with coupon, dedicated rep care of the order, and it works really well. And so these people who we get that way end up being customers for life, and they buy a lot and they buy often.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. I think, I know we're mutual friends with Drew Sonke, nerd Marketing, but also involved in a number of companies, just kind of a legend in the e-commerce space. But he talks about identifying your whales, identifying, looking at things like recency frequency, monetary value, so how soon did someone purchase, how often did they purchase, and then the monetary value of what they purchased. And so you identified those people and now you're totally giving them the white club treatment phone call, thank you, coupon code, dedicated rep. And yeah, after you do that customer for life, why are they going to go anywhere else? Why do they choose Amazon or something for their next linens? They want to buy from you. So

Steve:

Yeah. The other thing we also noticed, and I recommend that everyone do this, is we looked through all of our traffic sources and we found out which traffic sources had the highest revenue per visitor. And because before I did this analysis, I was just looking at everything in aggregate. If everything's good, usually, you know, don't look at it. But I started looking at it and I noticed that the people I was getting from Facebook were our lowest revenue per visitor of all the traffic sources.

Brett:

Interesting.

Steve:

The people who were coming in organic through Google were our highest value people, which tends to be true for, I would say for most stores. But that's what caused me to actually focus more on the organic SEO side.

Brett:

Interesting. And as a Google paid guy, and I also have a background in seo, I love SEO too, but how did Google, so Google Organic is the highest, was it still comparable to Google paid search as an example, or was it noticeably different?

Steve:

No, paid search is up there too. I mean, they're one and the same, right? I mean, yeah,

Brett:

You are actively searching at that high buyer intent, so that that's different than someone that you're demand gen type advertising with Facebook

Steve:

Super. Maybe you can comment on this, Brett, but I moved over to Performance Max and Performance Max is a black box.

Brett:

It

Steve:

Is. So it's actually kind of hard to tell where everything's coming from once I did that.

Brett:

So a couple things. I can send this to you after we're done recording. There's a script that my buddy Mike Rhodes, he runs Web Savvy and Agency Savvy, is based in Australia. Brilliant, brilliant Google marketer. He and his team built this script and we added a little bit to it, but basically you run the script, it'll pull all the data outside, pull all the data out of Performance Max and show you where the spend is going. So it gives you quite a bit of insights to know what you might need to adjust or what you might not need to adjust. And we have heard, because everyone is telling Google the same thing, we want more visibility, we want more data inside of Performance Max that some data's going to be coming into the account. So we'll see. We have seen though, kind of anyway, we slice it. Performance Max is doing pretty well for most of our clients. We spend now between four or 5 million on just Performance Max here in the last year or so, and a little better than smart shopping at new customer acquisition. We can scale it a little bit better, but they're definitely some kind of best practices to follow in terms of the way the assets you've given and the way you structure your asset groups and the way you bid. I'll be talking about that at that seller summit, which will be fun. But yeah.

Steve:

Yeah, I mean, what I like about Performance Max is that you can actually maintain it with it's relatively low maintenance.

Brett:

Yeah, totally. If you want to be hands off a performance max and you've got all the right assets there, you can totally be hands off. And this is also why I kind of hated it in the beginning because I thought it would only be hands off. You could be hands off if you want, but if you want to tinker and you want to add new things, you want to try segmentations, you could do that too. And we've been able to push the envelope with a couple clients by creating multiple campaigns or by the way we structure the asset group. So it's kind of interesting. But yeah, if you just got it kind of simple and it's dialed in, it'll just keep working, which is great. Did you see, and we're getting a little bit deep

Steve:

In the field off topic. Yeah, yeah. Curious,

Brett:

Did you, your performance improve from smart shopping to Performance Max, or is it about the same as it was with Smart Shopping?

Steve:

So I was actually never using Smart Shopping. I was only on shopping. Okay. And it's just regular. And I found that unfortunately, performance Max kind of eats into the,

Brett:

It does

Steve:

The other campaigns. So I just like the hands off nature of it. And overall it gives me greater reach. The isn't as good, but it gives me higher reach. I make more money overall, so that's why I like it.

Brett:

And the issue with just standard Google Shopping is your placements are limited to just the search results, but you'll notice if you pay attention, if you're shopping for something and then you go to YouTube or you go to a site that's part of the Google Display Network, which is like 90% of the internet, you'll start to see product listing ads or Google Shopping ads for related products. Not even the products you clicked on, but if you've been searching for cookware or a vacuum or whatever, you'll start to see ads for those things in other places. And that's largely driven by Performance Max, which is interesting.

Steve:

I see minutes everywhere I go now, actually.

Brett:

That is awesome. Cool. Okay. So you identified your best customers. You call them, you give them an offer, you identify your top traffic sources. What else do you do that's unique related to lifecycle marketing?

Steve:

So we just have different buckets for customers, and I don't know if this is unique, I'm sure other people are doing it, but we have a portion of our list that has never bought before. So for those people, we'll discount a little bit more heavily just to get them to make that first purchase, just to get them to open up their wallet. We also have a bucket of customers that have purchased once but didn't purchase again. And I just can tell from our data that if we can get someone to buy again, just twice anything, chances are they're going to be a longer term customer. So we do whatever we can for them to get that second purchase. We'll cro, so we have these flows automatically set up in Clavio so that, I'll give you an example. We sell three different types of napkins in our store, cocktail lunch and dinner napkins. And we usually sell 'em in matching sets. So if someone buys like a cocktail napkin but does not buy a dinner napkin or a lunch napkin, we automatically send an email that tells 'em, Hey, did you know that we sell matching lunch applicants and dinner applicants? And so we're kind of automatically getting them to buy again, and it's all fully automated in the auto-responder sequence. So for those people who bought once and haven't bought again, we just cross-sell them other products that are just automatically related based on what they bought. What's

Brett:

The take rate on that typically? Do you know off the top of your head, if you send that, Hey, you bought the cocktail napkins but not lunch or dinner when we saw matching, are you getting a pretty good take rate on that?

Steve:

The take rate is probably in the low double digits, high single digits. But we actually cross sell a bunch of, so another example also is, Hey, did you know that we sell personalized cocktail napkins, though the take rate for that is higher, so if they want their initials on it and whatnot, that tends to work better. So we'll leave with that

Brett:

So that that's more of an upsell. Right. So you got cross sell bought cocktail napkins. Now here's the lunch and dinner that are matching, but there may have been a reason why they only bought cocktail, so now you're saying, Hey, you've already got those, but now get customized cocktail napkins. Correct. Got it. And then there's a higher take rate for that. Correct.

Steve:

Correct.

Brett:

Totally makes sense. Interesting. What are some of the mistake, because again, I know you got a unique perspective, you talk to people at Seller Summit and you run a podcast. What are some other mistakes, either tactically or with the approach or mindset? What are mistakes you see people make when it comes to life cycle marketing?

Steve:

I would say the biggest mistake I see people make is spending all their money on customer acquisition and just kind of neglecting the repeat business side. And I can get it. I get it. It's much sexier to get a new customer. You're running ads and you get these new customers, but then our business wouldn't be the same if we didn't have our repeat customer base. Right? Totally,

Brett:

Totally.

Steve:

Because it's a solid foundation to build upon, and in fact, that's the way we grow. We constantly build upon these repeat customers,

Brett:

30 per 36% of your revenue. That's huge.

Steve:

And not only that, getting new customers is just getting more and more expensive every single year. So you almost have to focus on your existing customers in order to survive, in my opinion.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. And I heard this from J Abraham first, but there's really only three ways to grow a business. It's more new customers. So customer acquisition, it's getting people to buy more each time they purchase. So increasing your A O V, and then it's getting them to buy more often increasing the ltv. So new customers, A O V ltv, those are really, that's it. Like millions of tactics you can kind of layer in there. But those are, that's it. And it's often easier, more profitable to either in increase your A O V or extend increase the LTV over time. And so

Steve:

Can we just talk about pricing a little bit too?

Brett:

We would love to, yes. Would love your perspective on pricing. Absolutely.

Steve:

We pretty much don't do big discounts anymore. And it was only after I did the math, did I kind of discover how detrimental a discount is. So during Black Friday, a lot of people do heavy discounts. Let's just take some numbers here. Let's say you have a product that sells for a hundred bucks and your margins are 50%, which means it costs you 50 bucks. Yep. Right? Let's say you typically sell a hundred units a day of that item. So you're making 5,000 unit $5,000 a day. Let's say during Black Friday you decide to do a 25% sale. I like it. I like it. Not a big deal. A lot of people do that. So all of a sudden

Brett:

It's just 20%, it's just 20 Steve,

Steve:

But it's not, yeah, 25%. That's it. That's it. So the new math is you're selling it for 75 bucks, your cost of goods is still 50, and so you're only making 25 bucks per sale, and all of a sudden you need to sell 200 units a day just to break even. Right? Right. So yeah, you

Brett:

Cut your margin in half. Another way to say is you've got to double your sales to make the same amount of money. Yeah.

Steve:

Yes. Most people don't realize it. Most people only think that they need to make up 25% more sales to make up for that 25% coupon. And I'm being generous here, right? 50% margins is, I

Brett:

Mean, those are healthy. A lot of people would love to have 50% margins.

Steve:

Exactly. Now, what's cool is the opposite is true when you raise prices, right? Let's say a store's net margin is 10%. I think I looked at statistic up at one point. The average net margin after everything for an e-commerce store is 10%, right? Let's use that same example. So a hundred bucks, you're making 10 bucks per sale. Let's say you decide to raise your price as just 1%, right? Just a dollar. You can probably raise your price 1% and not see that effect on your sales. So all of a sudden now you're making $11 in profit, that's 10% more, 10%

Brett:

Increase by raising increas profits, right? Yeah. And it's also one of those things where, and people are kind of used to price increases now because of inflation and just everybody knows the cost of goods are growing up and whatnot. In that scenario, you raise your prices 10%, which may not be that big of a deal. So you go from 50 to 55 or something like that, that could double your profits, right? Because you're at a 10% market, which is pretty crazy. So yeah, love that. That cool. So eyeopening like we got to think more than just customer at new customer acquisition. We got to think about lifecycle marketing and putting people into different buckets, focusing on those whales or those VIPs or those most profitable customers and really treating them differently. And then love this pricing discussion too, just because I want to make sure we give it adequate time. I want to talk about AI because I think you're doing some pretty cool stuff there. You're getting some tangible, measurable results from ai. But first of all, what's your general take on ai? Should we be scared? Is AI coming for our jobs? Are you excited about AI and nervous about ai? A little bit of both. What's your general take?

Steve:

I see. I think on the content side, I'm a little worried because a lot of my business is based on seo. I don't know if you've tried the new Bing search, have you?

Brett:

Not much. I've tried more chat G P Ts. Some team members have tried Bing, and I'm hearing mostly good things about it. I do hear the Google's goo, so Google's got barred, right? But I heard there's a new thing coming called Project Magi, I think. Yep. Yeah, that'll, that'll be interesting. So yeah, we'll see how that all shakes out. But yeah, continue.

Steve:

I was going to say, it's just if you use the new Bing, it's just kind of a glimpse to how things are going to look like in the future. So let's say you type in, what are the best hankies? Well, in Bing search, which is based on Chachi B T four, I believe only the top four results come up and it's not search. It says, Hey, the top hankies are from this place, this place, this place, and this place. Then there's citations, which basically means you really need to be in that top four just to get any clicks. Wow. Yeah. Going forward. And if you run an affiliate site or a content site, you're just going to get the answer and no one's going to click on the citations. Right.

Brett:

Yeah. Super interesting. So now you know where it's always been super important to be page one. It's always been important to be at the top of page one. Now you got to be top four your toast, basically.

Steve:

Yeah. So I think content sites are in trouble. I think e-commerce is okay, but you're going to have to really take those top coveted spots in order to get

Brett:

Traffic that way, bid to be in those top spots, treat customers in a way that you're going to get good reviews, offer a great product. So that's going to kind of fuel everything else. Cool. So talk about how are you guys using AI to grow your business?

Steve:

Yeah, what's cool about ai and a lot of people are using for content, a lot of people are using it for bullet points for Amazon. Some of the cool ways that we've been using it for is just even for product ideas. So let's say you're a dad of a ton of children, eights

Brett:

Kids, man, I got the old show

Steve:

Eight children. I didn't think I'd ever meet someone with more kids than Tony, but yeah,

Brett:

You got to be by one, right? She's got seven. Yeah. We instantly connected us weirdos with lots of kids, different cut from a different cloth.

Steve:

You can actually ask Chad g b t to give you products. Someone with a father of eight kids would be interested in. Maybe that's a little broad actually, but you can actually get really good product ideas based on just demographic information that you give it.

Brett:

Interesting. So give me product ideas for this type of person, this avatar.

Steve:

Yeah, the same works for cross sells also. So like, hey, give me stuff that people would buy hanky with and or napkins or linens or whatever. And sometimes it comes up with some obscure products that you actually might want to look into carry.

Brett:

Interesting. So have you used AI to fuel your next product idea, or is it more like it gives you some ideas and that spurs other thoughts? Or have you taken an idea directly from Chad G P T and executed

Steve:

On it? I mean, that's kind of how we stumbled upon some of our next products because we haven't been brainstorming new product lines in a while. We, we've been getting variations of the same because you can get a whole bunch of variations of hankies and napkins, but we haven't really thought too much about completely different product lines. And this is something that we just recently did and we used chat G P T four for that.

Brett:

Interesting. Have you launched those product lines yet? We

Steve:

Have not yet. We have not yet. So the original plan was actually go to China because we used to go to the Canton Fair every other year, but then Covid hit and then we kind of made the last minute decision not to go this year just in case. So we'll probably end up going next year, but we do have some source agents that are looking for these products for us right now.

Brett:

Very interesting. Yeah, we'll keep you posted on that. Super interested in that as well. So of course, the content idea of writing bullet points, descriptions, things like that. We're still much very much in this exploration stage as an agency. How do we use ai? One interesting thing that we're running into, some of our larger clients are telling all their agencies, Hey, you cannot do anything related to our brand on Chat G P T. And the reason they're giving us is because once you enter that information to chat G P T, then it becomes, now Open Eye can use that in other ways. So there's some clients that are resistant to that, which is totally fine. One way we're using it though, just for the podcast as an example, so I'll write show notes and a title for a show. My sister will then got to plug it into chat g, PT and Disaster Variations. And it's probably more than half the time we'll either use a suggestion directly from chat G P T, or we'll take that and tweak it and then use that. And so we're using it that way. We're getting into fuel copy ideas for some of things we're working on, but we're mostly just playing around with it at this point. I've got some lofty ideas for AI related to data analysis and stuff, but we're still playing around with it. But you guys are using it for content even out outside of Amazon? Correct?

Steve:

We've actually, I have a couple posts that rank on the front page that was, I would say 80% ai. Wow. Google made a statement in 20, their stance in on that in 2022 was, Hey, no way. Don't use it. You're going to get

Brett:

No AI generated content. You will not work well for you. We don't want it on the internet basically.

Steve:

But in 2023, they soften their stance. They're like, it's okay, as long as it's not used in a spammy way. They don't want sites that are just purely ai. So the way we're using it is we're using it to avoid the blank page syndrome, generating outlines, and then within the outlines, maybe generating content for each bullet point and then having a human go through it, fact check it, and then kind of tailor it more for seo. What's unfortunate about ranking on seo, and I mentioned before we started recording that we actually increased our SEO rankings four x in the last six months, R

Brett:

Four X in the last six months, and you identified that's your most profitable source of traffic.

Steve:

Correct. And I, I'll just tell you this, just a way to rank Google today, and maybe you used to do this, and I, I've been doing it for the last decade, it's taken all the fun out of writing because Google just wants the answer in a succinct way. And so now that's the way we write all of our blog posts,

Brett:

Right? Yeah. It's not like creative pros, whimsical ps, things like that. Not so helpful and

Steve:

It's actually hurtful.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah. Because you, you're clouding the real answer or the substance that Google wants to find. Because if you look at what is Google's goal been from the beginning to organize the world's information and make it easily accessible and useful to everybody, and part of what they're doing is just trying to surface answers. And so the quicker you can answer a question that users are asking for, the better. And that's really what Google's all about, answering questions. So you need to help them by answering questions very clearly and succinctly. So,

Steve:

Hey, we're on the topic of ai. One thing we're using it for also is to write some of our email marketing autoresponder campaigns. Probably let, I hate writing that stuff just because it's just not my thing. And so usually I put my wife in charge and she hates writing, but we've actually trained the AI to sound like us, and you can actually have it write personal emails and just kind of tweak it a little bit as it goes to sound like. So how do

Brett:

You do that? You have to feed it some of your other content? Yeah, 10 of my emails. Write another one that sounds like me.

Steve:

So I shoot, I can't remember the terminology now right off the top of my head, but you feed in something that you've already written and you have it generate a voice paragraph, I think that's the term for it. And then you say, Hey, using this voice paragraph, write an email about this, and then it pumps something out.

Brett:

Interesting. So really you're maybe only giving it one piece to then base that voice paragraph right off of Very interesting. You can

Steve:

Actually, if you have access to the api, you can actually, so this is one thing I'm working on the side. Once this whole book launch is over with, I'm going to f I have a class that I've been running for over a decade, I'm going to transcribe all the videos and feed it in and create Steve Bot so that whenever someone has a question, they can ask this bot first and it's all my stuff and it should answer them with my answers as a first line with your

Brett:

Tone with your, with your answers you've already given. Exactly. Yeah. Not to do that. To build Steve Bot, do you have to use a paid version of Chad pt? I would assume, or you have to do use an upgraded version or

Steve:

Something? Yeah, you should get the paid version and just have access to the api. Yeah.

Brett:

Yeah, because I know if you use just the open free version or whatever, you're limited on the amount of content you can have it crawl or look at or assess or whatnot.

Steve:

Plus you want to be using chat G P T four, which is only available to paid customers got. It's actually significantly better for content. Okay. Okay. Yeah,

Brett:

Good to know. And then they break a record on subscriptions going from zero to millions of subscribers in record. It's nuts. Time for chat. GBT four.

Steve:

Yeah, it's been nuts. It's been nuts. Let me just tell you this chat, GB four is probably comparable to an average US writer, whereas chat GBT 3.5 was more along the lines of in international writer. Got it. That you would hire. So I mean, it's sad to say this, but I, I'm downsizing my writers because Chad GBT four, is that good? I'm keeping my editor who's just going to massage it. But I mean, what's scary about AI is I think a lot of jobs are going to be lost.

Brett:

Yeah. I mean, one thing on the more optimistic side of ai, I hear people saying things like, Hey, it's not going to replace anything. It's going to augment things. And I think to a certain degree that's true, where you'll always need people with good business ideas, you'll always need a creator. I've seen, you know, have mid journey that will create photos based on prompts and stuff. You always kind of need someone who's creative in giving those prompts. But I think there is an element where it's like, well yeah, but we don't need as many people. So maybe it's not replacing all the rider, but it's replacing some or you know what I've heard, I'm not a coder. I know you've got an engineering background, Steve, so you'd have a unique perspective here. But some people thinking, Hey, does this do away with really large develop large development teams? Do you just need one developer or two maybe? And then you use AI to generate everything else. And now you've got these smart developers that are just kind of checking and pulling things together and now it's 10 Xing, a hundred xing their output. So yeah, I think there is a scenario where you don't need as many people, which is encouraging from a profit standpoint, but kind scary from another standpoint as well.

Steve:

I mean, I keep in touch with my buddies in the hardware space and they're using it now to design hardware, so it's going to replace white collar jobs.

Brett:

Isn't that interesting? And I heard someone say this not too long ago that the fear was, hey, machines are just going to take away all the manual labor jobs. And that's true for some things like checkout. So someone working at point of sale at a retail store, you have the automated checkout stuff, but it's actually coming for white collar jobs in a much more aggressive fashion than blue collar jobs, which is super interesting.

Steve:

So start your own business folks. If you're

Brett:

Start listening to My Wife Quitter job podcast, start an e-commerce store, not selling linens, but something else, and then use AI to write your content. So talk about that. So four x four x your your SEO rankings in the last six months, is that strictly from just increasing the amount of content you're creating? What do you attribute that

Steve:

To? It actually was not, I would say a large portion of it was rewriting existing content in such a way that Google wants the answer. This is why I was alluding to earlier when it sucked all the life out. So I literally pulled out all the anecdotes, all the stories win for the featured snippet, which means you try to answer a question in a sentence and try to hit that featured snippet spot, did a bunch of link building, which still works, just talk about something the

Brett:

More. So it's totally works. And that's something we did from the very beginning all the way up to the end when we shut down our SEO practice just because it wasn't a passion anymore and nobody on our team wanted to do it. But link building was always the most effective. You get good back links and it's still true today, which is pretty crazy.

Steve:

It's still true, but it's a pain in the butt. And I'll, lemme just talk about some creative ways that we built some links. It's the simple thing that any one of you guys out there listening can do is to issue special discounts for military teachers and students and nurses and first responders. So we got links from military.com, all you got to do is say, Hey, I got a discount for the military, and then you reach out to all the military sites and they'll link to you and post it. Another way that we did it was I now have a Bumblebee Linen scholarship and my wife Quitter job scholarship. So I've got backings from a lot of top universities all over the US and we just give away a $500 scholarship every year for both companies.

Brett:

That's so crazy that I remember that idea from a long time ago. I don't know, thousand 12 or 13 or something insane like

Steve:

That. Oh, has it been around that long? I didn't. Okay, didn't. It's been a long, long

Brett:

Time. Maybe not quite that long, but a long time because those EDU links are super powerful, even if it's a no follow link. And so super smart. So you're doing the scholarship thing and for the cost of 500 bucks, one, you're doing something cool, you're giving a scholarship, but two, you're getting those high quality back links. That's super interesting. I hadn't heard anybody doing that for a while, but I love that.

Steve:

And another, a large part of it, and the problem with SEO is you do all these things, you don't know which one most had the most effect. The other thing we did was we carefully link sculpted everything to our money pages. And I basically found out the primary products that make the most money on Bumble B linens. And I put those in the menu and all the other categories, I put all on a separate page with one link, so they're not usually accessible anymore. And then all the scholarship page, the first responders page and all those coupon pages, we just linked to those money pages. So we're just sculpting everything towards,

Brett:

So you're getting that page ring coming to those scholarship pages and then you're sending those to the money pages. Yeah. Yeah. Love that, man. That's super, super short.

Steve:

So I don't know which one had the most effect, but

Brett:

Yeah, and that is the thing about seo, it's a little hard to, harder to pinpoint. You can't turn it on or off. You just got to do the work and keep doing the right things and then eventually you'll be rewarded with great rankings. But yeah, you do enough of the right things and you can do stuff like four extra traffic, which is amazing. So a lot of them, so you use chat G P T for then to look at existing content and rewrite it and pull things out and make

Steve:

It simple? No, actually for the existing content part, that was all kind of manual. Those was all, okay. Yeah, all new content is helped with Jet Chat g, PT four. Got it. Mainly because rewriting stuff and knowing what to take out requires a little bit of human intervention.

Brett:

Yeah, it does. It does. Yeah. That's pretty tricky.

Steve:

Yeah.

Brett:

Cool. Any other thoughts or predictions or insights on ai? I'm just curious other parts of your perspective there?

Steve:

I mean, the only thing I fear is I think this is going to be the year of spam. Think of how many people are just pumping out eBooks on Amazon right now. And as a result, I don't know if you've heard, but Amazon's been canceling a lot of people's Amazon KDP accounts really, if there's suspected of putting out low content books or regurgitated books, but just the sheer number of websites, blog posts, eBooks, it's just been astronomical.

Brett:

And then how do you feel like you are, so now you're browsing the web, do you want to read something that bot created or do you want to read something that a human crafted and they thought through and you're reading an author's life rather than something that's just cranked out by the machine? And yeah, it's

Steve:

Interesting. I think the Google search results have been crafted for many years now personally because everyone's gamified

Brett:

Because of that, because of kind of the spammy content that's out there.

Steve:

It has nothing to do with Chachi. BT really, it's been around for the last five years. I mean, if you Google something, it's all the same regurgitated stuff that's on the front page. And it's been a problem for a while. This is why I think Google's ripe for disruption. I mean, they're going to take a hit. So whatever this Project Magi thing they're working on, I'm pretty sure it's going to hurt their ad business.

Brett:

It it'll have to, and that's really what I heard about the reason Bard was delayed so much, which is their answer to Microsoft's version of chat, is because Google is 80%, 80 plus percent of their revenue is ad driven. Microsoft is a 2% of their revenue is ad driven. So they're like, who cares? We'll just let, let's go scorched earth on our AI offering through search and let's see what it does where Google's like, they've got to be productive if they can't kill the golden goose there. So yeah, we'll see. So Project Magi, we'll see what that looks like. If it's successful, it's awesome, but it's going to have to hurt their ad business. So yeah, man, I'm very curious to watch that unfold.

Steve:

And I'm curious how it's going to affect my ads too, right, that we run.

Brett:

Yeah, no

Steve:

Doubt. Here's the other way I think about it though. In the event, let's say they Nerf all the content sites by just giving the answer, well, guess what? I'm going to creating content and that's going to lead to less that they can feed in to their tools. So I'm just curious how that's going to play out.

Brett:

And then we also are like, well, okay, what if you disincentivize people from writing content, so then you're not feeding the AI good content. So then what does that do to future content? All kinds of interesting questions there, philosophical questions that it opens up. But hey man, this has been super fun. I know we're kind of coming to the end of our time. I want to do a couple things. Let's talk a little bit about the book. So Family First Entrepreneur, I know you, you've got a family, beautiful kids, very intentional about spending time with your family and then pouring into what's the most important part of your life, your family, not your business, but what is the book all about and who did you write it for?

Steve:

So the reason why I wrote the book, Brett, is because I feel like 99% of the entrepreneurship advice out there is either wrong or just given by a bunch of single dudes who have the time to work 80 hours a week. You's got

Brett:

To crush it, man, sacrifice all about the business,

Steve:

But that's not true. So I run two seven figure businesses. I work 20 hours a week pretty much, and I have one VA for the blog that handles almost everything. I believe that if you structure your business correctly and all you want to do is make a couple million dollars a year, then you can do it in such a way that you can spend time with your family and spend time with your loved ones. Now, of course, if you want to start something that's like a hundred million dollar business or whatnot, or a billion dollar business, you're going to need to hire a team and all that stuff. But most of us, honestly, and I don't know you're the reason why you started your business, Brett, but for me it was just all about freedom.

Brett:

I like paint, I like

Steve:

Paint, and hey, you paint

Brett:

Trouble.

Steve:

It's all about freedom. Most people don't go into this wanting to star a billion dollar company. And what happened to me was I just kind of lost track of that. So once Bumble VN started getting some traction, I started trying to grow that thing, scaling like crazy, and I ended up driving my wife crazy because we'd set these goals and we'd hit 'em, and then I'd move the bar more the next year. And I'm cheap. I'm a frugal Asian dude. I don't spend that much money. We make way more than we spend all. So what's the point of trying to grow the revenue, right?

Brett:

Every single year, just growing for the sake of growing is all you're doing at that point. Yeah,

Steve:

Exactly. So the book really is about how you can build a business that suits your lifestyle while still making a good lot amount of money and how you balance the two.

Brett:

I love it, man. I'm excited to read it. I bought a bunch of copies so I can give 'em to friends and stuff. I don't want to support you and your journey, so proud of you. I dunno if I'll put it on my fridge, I'll leave that to your mom, but I'm excited to get some copies and share them with people that are close to me. So for those that are listening who are like, okay, hey, yeah, that sounds awesome. I want to check out the book. How can they find it? I'm assuming it's Amazon and all over the place.

Steve:

So you can go to the Family first entrepreneur.com, and I'm giving away a lot of pre-order bonuses. So you'll get a three day workshop on e-commerce, get a two day workshop on how to make money with content because I podcast, YouTube and blog. And then I'm doing this Family First Challenge where I'm actually going to go in there and work with people for six weeks on how to help them figure out their sign hustle or just kind of talk about imbalances and how it can help them out with their businesses. So those are all just free pre or bonuses that you can get The Family First Entrepreneur, you can order it anywhere. Amazon probably the most common place.

Brett:

Cool. So I'll link to all that in the show notes or check it out there as well. If somebody's like, Hey, got to check out the podcast. Got to learn more about what Steve Chou is up to. Where can they connect with you? Because you're active on the socials as well, or is it mainly YouTube?

Steve:

Probably YouTube. Do you consider YouTube social?

Brett:

It is ish. Yeah. I think it's still lumped into the social platforms, but it is quite different. Yeah,

Steve:

I would say YouTube and Twitter.

Brett:

YouTube and Twitter. Got it.

Steve:

It primary places. Yeah.

Brett:

Awesome. YouTube and Twitter. And then Seller Summit and annual event. I think it's a must attend event for sellers that are trying to grow their Amazon business and D two C and want to hang out with a tight-knit community that's really growing and smart. Probably based on when this is going to be released at maybe after Seller Summit, but where working if people will find out more about Seller Summit, if not this year, next year.

Steve:

Yeah, let's just go to seller summit.com. And really the main reason to go is to hang out with Brett. He usually has this entourage around him, which prevents the riff raft from getting to him. But we have a no riff raf. We have a No Entourage policy at some no

Brett:

Entourage policy. So yeah, I will, I'll take the picture, I'll sign the, I'll sign whatever you give me. But no, I would love to hang out and it's an awesome event. So Steve Chou, ladies and gentlemen, Steve, this has been a blast. Your're, super smart guy, love hanging out with you. Also love that you typically poke fun at our mutual friend, Andrew, you Darien and E-Commerce Fuel, which yes, I love that in your almost every talk that you give you sneak in a couple of jabs at UD Darien, which really just warms my soul. I love that guy, but it's also fun to make fun of him.

Steve:

So it's so easy to make fun of him when he runs probably one of the most successful e-commerce forums and he doesn't sell anything himself.

Brett:

So there's an example right there. Another chap, you Darien. But no, that dude, dude's super smart. We're both investors in some of his projects and he runs an awesome forum and it does a good job of taking the flack that's given him. So that's awesome. So all right, man. Hey, really appreciate it. We'll have to do it again sometime. Looking forward to hanging out with you in Florida here in just a few weeks.

Steve:

Sounds good.

Brett:

Thank you. And as always, thanks for tuning in. We would love to hear from you. So what would you like to hear more of on the podcast? Any suggestions, ideas, guest ideas? We are open to that. And if you've not done it, hey, leave us a review. Or if you think someone else will find this show helpful, please share it. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

Aaron Sheehan and I go way back. We first met when Aaron used to work for an agency that OMG supported.

Now, Aaron is the Director of Competitive Strategy at BigCommerce. He brings a fresh perspective on the eCommerce industry, and a unique point of view on eComm platforms and the future of eComm technology.

Coincidentally, his office is only a quarter of a mile from mine. In hindsight, we probably should have recorded this show in person.

Here’s a look at what we cover:

• What is Headless, and how does it compare to Composable? Are these just buzzwords or trends that are here to stay?
• Aaron’s and my take on the state of eCommerce and why we see a prevailing “cautious optimism.” 
• The eCommerce trends Aaron is most excited about and what omnichannel means today (vs. what it meant 10 years ago).
• When should you consider upgrading your tech stack, and where does the BigCommerce offering fit in the marketplace?

‍

Mentioned In This Episode:

• Aaron Sheehan (LinkedIn)
• Aaron Sheehan (Twitter)
• Big Commerce
• Feedonomics
• Brett Curry (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (Twitter)

‍

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and today I'm talking to a guy that I go way back with. We've known each other, worked with each other since like 2014 or something insane like that. And so we're going to be talking about the commerce and tech stack and where e-commerce is headed and all kinds of other fun stuff. But I'm delighted to welcome to the show Mr. Aaron Sheehan. He's the director of competitive strategy at Big Commerce. Aaron, welcome to the show. And how's it going, man?

Derek:

That's going well. Thanks Brett. It's nice to see you again.

Brett:

Absolutely. What's hilarious it to me anyway and to us probably maybe others will find it funny. So we are both in Springfield, Missouri. Most of the guests on this show are la, New York, somewhere global. Who knows? But we are literally, I think if you looked out the window of your building, you would see my building. We are that close to each other. We probably could have just done this podcast in the same room, but here we are in our respective offices quarter of a mile away or something. So it's awesome.

Derek:

Your guests might have the belief that Springfield is really tiny now that because of we've grown know that we can see each other's office. It's a little bit bigger than that. It's passive. It's a little bit than there not see Brett's house if he, yeah, closes the lines. I can't see what he's having for dinner.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, it's not that small of a town. Missouri State University is here. It's the home of Bass Pro, it's a home of O'Reilly Automotive. There's stuff happening in Springfield, Missouri, a greater metro's, a half a million or something like that. And the total, I used to be in tv, so I think in TV demographic or designated market areas. So we're like number 70 in the us so beds size market maybe a little bit bigger. But yes, we are in Springfield together, which is super awesome. And so I want to know this, I'm sure others are wondering this, Aaron, but what is the director of competitive strategy? What do you do? What does that look like?

Derek:

That's a great question. I have not yet quite figured it out myself. So I just hit one year last week at Big Commerce and I keep doing things here and eventually somebody will tell me what my actual job is. What do I have you do

Brett:

Here? Well, I do things,

Derek:

Yeah, so it's actually, it's a sort of series of duties and concerns, but the primary role of the director of competitive strategy is to advise the business, the big commerce business on what our competitors are doing, what the larger market is asking for, and how we can best be competitive with big commerce and phenomics in speaking to the merchants and brands whom we serve. So that takes a lot of different flavors. So there's a sort of research hat that you wear when you're going through and trying to figure out listening to podcasts like this one, what are the trends? What is happening in e-commerce? What direction is the economy taking the business? There's also a piece of that that is sales enablement. So competitive intelligence is the sexy part of the job, and that usually manifests as enabling our sellers, our partner managers, our account executives to have accurate up-to-date information on how to position big commerce properly in deals and understanding then and advising back to our product and engineering team and merger acquisition team, where do we need to be going? Not where is the puck, but where is the puck going to be? And that's a really, really overused analogy.

Brett:

Yeah, it is, but it's still good. Get tip that Green Gretzky. Love that guy's. Classic.

Derek:

It's classic. Yeah, it's classic. So that's a lot of what it is. And then there's a certain amount of publicly representing big commerce evidence on podcasts and find shows like this one.

Brett:

Yes, I love it. I love it. And that's why I'm excited about this show really because I want to talk about where you view e-commerce is headed. And I'll share my perspective as well. Even if listeners of the show are perfectly happy with their tech stack right now, there's always this thought of what's coming, what's next? What do I need to be thinking about? Do I go headless, do I add to my tech stack? Do I add apps? Do I, do I re-platform? What do I do? So understanding how to where things are because yeah, we have to consider where the industry is headed, where the puck is going so to speak, and we got to skate to it. I also love how you answered that where you're like, I don't know, we're still figuring it out because I don't know if you are this way Aaron, and you're a really smart guy. When I'm hanging out with family or other people, they're like, so what is it that you do? I looked at your website or I did this, but I have no idea what you do. Do you struggle with explaining what you do at family reunions and things like that?

Derek:

Very much so. Very much so. It helps. E-commerce is something that's pretty accessible to most people. Almost everyone has some engagement with the industry. It's all the plumbing and stuff that's sort of behind the experience that is a little opaque to a lot of folks, but it definitely can be challenging, but it's been worse in the past, so this is actually not too bad.

Brett:

It's getting better. Yeah, it's funny, my niece sister's daughter was telling all her friends at school, she lives in Kansas City that her uncle Brett was one of the owners of Google. And so I was super famous there for a little while. It was unbeknownst to me, I don't know where I'm hiding all the cash and all the stock options. So there you go. You heard it here. First misconceptions as to what we do in digital marketing, but the way I like to explain it say we help e-commerce companies get more customers and scale, and I know you help navigate and help e-commerce companies make good business decisions and then you help big commerce make good business decisions. And so we're going to be diving into that just a little bit. First of all, and we talked about this a little bit before we hit record, I was really keen on big commerce and paid a lot of attention to big commerce kind of my very early days in E-com.

And then the whole world shifted to Shopify, at least the area of e-commerce that OMG primarily plays in. But I got invited to the spoke at event in Miami, met Juan Jato and Dan on the big commerce team. They invited me to the partner summit in Austin last year. That's where you and I reconnected. Even though we live, our offices are quarter of mile way and we had to meet up in Austin, but I was so impressed by what Big Commerce is doing and the roadmap and the ideal client profile that the big commerce is building for. And so I was pretty excited about it. And I think not a lot of people know what Big Commerce is doing, but why are you excited about commerce and where it's headed?

Derek:

Yeah, great question. So I've wanted to work at Big Commerce for some years because I was on the other side of the table for many years as an agency partner doing implementations. And I know right at the time in 20 14, 20 15, that was primarily Magento, right?

Brett:

Yeah, Magento. But that's still the glory days of Magenta. It

Derek:

Really was. And so it was the best option for an awful lot of people. The platform became very enterprise grade and frankly a little on the overcomplicated side for a lot of merchants. And I know you felt that as well on the piece when you're just trying to get a product fee to work and you've got to employ a team of five developers to figure out how to make it it reliable and map attributes stuff. And for most merchants, all that's overhead that's coming out of your margins directly. The more time that a brand spent as an IT company, the less they are spending on and growing their funnel, optimizing conversions and adding channels and broadening reach. It

Brett:

Be great to spend that redeploy that cash into product development or product enhancement or improving the customer experience or marketing, getting more customers rep. Oh wow,

Derek:

What have an idea. Yeah,

Brett:

Yeah, A little self-serving but also true.

Derek:

Very much so. This podcast paid for by OMG v, the what oppressed me about Big Commerce at the time that I started becoming I choose sort of became aware of Big Commerce and started working with them back many years ago. The platform was very mature for what it enabled and the way it was built was very much allowed for an easy transition from a Magento environment to big commerce. There's a lot of feature parody, a lot of the concepts were the same. And it was stuff that you know, mentioned Shopify earlier. Shopify didn't have and still doesn't in many cases. Some things I consider sort of basic e-com and the people were very warm and very knowledgeable here. It was definitely a company of entrepreneurial hustlers but who are also kind. And I think you know, say that and you're like, what does that mean in the business context?

Why do I care? When you're on the partnership side of it and you're working, you're going into delivery to solve problems for your merchants, your joint merchants, you actually want people you trust on the other side of that table kind of doing business together. And that's not necessarily the norm in tech even. And that really sort of stuck with me as I liked working with these folks. I hope I can do it again. And so I took another agency, I went to another agency, went to the big commerce partnership program a second time, and then post Covid or during covid had the opportunity to come over here finally and work from Springfield, Missouri, worked for Big Commerce, crazy Good for you, and jumped to the chance to do it because I've always liked working with Big Commerce as folks and the product and I saw an opportunity and it jumped on it real quick because I wanted to be here.

Brett:

Love it, love it. And I really like that perspective too. And this is something we try to do at OMG and I think the best agencies, the best brands also embrace this where you can be really business savvy and have smart strategy and be sophisticated there, but also be kind and be a good partner and be a good human. And I think that actually works really, really well in today's environment. And so this idea of collaboration and multiple people winning, it's a real thing. And I know it's the same thing, hanging out with the big partner or big partner, big commerce partner Summit and other things. Really dig the team and the vibe going on there, which will look great. So let's pivot a little bit. Let's talk about e-commerce globally. And you mentioned to me before we record, you're on the road a lot, you're going to shows you're at Shop Talk.

We were just at, I was not, but we were just at Prosper and Etel West and a bunch of other things. So we get to rub shoulders and talk to merchants. We are in an interesting environment, Aaron, right where you got inflation, which is maybe improving, maybe not. You got people talking about a credit crisis, you still have a conflict in Ukraine. You got all these things that there really have created some uncertainty. You got bank failures. And so there there's a lot of negative news and I see people that I really trust on LinkedIn. My buddy Jeremy Horowitz, I think you're connected with him as well. Like gorgeous talking about, hey, there's some real things to be concerned about as a business owner and as a brand right now. But also as I go to events, and I haven't been to one in a few months, but as I talk to brand owners, people are still growing. They still got their foot on the accelerator and yes, cautious about what's going on, but I think the best brands understand, hey, there's always opportunity to grow. There's always opportunity to improve. But how would you describe the current state of, what's your global outlook on e-commerce right now?

Derek:

Bullish still, we're long past the point at which e-commerce is sort of a novelty channel.

Brett:

Yeah. Will it stick? Will it not

Derek:

Stick, right? Is this internet thing for real? I don't know. We're so far on that curve through it. Covid provided. I think Covid was a moment of maybe wild fiduciary optimism over sampling on a white vent in that the growth projection E-commerce grew incredibly fast in a very short period of time. And if you jumped on the bubble expecting the bubble to continue at that pace, you probably feel like we're in the middle of a giant depression right now. But realistically, if you took Covid out and looked at the projections, e-commerce is still ahead of where it was in 2019 by a healthy amount and projected to be higher in 20 this year, 2024. And going forward, these aren't going away. We're transacting on phones, we're still transacting on computers. I think

Brett:

A quick side note there too, Aaron, because we did the pseu at omg, we invested in our team and hired pretty dramatically during the pandemic to tr. We just saw e-commerce taking off. Then e-commerce slowed down a little bit. But if that was you and then you, you're seeing a bit of that retraction, Hey, you're in the same company as Shopify, you're in the same boat as Google, you're in the same boat as Amazon. Really All the big tech companies have had to pull back a little bit and even engage in layoffs and things like that. So it can sort of feel like, oh wow, it's doom and gloom. But if you look at Google added something like a hundred thousand employees during the pandemic or whatever. So yes, they've let go of some people, but still headcount is way up over 2019. And I think that that kind of tracks with e-commerce growth is still up over 2019. It's just slowed since the height and fury of the pandemic growth.

Derek:

Yeah, and I think where that's become most acute is in sort of a certain amount of privately held VC bat companies just because valuations went kind of nutty there for a lot of folks for a period of time. So now you mentioned going to shows. I was at NRF in New York, which was great because last year's NRF was omicron, so it's sort of, Sloan didn't happen. There was no very little at attendant. So this was record breaking year at N RF in New York, the Javits Center, tens of thousands of attendees went to Shop Talk in Vegas. Just got back from that a couple of weeks ago, about 8,000 people there for that. So the mood is definitely, I say guarded optimism from, yeah, it's guarded optimism. People are guarded in the sense that the easy money, I'm just going to slap my business plan down and go shop it out to a VC firm and they're going to get an offer sheet, they're going to be fighting over me trying to, that's gone or at least slowed down quite a bit.

And valuations are down to, even for publicly traded companies, it's down to sort of a healthy amount. But very few companies are like, I'm going out of business now because they're, nobody wants selling. Generally speaking, if you're in tech, people want what you're selling. And if you're a merchant, as long as you have, you've diversified your channel offerings well enough so that all your eggs are not in one D to C basket. And we can talk maybe about that a little bit more. I think you'll be fine. The challenges are more operational now for a lot of folks as they adapt. It's a, it's change management. That's always the hard part for companies. There happens to be a lot of change happening in successive waves and so people are just dizzy from trying to pivot, but that doesn't mean they've fallen over. So it's just more work.

Brett:

And I love that guarded optimism and that that's exactly what we're seeing. We still have a healthy flow of merchants reaching out to MG Commerce asking for growth strategies on Google and on Amazon and elsewhere. But there's also this trend of people more focused on business fundamentals. We want profitable growth. We want to be a healthy business, not just throwing money everywhere because we can't keep up with growth. And I think brands are functioning and needing to function more like healthy businesses, which is the way it should be anyway. And so that's definitely a trend as well. I want to talk a little bit about platforms and technology because, and I used to hang out at I R C E back when that was a hot show and we were getting to know each other win when Magenta was rocking and rolling. What are some of the shifts you've seen in terms of tech stack and platforms? What has kind of changed in that regard? Since when, and I first started hanging out back in the earlier days of e-commerce,

Derek:

Right? The good old days.

Brett:

The good old days.

Derek:

Yeah. I feel like the obvious answer to that is software as a service. The move from on-premise, sort of open sourced or even closed source platforms like Oracle, atg, magenta, WooCommerce, moving towards software as a service, as a delivery model. So the public cloud became a thing and then multi-tenant SaaS became a thing. And the value proposition of being able to, I almost apply insurance math to businesses, which is law of large numbers, which says if I get enough people together in one data center, I'm mitigating each individual merchant has their risk mitigated in terms of security, uptime and stability. And your brands and your businesses no longer have to be many IT companies or higher many IT companies and full service agencies to host, run, operate a complicated piece of tech stack. Definitely. I think it's certainly had the most impact in the platform in MarTech spaces.

So if you look at how email campaigns are managed, if you look at attribution software, if you look at platforms, customer loyalty ified, now it is, and it's even beginning to affect your legacy platforms like ERPs and OMSs, right? You're starting to see the back office is now catching up to the last 10 years of innovation and tech, which is fantastic. And long past time it's hard to find cobalt developers these days. So I would say the ation is the biggest sort of tech change. We may talk about it later quite a bit. We can say about composability and headless as well. I think the jury's still a little bit out on pieces of that and who that's for and why and why it matters. So I wouldn't say that that's necessarily, it generates 80% of the hashtag thought leadership on LinkedIn. Yeah, it does, but it generates maybe 5% of the actual implementations in the world, right? Here's definitely something to sort of explore there, but definitely SAS is unquestioned. I don't, yeah, yeah. On-premise software sort of ruling the roost it did back when we were walking around an I R CGE in 20 14, 20 15.

Brett:

So a couple things I'll kind of key in on that, totally agree with you SaaS, it taken over and one of the things that I believe I heard at the last big commerce partner summit was the belief and the position that kind of an open framework or an open model one back in the on-prem days when really it was probably a better experience for you as a merchant and for the user if you secured your own hosting and had an on-prem option on-premises option like magenta or whatever. Now it really is SaaS and there's so many benefits there. You talked about insurance, talk about there's speed, all these things. And I think the commerce belief is that more open is going to win on the SaaS side of things as well. Is that kind of a line or any perspective or insight on that?

Derek:

Yeah, very much so. One of the reasons I'm here, coming out of many eight years of being in the W ecosystem is I believe in open and flexible and giving choices to merchants and brands to shape their digital future the way they want. If you talk, a lot of times you'll talk to folks who are in on another platform that, where they're at the mercy of that platform team's roadmap. It's hard to innovate, it's hard to find developers who can work on it or it's limited in what it can do, or it's got pretty strong guardrails around key pieces of it. Like our friends in Canada with a green bag, they [inaudible] Yeah, don't think about it too deeply. I

Brett:

Don't have no idea

Derek:

What their approach to payments and FinTech and look at those, those eight Ks and you kind of realize where the money's actually coming from. And so there are definitely plenty of brands and merchants for whom I've had this conversation many times, flexibility is actually a negative. And I saw this on Magento as well. Too much choice, too much optionality, and it bred analysis paralysis or a lack of maturity maybe to be able to assess where something, what should be, where I should depart from the norm and where I should just stick with the, the templated approach. The platform gave me

Brett:

It limited speed and maybe cause people to go down the path of spending too much money and when really just needed something simple, just get the products up online and sell 'em. Be, yeah, go simple.

Derek:

But some you can overcorrect on that you can overcorrect and go to a very safe platform where innovation is, maybe it meets your needs today, but innovation is challenging and you're kind of like you have vendor lock in. And I think if there's anything that that's probably at the heart of that headless and composable movement, it's people being wary of vendor lock in because we've all been through, I think the phase of, I fall in love with this product and then it gets bought and it gets acquired and rolled into a larger stack and then silently dies, right?

Brett:

Or just maybe doesn't innovate, right? We've been seeing this, I, I've got some friends and I'm more on the marketing side, not the tech side, but even WordPress. WordPress used to be the platform. It was, I don't even remember the percentage was 30% of the internet was, excuse me on, and it's kind of fading. I hear most people advising don't do it when it comes to WordPress. So almost every platform or channel can have its day or there's the risk of the downfall of that platform, and then you potentially are stuck depending on how you built on it.

Derek:

Oh, totally agree. Although in full transparency, my 11 year old daughter has a WordPress, so I mean

Brett:

Full put, WordPress is not dead yet, it's just not. Maybe it was on a meteoric rise and it's maybe on the plateau or decline at this point. Yep. Let's do this here because you mentioned headless a couple of times, and if you're about our age, we're not talking about the sleep of hollow dead headless horsemen type of thing. I want to get your perspective on what headless is because I still think there's a lot of people that are confused about it. And so want to hear your kind of explanation and then what is the trend there? And I think you kind of nailed it where you said, Hey, everybody's talking about it. It's 80% of the headlines, but maybe about 5% of implementations are actually headless. But what is it and what's your perspective on it?

Derek:

Yeah, no, great question. And what I've had to grapple with quite a bit in the last year, I, I'll draw, I'll start maybe by illustrating what I consider two terms that get used kind of interchangeably in that the sort of LinkedIn content world that we live in, headless and composability or headless and composable. So the way I describe it to people is headless is an adjective that you would apply to a piece of software, and it's all it means is that that software, usually it's applied to an e-commerce platform or a web website, a CMS or something like that, but it's a backend without a front end. So it would be an e-commerce platform where I have a management utility or APIs and I can put my products into it and describe my products and access my customers and fill orders and things like that. But the interface, the screens, the elements, the buttons, the forms, that's not part of the platform. Instead, the headless platform is meant to have a different system on the front. So back in the day, way back in the day, for instance, we used to do an agency you and I worked with, we used to do a lot of Magento in the back and WordPress on the front. Gary would be,

Brett:

Yeah, and quick shout out, we don't mind to mention it at all, but Classy Lama was the agency, that's where we met. So shout out to Kurt and the crew and the glory days of e-commerce. Man, I thoroughly enjoyed my time at Clai Lama. I know you did as well. But yeah, there was a lot of magenta on the back end, WordPress on the front end, which we kind of dogged both of those platforms on this podcast. But anyway, yeah, continue that thought.

Derek:

Well, and that headless framework means that I'm picking a system that is maybe better for representing front end content but doesn't have the maturity to handle complex data on the back. So I take the system that's better for handling complex data like category taxonomy and product attributes, product media and images and long form content and stuff like that. And I'm saying I'm authoring all of that in this complicated system back here. But the thing that I'm going to use to build pages, maybe I want to drag and drop editor, maybe I want better sort of media management tools. Maybe I want something that's more user friendly and less sort of dev heavy in how it operates. I can basically hack glue those two systems together, and I go to a website and it's at my domain.com and I click the store button, and now I am@store.my domain.com.

So I was on WordPress, then I hit the store, do my domain.com, and now I'm on a big commerce or a Magento page. So headless simply means a backend with no front end, that's it. Either labels a piece of software, composability or composable is the adjective you would use for an entire tech stack for a company being made up of pieces that are purpose built to do one thing specifically. So in a composable landscape, I probably have a headless system, maybe multiple headless systems, and I also have a separate front end and maybe I have a separate product information management system, a separate dam or digital asset management system. I have lots of maybe have loyalty or promotions running r running, I've search and merch. I'm using Clav or Algolia or something. I'm taking lots of services and I'm knitting them invested

Brett:

In class in these individual areas.

Derek:

Yes. And I'm knitting Symp

Brett:

Symphony of e-commerce.

Derek:

That's perfect. Yeah, great analogy. And so I would use multiple headless systems to make a composable stack. And where you get the confusion is that there's two words get used interchangeably and it feels a little bit like one is meant to replace the other. And I think vendors, we're probably as guilty of this as anybody else, don't necessarily do our buyers any favors because you've got to shovel your way through all the marketing speak to get to the reality. I think we've gotten a lot better about this, but definitely I see plenty of it still plenty of confusion and FUD on the topic.

Brett:

Yeah, dude, the great explanation, love that headless is really a backend without a front end. And then composable is really joining all kind of the best in class or the things that work for different business use cases and combining them, composing them. So really, really good explanation there. So yeah, do see, are the headlines just going to fade away or is this move, I'm guessing the composability that that's probably really a real direction that the industry is headed or what's your perspective on that?

Derek:

Yeah, I think about this a lot and depending on how I wake up in the morning, I might have a different view, but at come moment I act totally fair. You're right. I don't think it's going anywhere, which sounds maybe a little counter to my sort of crack, about 80% of the thought leadership with the 5% of the, I don't think it's going anywhere. And the reason I don't think it's going anywhere is that platforms J, all the innovation now to speaking specifically about e-commerce here at this point, the innovation, the new platforms being created or the platforms being improved, they all fit the composable model. We knew we're part of the maline because

Brett:

They know that's how you get product adoption is by being composable. If I'm creating this new novel thing that has value in the marketplace, it's got to be composable and no one's going to buy it.

Derek:

Yeah, exactly. So think when I survey the landscape, I spent a lot of time by virtue of this job looking at other e-commerce platforms and how they're built and who therefore I don't think composability, headless is going away simply because there's too many people, there's too many platforms self-identifying that way. And what will likely happen at some point is there will be some kind of VC or private equity rollup of multiple best in breed, and you'll create a brand new sort of monolith of maybe multiple solutions and different new different things kind of doing business as one that's not new to business. Brett, there's two ways to make money in business bundling and unbundling. So we are in the middle of a big unbundling, which is the coal composability thing. At some point there's going to be a rebundling, but architecturally, I don't think it's going to go back to being the way that a magenta or a woo or something got started where it's completely different

Brett:

Environments that don't communicate with each other, stuff that that's likely dead.

Derek:

Exactly. Monoliths. I don't see anybody trying to build the next monolith, which makes me question whether or not we'll see another one. And so look at the product direction of where Adobe is taking the sort of leftover bits of Magento. They're not trying investing in making it a monolith, they're investing in making it a microservices based platform that connects to the rest of Adobe's services. So there's not a lot of people sort of advocating for it. So I think what will happen is I think platforms like us Big Commerce are going to keep leading the way on making headless composable more accessible. Because that's the biggest barrier right now is it can be complicated and it can be inaccessible and it absolutely is not the right choice for a lot of people. But I do think that over time what will happen is headless composability will get more commoditized and it will become more accessible to a wider variety of merchants who are going to want the benefits that approach provides without all of the overhead that goes with it. That's my guess. Right. Makes

Brett:

Sense. Totally makes sense. So I want to, in just a minute, I want to talk about some of the trends you're excited about and I have think some good perspectives I want to share there. Before we do though, I just want to, because I think a lot of people don't know this, what position is big commerce carving out in the marketplace? Who's big commerce trying to serve and really where is big commerce headed? And I know you've got a unique perspective because you view the competitive landscape as what you do on a daily basis, but talk to people about that who maybe just haven't heard from Big Commerce in a while.

Derek:

Yeah, no, that thanks for the opportunity to pitch. Yeah, so big commerce big, I think you've mentioned this a couple of times, both off air and on air. We kind of fly under the radar for a lot of people. There are other platforms that get a lot more with bigger marketing spends I think that get more attention. We've been around for quite a while, started off as an s and b platform and have grown into an enterprise level platform. I would say that we squarely serve, if you ask Gardner and Forrester and stuff that we serve, the mid-market, if you were to ask them, they would say we serve the mid-market, which that am ambiguous term, that means whatever anybody needs it to mean in any given. But I would describe it as largely speaking that 5 million to a billion dollars in on online G gmv, right?

That's who we're not trying to be sap really no desire to become sort of a conglomerate, publicly traded. We're publicly traded, but we serve b2b, B2C merchants equally well. About 35, 40% of our customer base I believe is doing b2b. So we do quite a lot, lot of direct brands, but we are really built more for more, I would say semi complicated channel makeups we're built around the premise that merchants should be able to, to, we should be encouraging them to sell on every channel, every marketplace, every digital property that they possibly can to diversify, to reduce that risk of an economic slowdown in one channel, sort of tanking the whole business, which we're kind of seeing in some of those venture backed like D two C brands that got kicked off in 20 18, 20 19, 20 20. If you didn't have an in-store strategy, if you didn't have a marketplace strategy, you're kind of feeling it right now. We're there to serve those merchants as well as we can by taking what is a complicated series of I need to manage multiple web properties from one backend. I need to manage multiple marketplaces and add networks from one backend. We figured out how to make that actually pretty straightforward and simple. And so we're best serving mid-market merchants who are growing into multiple channels or established brands that are already there and they're usually looking to get off of some kind of antiquated piece of highly expensive legacy software and move to something more modern.

Brett:

And that was one of the things that really spoke to me as I was at that partner summit was this focus on that. And I think another point of clarification, one thing I heard someone mentioned was that in Ian, even more like in the 10 million to a couple hundred million range, that's a real sweet spot for big commerce. I know you can work with people that are a little bit smaller and of course that are bigger, but I think that that's where a lot of growth in e-commerce is going to come from. That's the type of business that OMG commerce wants to work with. I think there's a lot of exciting things with that size merchant that you can do either as an agency or as a platform. Yeah. So then when should someone, if someone's out there, they're maybe not exactly loving the platform they're on, when should they start thinking, maybe I should check out Big Commerce, maybe I should look at what it has to offer. What are some pain points that often pop up the big commerce has an interesting solution for?

Derek:

Yeah, great question. Adding channels a or and optimizing existing channels has a been one. So we acquired a company called Phenomics about a year and a half ago. Phenomics does optimization and management of product data across ad networks and marketplaces and makes it really, really easy to spin up and turn on, Hey, do you want to get into Target? Plus, do you want get into Amazon or one of the many Amazons, do you want to go to Google, Walmart? Do you want to advertise on TikTok meta? Like there's about 500 I think supported sort of channels between marketplaces and ad networks. Making that simple MA and making that optimized so that it performs really well, kind of using AI to optimize that mix of product data works better for, I would say more high SKU count merchants. Usually if you've only selling 50 SKUs, you probably don't need AI to optimize your feed.

You should be able to do that yourself in an hour or two. But if you're maybe a little bit larger, you need that help. I would also say on the platform side, we get a lot of people who start calling us when they start hearing no from their existing vendors because maybe that vendor happens to have very tight opinions about how the checkout should look and doesn't allow custom customizing the checkout. We also get a lot of folks, we have a very large office in London, so we do, I don't know if Europe is your target audience, but we have a lot of expansion in Europe because we're very friendly to regional fulfillment and payment models worldwide. So because we're so global, we get a lot of folks who are doing cross border and don't, they're not necessarily looking to just outsource that to one of the many sort of providers that sort of handles cross-border outsourcing.

They want to do it themselves. And we also get a lot of people looking to explore headless for the first time. To be honest, definitely, I'm going back to the earlier statement. We have more headless implementations than any other partner in the mock clients. Yep. Because we're so gosh darn and easy to use, Brett and so accessible. And because we have a front end, actually, you don't have to, I mean most of our customers aren't using as headless. You don't ever need to think about it with us. But if you do or you want to, you're curious about exploring it with us, you can simply deploy us one whole big commerce get started and then slowly pull stuff back over time as your business demands. There's really no other platform that allows you to mix and match in a composer, like slowly transition to composable. So I like to tell people we're the last e-commerce platform you should ever need because we enable pretty much every method of selling on any channel that anybody wants with big Commerce. So if that sounds appealing to a merchant, then they should probably give us a call.

Brett:

Dude, that's a good line. The last e-commerce platform you'll ever need. And a close second is we're just so gosh darn easy I think. I don't know what marketing is going to go with, but I think you should pitch both those taglines and as long as you get credit for them, I think one of those will work. So perfect. Awesome. We're coming up against time a little bit, but I want to spend a little bit of time here. What are some trends you're excited about? And you kind of alluded to one big one that I know we both want to chime in on a little bit, but what are you excited about in the world of e-commerce and trends that we're seeing?

Derek:

I'm really excited about how omnichannel is being a redefined right now among merchants and vendors in the space. So back when you and I were met in 20 14, 20 15, you'd go to I R C E and everybody was omnichannel, right? It's not everybody's composable now. Everybody was omnichannel. Omnichannel, totally. It didn't matter what you were selling. It was omnichannel. Omnichannel,

Brett:

All of which were all the channels. All the channels,

Derek:

All the channels. And what it meant though, a lot back then was my point of sale, talked to my inventory management system, which talked to my e-commerce platform, endless aisle. What if I use my stores as fulfillment centers? What if I shared customer data between a digital customer and a web? Because it was very siloed, still is for a lot of brands. The web store is very siloed operationally from the physical store. And so omnichannel meant things like Bluetooth beacons in your store that would connect to shopper's phones as they were walking through and show them 360 views of things or let them earth stuff that wasn't on the shelf like beaconing. And then it's changed a little bit and now it feels like it's more about advertising and transacting on other platforms, digital platforms assigned besides just owned web properties. And so now you see omnichannel deployed to not only mean what I just described previously, but also is now inclusive of selling on social media networks, of which there's a new one every couple of weeks it seems like, and transacting on new marketplaces, of which there's a new one every couple of weeks.

Cause everybody's building their own marketplace now. And so there's a lot of that. Unified commerce is the buzzword I saw at N R F and Shop Talk this year earlier, meaning it's just commerce. It's just

Brett:

Commerce. That's the beauty. Just commerce. Yeah.

Derek:

Yeah. It's just commerce and the brand needs to be anywhere where its potential customers are. And so you have a lot to manage and optimize, but the opportunity to grow is actually huge, even given the economic conditions that we're in because people are everywhere and they're fragmented, and so you've got to go find 'em, go optimize your message for that channel. But the channels are robust enough, the reporting is robust enough and the audiences are large enough and you can actually make money. You have to work pretty hard not to make money. So I'm excited.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that perspective because you're never going to hear a shopper say, I just want an omnichannel merchant. If there could just be some omnichannel offerings, they don't think about that. But they want products to be easily purchased. If they're on Facebook and they just want to shop and they want to buy right there, they want to buy right there. If they prefer to shop on Amazon, they want your product to be there. If there's some products that they want to buy in store, they want to buy it in store. And what we are seeing, and I know you're seeing this too, is that the pure play D two C brand where all they do is sell on their.com, that's probably not the path to get where you ultimately want to go, whether that's long-term profitability or to sell your brand or whatever. Usually you're going to need to go multichannel or omnichannel or this unified commerce of right.

My.com is crushing utilizing Google and YouTube and all that the Google ecosystem has to offer. I'm maximizing my opportunities on Facebook and Meta and Instagram and other social platforms, and I'm maybe selling on shop on Facebook and I'm maximizing marketplaces. And yes, they're growing, obviously Amazon is by far the biggest, but you got to think about Walmart and Target and you guys are really closely integrated with Target and there's lots of exciting things right there. Don't sleep on the target, the marketplace, it's not huge. It's not for everybody, but we've seen merchants on the target marketplace really do well, really move some volume of products there, which is pretty exciting. And to be in store, there's some products people like to buy in store. But yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Aaron. I

Derek:

Was just, Hey, target plus is invite only to my understanding, unless that's changed and we are able to,

Brett:

Yes, I have that back door, a little bit of that int

Derek:

Rope. We can get you under the velvet rope to the v I P lounge. Here's what I'm saying. Yeah,

Brett:

Yeah, just talk to Aaron and actually OG through, we're connected to the Heat omics crew, and so we can help you get in there as well. And yeah, shout out to Brian Rosen, one of the founders of Theos. He was on this show back in 2018, if you can believe that here in Shein. He's, he's an OG that Brian Rosen

Derek:

Spent the thought later, Brett.

Brett:

Yeah, before it was even Trip, before everyone was even talking omnichannel. We were going right here on this show. So, man, there's more things I want to ask. Aaron. I'm kind of bummed we're up against time here just a little bit, but how can people connect with you? Because you seem to me in any way, and to be pretty active on LinkedIn and other places. So where can people find you and those who want to just learn, explore, stay up on how tech stacks are developing and things like that? How should they find you?

Derek:

Well, if you're in Springfield, look out your window. You could probably

Brett:

Small place you, you'll see 'em small. Stick his hand.

Derek:

Yeah, I'd live on top of the water tower real easy in the spot. No, I'm, I'm probably too online. So I'm on Twitter and I'm on LinkedIn primarily, so I'm pretty easy to find Aaron Sheehan on either of those. I've had that handle for a while. I'm also, it's Aaron dot sheehan big commerce.com. If you want to drop me an email. I do eventually read all my emails, but probably a LinkedIn or Twitter DM is the fastest way

Brett:

To get ahold of me. Totally, totally. That's just cooler. You want to just drop into somebody's inbox, uninvited necessarily

Derek:

Price. Why isn't the DM

Brett:

Dms slot into the dms that's totally acceptable these days. And then those that are interested in phenomics or big commerce, how should they go further there?

Derek:

Big commerce.com, phenomics.com, there are prominent calls to action on both of those sites. You can certainly also, you can talk to Brett at OMG if you're interested in learning more about Phenomics as well through his fine agency and team. And you can of course, reach out to me directly if you want to get ahold of anybody at Big Commerce, I can connect you pretty quickly, whether you're an agency looking for a partnership or you're a merchant who's interested in getting a demo or maybe just learning more about the platform.

Brett:

Aaron Sheehan, ladies and gentlemen, Aaron, this has been a blast. I wish we had more time. There's more things you want to talk about. But all that means is we just need to schedule round two here before too

Derek:

Long. In person.

Brett:

In person, in person. Yes. That is our quasi promise to you, listener. And I'm sure that carries a lot of weight with Next time we do this show, actually, we've got two of these microphones, so we could set up a little studio here. I can slide over. We could be here in the same studio and only add about a minute and a half to your commute. And let's do it. Let's do it. So, all right, man. Really appreciate it. Yep. Take care. Awesome. And thank you for tuning in. We could not do this show without you. And hey, we'd love your feedback. So would you like to hear more of on this show? And if you have not done it yet, we'd love to see that review on iTunes. It helps other people find the show. It makes my day. And hey, I think I'm going to start reading some of those reviews on this show, just for fun, just to call people out. So with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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What got you here won’t get you there. 

What will it take to reach your next big breakthrough?

Whether or not we want to admit it, we all have limiting thought patterns that create a sort of blindness, preventing us from seeing breakthroughs. 

I first met Will when he was the Head of Growth for Organifi. He helped grow the brand from an $18 million per year run rate to a $100 million per year run rate in short order. 

In today’s episode, Will Hughes wants to help you think differently. And not just a philosophical kind of thinking, but big, business-altering, breakthrough kind of thinking. 

Here’s a look at what we cover:

• The remarkable story of the Hollywood Blacklist and how we can find treasure in what others are rejecting.
• Using creative thinking as a competitive advantage.
• How to avoid being a copycat (while still paying attention to competitors).
• What Google vs. Yahoo can teach us as entrepreneurs. 
• The power of reticular activators.

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• Liquid Mind Masterclass
• Will Hughes (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (Twitter)

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Transcript:
Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the eCommerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO OMG Commerce, and today we have a very unique episode. I think this will blow your mind. I think it will unlock some things for you that will be extremely beneficial. This'll be a ton of fun to listen to. I've gone through this material, I've seen one of these courses. It's fantastic. And so my guest today is Will Hughes. What's up Will? How you doing, man? Welcome to the show.

Will:

Yeah, man, great to be here. Great to see you again.

Brett:

Absolutely. And so just a quick intro so folks know who you are and how we met, but we worked together when you were the head of growth at Organify. Yes. When you were there for years, you kind of saw that really the explosion of that brand and it went from just a kind of cool little brand to something really massive. And so I know that'll come out a little bit. I've seen this presentation or some of your content they're going to go through today. I know Ezra Firestone saw you speak and he immediately invited you to come to his Blue Ribbon Mastermind and present as well. And so we're talking about how to think differently to really unlock scale in your business. And so your, your approach to process called Liquid Mind. Yes. But tell us just a little bit about that, and then I want to get into your background, but Liquid Mind, what is this? Let, let's kind of tease this topic a little bit and then we'll talk about your

Will:

Background. Yeah, for sure. So actually I come with gifts. I'm going to actually do sort of a case example. I'm going to do some straight hardcore learning for everybody listening today. So we'll get into that when you're ready. But just to paint a picture, so what I like to teach is creative thinking as a competitive advantage. So what I rail against is the copy culture. I hate that everything in the e-commerce industry with D to C brands, everybody's just ripping everybody else off, right? There's very few originals, there's very few innovators out there. And if someone's going to launch some new strategy or program in their business, a new subscription program, 99 out of a hundred times, they're going to find a brand that they appreciate and they're going to just go rip off their stuff. And that might be the efficient thing to do, but it's such a lack of originality and innovation in doing things that way.

It drives me crazy. And more importantly, it leads to this oversaturation of the same type of marketing that everyone's doing the same thing. So if there's a new hot kind of video format, well all of a sudden everyone's doing the same thing. And that dilutes the impact of what that strategy might have when everyone's just copying everybody else. And so what I teach is these frameworks for business, creativity and innovation, how to think differently, how to think creatively, how to have frameworks to get these big creative ideas on a much more regular basis. So we all have these big aha moments once or twice a year. I want to give people a form, a formula, a format for a formal thought process for getting it once or twice a month. And the reason that matters is creativity equals innovation. And innovation equals revenue. So I want to teach people to be innovators. That's what I'm after.

Brett:

Yeah, I love it. And there's something to be said about, you have to pay attention to your competitors and you do need to look at benchmarking. And they're sure if they're ahead of you in certain areas, you may have to make some shifts, but that's not how you achieve breakthroughs. You don't achieve breakthroughs by copying the competition. You achieve breakthroughs by thinking differently and by making unique connections and combining things that nobody else's combined before, going with the fresh novel idea and then executing on that idea. So I love this phrase. I love your approach here. Love the content. We're going to dig into it. But you and I got to hang out when you were at Organi and yes, I quickly did see the, you are a guy that thinks differently and you were able to push the envelope. And can you talk a little bit about what that experience was like? Because I know a lot of people know organi, but sure, you were there for years. What changed as you were there?

Will:

Yeah, so I got to identify, mean it's been years when I first got there. Now, I moved out to San Diego maybe five plus years ago to work at Identify. When I got there, about 18 million in revenue. And some of the genesis of all this is on the, my first week on the job, this EO came to me and said that my goal was to grow the business to a hundred million in revenue in 18 months. And we had to do that at either breakeven or profit,

Brett:

Right? No big deal. Hey, it's not. So just put a pen in this or come back to it later. But yeah, a hundred million. So basically that's more than five x growth in 18 months. And yeah. Yeah. Can't lose money. You got to

Will:

Do, yeah, got to do pretty no profit,

Brett:

Right? No, no, no problem. No problem. So

Will:

Real, really aggressive goal. And when he first said it to me, I mean, it kind of was really disheartened. I'm like, I just moved across the country to take this job. That's not realistic. That's not the way these things work. You know, want both profit and massive growth at the same time. So I had some concerns about this opportunity, but I sat back and I thought about it for a couple days, and where I landed was I could do this, I could figure this out. And the way I was going to figure it out was thinking differently than everybody else. I was going to make it my mission to be more creative and find frameworks for unlocking creativity. And it set me off on this journey. And in fact, I did get the company to a hundred million run rate in about 18 months. It was just more than a little more than 18 months. But I did actually get them there. And I've been using these frameworks ever since and kind of replicating that success. So it was definitely a fun ride. I've got amazing friends still working at Identify left there about two years ago. But just it great company, great friends all the way around. Really good experience.

Brett:

And really, it's a great product. We enjoy New mg. Got to work with you on some YouTube projects. I remember sitting in your office and you were whiteboarding and talking about stuff, and it was one of the most fun conversations I had sketching out YouTube ideas for campaigns and stuff. Sure, yeah. What a cool company. Glad our paths collided. And that was super fun. So you grew from 18 million a year to a hundred million run rate, which is phenomenal. A lot of that was done by thinking differently. Because you're right, you either, you got two options. You can either scale or you can be efficient, but you can't do both

Will:

Really hard to do.

Brett:

Wow. Maybe you can, there's creative ways to figure things out. So, sure. Let's talk about this a little bit. You talk about thought patterns and thought patterns that we have as entrepreneurs, as humans that are limiting. Yep. So talk about that a little bit. What have you observed?

Will:

Yeah, so this is interesting. So thought patterns. This is a really big blind spot that no one's paying attention to. So over time, we learn how to think efficiently. Our brains learn how to take shortcuts to get to the answers that we're seeking faster. And that's great. That helps us to multitask. It helps us to move a thousand miles an hour. As entrepreneurs, it served us well. But at the same time, this is a really interesting area, which is it. It's a blind spot that no one's paying attention to. So over time, we all learn how to think efficiently. The brain learns how to take shortcuts to get to answers faster. But we'll give you an example. So if you counter a problem in your life and then you encounter a similar problem down the road, you've experienced something like that before, you're going to get to the solution to that problem much quicker.

And so your ability to short circuit getting into answers gets faster and faster and faster. But it also locks you into one way of thinking, one single approach in how you solve problems. So this is really good for efficient thinking, it's really good for multitasking and moving a thousand miles an hour, but it's the antithesis of creative thinking. And I can give you an example that's kind of interesting. So I have this, it's in one of my presentations, but it's a visual. And I know we're on a podcast, so no one's looking at the visual, but it's a heat map. And it's a heat map of how the eyes move on an article website. So think the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal or whatever, we all know and understand the concept of banner blindness, right? And so what's happening when you look at this heat map is everyone is immediately going to the content.

And the content as we know, is on the left through the center of the page. And no one's looking at the top or right of the page because you've learned in the past, there's no content, there's no value there. Let's go right to where the value is. Your brain being efficient, let's not waste time looking to the right and to the top. But when you're doing this in your business, when you're trying to solve problems, that might actually be where the creative solution is. So if you go to some new article website, and the actual great answer you're looking for is on the right rail, you're never going to see it, right? You're blind to it's,

Brett:

Yeah, we're trained to not

Will:

Look for that. Yeah, you're trained to not look for it, and you're not look going out of your way not to look for it. You're going out of your way to be efficient and find the answers that you want and what's blinding you to what other opportunities might exist. And so what it's really doing is it's locking you into one way of thinking, having one single perspective, and not having the ability to think differently. And that that's the case study I actually brought today. And if it's a good time, we can jump into that now or yeah, let's do,

Brett:

Let's go right to the case study and there'll be lots of follow ups and stuff. So yeah, let's lay it out there.

Will:

So for those that are going to watch this, I am going to do a screen share, but you got sweet, this is going to be fine for just listeners as well. So lemme just pull that up. There we go. Okay. So what I like to teach are these case studies of people that have done something extraordinary, something different, that had extraordinary results. And sometimes I'm profiling famous business leaders like Steve Jobs or Elon Musk, and sometimes the people you've never heard of. In this case, we're going to profile a gentleman by the name of Franklin Franklin Leonard. And Franklin Leonard was the founder of a company called the Hollywood Blacklist. And the Hollywood Blacklist is a collection of some of the most successful movies that were ever produced out of the rejections of all the major studios. This is a guy who is really thinking

Brett:

To love that concept, love that concept.

Will:

So what his job was in Hollywood is he was a script reader. Now, I don't know what that job title actually is, but he would read scripts all day long, eight hours a day, and I don't know how many scripts they can get through in a day, but very monotonous job. And he's looking for that needle in a haystack. He wants that one movie he can pass on to his boss, and hopefully they'll buy this script and fund the movie and make the film. And his goal was, how can I find more high quality scripts in a more efficient manner? And the genius in what this guy did is he found a creative solution that was in the trash bin of all the major studios.

Brett:

Nice.

Will:

And so what we need to know, or the problem that works we really want to overcome here is studios have been making decisions on what scripts to greenlight, which movies to fund and produce. They were making these decisions on the wrong criteria or very limited criteria I should say. And so for some of the reasons they would,

Brett:

Their version of banner Blindness, right? Yeah. They were viewing movies through this certain lens and only doing what was successful before. Yes. So it was that translation there. You

Will:

Fully nailed it, right? There's one way to do it, there's only one way to do it, and now we're blind to other approaches. So that's exactly right. So the criteria they were using to decide which movies to green light were things like, if a script comes in with a star actor attached, like if Brad Pitts attached to a script, the odds be getting made, obviously are much higher. The genre of the film is going to matter because some genres make more comedies versus drama, whatever. Some make more than others. They would evaluate the script if it's going to do well in foreign markets, is this going to translate overseas and in another language? And of course, what they really want is, is this movie going to have a sequel? Can we follow it up with another movie if it's successful? So is the criteria that they were using.

And so what Franklin wanted to know is what are the favorite scripts that didn't meet these criteria from these other movie studios that were being rejected? But yet they were really high quality scripts. And so back in the early two thousands, I think the number was 12, I think there was 12 major studios back at that point in time, universal MGM and so forth. And so what he did is he went around and he took an anonymous survey of his friends that were also script writers at the other studios and other executives at these movie studios. And he asked them to give him a list of the 10 favorite movies that they had rejected or passed on in the last year. And he simply tallied up the list. Super smart, which of these movies got the most votes? Went to the top of the list regardless of how everyone ranked them individually and

Brett:

Here. So the same movie was on multiple lists, so multiple rejection lists, but it was still the favorite of those rejected. Those went to the top of his list.

Will:

Exactly. Right. And it didn't matter if everyone listed a movie, one versus two, that was irrelevant. It's just a total cumulative score. Yep, exactly right. And so the blacklist is a summary of these 10 we're the movies that were most voted on by the executives. Now remember, these movies have been rejected by every single major studio. So here's the results. Fast forward to today, over 400 of these movies that were absolutely dead, 400 have been made into movies. Wow. Now let's look at the quality.

Brett:

Sorry, what type, I know you just said what type period is this again?

Will:

Well to today? So started in 2005 and now 2005

Brett:

To today, still 400 movies, over 400

Will:

Movies. None of these ever were been made into movies. 300 of them were nominated for an Academy award. So this is showing you, they were high quality scripts. They were missing on high quality scripts. 54 of these movies actually won an Academy Award, and four of the last 10 pictures came from the Hollywood blacklist. They never would've been made. So those four movies are Slumdog Millionaire King's Speech Spotlight.

Brett:

What's funny, that was the movie that came to mind first when you said it was Slumdog Millionaire, because it's such a beautiful story, but it does not fit any, it doesn't fit any mold. So that that's, there you go. So cool. That was one of 'em. Yeah,

Will:

That's exactly right. So those four movies, Argo was the last one. They never would've seen the light of day. In fact, they were rejected. These were turned down by all 12 major studios. What revived them was the blacklist. So in Q 440 scripts have been produced into movies making over 30 billion in revenue. Wow. Now, here's the hero slide. Harvard Business School actually did a research study around the blacklist, and they said movies from the Hollywood blacklist generated 90% more revenue than non-listed films with a similar budget. So not only are these higher quality as far as getting accolades and academy awards or high quality scripts they were passing on, right, 75% of 'em get nominated for Academy awards. So high quality stuff, but yet they're earning 90% more at the box office. They've been, what tells you is Hollywood's been evaluating films incorrectly for the last 100 years.

They got locked in that thought pattern. There's only one way to do it. And you kind of nailed it just a moment ago, Brett, is, it's almost a two layer effect here. Number one, we get locked into a single way of thinking, one perspective, there's only one way to view things. That's our thought pattern. But then when you work at a big company, they give you the way that they do business and they then force on you, this is the way it's been successful in the past, and there's no other way to view it. So it's a layering effect there where you really, it's, it becomes impossible to think creatively. So to be different, to think creatively, you have to learn how to break these thought patterns. And that's something that I really like to teach. And we'll go through one example here that basically Franklin Leonard is teaching us, which is I like to teach people how to approach achieving how to overcome the problems in your business or how to achieve these aggressive growth goals from different angles, altitudes, and directions.

In his case, Ray Leonard's case, he was taking the opposite approach, the inverse approach or the reverse approach to what everyone else was doing. By doing the opposite, he's getting these big outsized returns. So that's the opportunity. How do we think differently from everybody else? Let's think in different directions. I want to teach people how they can see what they don't and your competitors can't, right? We're blind to this stuff. And it's shocking at how blind we are. When people go through my masterclass, we do a bunch of puzzles and it is ridiculous how adults can't solve these puzzles, but yet kids can solve 'em like that. Kids are far more creative and imaginative than adults because they're not stuck in the thought patterns that we are. It's just, it's crazy. So I like to teach people how to think differently to scale businesses up to nine figures and beyond.

So let's do a couple, we'll do two more quick examples of this. So who else took the inverse approach and did really well with it? Right. Well, how about the Yahoo Google fight, which now fast forward today is going to be the Google Chat, G B T fight or AI fight. But back in the nineties, Yahoo was the most trafficked website on the planet, right? 125 billion in market value. And we all know what the Yahoo homepage looks like. There's a million things going on there. There's probably 40 different links that you can click before you even scroll below the fold. And here comes Google with their very clean interface and only one single thing to do type in a search bar. And Google just cleans their clock. They take the opposite approach and just bury Yahoo. Google's current market share is 85% for search versus Yahoo's 3%.

And remember that valuation? Yahoo. Yahoo was valued at 125 billion. They sold to Verizon for just 5 billion a couple years ago where Google's valued at a trillion. Wow. So they're taking the opposite approach in getting extraordinary results. And that's all that's also playing out right now in front of us with AI and chat G P T and all the competitors rolling out compared. When you look at Google compared to chat G P T I typed into a search, which is on the screen for those watching, is what are the best things to do in New York City into Google? And we get what we always get. We get a bunch of ads, we get a bunch of blogs, we get a bunch of articles that we got to navigate our way through the junk, the good, the bad sift through research versus I throw that same question into Chad G P T and it gives me 10 recommendations of what to do in New York City. And they're all great. They're exactly what you would expect. Not only is it telling me to go to the nine 11 Memorial and Statue Liberty, but it tells me to see a show and gives me restaurant recommendations. Go eat here.

So this is yet to be fully played out, but it's certainly a different approach of the way things been happening

Brett:

On. It's going to be really interesting to watch that play out. I do think, and I'm a little bit of biased cause I'm a Google guy and our business is somewhat built on

Will:

Google as a month.

Brett:

Eventually someone's going to take some of their market share, no question about it. But there's still times where if I'm searching for a product or searching for something, I want to use Google and not chat gps. I don't want just text, I want visuals and other things. But for sure the AI revolution and the progress that's being made and the speed at which it's improving, it's crazy stuff. And Google's still on the heat for sure. Well, the

Will:

Speed is incredible. Cause when I was playing around with chat G P T around the holidays, December-ish, you, the results I was getting out weren't very good. And where it is today, obviously we are all getting better at training the ai and the AI itself is getting better. Oh my gosh. The results are spectacular and it's just a couple of months later.

Brett:

It's insane. It's insane. And one kind of highly, one thing too sure that I think we will add to the comparison between Yahoo and Google. Yahoo is very traditional. Let's sell banners, but let's make the banners better and let's make them more interrupting. And then let's just, it's native ads and stuff, which all worked. That's fine. Sure. But Google's thing back in the day was, Hey, what if a good ad is just an answer to a question? There you go. And that's what they built the business on really, right? Well, it was organizing the world's information, but making an ad, just the answer to the question and making it the right answer and different way of thinking, unlocked immense value areas and great user experience. And really to a large degree, they just earned that 85% mark market share. I know they're people made disagree and stuff like that, but people want to use Google and why it's happened

Will:

For sure. Okay, so we'll do one more example of someone, Colin, of following this inverse reverse logic or orthotic flaw pattern or thinking that Franklin Leonard did. And so this is an example, is Blank Street Coffee, a coffee chain in New York? So probably only people living in New York will have heard of it, but they're taking the opposite approach to the big boys who obviously is Starbucks. So what they're taking is a very small efficient approach. They are starting with their square footage. So the typical Starbucks is going to be 1500 to 2000 square feet, where these are little micro stores. These are like 350 square feet for blank Street coffee. Or they're even these food trucks like the taco trucks, we all know it's a mini taco truck. It's almost like a VW kind of old school seventies VW bug on a truck,

Brett:

Which is very small.

Will:

Yeah. Yeah. They're tiny. And what they're doing is just giving you a great product that costs less and it, it's a different experience. Starbucks is saying, come in and sit down in our living room and spend the day. And these guys are saying, Nope, no, move on with your day. We're just going to give you a great cup of coffee. So they're automating the process of making a coffee, which is cheaper for them. So they then can pay their employees even more. They're paying 28 bucks an hour, which is way above them of wage.

Brett:

$28 an hour for just the coffee shop. It's crazy. Yeah,

Will:

Crazy.

Brett:

But you need that if you're living in New York City for

Will:

Sure. Of course. And then their coffees on average, it's about 30, 25% less expensive than Starbucks. So it's a value. Those companies growing really fast, they've raised $80 million, they've opened 40 different stores. But here's the key for Blank Street, these stores turn profitable within 30 days of launch.

Brett:

No

Will:

Way. What retail store have you ever heard of turning profitable 30 days of launch way, right? 30 days. So they're taking the opposite approach and crushing the big guy. I mean, they're not crushing Starbucks's back obviously, but they're doing a great job. And no Starbucks is turning a profit in 30 days. So Scott Galloway says, when something is successful, everyone else piles in, right? Yeah. The copy culture stuff in our rail against. But this creates the opportunity for someone else to come in and take the opposite approach. So instead of always thinking, how do we copy the next guy? I want people innovating. I want people thinking creatively, how do we actually think different? And this is one way to do it. How do we think in different directions? Come up with the inverse approach. And I actually just had a big win for myself on this.

So just in teaching you this masterclass, liquid Mind masterclass, and I was thinking about how do I market and grow this program? And I came up with a very cool idea. I'm actually building a case study around it right now. So I won't reveal the answer on this one, but people can get on my email list and it, it's a case study that's going to come up, but it's the opposite of what everyone else is doing. And what it's landing me is the opportunity to speak in front of my exact target audience, which is CEOs and founders of digital brands, e-commerce companies, rape anywhere between a million and a hundred million plus. And I'm getting in front of these opportunities to speak to these founders anywhere from about a hundred in the room all the way up to a thousand in the room. And this is not through any traditional way you can think of. This is not me going to a conference. This is not me going to a mastermind. This is not me on a podcast. This is something new. So I'm having this really good win on it now I'm documenting it as I go do.

Brett:

Now I'm totally curious. Now you got to tell me this half of the podcast.

Will:

I'll share it with you now for sure. But then for everyone else, they can join my email list. It's free to get on. So this case study we're going through now, I produce two or three of these a month and just get on the email list and I'll put them on the distribution for it. So they can just go to liquid mind masterclass.com/join, J O Y N, just join. And that's just free opt into the email list, and then you'll get these case studies and even this one will come out as a, you'll see the video recording of this case study. So sweet. Anyway, really interesting. And just a good, it's just one practical way that I can teach people. How do you think creatively? How do you think differently? Okay, well here's a practical way to do it.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. And it's all linked to that in the show notes, but it's liquid mind masterclass.com/join. So check that out. Yeah. So I love this because we want to, there's this old saying, and I agree with it, that success leaves clues. And so when you see someone is successful, a company is successful, you say, well, what are the clues? Well, the most obvious thing is, well, we just do what they did. Let's offer more products at lower prices or whatever. But maybe that's not the answer. And one of the things where I live in southwest Missouri where an hour and 45 for the Walmart headquarters. So northwest Arkansas is not too far. And one of the innovations that Walmart had was, instead of, so this great service at the time, whatever, low prices and stuff, but rather than going to all the major cities where everybody else was, their approach was, let's go to small towns. Sure, underserved small towns that everyone else is overlooking. And that's really where Arkansas, or that's really where Arkansas is, where they're from. But that's where Walmart really gained a competitive edge. So I do like this idea of, what if I did the opposite? So here's what every else is doing. Success leaves clues, but what if I did the opposite? Is there something in that

Will:

It's got with the speed of technology and the speed at which we all move today to be successful, to compete on these platforms? I feel like you almost everyone just seems like you have to steal from everybody else. How are they doing it? Let's borrow theirs. What's their upsell flow? What's their how bundling and pricing, let's just borrow a borrow bar. Whereas if you can just slow down and be creative, you'll put such distance between you and your competitors. It's ridiculous. So the way I think about it is the leverage points of a business, and I have a slide on this in one of my presentations, but I probably throw 20 of these leverage points on the slide. I just said subscription programs, bundling pricing, copywriting, video ads, whatever. There's probably 50 to 75 of these leverage points in any D two C business. But if you can stop in 80 20 those and then get creative around the ones with the highest impact, you'll put such distance between you and everybody else because everyone else is being lazy and just copying. So being creative is actually the competitive advantage. So that's what I'm really after.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. And it is true. Most of your competitors, all they're doing is copying everybody else. And those are the conversations that are taking place in marketing meetings and CEO level meetings of the C-Suite. And other companies are just copying what everybody else is doing. And so there's

Will:

A weird thing with that. You do want some, it always validates a bit to go, oh, someone really impressive. Everyone wants to copy some of the models from, like Dr. Squash has done so phenomenally well and Manscape has the amazing ads, and so everyone just wants to copy, copy, copy. But you know, it's copy everything and be successful. Just because it speaks to their audience doesn't mean it's going to speak to yours. And I feel like it's the movie example I was just giving in Hollywood where it gives you cloud cover to say, well, that's what they're doing, so we should do it. But it doesn't

Brett:

Mean it's the safe thing where you say, well, this formula's worked before. I mean, tell all the other Tom Cruise movies sell. So if we get him on this movie, it'll do great. Sure. But what's also, what's so great, and I'm so glad you shared that example, I did not know about the Hollywood blacklist, so I definitely learned that that's a new perspective for me. But he didn't just say, give me all your garbage, give me all the trash movies. But what he identified was that he believed the model was wrong. He believed the way Hollywood was looking at was wrong, but he knew there was some gold buried in the scrap pile, right? So he is like, Hey, what are your favorites? Tell me the ones you rejected because you had your model's broken, even though he probably didn't say that, but what were your favorites? And he started there. And so really a smart approach because it's looking for things that everybody else is missing. Yeah,

Will:

Exactly. Right. If you actually put just a little bit of creative thinking time in each week, why can't you come up with a two degree shift on a subscription program? And that's better than anyone else in your industry. You know, don't have to, we're about inventing the iPhone, but how can you make a two degree shift that is better than everybody else? And if you can just get into this process of thinking, the results are spectacular. So I actually do some work with a company called Size Advisory, and they've got a venture capital arm out of Silicon Valley, and they'll bring me into consult and do growth marketing for some of their portfolio companies. And what I am doing behind the scenes is I'm bringing this framework, I'm looking at the leverage points of their business, and then I'm looking for the creative opportunities to accelerate them past their competitors. Because invariably, when I go to meetings at other companies, if they're looking at a website redesign, if they're looking at their funnel, if they're looking at their ad copy, the meeting always starts the same way. Well, this is our biggest competitors doing, how do we copy that? But it's the way every meeting goes in these companies.

Brett:

And these are really smart people,

Will:

And there are very smart people, really talented people. And any of the companies that size is advising, these are incredibly well funded, talented, smart brands. But I'm telling you, the meetings almost always start with, we need a new X, y, Z funnel strategy, and this is how the competitor's doing it. Let's build off from there. And it always ends up being full and emulating what everyone else is doing. So I'm okay to look for inspiration in those places, but then innovate on top of it. And a good first step for that is let's think about thinking in different directions.

Brett:

And I remember hearing this quote, I think it was maybe from Jim Collins or Jim Collins references this, but it says, one thing that's worse than failing is succeeding and not knowing why you succeeded. Really. Right? So there's like the success, it was created, but you're like, well, I don't know. I dunno what I did. It just happened. And I think sometimes when we look at other companies, we see, oh, they're really successful at attracting new customers, or their margins are greater, whatever. And so we copy something. But that wasn't really what made them successful. Don't, we don't understand. I think what's key there is understanding why is this company so successful and what are the elements in that I should maybe learn from or implement? And what are the elements that I should do the opposite? Cause there's more opportunity in the opposite. I think sometimes we make assumptions as to why people are successful and we're going down the wrong path.

Will:

So yeah, you're really interesting because I've definitely worked with some companies who have some spectacular marketing that people love, and whether I'm in a mastermind with them, or maybe I was advising them as a consultant, but you go in and I'm now working with maybe their head of growth or head of creative, and they're shockingly little there. And what that shows is what you just said is their secret sauce was actually something else. Maybe they just had the perfect product market fit or the absolute perfect tagline, or the absolute perfect name, liquid iv, the most genius name ever in that one word. If it's considered one word, I'm not sure Liquid iv. But what I get from that is it's hospital grade, which means it's premium and it's a

Brett:

Hydration problem. Instant, instant hydration, get all everything you need, just get an IV what you're drinking. That is a brilliant name,

Will:

Genius. It's absolute genius. And so there could be other reasons for the success you're pointing out. So yeah, I've actually got into these companies and I looked under the hood and I'm like, wow, that's not where the competitive advantage is. So it's just really interesting. And sometimes maybe they're just outsourcing all of it to an agency. They definitely have, there's some magic somewhere for these companies to be scaling Point

Brett:

But point. There's some unfair advantage somewhere in the business. There is. It's allowed it to happen.

Will:

But to your point is if you're just emulating everything that may not be where you might be copying the wrong things,

Brett:

Right? Yeah. So you're here. Totally. And I love the examples you gave of Qua and Manscaped and shout out to Raindrop, a Jacque Spitzer in the gang that they helped create those ads or did create those ads. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. They're fantastic. But then you look at something, is it what? What's Ryan Reynold's mobile company that just sold the T-Mobile for like,

Will:

Oh, mint, mince

Brett:

Mint. Yeah. So his ads are the opposite. And yes, obviously they lean, he leans into Ryan Reynolds as a celebrity and instant trust and stuff, but they're the most simple ads ever. And he kind of tongue in cheek talks about how simple these ads are, right? Sure. So that you can't just look at it and say, well, we got to be funny like Dr. Qua, or No, we have to be really simple like Mint Mobile. Well, but why are you doing that with Mint? It totally lines up with we're no frills, we're super cheap, it's all, and then we're leaning into the credibility of Ryan Reynolds. So yeah, so why are you doing it? Yep. What's the strategy here? What is this unlocking? What is your competitive advantage? Because otherwise you're just copying and who knows what kind of results you're going to get. So

Will:

Creative unlocks looking for the creative unlocks. That's what we want.

Brett:

So any tips? And we're about out of time, and I want, hopefully people are like, dude, I got to know more about liquid mine. And so we'll talk about sure that in just a second. But in any tips or tools, how do I know that I maybe am locked into a thought pattern? Or how do I know that I'm not thinking creatively enough any, or maybe we should just all assume you're not thinking creatively enough. Right? I am locked in patterns, but any tips or suggestions there?

Will:

Yeah, I can cut to the end of the book or movie on this one. You are thinking in thought patterns. We all are. Yeah. And it's human nature, right? Yeah. It's human nature. And look, it's served us very well. Why we're successful to begin with is we figured out we have pattern recognition, we figure out the patterns and we shortcut our learning. It serves us really well. In general, it's just the antithesis of creative thinking. So we are thinking in thought patterns. What I'm trying to uncover, and I do in a lot of the presentations I'll give from stage is I try to give people some unlocks to really show them just how blind we are. The visual that's not in front of us of the banner blindness, right? It's, it is just a representation that we just get locked in one way of viewing things like, this is what you need to understand.

We get locked into viewing things from one single perspective, whereas a second per, it's why it's really helpful if a third party expert gets dropped into your company. And it's why if an outside consultant gets dropped in, I get dropped in sometimes they immediately see something just so obvious and so that everyone else couldn't see it. And you're just like, holy, how do we miss that one? Right? Yeah. And it's just because you get so stuck in your way of thinking, you just can't see the right, can't opp other opportunities. And all it takes are these unlocks to say, oh my gosh, well then once I break free of the thought pattern, you're no longer blind. And so that's why builder, these just kind of step by step frameworks. So yeah, I do that through my masterclass, which is a formal training. I teach it live to founders of TC brands and e-commerce companies.

And I teach on stage a fairmount going to Blue Ribbon, as you mentioned, in a month or two here down in Puerto Rico. And then I produce these case studies. So those are free. So if you like the material we cover here today, I'll produce two or three of these case studies a month. Not all of them go public. Some are from my innovation group, but the public ones, I will send out one to two every month over email to those on my list. So that's awesome. So you want to learn more, just get it, go to the join section of the website. So just W Liquid, my masterclass slash join.

Brett:

Awesome. So I want to talk about the, these life cohorts, the training and stuff that you do. So we'll talk about that in a second. But how do you find these case studies? Are you trained now where you see a good idea like that and just immediately resonates? Or how are you finding these great examples?

Will:

So actually I go, I'm going very deep into content. And so I'm always trying to think differently than everybody else. And one potter that I do see happening now today is people not going nearly as deep. They TikTok. Everyone's moving towards TikTok. I know some brands that are turning out 100 plus TikTok videos a month, which is just blows my like, well, you and I work together with identify or other similar brands. We were working, we were talking actually just about a month ago about a brand, but at the peak of any of these I've ever worked for 10 to 20 videos a month, max. Totally. And that was a lot. That's just going to have all openings, all closings and hooks and chop it up in different ways. But you're talking 10 20. So now people are cheering out a hundred videos a month, and of course you can hire talent and U G C and all that, but my point is they're not going deep on the content.

It's all surface level. And so I'm going the other way. I want all my content to be very deep, very well thought out, very tried and tested. In this particular example, I have used this thought process to great success so much Cibo, our entire case study on it. So I don't have any answers to how I come across them other than I devour content the way everyone else does. I listened to a ton of books, ton of podcasts. I go to a lot of masterminds and all the like. But because my brain now is in this space of trying to think differently, of thinking creatively, I do very quickly find out who, who's doing something different, whether it's people or you don't know. So I actually have two case studies coming up with people you've almost certainly have never heard of before. One, she's a bestselling author, but it's a book on sugar-free living. And her book was number one on the top of the charts. I don't know if it was actually number one in South Africa and in England. So she's very smart and she's very accomplished, but she's not a household name, but she's done something different and extraordinary that we all can learn from. So I'm just finding people that I can profile and somewhere where I take inspiration, oh, I'm going to incorporate that in my way of doing business, and then I build a case study around it.

Brett:

Yeah, that's awesome. And I love the comparison, and I think this will tie in nicely. You get the TikTok machine, which who knows if it'll be banned or not or whatnot, but it's huge. It's hot, but it is a content, it's an insatiable beast. You got to keep feeding a content. Or you can look at something like YouTube where I've got some friends who are pretty large on YouTube, and it's more about viewer pieces of content between them really well, high quality, and they're just going to get better over time. They're going to get more views, more traction that they're going to explode over time potentially. So very different model. No right or wrong, but it's like, nah, I don't want to be this content factory. I want to do fewer piece of content and succeed. And one concept I want to throw out, I'm just curious if you're familiar with this or not, but it's the idea of a what's called a reticular activator.

And I wonder if you've like got this triggered working for you. So the idea behind it, have you heard this term before? Sure, yep. Yeah. So it's like your name is probably the most powerful reticular activator, and that's where if you're in a room and there's tons of noise you could hear when someone's like, will you hear it? Or you go to buy a vehicle, and I just bought my wife a 4runner not long ago. And so red car, no, I see every 4runner on the road, right? And it wasn't that they weren't there before and now suddenly they are there. It's just that my subconscious is looking for this. It's looking for this pattern. Exactly. And so I think you've probably trained your brain to start looking for these breakthroughs. That's

Will:

Exactly right. And now can we take some of those lessons and put them to use for us? That is actually one of the case studies. I have not actually built that one yet, but that is actually on my outline to do so. That's sweet. That's really interesting. The example is you're in a really loud crowded restaurant and you know can't hear anything. Then the person sitting directly across from you, but all of a sudden someone a hundred feet away in the corner says your name at a very low tone. You're still going to pick it up. You

Brett:

Hear it? Yeah. It's just so fascinating the way the subconscious mind works.

Will:

Yeah, for sure. Mind will pick that stuff up. So yeah, it's literally breaking through the noise. And so those are the concepts. When I come across those, I'm like, there you go. That's something I want to explore deeply and use to my benefits. This is exactly the kind of material I love to teach. Yep.

Brett:

Love it, love it. Well, I am super excited about hanging out in Puerto Rico and hearing the full talk and maybe sit poolside or something. That'd be super fun. So tell everybody, if you were listening like, Hey, I want to go through one of the live trainings, the life cohort, that's all@liquidmindmasterclass.com

Will:

As well. Oh yeah, I didn't mention this. So I do offer the, it's a six week, six hour, one hour week, six week masterclass that I give the first section. I'll actually give train for free, so it's not recorded. Again, thinking differently. I don't do anything recorded. Everything I do. Well, that's not true. My case studies are recorded, but that's more because they're going to end up on YouTube and that's just the content engine. But when I'm teaching, I teach live, and when I'm teaching the masterclass, I teach the masterclass live. And now why would I do that? Well, what's the completion rate give? Give me a guess because you'll get close if not nail it. What's the online completion rate for an online course?

Brett:

Oh, it's got to be like what, 10% or something

Will:

Like that? Like five to seven? Yeah. Yeah, it's five 7%. The online completion rate of the Liquid run masterclass, it's 97% and no one drops out maybe. But I'm teaching it live. It's same thing. There's a concept there that's related to a personal trainer at a gym. If the personal trainer's waiting for you, you are good. That's, you show up. The reason you hire a

Brett:

Trainer, you're paying for it. They're waiting on you, you're going, you're

Will:

Going. Yep. And that's part of it. So I do teach it all live. I teach it in small groups. It's almost all founders, a million to a hundred million. So I teach section one for free that you can get on the homepage. There's just a little button on the homepage if you want to go through section one for free, or if you just want to get on the email list and get those case studies. Again, they come out one to two a month, but that's just forward slash join to get to those case studies. But yeah, other than that, you'll see me floating around at various masterminds, they're on stage and yeah, Puerto Rico's going to be great down there for Blue Ribbon.

Brett:

Yeah, dude, you're hitting the circuit and doing it in a unique way, which I can't wait to learn about and learn your ways on that. But yeah, you're hearing your name pop up all over the place, which is awesome. So we'll link to everything in the show notes. Do check that out at a minimum of ethos case studies, but also consider the masterclass as well. But Will Hughes, ladies and gentlemen, will, thanks for joining us. Tons of fun. And we'll have to do it again sometime.

Will:

Yeah, it's great to see you. Absolutely. Look forward to hanging out soon.

Brett:

All right, man, really appreciate it. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We'd love to hear more from you. What would you like to hear more of on the show? Give us some feedback. If you've not done it already, leave us that review on iTunes. It helps other people find the show and hey, it makes my day. And so with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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Online marketers can learn a LOT from direct response TV (DRTV) ads. 

• The power of an irresistible offer.
• The art and science of a problem-solution ad.
• The appeal of a “magic product demonstration.”

To name a few!

This episode features Jordan Pine, a seasoned DRTV veteran who has also had success in the online marketing space. I wanted to pick his brain on how to be successful with DRTV. I’m convinced that some of the lessons he knows and that other DRTV pros know can be leveraged by online marketers. Recording this episode was an absolute BLAST! We went a full hour, and I could have easily continued for another couple. It was fun and insightful! Here’s a look at what we cover:

• The “Divine 7” for choosing the right product to advertise.
• The 10 TNT (Tried-and-True) elements of DRTV.
• Why the Ginsu Knife commercial belongs in the DRTV Hall of Fame.
• The “problem scale” and how to use it to analyze a product and the strength of a problem/solution opening. 
• Gluing people to ceilings, running over flashlights with tanks, and other “torture test” product demos.
• Lessons from the Godfathers of marketing like Claud Hopkins, Rosser Reeves, Joe Sugarman, and more.

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• Jordan Pine (LinkedIn)
• SciMark(Website)
• The SciMark Report
• Paragon Products (Website)
• 10 Tried & True Techniques For Commercials
• Brett Curry (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (Twitter)

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce. And I'm not exaggerating when I say I really couldn't be more excited about today's show because if you've listened for a while, I'm a self-proclaimed marketing junkie. I've always liked ads, I've always liked TV ads, and specifically I've always liked infomercials. Yes, that's correct. I've always loved infomercials and DRTV ads. And so today I have a legend in the space. Joining me on the show, Jordan Pine Jordan Pie. Jordan Pine is SciMark's founder and president, also the co-founder of Paragon Products, and he's a blogger. He's a student of DRTV. He's been running campaigns forever. He's one of the masterminds behind the wildly successful tack light tack glasses. I think there's a tack lantern tack, all kinds of stuff. And also some microwave cookers, which have done phenomenally well. He's a trusted name. Everyone wants to talk to him if they're looking at DRTV. And I think there's a lot we can learn from DRTV. One thing that I've said over and over again is YouTube is actually very similar to DRTV, so we're going to get into that as we we dive into the podcast. So with that, Jordan, welcome to the show. Thanks for taking the time and how you doing?

Jordan:

Well, thank you for that amazing introduction. I'm going to have you do all my introductions in future.

Brett:

Thanks for having.

It's a fun gig and yeah, man, what an amazing career. What an amazing background it was. I knew we were going to be friends when you'd reached out to talk about YouTube with me. And I just mentioned the Ginsu Knife commercial, right? Because it's one of the earliest commercials. I remember watching the Ginsu Knife commercial as a kid and thinking one, this is awesome. I got to talk my parents into buying it, which they did. And then two, who makes these? It's fun. Who makes these ads? But as we talked about it, you immediately fired me a YouTube link to the original, original, because I think I probably, I must have seen the ads in the late eighties or nineties, but this was from 1978, which was awesome. Yeah,

Jordan:

Great campaign. Great. And a very iconic, memorable opening with the hand can be used a knife, but it doesn't work so well in a tomato. That opening is probably the, if there's going to be a DRTV Hall of Fame, it'll definitely be, it's

Brett:

Got to be one of the just so engaged. You have to basically have to watch that when it says in Japan, the hand can be used like a knife. It's got this great voice and he chops through the wood, but then does not work on a tomato. So it's fantastic. So give us your background a little bit. So I've talked about some of your successes, but how did you get into the DRTV world?

Jordan:

Yeah, it's great. Sideways, I guess I would say I've had three careers, four, if you count a brief stint as a private eye, yes. But first I was a soldier. I joined the Army at high school and I served four years active duty and four years reserve. All in peace time as it turned out. Thank you for service, there weren't any major. Oh yeah. Yes, I will accept that. But there's a lot of guys that have done multiple tours now that have done way more than me. I was lucky enough, from my mother's perspective at least, to not be sent to any major wars or spent any time in war zones, down peace, years of the nineties. But after that, I was a journalist. I went to college on the GI Bill and I got a degree in journalism from Rutgers University. And I was a working journalist for several years, a business journalist.

And then I got into digital marketing and I had a friend that I had met in the National Guard that was the reserves that I served in, that was recruited right out of college into one of the top as seen on TV companies. And later on, he said, a few years later, he said, the brother of the CEO of my company, former company, and he's looking for a marketing director, would you be interested? He'd always told me how crazy the industry was. And I was like, yeah, sure, I'll meet with him. And pretty much the rest is history. I got recruited by him as a director of marketing and then eventually spent five years there, became VP of marketing. But I really love the industry from day one. My current business partner and best friend, the one that brought me into the industry, bill Corliss. He used to always tell me these stories and they were larger than life stories. And then I joined and it was every bit as crazy and fun and full of characters as he had said it would be. And sharks, of course. Yes. His epic advice to me when I first started was always remember, these are the kind of people that will stab you in the back and then ask for their knife back.

Brett:

So descriptive and somewhat terrifying as well. Yeah. Did you, let's just talk about this for a minute cause I've got a perspective here too. What do you like about, so yes, there's some larger than life characters and the products are fun, but what is it about this combination that makes you love DRTV? Just for a side note, we started talking about this. For those who don't know, Dr. RTV stands for direct response. So instead of ads that are aimed at branding and positioning and driving response, at some point, direct response ads are designed to get someone to, in the early days, pick up the phone or mail order or something or visit a site and make a purchase. And so Dr. Direct response, but yeah, or what is it about the combination of things that you like so well?

Jordan:

Yeah, so direct data you're talking about there is really what appealed to me. Just you can get immediate feedback on whether something is working or not and that that's mean besides all the crazy characters. And this industry comes out of Boardwalk, so there's a lot of interesting selling techniques going on. But what I really liked about it from a marketer standpoint is you can immediately see if, and it's really fast too, in our industry, within a couple weeks, you can know whether this creative idea, whether this product idea that you had actually resonates with consumers or not using cable television testing. So I always like that. I always making the phones ring these days, making the servers light up, however you want to phrase that, you know, can actually immediately see the impact of your decisions, of your marketing strategy, of your creative. And you really can't beat it.

And it was also in the beginning, when I started in the industry, it was the only type of advertising that actually made money. Now that isn't the case, but when we started, we would make money in direct sales off of TV and forget about paying for your advertising. You're making a profit for the first six months, and then you go to retail and you've got all this advertising behind you and suddenly it blows out at retail. So it was a beautiful, beautiful model. It still is in many ways, but especially in the early days that I started, it was a very beautiful model because like I said, all your advertising is making you money. And in addition to fueling your eventual retail sales,

Brett:

Yeah, would you just wild. So making money on the front end and then, yeah, I know you really can explode when you hit the retail store shelves and then you have all those ads kind of fueling the growth. I know for me, I, I've just always loved the art of a good ad and especially the psychology of selling. And you talk about some of the greatest pitch people on Dr TV spots or infomercials, like Boardwalk Pitch people. And there's just something about this, the psychology, the art and science of that as well, that that's super interesting to me. What are the phrases that's causes someone to lean in? What are the phrases that cause someone to almost feel like they have to purchase? And so I love the psychology of it, love the art of it. And then there's nothing like the rush of when people start responding.

When I was in college, I worked for a radio station and I was involved with this live broadcast one time, and this was early on, I'll never forget this. This was early on when I realized I may maybe kind of hooked on marketing. So we did a live broadcast for a jewelry store and I was kind of involved. I got to get on air a couple times and whatnot. But people started flocking to this jewelry store and they were selling stuff and the owner was happy. And I was like, this is pretty fun. This is pretty exciting. There's some real juice going on here. So yeah, when you see a campaign that's working, it's still super exciting to me. So

Jordan:

Yeah, it's like that excitement. That's why I love the industry. So you go into the CEO's office and you have the report and you have all these phone orders and all these web orders and you're like, we got to hit use a metric, a metric, a KPI called Cost per Order. It's like CPA, but yep, cpo. And the CPO is so low and we just have a party, pop the champagne. It's so exciting to see your work immediately. Yeah. Give you those results.

Brett:

That's amazing. It's amazing. Cool. So we talked about Ginsu Knives is one of the all time greats, the Hall of Fame. It's definitely in Canton for sure. And then mentioned Tack light and the spinoffs then of that and some of the microwave cookers that you've been involved with. But what are a few of your all-time favorite DRTV campaigns and why?

Jordan:

Yeah, it's a good question. I'm really a big fan of anything by again, the pitchman that started the business. So Ron Pope Billy Mays. My two favorite commercials of all time are both Billy May's commercials. The first one would be Oxyclean, the original Oxyclean commercial that he did. And really it's because the technique, of course, is as flawless and it had had one of the best magic demos of all time. A magic demo in our trade magic demonstration is sort of what it sounds like. It's a demonstration that's so good. It's almost like a magic trick, although it's not. And he had this giant tank of dye and he drops the scoop of Oxy cleanin and the red dye tank turns clear. So if you Google that or go on YouTube and find that commercial and just watch it, it's really a clinic and great Dr selling.

And so that's probably my favorite commercial of all time with Billy MAs, the late great Billy MAs. And the second one would be a commercial called Mighty Putty. Mighty Putty was like a putty that dried cured so that it would bond things together. And again, another Billy MA's commercial and that probably had those commercials, had some of the best torture test demos as we called it, where they pull a tractor trailer or they lift a bus, they pull a plane later on. Those kind of, again, magic demonstrations, which I love because at the end of the day, it's a little bit of a PT Barnum style business. It's a Barnum technique. And if you can really get what we call wow factor or wow going in a commercial, it can really cover, really cover over a multitude of sins. But it can also really just kick you into the next level in terms of getting buzz and driving sales.

So I love the old pitchman, I love all of Billy Mays's work. I mentioned Ron Pope. Ron Pope was one of the guys who started the industry. So any of his infomercials, Showtime Rotisserie said it and forget it. And in the modern era, the guys that really worked with Billy and did a lot of the great classic commercials like John Miller and Peter Hutton from Hutton Miller, those are the guys behind the scenes, the creative geniuses that do a lot of the commercials. You even see today all the mighty putty stuff and stuff like that. So those are the guys that are my, no, their work is at the top of my list for sure.

Brett:

Yeah, Billy Mayman, like the Michael Jordan of T rtv, he's just one of the greatest. And Ron Pope, I've heard his name forever so I know he's a legend as well. And there's something about that magic demo or the torture test. I love that. I never heard that phrase. And we, I've called it over the top demo as well, where you've got, it's good to show the product in actual use. This is specifically what I'm going to use it for because people need to be told and there needs to be that suggestion of, hey, you can fix your pots with it and you fix this and that and whatnot. But then, yeah, then you see the magic demo and now you're like, man, I got to get this nothing. This, it creates that real emotional draw. I still remember, you probably remember this ad too, this wasn't exactly DRTV cause it was short form TV commercial, but it was more direct response. It was for super glue where two guys walk into a room carrying a dude and they glue him to the ceiling and it's like this ad was not cut and they put glue on his shoes and stick him to the ceiling. And I'm like, man, that's amazing. He got it. My super glue.

Jordan:

So I think the original version was a beam. He was dangling the hard hat from a beam. From a beam, I don't know off a building, but if you go, yeah, that was the original super glue demo. They glue the helmet to an I-beam or whatever and he was hanging off of a beam. Yeah.

Brett:

And I assume that's legit. Were those real demos or do you know?

Jordan:

Yeah, I don't know about that one. I'm sure they were with many different safety. As someone who's done 150 plus of these commercials, there are things that you do. We have safety things in place that might be off camera. I don't know if he was hanging off the Empire State Building. That would

Brett:

Probably be,

Jordan:

Yeah, you would never get permission or insurance for something like that. Sure, sure. Hang your actor off of a, but yes, there, they're always real demos, maybe off camera. Like I said, there's some safety features. There might be, hopefully there's a cord connected to the guy's ankle and Casey Falls or something.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's awesome.

Jordan:

But wait, what you were saying, sorry to cut you up, what you were saying in the balance between demonstrating the product in real life, all the everyday uses like Mighty Pie is a great example. You know, can stick a mailbox on, you can you know can do this, you can do that, you can plug a leak, but then they have that, what I call it is the knot that you would, but you could pull a tractor trailer with it. Yeah, yeah. So it is a balance. You have to make sure you get enough of those everyday demos as well as that magic demo that kind of really proves the point.

Brett:

Not that you would, but you could. I love that. I love that you could. Yeah. Let's break down what are some of the successful elements? Cause I think that there are lots of lessons here and we're going to talk about how to tie this into digital marketing kind of as we go here. But what are some of the elements of a successful Dr. RTV campaign?

Jordan:

Okay, great. So when I started, I studied all the old masters and in the current greats as well. And I read their books, I interviewed them if possible. And of course I worked with them. You heard

Brett:

Some of your, just quickly, who are some of your favorites of kind of the old time greats?

Jordan:

Yeah, sure. So the old time greats, you got las got Albert Lasker and Kennedy, which was a cohort of his Claude Hopkins. Claude Hopkins wrote book a hundred years ago. Scientific Advertising. Yes, scientific Advertising, which was the inspiration for the name of my consulting company. Mark, you got John Caps. Yep. Tested advertising methods. Yep.

Brett:

So good. Yeah,

Jordan:

Of course you got the madman guys, you got David Ogilvie, Ross Reeves, personal favorite Mad Man. They might have even based Don Draper on him.

Brett:

Oh, on Ross Reeves.

Jordan:

On Ross Reeves, yeah. And he was a great kind of cranky guy. He had some great quotes that I could share with you from that era. And then you have Al ik, he's one of the early assing on TV guys. I mentioned Rom Pope, Joe Sugarman. Joe Sugarman was a print guy, d r print guy. But he wrote so many books that are super valuable.

Brett:

Yeah, I love his book Triggers. So it's triggers, it's a really fast read. It's like every chapter's two or three pages. Super fun. It's one I highly recommend you grab it on Amazon. So it's a great

Jordan:

Read. Actually behind me you can't see it. But behind me I, I'm a book collector so I have a library of, I mean it's only like, what was it, 30 or 40 books. But it's all the key books that have been done by all the Dr. Masters. So

Brett:

Nice. Yeah,

Jordan:

I have his books in there, Sugarman for sure.

Brett:

I bought Triggers, my son is doing sales just, he's only 20, but he definitely stole my Triggers books. I got to buy a new one. But I was glad. A lot of wisdom use that education for sure. So cool. So I catch you off, we kind of went on a rabbit trail there talking about some of breaks. Yeah. But you're talking about elements of success. You want to interview some of these guys. So who all did you interview? Just curious about that.

Jordan:

And I didn't finish my whole list, but the, and the more modern era, the Kani brothers, aj, Andy and his brother Chuck. I worked for Andy and I've worked, I've partnered with AJ since then. But in those days he was the, they're brothers and they all have three different companies and they're big force and on tv. So just working for the one brother and studying under the other brother got a chance to interview them. I interviewed Billy Mays, I interviewed Ropo P Met Ropo P interviewed him. So anybody that I had access to or that was still living, a lot of the guys I mentioned earlier are not living anymore. But the guys that were still living at that time, I worked with them. I interviewed them and I compiled these lists. That was kind of how I started as a journalist. I'm a journalist coming into, I had some marketing experience, but on the digital side, early digital too, we're talking about, so you're a Google guy, remember when I was just a colored banner across the top of the Totally course I was a bear ball and search engine, but their first ads were cu Yeah.

So we actually were one, a small company that I worked for in New Jersey. We were one of the first people to advertise in the tri-state area on that banner. And we used to have the Google team come in and talk to us about advertising at that time. So that's my digital marketing experience was way before the.com bubble burst basically. And my company survived because it was self-funded and it wasn't venture backed, but it was one of the few at that time. And I went through that period. But anyway, so I come in as a journalist and I don't really know much about as on TV at all infomercials. So this is what I did. I interviewed people, I took notes, I made lists, and I eventually condensed these lists down. There's a saying in DR that it's a success and probably applies or comes from other industries as well. Success is 80% product and 20% creative. So I set out to understand what the product criteria were that these guys were looking for and what the selling techniques were in their creative approach. And I ended up with, in the end I had the Divine seven and t n t,

Brett:

The Divine seven and t n T. Okay. Did you explain? Yes.

Jordan:

So the Divine seven is seven key product criteria, particularly for as seen on TV products. And t and t stands for tried and true. It's 10 tried and true tech selling techniques for Asen on TV commercials. And I'd, I'd be happy to go through those. Do you want You want to go through 'em?

Brett:

Do it man. Let's do it. Yeah. And we probably won't be able to key in on all of them in much detail, but let's go through it for sure.

Jordan:

Okay, so the Divine seven number one is unique and that's really about perception. So it has to be perceived to be new and different, right? Number two is mass market. Our ideal would be one per person, which obviously you can sometimes get there with sunglasses. You could say my market size is one per person. You could have multiple people in house that wear my sunglasses, but usually it's about one per household. That's how we look at it. Yeah. At least one household. One can be in every household in America. Problem solving.

Brett:

If you feel like that's true of the total addressable market, that's when you've got a mass market. Enough offer. Got

Jordan:

It. Yes. Well also, and this is something that's important to understand, what we do is we test cable television networks, big ones, Fox News and big news channels, stuff like that, as well as it's a moving list based on rates. But when we air a commercial, it's airing, airing everywhere. It's not local, not a regional air, it's a national air. So if you don't have an item that appeals to the entire nation or every household in the nation, then you're really just wasting money. So you're

Brett:

Wasting exposure. It's not very targeted spend.

Jordan:

Right. Got it. And then number three is problem solving. I always describe this as a the problem scale. I call it one to 10. One is an itch, 10 is a heart attack. Seven, you want to be a seven or higher on the problem scale in order to really grab people and sell to them. That's very important. I'll have a lot of people say, and actually you can critique bed as say on TV commercials this way, when they have that opening hate when this happens to you and you're like, no,

Brett:

Not really. That's really not

Jordan:

Very painful. It's probably not strong. Yeah, yeah.

Brett:

Got it. So it's got to be,

Jordan:

Do a minor inconvenience.

Brett:

So it's not a heart attack, but it's certainly not just a little itch, it's a like a

Jordan:

Seven, it's a like a seven or better. That was my, that's a sweet spot. Obviously not an exact science priced, right? That's just common sense. And in our business we operate on impulse purchase. So it varies by item, but typically with the consumer products that we do, that's why we're 19 99, 14 99. And we used to be $10, buy one, get one, because those are impulse purchases. We used to say, you're easy to take a $10 bill out of your pocket. It's harder to take a 50 out. And obviously these numbers have moved around a little bit. Now it's 29 99 is a common price point. But when I started it was 10 14 99, 19 99. And the idea was, you know, don't have to think too much about spending that amount of money. Once you get into more money now

Brett:

It's like you need to think about it, you feel like you need to talk to your spouse or somebody about it, then you just don't do it. Right. But if it's, yeah, 15 bucks, 20 bucks, 30 bucks, you just do it in the spur of the moment.

Jordan:

And if you're seen an on TV section in a Walmart or whatever it, it's always in an impulse area of the store. So a checkout or does it end cap. So you're on your way and you're like, oh, okay, grab that. Don't got to think too much about it. Throw it in my bag, throw it in my cart and move on. So that's what price right means it's just an impulse price, not a considered purchase. And that's really about price to value. You can have a TV that's impulse price. The loss leaders, you see sometimes they used to do $99 flat screens or whatever. Hey, this is about price to value, but ultimately the idea is take it out of considered purchase. I got to think about it and move it into a, I'm excited, I'll just drop the money and buy it.

Brett:

Got it. Love it. So number five.

Jordan:

Number five is easily explained. We have longer than most because as on TV is what we call short form is a two minute commercial. Obviously most commercials are 30 seconds, but that doesn't change or less, that doesn't change. The consumer's been trained, viewer's been trained to have about a 32nd attention span. So if your product isn't easily easy to explain, you're not going to get it done in that time. You're not going to sell them. People come to me with what I call Swiss Army products that does seven things. I'm just like, this is not for us. No way. I can explain those seven things in 30 seconds or less. And I really have to communicate what it is, what does, why it's different in that short period of time. And this'll be more common sense now to people who are dealing with TikTok and right. YouTube and things like that because we know the tension spans are short. But again, when I started and I first compiled this list and refined, it was insightful. People had longer attention spans back then.

Brett:

Kind of sad but true. Yes. So yeah, usually the DR tv, the short form Dr. TV commercials are two minutes or whatever. Yes. But are you using a rule of thumb? I want to be able to explain everything though. Problem, solution, feature, benefit, demonstration, 30 seconds. Because then you're reiterating it just for the rest of the time. Yes. Type of thing.

Jordan:

Yeah, you're reiterating it. We spend the rest of the, well last 30 seconds of the commercial is going to be building an offer. We'll get to that when we talk about the t and t, but building an offer and all those things that will sound familiar to people. So the last 30 is gone, the first 30, you really have to establish the problem, make yourself the solution and convince, tell people what it is, what it does, why it's different. And that first 30 and then the middle of the commercial is usually reserved for credibility boosters. Again, we'll talk about this in the t and t list, but Got it. Yeah. Credibility boosters, establishing value. That crazy magic demo. That's one of the biggest challenges. Okay, I want to do, I want to emulate Billy Maze, I want to emulate Hutton Miller. They have the first ones to do these kind of things in a big way.

So how do I do that now? How am I going to explain, I'm going to lift a bus with Mighty put, obviously I'm not doing that one, but a version of something like that in 60 seconds. Okay, there's a bus, there's Mighty. So that middle part of the commercial, if you're doing something big and grand, a Barnum move, then you're going to need the middle of the commercial for that. And then of course it becomes even more challenging because we do run sixties, a double 30. So now you have to cut that down. So really you got to be thinking, and again, this is going to sound less cutting edge than it might have sounded a few years ago, but you really got to be thinking about condensing your message into the shortest time possible so that at least you get the sale down and then you can do all these layering on top things to make it more exciting and convincing.

Brett:

Totally, totally makes sense. So what it is, what does what it solves, problem, solution, demonstration, all that in the first 30 or or potentially less. Awesome. So then number six,

Jordan:

Number six is age appropriate. So what that means is it's just a play on words and DR tends to skew older, middle-aged and above. So I established that because people would try to do tween products, or especially these days, young kids aren't even watching younger people even watching tv. Correct. So you know, got to make sure that the demographics of cable television or broadcast television are right for your product.

Brett:

So generally you're thinking forties and over or Boomer and older. What it's,

Jordan:

It's moved down. It used to be, I used to say 65 plus because that again, that's a sweet spot because our 50 plus boomers and above, because that was really the sweet spot. The bulk of buyers off of TV were that age group. But then things have evolved and I, when I started, I remember this clearly, I think web sales were 5% of total. It was like 95% phone sales and no, I'm sorry, 90% phone sales, maybe 5% web and 5% or more, a little bit more was mail. Mail-in send your checker money order to this address now. And we did that for years. It diminished in a diminished, but it was still a significant percentage of our sales. And the websites were mall websites. I dunno if remember those. It was like you go there and it's tons of products. We didn't even have our own webpa domains. It was kind of like a proto Amazon that we just drove them straight to our product

Brett:

Page. I think I'll just mail it in. I could call get online, I just want to mail it. That's so funny. Or even the mall websites are awesome too. So skews older, but it has shifted down a little bit, you would say?

Jordan:

Yeah. Now I'd say it's 35 plus or even 30 plus. I wouldn't do teens, I wouldn't do teens. I probably wouldn't do 20 somethings. I wouldn't do anything. Maybe it depends on what your goals are, but to get direct response, yeah, you're not going to get that. Yes.

Brett:

Yep. Makes sense.

Jordan:

Cool. And then the last one is of the divine seven was credible or believable, although that can be a pretty low bar if you have enough. Wow. And other factors going for you. But sometimes we look at quite a few products that people just aren't going to believe it. So if you look at it, and I know what you're saying, I remember an example would be someone brought a cardboard square, it was reflective somehow and their whole pitch was like you put a potato on it and it just grows. So if you put this in your vegetable drawer somehow it'll just, things will grow and stay fresh. And I looked at it and that science, I don't

Brett:

Think science works that way. I'm not a botanist, but I don't think it works.

Jordan:

And I just had to say, even if they had research and I'm like, well even if the, I'm not a scientist and I'm not going to critique your study, but it's just people aren't going to believe it. Take this cardboard square, put it in your refrigerator and magically all your produces is going to stay fresh. I didn't believe it. But then again, there's a famous product called Green Bags, infamous, famous, I mean it still sells today. That actually does work. And when you look at it the first time you'd say, ah, I don't know, putting my vegetables in a bag keeps them fresh. It actually works. There's some science behind why it works. So like I said, credibility is a good criteria to keep in mind, but you'd be surprised sometimes how low the bar could be as long as you do the other things. And obviously customer satisfaction, et cetera.

Brett:

Got it. And that's where I think some of the magic demos you talked about, you see it and maybe you wonder a little bit, but you also kind of believe your eyes. You believe what you're seeing, something like a magic piece of cardboard that grows produce or something. It's like I don't too much, I'm sort of seeing it. But so yeah, that totally makes sense. So the Divine Seven, that was worth the money to tune into the podcast right there. Divine Seven, divine. Love it. But we're not done folks. But wait, yes, there's more. But wait, there's more. There's so much. Alright, so let's talk about T. The, you said 10 T and T, 10 of the tried and true. Yeah,

Jordan:

Well the Divine Seven, just one last thing on that. Yeah, so later on I, I've refined that and rejiggered it a little bit on my website. I think I have eight criteria now. One that I added later that I think is important I mentioned earlier is wow. So sometimes if you have a really amazing demonstration, a really magic demonstration you can get by with not having some of the other Divine Seven and also Divine Seven are not like required. They're not hard and fast. They're basically, if you want to have the best odds of success, you'll hit all seven of those plus Wow. And then you have a pretty strong idea that you're going to have something successful. Of course you don't know until you actually put it in front of consumers and find out. So we use these criteria to this day and I, I've been consulting with Major the big Gas on TV companies for years as well. And they use these criteria just as a gut check, a way to sort of separate items. Then of course is a whole process of validating and finding out if you're actually correct. But it, they're good heuristic for separating the wheat from the chaff to start.

Brett:

Love it. And I love the Divine Seven is actually eight. That's fantastic.

Jordan:

The Divine Eight, right? The grade eight, I don't know, I got to grade

Brett:

Eight. Yeah, it just works. I don't know. Yeah, divine Seven's pretty special. So I will link to your blog posts also that be in the show notes so folks can check that out. Cool. So T and t, let's talk about that.

Jordan:

Okay, so t and t, you're basically breaking down the elements of a successful on TV commercial number one is start with the problem solution opening. It ties right into problem solving as a criteria for products. So you start by articulating a problem. This is the classic black and white or desaturated scene. You've seen an infomercials, oh no, are you tired of blah blah, blah. That's the classic scene. But starting with the problem solution is opening is hard and fast. I

Brett:

Love the Flex Seal commercials that are relatively, I mean that's not too old, but the opening scene there is a leaky roof and this guy with a pretty thick New Jersey accent's like this will cost thousands, these repairs will cost thousands of dollars or whatever. And then he gets into his pitch. That's a pretty good one. Yeah,

Jordan:

Phil's done an amazing job with the Flex Seal line. He blew it up into a whole business and that that's classic VR as well. So yes, you, they're actually super cuts on YouTube that you can find of it's, I have a favorite, maybe I can give it to you to put in the show notes, but it's like a super cut of all these problem scenes. Nice. And it's just hilarious when you put 'em all together. It's like this person has the worst, they ever fall down the stairs and they're gar garbage bag breaks and their roof is leaking and it just goes on and on. And so start with the problem solution opening. I, I've actually done a lot of, again, it's a very measurable type of marketing. So I've done a lot of AB testing with more aspirational openings or not having a problem solution opening. And every time hands down the problem opening is what wins.

Brett:

And a lot of that ties back to it. It's more motivational. We're more motivated to avoid pain then to seek pleasure. And so it makes sense. Yeah, if we got a problem, we want to solve it. So yeah, it makes sense that that's going to be usually the strongest opening.

Jordan:

So that's one. Number two, showcase unique features and benefits. So any good webpage or Amazon page has a list of features and benefits. So we just showcase those particular things. Again, this part of the commercial, these kind of go in order by the way. So this part of the commercial is about establishing what it is, what does, why it's different. So you showcase that and then tied into that as number three, which is demonstrate or demo the product repeatedly, which includes that magic demo in tech light we had the magic demo of this is supposed to be a super tough military durable flashlight. So of course we'd run it over with a Humvee, we freeze it in a block of ice and it still works. We do all these crazy military tough demos,

Brett:

Which both of those are really memorable. Seeing it in the block of ice and someone chips weigh the ice so you can, until it's actually ice and then the Humvee, that was better than just a van or something, right? It's going to be

Jordan:

Military how had to be a Humvee,

Brett:

Right? It's perfect

Jordan:

How to be a Humvee and then explain how the product works. It's a little mundane, but here's how it works. Here's part of a commercial's important, who does a really good job outside of Dr is Dyson. So Dyson's really selling you on there. Yes. Their sophisticated vortex technology inside of there, which is why you're going to spend three times as much. Exactly. You normally spend that in a vacuum. So they use that to great effect. Number five, prove value by comparing and contrasting. So when you think about this, I always think of the most iconic side. It's usually a side by side demonstration. You can also do before and afters of course. Number one in terms of comparing contrasting before your roof was leaking after your roof is no longer leaking or weight loss, you see the guy with the gut and then the guy doesn't have the gut anymore. So that's before. And afters is a classic example of that. But this a second one in terms of contrasting bounty, the quicker picker upper to this day, they do that split screen scene where they both go over a regular paper towel and the bounty goes over the same spill and there's a smear and left behind liquid on the negative side and on the product X side and on their side it gets the whole thing. So that is that drill

Brett:

I think brilliant immediately communicates the difference and it just lands, it works.

Jordan:

And then we have number six is established credibility with testimonials. So we don't always use testimonials. Sometimes we use celebrity endorsements. Basically this boils down to, you mentioned psychology earlier, I'm a student of social psychology, particularly Robert Cini. Yeah, I love it. And he has a concept called social proof. So we, especially in longer form, which is the half hour infomercials, they use a lot of social proof, a lot of people telling you how great the product is an incredible way. So that builds that sale for them.

Brett:

And the other interesting thing about social proof, we use this a lot for YouTube or any kind of digital ads. Video ads is especially user-generated content, but testimonials are pretty engaging as well if they're done the right way and I know how to craft the right testimonial or edit the right testimonial, but they tell a story and stories are very engaging. So it provides that social proof gives you confidence that it's going to work and it's also pretty engaging and helps draw somebody in. It's interesting, I remember going through a period of time when I had some clients tell me like, ah, testimonials, it's old school try. But I think everybody's over that. They know, no, this works, it's going to work forever. That's like saying good offers. So like old school. Okay, so anyway,

Jordan:

Yeah, I've heard that so many times in so many different ways. There's so many things that everything that I'm saying and everything that I will tell people is tested, tried and true means it's been tested and before me, I mean billions of dollars have been proven these things out. So I always kind of have to laugh when people are say, oh I'm not, I'm going to do that. Yeah,

Brett:

I don't want to do that. That's not my brand, it's not my style. I'm like, oh, okay,

Jordan:

It's great, but we know it works. Do you want sales or

Brett:

Yeah,

Jordan:

Exactly. Anyway, so yeah, where were we? Chaldini social proof. Yes, very important. Raise an answer. Obvious questions and objections. So we mentioned Sugarman earlier, this is basically Sugarman one of, I mean Sugarman has many things, but one of the things that jumped out of me enough to put it into my, he's

Brett:

Also Sugarman's the guy, but I don't know if we mentioned before. So Ruth book triggers, which you recommend, but he is also the guy behind glue blockers. That was one of his big successes. Love the blue

Jordan:

Blockers. He was the first guy to do the blue blocking sunglasses. He had those great, that had a lot of social proof in it. There's a character that he found on a beach that did some dance moves and stuff. Very iconic. And that of course led to many variations. And to this day you can buy blue blocking sunglasses. They still sell. But yeah, so his thing was to, and this is selling 1 0 1, he just applied it to Dr Print, you know, sit down and you think about what I mean, any Amazon seller knows these things because there is a section on every page where you try to anticipate questions and give answers or people submit questions and you give answers. So his idea was to include that if you have, he said it in a funny way, he said, raise an answer, obvious questions and objections, but make sure you have a good answer. Yes,

Brett:

Yes, yes,

Jordan:

Totally. So don't raise it if you don't have a good answer, but to anticipate what people are going to say, like that's not real or whatever. So then you show them that it's real or that this can't possibly do X and then you think of a way to show that. So if you have a good answer, anticipate, again, that's just selling 1 0 1, but he applied it to Dr. Number eight, present a powerful offer at an incredible price. I mean that is what was it Sounds like it. It's become a bit mundane crossing out the higher price and putting the lower price. But Dr. Infomercial marketers kind of pioneered all this stuff.

Brett:

It still works and it still works online. And we've tested this quite a bit. And we have clients that will test this during holiday sales or whatever. Having that was priced, that's marked out. And then the current price, it's powerful. It's got that psychological effect of, hey, I want to buy this anyway and now you're giving me a little extra justification and a little extra logic that I can use to say, yeah, okay, I'm doing the right thing here. I'm making a smart choice to buy this. I'm saving money to buy this product. So that's fine. Yeah, still

Jordan:

Works. Save saving more money than I'm spending.

And of course along with that goes all the techniques. Some people don't use them anymore, they've fallen out of favor. They're a little bit manipulative. But sometimes if you can do supplies are limited and things like that, all the infomercial guys pioneered every technique you can think of. Supplies are limited. Act now. Act now. And you get a special discount reasons to, there's so many ways you can use this. One of the modern innovations that I've seen that I thought was pretty clever is obviously when you're at a commercial, some percentage of people, a growing percentage every day are going to go to Amazon and find your, they're going to skip your website, they're not going to call your number, they're not going to go to your website, they're going to go to Amazon, they're going to search. So they're going to find competitors. And you don't really want that ideally.

So we used to have this offer not available in stores, which was true cause you can get a bonus item or something only on TV that was incentive to call us and order direct. But now it's seen one of the top players saying, this offer only is not available on Amazon. The product on Amazon of course, because you'd be stupid not to have it there, but they have a special offer, a TV offer that you can only get by going to their website. So that's incentivizing come into my sales funnel and stay away from all those competitors and knockoffs and stuff that you're going to find when you go to.

Brett:

And I guess that that's even powerful even if you are selling your own product on Amazon. And we've seen this a lot by the way, quick side note, we help brands launch on Amazon, we do it all the time. And yeah, we found successful companies that are really good at running their own ads and driving traffic through Facebook or YouTube and they're generating this little business, little ecosystem on Amazon of people that are feeding off of their brand or off of their ads. And so then once we launch their brand on Amazon, then they can get those sales. But I'm guessing even if it's your listing, even if you're controlling Amazon, you still probably want to drive some traffic to your own funnel once you get the customer data and all that. But also you probably need to get some of that data pretty quickly to know that the campaign is working, right? Cause you need that feedback to know is the Dr TV campaign working and you need that more in real time than probably can get from Amazon.

Jordan:

Yeah, yeah. It's solving Amazon is I'm sure is a big challenge for everyone. It is. It's been a challenge for us as well as that's evolved to the numbers are crazy and of course I'm part of the problem because I love my Amazon Prime too. Totally. So I think everyone's trying to solve that. It's become a big part. Like I said when I started 5% web, still having mail-in orders. Now of course web is so dominant and Amazon's just eating all that. So phone is talk about phone, people are like what people call in and order. It seems so antiquated, but it still happens significantly enough that we would put phone numbers obviously still. But yeah, become everything became web and now everything's becoming Amazon.

Brett:

So what are those breakdowns now between phone, website and Amazon? Do you know? It probably varies but

Jordan:

Averaging the averages, I would say up to half of your direct sales we're going to come from Amazon or people are going to go to Amazon, maybe 40% I've heard. I don't have a good numbers, but I'm just, I mean this is take it with a grain of salt back of the envelope. And then I think phones probably got to be down to like 20%, but it's still significant. So it's still

Brett:

Significant.

Jordan:

And again, it would depend too on what you're selling. Obviously a lot of people are using hybrid model of DR where they're doing branding and they're driving to web and they're doing other things. E-commerce, the.com people are doing DR. Now performance driven marketing. So that wouldn't apply to them. But when we're talking about classic as on tv, I'd say maybe 20% phone, 30% your microsite, the rest Amazon, something like that. Yeah, I mean Amazon. Yeah, that makes sense. Amazon just eaten everything.

Brett:

Makes sense. Awesome. Yeah. So back to t and t. Were we ready for number nine?

Jordan:

T n t? Yes. Use it. It's dynamite. Yes. So you present a power powerful offer, an incredible price, and then you increase your perceived value with a value comparison. So you could pay a hundred dollars for this, but today you'll get this better product for only 1999. So we do a lot of comparisons. Sometimes it's just a matter of no, if we go back a few years, we used to zero in on a, this is going to sound really dated too, like catalog page. Yeah. We use webpages at some point where you zoom in on the price and you circle in red and it's like look how much this is. Well

Brett:

Even saw that you guys know tack light, right? I think you use Zoom into an Amazon listing and show it these are $59 but not tack light.

Jordan:

Yes. Seven or eight years ago when we shot that, yeah, that was still a, I mean I would use it today, but I don't know exactly how I would use it because I mean it's moving so fast, but back then it was still a good selling technique. And there's all these techniques by the way they evolve, but there's still the fundamentals. So fundamentals just a question of figuring out how to apply value comparing today, but especially if there's the first one to break price, and again I got to put the asterisks of Amazon is because now it's becoming much more common to find all different price points. But the fundamental technique is to find someone who's selling something for an expensive price and then be the first one to, to break the price. So we used to do that all the time. We would, whether it was on live shopping or even an infomercial going into to short form, we would break the price. It would be 60 and we'd bring it down to 1999, fortune point 99. So if you can break a price, you definitely want to call that out in your advertising, the first one to be at this crazy price.

Brett:

Love it, love it. So number 10, the grand finale of t and t

Jordan:

Number 10 is actually the title of one of the books that we mentioned. A guy named Aloff wrote a book called or Money Back. He's the guy who coined that phrase. And conceptually it's minimizing risk with a satisfaction guarantee. Again, something that might seem mundane, people don't give it as much thought as they should. And somebody who's a really conscientious marketer should think about ways to innovate in this space. How good can you make that guarantee? We used to, it was in the beginning it was as simple in the ally cuff days, simple as if you're not completely satisfied, we'll give you your money back, no questions asked. That was innovative at that time. And then it became we'll pay, I'm sure you've seen in some of the early web days, we'll pay you to return shipping. Yeah, we'll triple, we'll give you triple the money back.

I think it was Pope who'll used to do certain crazy. You'll lose money on that when people use your abuse you for your guarantee. And I looked at the numbers and it's like a small fraction, we'll actually fill it out and send it in. You had a couple hurdles to jump through and he was like, it's worth it for the ones that get through the process and go through all that trouble, it's just worth it to pay them double or whatever it is to have the power of that marketing. And Sugarman's, Sugarman was a fan of that as well. He would give these, I think he called it satisfaction, not satisfaction, total satisfaction guarantees or something like that. I don't remember the exact terminology, but his idea was like, this guarantee is so good that people will actually think you are getting ripped off. And that gives them the confidence to take that final step and close the sale.

Brett:

Which makes a lot of sense. And yeah, you mentioned free shipping both ways. I think Zappos was one of the early ones to do that online. Yes. And they realize that that's the biggest hurdle for someone to buy shoes online, is that it's not going to be the right size and returning, it's going to be a nightmare. It's going to cost a lot of money. So they invested actually marketing dollars into those returns. So free shipping both ways, no questions asked. We'll exchange it. Yeah.

Jordan:

Well what is Prime doing? Prime doing the same thing. You can just don't even put it in a box, just literally throw it through the window of your local ups and we'll take it back and give you a refund. They're making it as frictionless as possible. Totally. And that's the concept. Yeah,

Brett:

That's the concept. And that increases consumption and demand and sales enough to make it worth any of the hoops you have to jump through as a business or the added cost as a business. It if far outweighs that, so love that. Well man, that was gold. So you got the Divine seven actually with the grade eight and then 10 tried and true. So that's fantastic. So we're up against time a little bit, but I don't want to get this short cause it's been awesome. So just a couple more things that I want to chat about as we wrap up. You know said you could know it in as early as a couple weeks that this is working when, what do have to see to know that your DRTV campaign is working and talk just a little bit about the math behind DRTV. 

Jordan:

Yes. So usually in two weekends that's usually how we run weekend to weekend testing. We've erred on enough cable networks, major cable networks to get the so each, and again this is changing a little bit. Attribution as in everything is becoming a bit tricky, but I'll just talk about the general model when it was phone and web and things that you can key would've a different phone number in every commercial that ran every station. This is called keyed marketing, it comes to print as well. And then we would match up the server logs for the times that the, based on when the commercial aired, matched it up with the server logs to know what orders are coming from where. So we get pretty granular in that regard of we added on these 10 stations over the course of a week or two weekends. And most of the media is on the weekends that airs.

And then you know immediately get, you get daily reports, you get a weekly report and a few days after that you get a final report. We include some sales that trickle in, we call it drag. But looking at those numbers again, the key metric in as on TV is the cost per order cpo. So it's basically your ad spend divided by the orders that you got. It's similar to a cost per acquisition. And based on that number and based on experience, I have a little spreadsheet business model that factors in all the costs. We already know what number we're aiming for. Every campaign has a pre-calculated breakeven and obviously if you get below that breakeven, you're lower, the CPO the better and you're golden. So yeah, it's very fast. And we can also what's called buy manage. So that's what a direct response agency will do based on which stations are performing, which rotations, which is a certain time of day is performing. You can get pretty granular with that as well. Even down to the hour, they will buy the ones out that are not driving sales based on the data they have and they'll heavy up on the ones that are driving sales. Totally makes sense. So that's basically how it works in a nutshell. Do you have any more?

Brett:

No, it's perfect. Yeah, so it's your media buying at that point. You're optimizing just like we would do online. But then I know one of the questions that I have and that I'm sure others do as well, how does a product like Tack Light sell for 1495 and how do you make money? Because you're spending a lot on the CPOs, what are they, like a dollar. But for products like that, are you really relying on upsells and cross-sells things on the backend or talk about that a little bit.

Jordan:

And there's a science to that as well and some techniques that I've collected and applied over the years, of course it is upsells, your average sale is not Fortune 99. It could be back in the day. It could be as high as $60 off of a $10 initial offer. So there's a lot of things happening on the backend, things that that you really can't do as efficiently on Amazon. You can do on a web microsite and on the phone of course as well. And the biggest things are just this word deluxe that's worth listening to this podcast. People like Deluxe, if you apply this word deluxe to something for some psychological weird reason that nobody knows, but it's been proven over and over again, over a hundred years of direct selling people, people will order it. So we used to see strange things. I don't know 40% of customers will order a deluxe. Why? Wow. Because you called it deluxe?

Brett:

No, the deluxe. We all want the deluxe. Deluxe. We can tell our friends deluxe show, well when this is the deluxe, no big deal.

Jordan:

What does that mean? It can be a color even. Well this is in the copper gold color. Oh, okay. And people will go for it. So it's a very powerful word. We obviously try to deliver some extra value and make the product a deluxe product. So that was key. And we did that upfront. We'd always order ordered these things, by the way, in the order of most converting to the least converting based on all the history and knowledge that we had. So deluxe is first obviously multiples of the same thing that you ordered. For some reason people like to order two and three, especially if you give 'em an incentive. We used to see crazier things there. I had a producer friend called the Mooch Factor, and that even applies to the commercial by the way. So we used to offer a lot of bonus, little bonus items, throw away things that you get for free if you order now.

And then we started doing a lot of buy one get ones because for some reason it didn't matter what it was. You might say to yourself, why would anybody need two of these? But for some reason if you give them two, it stimulates the sale. So you can apply that on the back end as well. People who obviously bought one, they're more likely to buy two or three. You can make arguments. We have classic arguments like buy one for you and one for your family and one for your friends and one for your mom. So one for the house and one for the car is a classic as seen on TV arguments. So those two things alone drove most of the backend revenue or drive most of the backend revenue. And then little things like you can do a longer guarantee, like a war, longer warranties, which is familiar to people who have ever bought a vacuum cleaner at a department store back in the day or any electronic item at a Best Buy.

They're always, or even now on Amazon, they're trying to sell you guarantees and insurance all the time. Totally. So we would do a little bit of that accessories. It sort of trickled down to smaller and smaller percentages. A lot of times we load it up and then pair it back as we saw what people were responding to. Because you get all that data too. The phone center gives you all the data, the website obviously. And you can study that and say, okay, this is converting and this is not converting, swap things out. It's a very scientific endeavor in that regard. And that we keep iterating, we keep trying different offers on tv. We keep trying different things on the backend to maximize that average sale.

Brett:

And is there usually a certain magic number you're going for where maybe you're offering it for 1499 or 1999, but you're trying to get 50, 60 as the average order value?

Jordan:

So we have a thing that's similar to I guess ROAS we call it. And it may be if people have heard of it. Media efficiency ratio. Yeah, totally. Some call it ratio. So two to one was the gold standard and everyone was shooting for a two to one in terms of revenue to advertising spend. That was, as a general rule of thumb, that's what we were shooting for. And then of course got better than that three, four to one. If you got a four to one, you're popping champagne and

Brett:

Yeah, nuts. You're buying all the airtime you can possibly buy at that

Jordan:

Point by the world supply. My first boss in this industry, Andy Kuban, used to, when he got really excited and we had William Low CPOs, he would call up the agency and he would say, buy the World Supply of Media.

Brett:

So that's

Jordan:

That. Say, what do you

Brett:

Do it company wants to get, they're like, you got it. I will buy everything right now. So that's awesome. Jordan, this has been an absolute blast. This totally lived up to expectations. Super fun. I'm actually quite bummed that we need to wrap up here, but we are for sure running out time. So couple of quick things. Well first of all, just mention this as we Rapid fire, favorite projects you've worked on. And then I want to talk about how people can connect with you. Maybe they want to tip their toes in the DRTV or may just want to learn more. So we'll talk about that in a second. But Rapid Fire, favorite campaigns you've been involved with and why?

Jordan:

Yeah. So the first one is Nearest and dearest to my heart would be the finishing touch line of personal hair removals. It became Micro-Touch and a bunch of other products that eventually became flawless and is now with church and Dwight. It was a big sale in our business, but that was the first one I worked on. So those are the first campaigns that I worked on. So those are near and dear I, I've done a bunch of fun stuff with I, I've worked with Billy Mays, so anything I did with him was always fun. The, there's a, it's on YouTube now as well. There was a short-lived discovery show called Pitchman, which started Billy Mays and Anthony Sullivan. And I'm actually in one of those episodes. Nice. And I had done a deal my five of my 15 minutes of fame, I guess. So I worked on a few pods with him that we did the Magic Mesh years ago. Magic Mesh, which is a curtain, a mesh curtain. It's like a screen you can walk through and it closes is automatically behind you. That one's near and dear, because it was the first one I did with Fred Paddock and Paddock Productions out of Kansas City. Shout out to them the home of the Super Bowl Champs.

Brett:

Absolutely. Go Cheese man. I'm from KC originally. Huge cheese man.

Jordan:

Yeah. So that was the first project we did together. Became a big success and aired for many years. And then like all the attack light stuff that we've done, Nick Bolton, it's been great to work with. He's, he's a spokesman. It was all the fun stuff that we did. Fun pseudo military type stuff that we did over the years. It's been eight or nine years I think now that we've been shooting commercials for that and introducing new items. So all those have been great. Nick's great. The Paddock team, which did that as well is great. So I've had so much fun on all those commercials, thinking of new ways, new things to run it over with. We went to a tank park and you can actually drive a tank at somewhere in Missouri. And we went there and ran over a bunch of products with a giant tank and crushed a car. I think that's a picture on my website if you go over

Brett:

Where Missouri. Cause I'm in Missouri, I'm in Springfield, so I'm about two and a half hours

Jordan:

Southeast. No, it's not Missouri. Sorry, I misspoke. It's in either, it's in Minnesota. Minnesota, it's called a tank.com. You can probably just Google it and you'll find it, but you can actually go there and drive a tank. And we went there for the day and shot a bunch of really fun stuff. So thinking of, just imagine you're on your 26th or 27th tack commercial and you're like, okay, what could we possibly run this thing over with Now we've done everything. I've done a monster truck, I've done. So it, it's so much fun just trying to come up with these ideas.

Brett:

One, upping yourself on production, which is awesome. Yeah. Fantastic. So for those that say, Hey, I want to keep learning from Jordan, I want to check out some of his articles, some of his materials, where can they do that? And then what if they want to work with you, how can they get in touch with you that way?

Jordan:

Yeah, so I have the companies you mentioned, my consulting company's called SciMark, S C I M A R K. So if you just go to SciMark.com, you can find Humble

Brett:

About science and marketing. Easy to

Jordan:

Remember. Yeah. Yes, that that's Hopkins. Hopkins Scientific Advertising, which you mentioned, which you knew, which I was impressed by. Yeah, I've

Brett:

Got on the shelf in the office.

Jordan:

Yes. That was a very inspirational book for me. So when I named my consulting company, I named it after that. So scientific marketing, so cymar.com, it's got a bunch of stuff on everything you want to know to find out more about me and contact me. And then I write a weekly sub. Used to be a blog. I've been doing it since 2007. It's sort of inside baseball about this industry. It's called the SciMark Report, which you can find on CK and LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn so you can find all my contact stuff and websites and projects and everything. On LinkedIn. I have a YouTube channel, SciMark channel, which has all my commercials on it. If you care to peruse my collection. I think

Brett:

You got to. They're fantastic. And so if you enjoyed this podcast, you need to go to the YouTube channel and watch it and also get the CK as well. So Awesome. Great. Good stuff. And then did you mention Paragon?

Jordan:

Yeah, Paragon. So Paragon is, Paragon is my product company. We do our own products. We design, manufacturing and supply. I do the commercials. My partner Bill Corvis does all the China side development and logistics and managing the supply chain. So we partnered up later on after he brought me into the industry and I got some experience and he did his thing. We later on partnered up in this company called Paragon, where we like the tech, tech projects are actually our products. We've developed them, we do all of our own products now, but Nice. For many years. I just did consulting for other people and then I started doing my own commercials and my own projects. So most of the ones we talked about on my own products as well as commercials or our own, I should say. Sure. From Paragon. Yeah.

Brett:

Awesome. Well, Jordan, this has been an absolute blast. Looking forward to doing part two at some point, or maybe we can talk about how these things work on YouTube at some point. But just fabulous job. Super, super fun. And yeah, thanks for coming on.

Jordan:

Great. Thanks for having me. It was great talking to

Brett:

You. Absolutely. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We'd love to hear from you. What would you like to hear more of on the show? And if you love this episode, which I bet you did, share it with someone that you think might benefit from it. And hey, if you haven't done it already, we'd love that review on iTunes, helps other people discover the show. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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Chris Brewer is an agency veteran, marketing expert, and former golf pro. Not to mention my business partner and OMG Commerce’s co-founder.

Each year, Chris has the privilege of talking with hundreds of DTC brands, both big and small. He hears about their goals, struggles, plans, and more. As a strategist, I also consult with large-scaling eComm brands. Through our perspectives, we’d like to highlight ways in which great brands get in their own way and offer some candid advice when it comes to working with agencies. 

We love the brands we talk to and the clients we serve. But, like anyone else, brands can sometimes overlook how they inadvertently hinder their own growth. Here are a few topics we cover that we hope you’ll find helpful:

• Having goals that aren’t battle-tested.
• Still thinking like it’s 2020 in some areas of your business.
• Prioritizing automation and tools over strategy.
• Shooting for perfect data and ignoring actionable data.
• Stopping short of getting results.

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• Chris Brewer (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (Twitter)

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Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG commerce. And today we have the man himself, the co-founder of OMG Commerce, a repeat guest on the podcast, although it has been too long, some might say since he's been on the podcast. But today I have my business partner, Chris Brewer, on the show. Chris, how's it going? And thanks for taking the time.

Chris:

Thank you, Brett. I was beginning to think that I was in the penalty box. I really was. I wasn't saying I wasn't pushing, and then the invitation came.

Brett:

Yeah, well, what have I done? Why am I getting the invite back to the podcast? We previous shows were so good, and actually you still may hold the record for one of, I think Ezra has the record record, but that's that. That's understandable. It's Ezra Firestone, but you've got one of the top downloaded shows in the history of this show.

Chris:

It's a good thing I spent $12 on that fiber guy.

Brett:

Exactly, exactly. So hey, today, I'm really excited about this episode one because I do enjoy chatting with you and fun stuff always happens when we're on a call together or chatting. And so I know this will be no different, but we're going to get into some straight talk here. We're going to hopefully be transparent, maybe a little bit blunt, but in a loving way, and talk about from our perspective how D2C brands sabotage their own success. So how might you, dear listener and friend and beloved D2C brand owner, how might you be sabotaging your own success? And we only share this out of love, compassion, because we want you to succeed because we have to look at these things from our own perspective. When we talk to other agencies and we talk to clients and we ask, Hey, how do agencies sabotage their success? How do we as an agency, how are we tripping over ourselves and making mistakes potentially? And so hopefully this will be helpful. Now, Chris has a unique perspective because he talks to DDC DDC brands day in and day out. So Chris, I want to get into your background too, for those that don't know you, but what do you do on a day in and day out basis at OMG Commerce

Chris:

Day in day, day out, it starts early here at the home office. Got to get some solid coffee in me could do a plug because I just finished up my big box of just went blank on the name.

Brett:

Sounds like you need another cup, I

Chris:

Need need another cup. But it's just like all natural pod coffee that we have from, so you're

Brett:

Rocking the keur

Chris:

Egg, I'm rocking the Keur egg and starting off there and then my day starting out with looking at meetings coming up. So because I think we recently totaled this up and we knew it was a low estimate, but I'm talking with at least 25 brands a month-ish over, well over 200 conversations a year with not just D toc, but occasionally CPG brands, occasionally B2B com brands, but obviously a prevalence in the, and

Brett:

That's just tracked calls through One Source. You're also going to trade shows and you're getting on impromptu calls which don't end up in the CRM and several other things. So yeah, that's a really low estimate. But yeah. Yeah, you're talking to a lot of people.

Chris:

Oh yeah. I'm talking to a lot of people and I'm also active in some forums, e-commerce Fuel and Blue Ribbon Mastermind. And so I'm always trying to keep my finger on the pulse of what brands are talking about, just staying on top of trends. So between keeping my hand on the finger of, or the pulse of those kind of things. And then the calls I get really, it's kind of a cool place because I hear about stuff that's coming before it really gets out there in articles and blogs and posts and things like that. And I also, for the topic of this pod podcast also have been experienced to how D2C brands can sabotage their own success. And sometimes that's how they arrive because that's happened and we try to repair and sometimes counsel.

Brett:

Yeah, yep, exactly. And so yeah, you've got a unique perspective. One of the best ways to learn is to have your ear to the ground to talk to actual customers and clients because things just come out the fears, concerns, hopes, dreams, all that comes out when you're on these calls. And so we're going to dive in and hopefully provide some insight into what are ways you can better set yourself up for success, whether you're working with an agency or an in-house team or whatever the case may be. But how can you D2C brand really succeed and accelerate growth this year and beyond? So before we dive into that topic though, Chris, give folks like the 6 30, 60, 90 second background. Who is Chris Brewer? What did you do pre OMG and lay that on us.

Chris:

Wow, I got to go back 14 years to go pre omg. It's been a long time. But before that I was a multi-time entrepreneur. I had a direct mail company doing postcards and mass mailings in a localized area. Prior to that I was actually in digital me or in the digital printing field for billboards and an agency for outdoor advertising placement. So I've been on the traditional side of media with direct mail and out outdoor. And then I've also had jobs, I've had real jobs with companies of VP of marketing for a franchise group for a short and somewhat painful period. And then also was in national sales, helped lots of trade publication in the golf maintenance industry of all places. So a real interesting background, but obviously for the last 14 years I've been eating, drinking, sleeping, bleeding, and digital media.

Brett:

I think it's 13, but it's close. It probably feels like 14. How would you Yeah, because it's 2010. Anyway, it doesn't matter. 13, 14,

Chris:

That's when we officially started when we went to the event I thought was 2009.

Brett:

Oh, that could have been, you could be right. I'm thinking of incorporation. Anyway,

Chris:

When we actually started the, Hey, let's try Google Maps for local businesses

Brett:

Conversation. I think that may have been 2009. That is a good, really good point. Now you threw this out there really quickly, but I want to key in on it just for a second. You mentioned golf. What's your background of golf? Because I know we had some golfers listen to the show, they'd be fascinated to know your background with the sport of golf.

Chris:

I played high school golf, I played college golf and I went after my senior year of college. My parents were thrilled to hear that I was not going to go get a job. Instead, I was going to go try playing the mini tours. I played the mini tours in Texas and Florida for a couple of years where my favorite joke, I was the leading money spender. So even though I was quite good, I was not good enough and also just really didn't like the life on the road. So after that, I played amateur golf for obviously been playing amateur golf since then. And now I'm just a hack, just like anybody else can go out some days and shoot a nice little 74 and other days it could be an 85. And I'm burying my head in my sorrows and my wife hates those days. But I still love it. And I still rate golf courses for Golf Week magazine. So I travel, I'm headed to California and I'm taking my clubs next week and I'm going to try to find in between a couple of shows, some nice golf courses I can go rate for the magazine. So that's what I do to stay connected.

Brett:

It's amazing. It's just a reminder. There are different levels of good because if you were to go out and golf with any normal person, they'd be like, whoa, this guy's amazing. And you are, you're good. But then there's certain levels even of world class. So kudos to you for being on the tour for keeping the passion up. Yeah. So let's dive in man. So let's talk about D2C brands. How do they sabotage success? I've got several tactical things I'm going to share and I'm going to kind of chime in as you share some thoughts, but we'll just go in no particular order here. We'll just share based on your perspective, several hundred conversations a year. Where do D2C brand owners trip over themselves or sabotage their own success?

Chris:

Yeah, I think one of the ones, I'll kind of skip around on my list cause I kind of went just random thinking. But one of the things that I think is a good place to start is what I wrote down. They don't battle test their goals. And what I mean by that is one of the questions we ask, because I say this 10 times a week, it seems we're a low volume agency. We're very picky about who we bring on board. So we need to understand if our goals are in alignment. So I'll ask, what does success look for you in the next six months? Be as clear as you can in terms of your metrics. And so I'll give you an example from 25 minutes ago, I had a Shark Tank brand, I won't mention who it was, but they said we want to double sales in 2023 with a five to one marketing efficiency ratio.

So now what I don't know from that and what we actually didn't explore in the call, cause I ran out of time, but is like how did you come up with that number? How is that battle tested? How is that viable? And actually in our team's field, I tell people that we're going to take what you give me and we're going to look in your account. And that's always fun is sometimes you get, hey, we got to have a five to one return on ad spin and we want to grow three x in the next two years. We look in their account that may have some history. They have never hit that number, never, not even close. So they haven't battle tested their goals, but they have an idea or a wish or a pipe dream that if they got on with, I could just say any, A lot of other agencies, they're just going to say, sure, we'd love your business. Yeah, we'll

Brett:

Give it a shot. We'll give it a shot, we'll give it a it a

Chris:

Go. And then that's why, that's where then we see later in forums that I'm attending, agencies suck. They're terrible. And a lot of times it's just like they started out completely misaligned whether they knew it or not.

Brett:

Yeah, I do like that thought a lot. If you're got a goal and we all need to have goals, you need to know what direction are you headed. And this something we talk about a lot as an agency is that goals help set direction, but it's like the habits and the daily practices and your daily routines and what you do consistently, that's what actually brings results, not goals, but if you're shooting for something that is unattainable or unreasonable, you are setting yourself up for failure. Yeah. And the five to one merges for those listening to unpack that a little bit, that's where you're looking at spending 25% of your total revenue on marketing basically, or 20%, sorry, where you want to get a five to one return on your marketing dollars. And that's looking at total revenue, total ad spend, that type of thing. When you're looking at RO ads, that's when you're looking at return on ad spend in platform.

So what is Facebook or Google or TikTok or what are they reporting in terms of sales generated from your ad spend? And yeah, it's a really valid point, Chris, that if your goal is something that you've never hit before and never even gotten close, then it begs the question, what makes you think you can get there? And agents, some agencies are good, our team is really good. We know some other agencies that are rock solid, but we're not miracle workers. You need to know, hey, who is your market and what are your landing pages and things like that. And so yeah, battle testing your goals. I like that.

Chris:

And piggybacking on that a bit, which leads into another topic is sometimes what's happened is just in the last, let's call it three, four years of the D2C C boom including the covid boom, is that some brands are still wearing their masks figuratively because they're living in, well hey, we did this in 2020, how can we get back to that? And a lot of times I'm finding which I is regrettable in some ways, it's great when I can talk to a brand that's been around since 2010 or 2012 or 2014, we can go back and see the progression and where things were. Whereas a lot of brands launched 28, late 20 18, 20 19, they don't have reality. And also before a lot of the data changed and things that allowed really rapid scale on meta and other platforms. So I think that's why it's so important to have really great advisors, whether it's a consultant or an agency or another brand that you trust that can help break through some of those things to find what is the real truth here.

Brett:

I like it. And just kind of piggyback on that, what are some of the things that maybe brand owners don't understand or just aren't admitting about the current environment that are potentially tripping them up?

Chris:

Well, the current environment right now is just on a call with 12 individuals late last night, 9, 9, 10 o'clock. One of them works with large VC funded brands, people with 5,000, 150 million in the bank. He said they're not spending the money completely pulled back

Brett:

In terms of new investments, new acquisitions, things like that,

Chris:

Right? And so with that, what I see is just they stop taking risks in the current environment. And so there's this pullback, there's this foxhole that hey, we're going to wait this out, we're going to reduce spend. And I dunno if that's in answering your question, but it's related to the same topic in terms of not paying attention to the macro environment and just having blinders to that,

Brett:

Right? Yeah. It's easy to still take that 2020 mindset of e-commerce is on fire and growing like crazy. And certainly we've had a few reality checks since then or some big shifts since then in terms of supply chain issues and then inflation and slow down and e-com, stuff like that. But it's easy still to get in that previous mindset. But yeah, there's a shift happening now. I think most people have felt it, and I think we're all concerned about where things are headed, but I think we have to sometimes double check. But is my thinking related to this channel or this goal or this platform, is that still rooted in 2020 or is that based on what I'm seeing today? Cool. Well

Chris:

That's I, I'll give you a compliment. I think you've done a really great job from a CEO and leader perspective, leader perspective in the e-commerce space is really champion championing third party data and tools and where is your source of truth? That's a one question you told me to ask and it's been a great question, which is, and I think that's a good sabotage that I didn't write down. I don't know that you did either, was just what is your source of truth? It may be good to spend a little bit of time because there may be really folks also on the podcast going third party attribution. What do you mean?

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good one. I did write down something related to attribution and getting the right data, but yeah, understanding what is your source of truth going to be? And we talk to very sophisticated d TOC brands that have all kinds of custom tracking and they've marked up different Google analytics reports and they've got backend tracking and they've got their CR CRM connected to Shopify and they're doing complex stuff where other people, the people that just mainly manage what they're seeing inside of Facebook and inside of Google. And there's not really a right or wrong, but the key is what is your source of truth going to be? So what do you believe the most, and really the most important thing there is what metrics are you measuring that lead to the right business and financial outcome? This is something that I talked about with Robert Ray Hill from Triple Whale and talked about this with others and we talk about it internally is that you can't just obsess over return on ad spend, right?

Return on ad spend is important, but it's only important if it's impacting your business metrics. It's only important if it's helping actually grow sales and grow profits and make you a more valuable company. You can't take row ads to the bank. And so it is understanding, okay, what is our source of truth? What do we believe the most? What is the most accurate, knowing that nothing is 100% accurate when it comes to attribution and performance tracking, and then what lines up with our business goals. And so one of the things that I wrote down is I think there's some brands that are obsessing over perfect or they're obsessing over getting it right instead of obsessing over actionable, let's get data that's actionable, at least directionally accurate so we can make good decisions, know where to spend more money, where to spend less money rather than obsessing over being perfect.

Chris:

Boy, that is a big one, and I actually, I had took one of my takeaways from the Harvard Business Review and actually that was one of the other elements in the Harvard Business Review about just why businesses and general sabotage their success. And that is a focus on perfection rather than allowing some of the things that, especially in e-commerce sales are going to be coming into play. And I hear that some of the potential partners that we gently decline are those individuals where I'm picking up vibes on the call that there's not going to be much room on either side of the line and that's going to lead to a bad outcome usually.

Brett:

For sure, for sure. Cool. What are some of the other things that you've noticed where brands get in their own way?

Chris:

One is kind of keeping your eye off the ball on your inventory. I could pivot just real quick to the Amazon space because this was another one that came up today. Brand was having an incredible traction and they had a big lift in sales that was caused by some external factors. They hadn't thought that through and they hadn't ordered enough stock and they went out of stock and going out of stock on Amazon, it's like it's the last thing, want to, it's one of the last things you want to have happen. And so they were talking about how long is it going to take us to recover this and what are we going to need to do? But out allowing things, keeping your eye off the ball, whether it's your inventory or your basics or if you're a brand leader that you've got other people on your team making sure there's a reporting cadence where they can come to you with these executive summary types of things in the business like that maybe you don't, aren't able to keep your eye on this, but make sure somebody is and that you're looking at those things.

Brett:

Yeah, it's really good. While we're on the topic of Amazon, I've got one to share here that I think has come up a lot. We've noticed this trend happened starting several years ago. We do a lot with Amazon advertising and the trend has definitely been for both agencies and brands to adopt automation, to use tools that automate bids, take some of the manual labor out of managing your ads, and it's not all bad. I think in the early days of those tools, we would've argued and we had the data to back it up that you could do better doing manual adjustments, but nobody really wants to do manual adjustments. But here, here's the mistake that I see people making. I think there's some brands out there that value automation over strategy. They believe that if we can just automate some of these little things, that's all we need.

And so let's pay less money for that. Let's go affordable, we'll just automate and we'll move on when really strategy is what moves the needle, not the automation piece or not the little bidding up and bidding down. And so that's what we have been preaching on the Amazon side, but also in the DDC space for Shopify stores. And with Google is that the overall strategy you take, whether it's with your Shopify store, big commerce or whatever, or on Amazon, that's what matters. And really some of the other things are just to support your strategy. But that's where I think agencies and smart marketing directors and people with just a good marketing mind will always be valuable regardless of what happens with AI and automation and things like that. You need the strategy piece. And so you've got to prioritize that, I believe over automation. So utilize ai, utilize automation, but prioritize strategy and utilizing platforms to reach your goals.

Chris:

Yeah, that's great.

Brett:

Awesome. What are some other things that you notice that pop up, whether it's related to actual tactical marketing stuff or just the way people show up or the way they think or communicate? What are you saying?

Chris:

One quick one that I just think is a great reminder because things come in waves and things, even in e-commerce, they get repopulated and they fade. One thing that to me has faded and I think it's possible that it faded because there was so much attention on it for so many years and we harped on it and we tested every single brand that came through and said, you got to fix this. But it's starting now to see some feedback from our strategists when we're reviewing brands like, Hey, your page speed sucks. Yeah, so there was this focus because just on the Google side, for instance, having good quality score on your ads, for instance, page plays into that. If you've got a slow rendering mobile site or a slow rendering desktop site, that that's also slow rendering on the ads and it's just going to provide a bad experience overall. And so also the page tools that just Google has have been, it used to be junk, but it's improved a lot over the last several years. So one of the things I would do, and just because you're a Shopify store, you may think, oh, I got no control because Shopify, there's a lot that you can optimize with page speed on Shopify. Sometimes it's as simple as the kind of font that you're using and what's loading. So that's just a one little quick take is page speed.

Brett:

Yeah, and what's interesting about that is I think because that was a hot topic years ago, we talked about page speed a lot it seems like four or five years ago, I think now a lot of people just assume that their website is fast. To your point, I'm on Shopify, it's fine, I got it taken care of. You need to look. You still need to check because, and Google's got some tools that they use for page speed and it's basically the same tool they use when they're analyzing your landing page and determining will this be a good user experience or not. And that will impact your ad performance. So page speed still valuable, you still got to pay attention to it. So another thing that I want to kind of highlight, and this will kind of tie into some tactical stuff, is mistake that we see people making.

Cause we audit dozens and dozens of Google ads accounts and Amazon ad accounts and seller central accounts on a yearly basis, some months, dozens in a single month is a lot of people are stopping short of getting a conversion. And I'll throw a couple words out there. We're all running remarketing ads, we're all trying to get people to buy. Again, we're all running email and stuff like that, but as we dig a little deeper and pull back the curtains or look under the hood or whatever metaphor you want to use, we found that most people just aren't doing this very well. I get to speak at D2CX retain an event that gorgeous put together in LA last year, and one of the points that I made was like remarketing is one of those things that everybody is doing and almost everybody sucks at.

And that's not to be mean the way it is. We look at it, we're like, oh yeah, I've got a remarketing campaign, I'm all good. But really what we need is if we're running any kind of top of funnel traffic, Facebook, YouTube, whatever, how are we engaging with people that just viewed that they were interested enough to just watch the ad, but that's all they did. How are we building audiences there and trying to market those people again, how are we finding people that all they did was click on one lander, they did nothing else? How are we continuing to share a message with them and move them further down the purchased funnel and maybe share with them a unique offer or unique perspective or give them more of what they need to make a decision? What about people that add to cart or what about someone that's purchased one time, but that's it, right?

I think one of the mistakes that people make, and I hear people talk about this or they want to shift their strategies that makes me think this. We assume that because somebody bought one time they'll buy again, or we assume that because they purchased that we don't have to market to them again, which is absolutely not true. People are not thinking about your brand nearly as much as you think they are. You're an afterthought. We're an afterthought to a lot of people. So you've got to be reminding, recommending cross-selling, upselling, but you've got to do it in a strategic way because the other thing we see is that there's a ton of waste when it comes to remarketing people remarketing to huge windows of audiences. People that have been around for 360 days and stuff like that are treating those people the same as someone who was just on your site a day or two ago. And so I see a lot of people either stopping short of getting a conversion or just not executing that playbook effectively where they're not getting those conversions they need to be getting.

Chris:

Yeah, we see that. It's always amazing to me that we get, I've seen it occasionally, even with 10 figure brands, it seems like it's more with seven figure brands that I see this. And so if you're a seven figure brand, go check this. And that is just not utilizing all of those audiences that Brett just talked about it. It's low hanging fruit in a lot of instances. The other one, Brett, that we see a lot, and this is fairly recent, but I still find a lot of brand owners are surprised when I say, did you know you can hook Clavio up to Google ads? Did you know that you can keep that fresh list of customer data for similar audiences? Retargeting all synced up. There used to be a time where we would just have to remind brands every 90 days or 60 days or so, depending on their velocity to upload a fresh customer list to Google ads. And again, we find no connection or a list. This was a guy had a hundred thousand clavio list a couple weeks ago and the last time it was updated was September of last year. So that's another thing that, I wouldn't say that that's sabotage necessarily, but it's definitely one of those eyes off the ball type of things.

Brett:

Totally. And there are different levels here. You could be sabotaging or you could just be not leveraging your success. And it's one of those things where you're running ads, you're investing dollars in your efforts, but there's just a few things that are off that are really making some of that money wasted or just allowing, not allowing you to get the full impact of those ad dollars. Cool. What else did you write down in your notes on ways D to C brands sabotage their success?

Chris:

Well, I think this is the part in the podcast, Brett, where I've got to, oh, I've got to back the chair out. Oh, and I've got to stand on my soapbox, which is right

Brett:

Behind me.

Chris:

So forgive me in advance. I know that there are those of you who are wounded and may need therapy from what I'm about to say. And so here's the area

Brett:

I'm curious myself where this is going quite, this is quite

Chris:

Set up. Every I here you get worried and rightfully, but that is brands will lump all agencies in the same box. That's the first segment of this. And the second segment is they don't treat their agency. I'll include freelance. They don't treat their agency or freelance partners like true partners or an in-house team. Where I see in my 14 years of experience here,

Brett:

You've got way more than that.

Chris:

And I've seen it, I've been in marketing 25 years. What I see this over and over again is they've got an individual running things. That individual is doing a good job, but one day that individual comes into work late, they have a talk with that individual, they start coming in on time. Then later that individual messes up with some campaign structure, fails to upload an audience something again, has a conversation. But then everything's great for a long time and they continue working. They stopped, had a conversation, identified the problem, found a solution, and they rectified it. What I see happen so many times with brands that hire agencies is the first time a human being drops the ball or makes a minor mistake, all trust is lost or major trust is lost. How could you guys do that? And yet the brands that we work with that have the conversation, Hey, I noticed this or I noticed that.

And sometimes noticing something or even having another agency call out something, there's actually a reason the agency did not implement that. And so I've seen brands leave agencies over things that were part of the strategy and they never gave the agency a chance to talk it out or discuss why. What are the reasons we do that? I've seen agents, I've seen brands leave agencies over copy that was written for an Amazon storefront that was taken off the Shopify site with, and they were all upset because they thought for sure it wasn't English first content. They're

Brett:

Like, we hate this content, we

Chris:

Hate this content. This is terrible. Some foreign person wrote this overseas person actually that's on your Shopify site. But those are the kinds of things that I would just encourage brands out there, and I even tell people this on discovery calls before we work together at the first hint of mistrust, misalignment, if you're having water cooler conversations with your co-founder at your brand about who you're working with, you are sabotaging your own success by not calling it out and determining an improvement plan to correct the course of action. Because it is just like it's costly when you hire an in-house person, you have to let them go and go and recruit and find someone else and train them up. It is, I could argue it is equally expensive. It is to replace an agency. And what happens sometimes is we're seeing this now in, I've seen this in every recession before every recession that comes, people pull back, I'm going to bring this in house because my brother-in-law's sister's husband used to run Google ads back when he worked for the plumbing company. That's extreme. But they know somebody that's going to run their ads for them and they pull away without asking what else is going on here? Well actually we had four people involved in the account and these kind of things. So I would just say there is malpractice. There are reasons when agencies should,

Brett:

There are bad agencies out there or lazy agencies. There are for

Chris:

Sure there are. But you really do yourself a disservice when you lump everybody together. Because I posted today in an e-commerce forum that I'm in, there is a $1 million brand that was saying, I can never recommend agencies for these reasons. I had this bad experience. And what I tried to gently point out was there are multiple service providers involved in this forum that could point to multi-year multi amounts of clients that have been with them for years. But what we forget sometimes is just the old, I don't know, the adage or proverb or it's not a proverb, it's an adage, probably is an upset client that it's not resolved, will tell so many more people than a happy one. And so many times it's kind of funny too cause I had an Amazon brand tell me one time, there's this big Facebook group with multimillion dollar sellers that I don't have access to. It's a private group. And I was talking about, man, so I hear that everybody's trashing this kind of ad type. It's is actually DSP advertising. Everybody's trashing it. And I just wish the brands had success would support it. And he's like, I'm not going to support it. Yeah. He's like, why would I support, I've got competitors in that group.

Brett:

Totally.

Chris:

Why would I chime in and talk about how awesome this is working for me? And I was like, oh, I get it. But that's what I would caution so many things as people get their KPIs from forums, people get what their goals should be from forums. People get what agent they do your own work. Yeah, figure it out. Okay, yeah, I'm

Brett:

Going to step, get influence, get inspiration, get feedback. You want to know what other people are doing, but don't take that as absolute truth. And a couple interesting things that I'll point out there. I'm

Chris:

Stepping off the soapbox now. I'm back.

Brett:

Oh, you're stepping. Okay. Soapbox right now. Got it. We'll meditate later. And I think, Hey, I love the agency business. I had an agency prior to omg. I really enjoy this type of work. So I'm pro agency, but I believe there's some brands out there that you'll be happier, you'll do better. You'll love life more if you don't work with an agency. Yep, yep. You will do better hiring an in-house team. And in fact, I'll, I'll point out Peter Goodwin, our good friend who started a Groove life silicone wedding ring company. We worked with them for quite a while. We helped them launch on YouTube and on Google. But Peter told me from the beginning, he's like, Hey man, I want to build an in-house team, but I do want to work with you guys that right now cause I know you're the best. And all this became good friends.

We had an awesome client relationship, but he was going to be happier and he wanted to build that in-house team. And he did. We know other brands like p and g as an example, there are other really large groups that they're just built to work with agencies. That's how they function. And we've had a multi-year successful relationship with a large p and g brand. And so you know, get this expertise with an agency that you often can't hire or can't find. But the one thing I'll mention, and then we'll get off your soapbox, you started this is sometimes where people are like, and you've probably heard this comment too, where I just can't find good help, I just can't find it. Good employees, employees are the worst. I remember hearing that a lot at for whatever reason, the old Dan Kennedy super conferences, which I love Dan Kennedy. But everybody at those events, just my perspective back in the day were like, oh, employ you don't want employees. Employees are the worst. So that that's about as intelligent as saying all agencies are bad, not true. Where would we be? Our most valuable resource is our team is our employees and agencies can be valuable too. So awesome. Now that we've moved past that, now that people are sufficiently convinced that agencies are okay, what would you share next? Chris?

Chris:

Really, I mean the last thought I had, this is one I'll source the Harvard Business Review so I can give credit where credit is due. I thought this was really great, that teamwork can be frustrating for very smart people

And that's where they find it sometimes difficult to truly delegate because they got a sense that I can do it better. Regardless of whether or not that's true, especially likely for those, like we were saying earlier, those have a perfectionist streak. So one of the things that we look for when we're evaluating a brand relationship is if we've got an owner, and sometimes these can be multi-million dollar brands, but the owner still got his hands on Google ads because they learned it and that's what they do. And now they realize they got to gather up the baby and they got to pass it over to this other. And what happens, and we've seen this, we saw this a lot during smart shopping years of Google Smart Shopping where we knew that that campaign needed those, I don't know, Brett, four or five days to let the algorithm determine what was going on.

Brett:

Yeah. After you make a change, need to let it do its thing, experiment a little bit before you make the next round of changes.

Chris:

And so this extremely smart, extremely well educated individual who hired us because of what he heard about our expertise on smart shopping, sees the early data on the campaign and before saying anything goes in and pauses it. And we had that happen multiple times. Even though we have in our agreements only we are going to be in the account, all of those things they just can't help themselves. And those are things that then we had to start those things all over and it just causes a lot. Now it's not just keeping your hands off your campaigns and things like that, but it's also just being kind of self-compassionate about your own internal reactions and understand where those come from and generally appreciate what diverse minds bring to a team. That's a quote from the Harvard Business Review. And I think that is a real key.

And sometimes if you find that you're having trouble scaling outside of macroeconomic factors and maybe you look in your rear view mirror and you've had a lot of team members come and go, you've worked with a lot of good agencies that you thought were good agencies but didn't work out, maybe the next stop is the mirror to a self-identify. Like where have I prevented our own success here? And get some expertise, some outside help. Like, Hey, tell me what I should know here. Where am I? Where are my blinders? Be open. That's one of the things I love about our team at OMG is anybody can come to me, the co-founder and say, Hey, I've noticed this about you. I think this is something maybe you could work on. Or, I get frustrated when you do this and there's no power trip over that. Totally. And so l look, sometimes stop and think about, hey, what other factors could be in place here that is preventing my brand from reaching the levels that I believe and others have told me that it could reach.

Brett:

Yeah, really good. I heard another agency owner talk about, I think he called it talented founder syndrome, where as founders we're pretty smart and we're pretty confident and we're willing to push through obstacles and we're generally right about a lot of things. Certainly not everything but right about a lot of things. That's how we've become successful. And so then it becomes difficult to delegate and let loose of some things, but ultimately you have to or you're going to get, get stuck. And so really good insights. Chris, thanks for coming on. Thanks for sharing. I know we could keep going, but we are up against the clock. So for those that are interested and they're like, man, I'd like to talk to Chris Brewer, I'd like to talk to Chris about my business, how can they get in touch with you?

Chris:

The easiest way is to go to our website, omg commerce.com. We've got a strategy session button there. Click that, fill out some brief information. My coworker, Caitlin will review that, will ask me maybe some additional questions. We'll send out a follow up, can fill out some additional foot stuff. It saves us about an hour of that if we feel there's a fit, if we don't feel there's a fit, I know Brett and I both know amazing other freelancers, agencies that we can refer to. So I'd say, Hey, don't hesitate to reach out if you think you're too small or what have you. I'm happy to spend even 15 minutes. I do a lot of little 15 minute calls just like, Hey, what's your challenge? Let's figure it out and let me point you in this direction or this course you could buy or this person you could hire. But that's how you can reach is just that free strategy session on our site. And I'd be happy to set up either a short call or if it's more appropriate, a more in depth kind of exploratory conversation.

Brett:

And I've been on a lot of those calls with you, Chris, over the years and very helpful, very insightful. People leave those calls feeling good about themselves and good about their business and they feel like they've gotten some good direction

Chris:

Pitch. We have no pitch on the

Brett:

First call. And so if you're looking at Google ads, help you get performance max questions, YouTube questions, you want to grow your email and SMS marketing or anything related to Amazon, reach out. We'd love to chat with you. And just out of a quote a minute ago that we'll kind of, we'll end this on getting outside perspectives, getting outside help, not a sign of weakness, sign of wisdom. And I really like that. So Chris, any final words or recommendations or things you want to point out before we sign off?

Chris:

No, I would just say do your research, do your homework. Put as much effort into hiring those that work from an outside perspective in your business as you do in hiring your own team members. That would be my final thing is I don't know if omg, I think we got six rounds. I think it's like five or six rounds before someone can actually start working for us.

Brett:

Yeah, several. It's at least at least four.

Chris:

And so don't hire your first freelancer because of recommendation or an agency. Really do your homework and it things will turn out a lot better for you.

Brett:

Love it. Chris, thank you so much. It's been another good one. And we will make round whatever the next one is. Hey, much shorter. That's

Chris:

Fine than fine. I'll, I'll hear from you in a couple years. Thank you for so much

Brett:

For the opportu opportunity. Okay, thanks Chris. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We could not do this show or Lisa wouldn't be fun to do this show without you, so we'd love your feedback. What would you like to hear more of on the show? If you have any guest recommendations or burning questions, fire them our way. I am active on Twitter at Brett Curry, active on LinkedIn, the Brett Curry, and hey, I'm just starting on TikTok, so check it out, see what you think there. Would love to connect with you on the socials until, and with that, until next time. Thank you for listening.

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Jeremy Horowitz is one of my favorite follows on LinkedIn. 

He recently dropped some brilliant (and terrifying) posts about the economy, the impending debt crisis, and what DTC brands should focus on now.

Jeremy and I go way back. In fact, this is our 4th podcast together over the years (he used to host a show too). Jeremy has been in the DTC SaaS space for years, having previously managed marketing for a large DTC brand. Jeremy is now the Sr. Partner Manager at Gorgias, and he and his team run the DTCX events, which have become some of my favorites to speak at and attend. 

Here's a look at what we cover. Some of it's heavy, but it also speaks to the amount of opportunity on the horizon: 

• What keeps Jeremy up at night? A potential consumer debt crisis? More at this link.
• 64% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Those making over $100k per year are in the same boat.
• What you can learn from Liquid Death. 
• Understanding how and where your customers want to buy.
• Avoiding the discount doom loop.
• Getting your inventory as close to "just-in-time" as possible.
• A different way to look at your marketing budget and performance. 

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• U.S. Personal Savings Rate Chart
• Jeremy Horowitz (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (LinkedIn)
• Brett Curry (Twitter)

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Transcript:

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Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce. And today we are going to talk big picture. We're going to provide some information that I think will be helpful, maybe a little bit scary as well, but I think overall positive. So we're going to be talking about state of the economy, state of the eCommerce, and what you should be doing right now and for the rest of the year to ensure success and growth for your D2C brand. I've got the man, the myth, the legend Jeremy Horowitz on the podcast today. And Jeremy is a guy that I've known for a long time now. He used to run a podcast. I was on that podcast and he was on this podcast ages ago as well, but now he's a senior partner marketing manager at Gorgias. Gorgias is a much beloved partner of OMG Commerce. And we'll talk more about Gorgias as we go. But Jeremy, I've, I've recently discovered is an amazing follow on LinkedIn. He's writing some really thought provoking items and so as I was reading his stuff I was like, Jeremy, you got to get on the podcast and talk about this stuff. And so here he is. So Jeremy, welcome to the show man. How you doing? And thanks for taking the time.

Jeremy:

Thank you. Thank you. I am doing awesome. I think it's our fourth podcast we've done over the years, so we're excited to dive that in. I have no idea, I'm going to live up to that intro, so I hope I can really deliver on all the key points. But yeah, I'm really excited to dive in. It really just came out of at Gorgias, we were analyzing data across 11,000 merchants past couple years. I've just been scratching my head of like everybody's saying all these crazy things and shouldn't be happening looking at a bunch of brands that I work with, both through Gorgias and personally, it was like, is this actually happening? And most of the time it's almost never matching up. So I just started studying a lot of the data across all of our merchants and then I started studying the public filings of your and Meadows just to see what's going on.

Cause essentially when you aggregate all e-commerce up into hundreds of thousands, millions of brands we're essentially the digital economy we that's reflected in those earnings. And so I've just been trying to try to just read the TVs and figure out are we in a recession? Are we not in a recession? How bad is inflation? How good is inflation? How has that impacted, where is e-commerce on its growth trend? And I'm sure we'll dive into all of those things. But yeah, I'm basically just like everybody else, just trying to just combine as many and try and get as many points as possible to figure out what is actually going and what can we tactically do to just keep moving through all these just unprecedented times that candidly have been enough ready for some from normal times and some non unprecedented times for a couple years.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so true. And I love the way you unpack that. And then that's exactly what we're going to dive into on this show, making sense of some of the broader macroeconomic issues that are taking place. And just a quick caveat, I'm not an economist. Jeremy's not an economist, but Jeremy's a really smart dude. And so we're going to be diving into this because we want to get a pretty good picture of what's actually happening, where are things headed so that we know what to do and we know how to grow our business, we know how to keep pushing forward and take care of our teams and our clients and our customers and all of those things. So yeah, because I pay attention to the news a lot as well, and we're talking about this before we record. Sometimes I hear things like, Hey, something worse than a depression is on the way.

And I'm like, oh no, that sounds terrible. And then I listen, I read something else and they're like, it's going to be a soft landing. Nothing to see here, nothing to worry about. Economy is up until the right, everything is great. Inflation is not bad, don't worry about it. We're in a recession, we're not in a recession. Just all this stuff. And to your point as well, we've had unprecedented year after unprecedented year, right? Pandemic, totally unprecedented. Then we had supply chain issues caused by the pandemic and now inflation, it's just one year after another. It's stuff we haven't dealt with before. So yeah, I would take some normalcy if you would dial that up, Jeremy. I would totally take that.

Jeremy:

What does that even mean anymore? That's a good point.

Brett:

That's a good point. We wouldn't know what to do with ourselves if things were normal, but here we are and no sense in wishing for something other than what is right, let's just get after it and try to make things work as best as we can. But you had a recent post, and this was the post that really triggered me to say, okay, Jeremy, I got to get on the podcast. It was what is keeping me awake at night right now? And I'm a really positive person, by the way. I can always see the positive things, but I'm also a realist and I want to look at the hard stuff too. So unpack that a little bit. Jeremy, what is keeping you up at night right now?

Jeremy:

So this was a chart that was done. It was a research firm and a private equity company paired together to look at from basically late 2019 to release this in q4. So it was basically through q3, Q4 of 2022, how much consumer credit card debt was the average US consumer taking out and what was their savings rate as a percentage of their income. And I'll share this in, and I can send this so we can throw this in the show notes, but yeah, I'll

Brett:

Link your to your, it's basically a post or whatever. I'll link to that in the show notes. But yeah, there there's this graph that shows savings rate versus credit card debt. Yeah, but you're good.

Jeremy:

And so as you soon go, we go into the lockdowns and early part of 2020, saving rates go through the roof. So the normal average float somewhere around five to 7% during the covid lockdowns, they go spike around 30, 33% in 2020. And that kind of, depending on where you see stimulus, it also goes into a little bit of 2021. And that makes crazy high rate probably, well, I don't know, you can ever have too high of a savings rate, but it just in way past the average. And then you see the amount in hundreds of millions of dollars of credit card debt just plummet from about 850 to 750. And so right from a traditional finance, personal finance, that's great things to see. People are paying down their credit card debt really actively managing their finances and then saving a lot of money. So they have good cash reserves.

So that for us in the consumer economy, they're in a good place to spend. They've got savings that they can tap into, they've got credit card debt that they can tap into. Then the really thing that what keeps me up at night is as you see in 2021, and then what really flexes into 2022 is essentially just a hard reversal of those two graphs and just, you see it's skyrocket in either direction. So by the end of 2022, you see that the personal savings rate had basically it fell back down to somewhat normal levels and that five to 10% and then plummeted down to 3%. And then you just see the credit card rate, the amount of the credit card volume skyrocket from that seven 50 area to north of 950 million, no, nine 50 billion, 909, a big number, a really way too big number that you can't wrap your mind around.

I think it's 9 billion, but that sounds insane to me. So I'm going to say nine 50 million and then we can fact check me afterwards, but it just essentially goes skyrockets. And it was pre pandemic, it was about 850, so a meaningful step up north of 10, 15%. And so what really keeps me up at night is it billion, right? It's 50. So nine 50 billion, really, really bigger than the GDP of probably a lot of other economies in the world. And so right, credit card debt isn't bad, savings should be good, but there's everybody's decision on what they should be doing. But really what more concerns me is knowing that I don't know about everybody else, but every credit card on their mother has offered me a credit card in the past three years. And if I had actually taken all of them out, I think my credit limit would've been something like three x my actual income, which is just bubbly. That's just scary. Those are not good. And just knowing that not all consumers are that disciplined, my guess is reading the middle ground of that data that people are overextended. And so some other data point has really come out that 64% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck.

When you just think about that means over half of every consumer that you could possibly touch is literally on paycheck to paycheck to pay for everything that they're working on. And then the second piece of that that really is like, oh boy is a group, there's a sliver segment of that that makes six figures a year. They're making over a hundred thousand dollars in gross income on an annual basis and still live paycheck to paycheck. And so what really concerns me is when we take a step back, lockdowns tons of stimulus and inflation, and I don't want to spend too much time on monetary theory, but when the government pumps even more money than what people are already making and the only place that they can pump

Brett:

Amounts of money that have never been pumped into the system before.

Jeremy:

So

Brett:

Yeah, it never happened before to that level.

Jeremy:

Sure, right. Unprecedented scale, unprecedented frequency. Cause it happened multiple times and at those points in time, all consumers could really push at a meaningful volume into maybe their homes was consumer goods. So we had this artificial one-time massive growth that's just really, really jacked up. Then on this back of that, consumers are like, well, I don't really want to change my spending habits now, and I actually, and now I want to go and travel and do all these other things that are going to require me to spend money. And unless something else happens and maybe there's plenty more brilliant people out there than me, maybe there's some simple solve to this that we just haven't figured out yet. But at a certain point this has to stop. People have to either go back to savings or default on their credit card or stop spending money.

I mean, maybe I'm blatantly missing something, but to me it's like it has to be one of those three camps. And so just knowing that having your financial capital tied up in inventory is the kiss of death for any e-commerce or retail business. To me, this is, I think I'm really focusing on this year and every brand that I taught you and advise, it's like how are you really, really optimizing your inventory? How are you being really, really thoughtful about your timelines to inventory when you're placing pos, how much inventory you're carrying? Because at a previous company, and this is a super extreme just to prove a point, but when I was audacity, be calculated to weeks of term, which is essentially how many weeks will it take you based on your current sales velocity to completely sell out? Some brands we were seeing had hundreds of weeks, thousands of weeks of inventory.

And that faces a reaction I need of knowing that all of these factors are at play. You just have to be so nimble in these times. And I know that that's for every operator out there. I'm sure you all just turn off the podcast and hate me because it's the past two years from the supply chain have been a nightmare and everybody's been telling me to load up on inventory and get ahead of this. Exactly. But to me, this is where we're in a little bit of a pickle on our side of the just economy and sphere of yes, the proper thing to do was to load up on inventory, but now you might get stuck with too much if your consumer demand falls off. And so I think the one piece of helpful advice, and I hope what everybody takes away from this is really start studying your customer's purchasing behavior.

And I'm going to misuse in an economic term, but I like the way it sounds of really start to understand your consumer demand curve. So if I'm to study economics, I know it's the price and quantity, but really understand what's, how often do people buy, how much do they spend when they buy? And are my customers the type of customers that literally wait for a paycheck to afford my product or do they need to put it on buy now and pay later? All of those components. And I know you can probably buy some third party data to understand more of the financial habits of your customers, but I think that's going to be really, really important because the key has always been to tie your inventory buying to that as much as possible. And I don't think it's a skill a lot of people developed as you could just blow out sales recently, but it's kind of a little bit more of, I don't kind of the old days when we used to really have to manage merchandising and the e-com manager side of the store, but I feel like that's really going to be the key for everybody this year.

Brett:

Yeah, I'm so glad you pointed that out. And I want to just k kind of key in on a couple of things. One, I think this all does go back to really understanding the consumer, understanding what they're experiencing right now and how that might predicting or thinking how that might impact behavior going forward. But knowing that 64% of consumers live paycheck to paycheck and it's not the lower income folks only, it's people that are making over six figures. So even if you feel like you're reaching a higher income earner, probably most of them are living paycheck to paycheck as well. So just knowing any little blip, if we start to see unemployment rates really go up, that could cause demand to shift dramatically. Right now we've got all these weird things happening, but unemployment is really low. Everybody's working, a lot of people are working.

So cash is still flowing, but a lot of it is credit based and saving rates are going down to your point and that you can look at the graph for yourself to see how scary it is. But yeah, and now this is a complete, those things inverted, the savings rate and the credit card spending those inverted recently. So did your approach to inventory that got flipped upside down too, right? Because a couple years ago was all about just get in whatever we can get in because we'll sell it. And now you got to think about it. And so one of the things we did, and I actually wrote this article at the beginning of the pandemic, it was about understanding consumer behavior in a downturn because if you remember, this is actually hard to turn back the clock and remember, but March and April of 2020 looked like things were going to be a disaster.

Those were the first losing months that OMG commerce ever had where we didn't plan on it. There was other CapEx times and whatnot. We'd spent a lot of money what we meant to. And so we lost money for that month. It was the first two months we ever lost money. But then we're like, oh wait a minute. Yeah, everybody's stuck at home. They can't spend money on anything else other than stuff online. And then things exploded. But I wrote this article on how are consumers going to respond to a recession? And it's interesting, you kind of got these different buckets and we got this pulled up. So we kind of talk about it. There's some people that just slam on the brakes, bad stuff happens, they slam on the brakes. There are other people that are like, they're pained, but they're patient so they're feeling the pain, but they don't want to really give up what they're doing.

You get the comfortably well off folks and then you've got the people that are kind of live for today that are like, Hey, caution the wind, whatever, we'll just keep spending money. I think to your point, there's a lot of people that are live, live for today or where they're feeling comfortably well off where they start those spending habits and they don't want to adjust them. They start those spending habits and just because inflation's there, they're not spending less, they're going on trips, they're doing some of those things. So I think just understanding that it doesn't take a lot to shift things off a cliff, so to speak, in terms of demand and being ready for that. So time is back to inventory. I think that's a really important piece. What are you recommending to merchants now? How should they be thinking about inventory? How many weeks worth of sell through? What are some practical tips you you'd give there?

Jeremy:

Yeah, so I would say that just in time inventory should be taken to probably as close as you can take it to the extreme. And I know it's very different for every business because you have your PO timelines, you have your sell through and wholesale retail,

Brett:

Running out of inventory is bad too. Really. We manage brands on Amazon and you know, run out inventory on Amazon and you got to start some of your flywheel over again. So running out is bad too. But yeah, close to just in time is probably a really good idea.

Jeremy:

And I think, right, cause you really have to thread the needle. You can't go too far in either direction, but I think you really have to lean more towards is this sellout existentially bad for our business and start more on that side. But I think it's really more of just speed. If I was running a brand, I would probably be checking myself through on my best products every day. And then I'd probably be checking myself through my products once a week, if not multiple times a week. Just because assuming that you have the right terms with your manufacturers, I probably would be placing pos more frequently. I know that's not as cost effective and everybody's going to like, well, you'd be more profitable and you're telling me to do something less profitable. But I think this is actually where you need to push your margins on every other part of your business so you can afford to spend a little bit more here just to give yourself the runway.

Because what we never talk about, and I know people are probably on two thousands to say cash conversion cycle, but really how long does it take me to put dollars out of my business? How long does it take me to bring dollars back in And inventory, especially if you're shipping from overseas, you're automatically on probably a month to two month timeframe as just the fastest baseline. And so really being intelligent about that. I think the other piece is just if you like more of a tactical thing. One of the best things we did when I was at a brand back at my time at Lumi is every week I'd standing e with my ops team and our head of supply chain and logistics. And I would literally go through our inventory and it would mostly be prioritized by our best sellers, but I would let them know, hey, these are the changes we're making to our paid media budget.

These are the things that are going on promo, these are the things that we're going to feature on the site and email blah blah, blah blah blah. And then they would start adjusting. And if you don't have that already add, it's the calendar this week. If it's something you're already doing maybe once a month, I'd probably pull that into biweekly weekly. Really have that down. It's really a muscle that you have to learn. There's no perfect science. There's tons of tools that will tell you that they have this perfect algorithm and they help but consumer, consumer demands consumer demand. And so you really just have to get really dialed in there so that when you do have the shakes and when do things do change, you can really adjust as quickly as possible. And I mean, Lululemon is already running away. We made too much sale.

And I think it's actually a brilliant tactic of they're just ripping the bandaid off. It's going to be painful. People are talking about it a lot. What concerns me about what they're doing is they're running it at such a scale that they might actually get into a discount death spiral where they might pull in so much consumer demand cause they're making such a big deal out of it that then they're not going to hit their sales targets in Q2 34. So that actually there's ways that you have to be very careful about it, but I think we're just going to see a lot more people less aggressively discount top of funnel and less disagree acquisition and more strategically discount. How do we move stuff? How do we clean stuff out? And I actually drew Sn one of our close friends really had a meaningful posts about this on Twitter or about the past week of we really shouldn't be discounting the super loyal people that are with you and are going to buy. And there's very strategic points at when to introduce those promos, how to introduce those promos. And you can do it fairly automated now. And I think we're just going to see way more adoption of that with the couple of how oil companies have their burnoff or we're pump, we're pumping too much oil so we burn oil off so we don't ruin everything. I think we're going to see more of those clearance sale type of just move out of the system when need be. That's

Brett:

A good analogy. A little oil burnoff. You got to get rid of some of that inventory and you got to rip the bandaid off and the Lululemon, the example. And I do want to talk about some other DDC brands that are doing really well right now. Cause I think we've learned great from examples. But let's talk about Lemon really quickly. Obviously phenomenal brand, they crushed it during the pandemic. Everybody's wearing yoga pants, staying at home and whatnot. But talk a little bit about that. So now they're discounting everything. What are your thoughts on that discount death loop and any more thoughts about Lululemon, but then also specifically how do we avoid that discount death loop?

Jeremy:

Yeah, so plenty of thoughts on Lululemon, but the good sound bite is actually Ezra Firestone has, I think one of the most intelligent promotion cadences where he's just like, I really don't discount much on the top of funnel and every six, eight weeks I'm running a shallow discount to just get people over the line and clear out some inventory. And so without knowing anybody's business or the intimate inner workings, I would just generally, I would say that that's a pretty good philosophy to have. Obviously tons of nuances and cadences to everybody's business as far as Lululemon, the, it's kind of like a contagion outbreak I think is what I'm concerned by is if this is small scale and it's a small percentage of their inventory specifics products, that classic fashion model where stuff goes out of season and we cut

Brett:

Last year's stuff, buying a sweater and it's June and it, it's fine. That doesn't hurt the brand. You're just, you're getting rid of stuff.

Jeremy:

Right? Exactly. Versus hey, we just launched a bunch of new stuff, we're putting a bunch out, end of stuff's only six months old and we still think we have too much. The problem is that although I know that everybody loves to think that you're going to promote a sale and a ton of new customers are going to come in and buy, at least in my experience, it's your loyal customers and the people who are going to come back and buy anyway who just run through it and take as much inventory as possible, which is great for that short term cash injection. The problem is that if you promote it too heavily to them, you're removing your buyers in three to six to 12 months. And so yes, it solves your short term problem and survival. You can only play in the game if you survive.

It's like, I want to be very practical here, but then when you're like, oh, we produce all this inventory and we're trying to hit our sales numbers for q2, Q3 leading up into holiday, yeah, you're probably not, you're probably going to have a lot softer sales then. And you're back to the same problem where we've produced too much, we don't have enough new customers to offload all of this inventory and we've got to go back to the same customers and it just compounds over and over and over again versus, I know nobody really likes to do this, but the strategy we've run at a couple brands is you move it in a retailer that's one of those offloading retailers, and I know that sounds bad and we need better branding for it. We should call 'em something better than liquidation partners, but move it in a channel where it is maybe a net new introduction. I personally, when I was in college and had that machining, I shot to TJ Max and we're introduced to products, it's super cheap prices and five, 10 years later I ended up buying them. But it was a way to raise it's cash out, get the cash back in your business.

Brett:

And that's only cheapen the brand. We all expect to go to Marshalls or T or TJ Max or Ross, whatever, and there's just a little one off things here and there and it doesn't hurt the brand. We're knowing we're getting it at a discount for a particular reason. And yet maybe you do attract a net new customer, which is kind of interesting. And they kind of key in on the point you're just making. It doesn't take very many of those cycles of discounting deeply and hitting your existing customers for them to be fully trained to just wait for the discount like couple cycles. And I, why would I ever pay full price for your goods at that point? And so then it's really hard to back to back away from that drug of discounting

Jeremy:

Because that tough piece, what we were talking about earlier, cash in cash out, now you're having last cash in for the same cash out from your inventory, you're a advised and it just becomes a gnarly cycle where it's very hard to get out of once you're in that kind of vicious cycle downward.

Brett:

Cool. Makes sense. Totally makes sense. Well, who else are you following? Who are some of the brands that you feel like are just crushing? And I know you may not have insights into their cash conversion cycle or how they're managing inventory, but from what you can see, what D two C brands are just crushing it right now?

Jeremy:

So from the brands that they've publicly disclosed or there's some information there, I think the first one always comes to mind is Liquid Death. We had a great time with them at Retain last Q4 last year, and it's just such an interesting brand, but they really have taken off, wait a minute, were they at Retain? Oh yeah, they spoke the day that you weren't there. They spoke the next day.

Brett:

Oh my gosh. Gosh. Yeah. So I spoke so LA Event last year. I had a blast. I loved it. I had no idea they were there. I mean, I couldn't have shifted my schedule, I couldn't have made it, but I'm so, so bummed now that I missed those guys.

Jeremy:

Yeah, I'll send you the recording of who meets speech, their SAP at retail. But I think what they've done really, really well is, and I, the reason I like them is I think it's a good representation of the opportunity here of if you think we're in no session, if you think that tough times are coming, it makes business so much more difficult. But the winners not only win then they dominate the next decade. Yes, multi-decade of their category industry, the market in general. And I think that they're already in that mode and they're just doubling, tripling down and it doesn't seem like they're slowing down at all. So if anyone doesn't know what Liquid Death is, I don't just don't know if you're under a rocker or something, but they basically sell

Brett:

Jeremy really quickly cause I don't want to lose this thought. And I think it's important right here because we started a little doomsday with a couple things. But here, here's the beauty of this conversation of what we're doing. If you make the right decisions now and get your inventory in a good spot and you get your marketing dialed in which Liquid Death does and we're going to talk about in a second, then you could be successful now. And then if things do go south, you are primed to win. And I've read a more millionaires are created during a recession than any other time. And even during the Great Depression, tons of millionaires were created. So there's opportunity there, you just got to be ready for it. So I love that mindset. We're making the right decisions now to give us the best chance of success now and for whatever may be ahead back to Liquid Death for those that are living under a rock, what is it?

Jeremy:

Yeah, and just to pile onto that point, cause I think it's really important of it also, if you just survive to be the number two, three player in your space, that's also a great business to run. You don't have to be number one if you're in the right market, it could be millions, tens, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars even in the number 2, 3, 4 slot. There will be 17 providers in a space anymore. But survival also is a big win here. But yes, yes. Liquid death, the super tltr is super fresh water in a metal can and everything is branded as super punk metal, hardcore, I don't call it aggressive advertising, but it's insane where one of their stunts was like you could sign your soul away to the company or they infused Tony Hawk's blood into skateboards and all their ads are just these really crazy far out there.

But fun. Cool. Well I guess it's very subjective. People either hate them, they're playing polarizing very well, hate it, but they're just absolutely blown up. They launched on D two C very quickly moved into Amazon now they have a massive hotel wholesale expansion, they're in Whole Foods, they're in a ton of different providers all over the country. And I think while everybody else that I know who's been expanding has been having this channel debate and it's really tough time of do I spend here, do I spend there? How do I just budget my marketing spend? And this is their speech from the conference last year is we just invest in stuff that we like and if it makes us laugh and we think it's going to be a good time, we just put a bunch of money behind it. And obviously they have all the data in the back end on society, know what to invest in.

But they're thinking about it of just how do we grow the overall sales? How do we grow the overall brand? And it's just very funny of Omnichannel was the huge thing a decade ago, then it became all of you to see the past five years. Now everybody's back to omnichannel. And it's like we get so wrapped up in all of our and so guilty of this, all the specifics, your job is just to get your customers to buy your product in any channel possible from anywhere possible and not from your competitor. And I think they're one of the best examples of they hit most of those typical growth paths of Scaled Up, got into Amazon, really, really scaled up. And then their CPG brand so aggressively went into Burry in wholesale. So I think they're a big one. I think Dr. Qua is another big one. You

Brett:

Actually came on Liquid Death really, really quickly. Newer to Liquid Death. I did not know their story until, I don't know less than a year ago for sure. But one of the things, I can't remember if you wrote about this or if I read about it somewhere else, but they did a taste test, but it was a

Jeremy:

A

Brett:

Taser taste test. And I love this angle. They took some really negative reviews online. So some people were saying it was literally the worst water they'd ever tasted. Way overpriced. People were saying it was literally the worst. And so if I remember right, liquid Death challenged these folks to a taser taste test where they gave liquid death plus other brands and if they could pick out Liquid Death as the worst in that bunch, then they would win something. But if they didn't

Jeremy:

A thousand dollars,

Brett:

Yeah, a thousand bucks, they would get tasered, right or tased and they got tad, which was pretty awesome and little risky, I think most marketing departments and most legal departments with Brown on a taser taste test but fits their brand. And I love that they did that,

Jeremy:

A ski mountain in a ski resort in Utah did that also. And it was a incredibly successful iPhone, but they took a one star review, put it on top of their mountain, all the things, if you have a great product, it's actually playing into the negative can work on a very tactical level.

Brett:

Yes, because it shows that you're confident, it shows that you're really confident in your brand and you can't do that if you've got a mediocre brand obviously. But yeah, that's a super fun, super fun tactic. So liquid death, sorry, let's talk squash. And I love Dr. Squash. I'm connected through their creative agency, a little bit raindrop, but yeah, love those guys.

Jeremy:

Yeah, another brand doing a lot of creative work. So for anybody who isn't familiar, it's all natural men's products of soaps, deodorants, bunch of other personal care products like that same model launch on ddc, got into marketplaces and now they're really, really ramping and scaling through Walmart and all those other channels. And I think what they've done really brilliantly is they just really leverage tech well and they're not leveraging tech just to have everything in their tech stack. And I've been guilty of that, of playing with all the new tools but really dialing in their data so that I was talking with their head of E-com there we're like they are testing and constantly know when to send people to their e-com store versus a partner or versus another website. And really dialing in that customer buying behavior because I think that that's, especially if you come out of that DDC mindset or just the Amazon mindset when Amazon's a little bit different cause people will buy from Amazon no matter what.

But definitely a mistake I made when I was managing Amazon and DTC that were both seven eight figure channels was certain people are only going to buy from those other retailers or those other places no matter what. It's such a waste of time to get Amazon buyers to buy from your site or Amazon buyers to buy from wherever new store you're launching it in. And then the same respect they're going to just go back and buy. And I think really just knowing the consumer behavior by channel and then doubling down and using their marketing, using their site to amplify those things that isn't to say aren't driving a ton of revenue through their site and it's not a meaningful sales channel for them. But really leveraging all of those points and that is a little bit of an eight nine figure play that is, it's more expensive.

You need to have a team to facilitate all of that. But I think you can do it at the earlier stages also of your one channel. It just really goes back to so intimately knowing how your customers buy from you that when to pick which way to go. To me, I mean their numbers have just exploded. Disclaimer, they are a Gorgias customer, but the way they're just publicly seeing that company take off, I think that they're another one where they're going to go after the p and g Unilever in their space. They're really going to meaningfully scale up. And they've also running theme here have navigated the one channel. Yeah, add in retail wholesale. And you really need to balance that because caps are going to get too expensive once you hit those 30, 40, 50 million a year thresholds where you just need to balance these things out and you're probably starting to tap into audiences that are so big that you're selling to name your retailer here. Product like buyers and customers.

Brett:

A couple things that kind of key in on there. Love the Dr Swatch brand. A little bit connected there. Spoke at a YouTube ballet event in early 2020, so pre pandemic and some of the Doctor Squa guys attended that. Do you know the guys at Raindrop Creative? Jacque Spitzer?

Jeremy:

Yeah. So

Brett:

They created the original Doctor Qua add that went viral and it was YouTube out of the year and stuff. Funny now Jacque is a friend, we're connected but they, they'd taken a YouTube course I'd taught back in 2017

Jeremy:

18. That's so cool. That's so cool. Everything is so connected

Brett:

Connection, but love what Squa is doing and yeah, it is interesting how omnichannel is all the rage again when it wasn't for a while. But I think it ultimately just comes down to what you said, we're trying to remove friction and we just want customers to buy the way they want to buy. And we typically buy in patterns. Those that buy only on Amazon usually only buy on Amazon those. And it seems like with our family, we've got stuff we buy on Amazon and stuff we buy in store and then you rarely break out of that. And so yeah, I think just understanding how do our customers want to buy this and we've got to give them that option and it's becoming more and more clear to me. And I'm sure it is to you, pure D TOC is likely not the playbook that that's not the playbook typically for the success that most people want. You need to think about marketplace, you need to think about in-store distribution really. I don't think that we have any of our largest clients, those that are doing 50, a couple hundred million that are just pure d TOC at this point.

Jeremy:

And even all the companies that we idolized back in the day that this whole model was built off of all have retail almost totally abers, Warby, Casper, Yeti, Casper, well Casper's just over its own fucking now. But that is

Brett:

A good a point. That is a good point.

Jeremy:

Well all of them, they went to DC then they went retail. Most of 'em are selling on Amazon. Most of them are trying to either are in or are working on wholesale, they're all in the model where it's just like, okay, we just need to go back to selling a product and focusing on that. And DDC is a avenue and a channel. And so I do think kind of tying it back to what we started with, wholesale adds a level of complication. Cause you do remove that piece, you got to buy longer inventory times, you got to ship it to them and they've got us all through then they pay you back and all those components. But then just I think to me just double triple down on the same principles if you know have longer times really get as much data as quickly as possible, really dive in, really start to go a little bit looser.

I know especially those retailers, the fees and things of stockouts and not fulfilling their inventory is a little bit tougher to handle. So you always have to keep that in mind when you make those decisions. But you also just have to be mindful of maybe we shouldn't be selling in 25 retail partners, maybe we should be selling in 10 or 20 or those other numbers. And I think now it's just a great time to shake things up, what actually rattles and falls off the trees versus what stays strong and you can really meaningfully streamline your business. I know that probably feels painful after two years to streamline your business, but just I really keep moving and keep doubling down because the players that survive this are going to be able to pick up a lot of amazing opportunities between talent and share, potentially acquire other brands, launch new products, so many different components once all of this passes that yeah, it's probably going to be a rough 1224, who knows how long runs. But once you're on the other side of that, as soon as the fed drops rates, debt will become cheaper again. And then we're just back to growth mode. And so it's really just about making it through this period so that we can get back to the side where we can just really aggressively get after it.

Brett:

Love it man. Love it. So aside from really getting control of your inventory and doubling and tripling down on things that are working, and I do love the idea of yeah, you want to go but just focus on what the things that are moving the needle and that are really working and kind of drop some of the other things. So focus, even though you're diversifying, you're still focusing, what other practical advice should you give? What should DDC brands be doing going forward?

Jeremy:

Yeah, so someone who on the marketing side will love this one is stop worrying about your aimer acquisition costs. Stop ring's not the right word. Stop having that be your North Star. Look at MER and just what is from a financial, you are a cfo, how much do we spend on marketing advertising costs, how much do we sell period. And then just have an understanding of what your margins are for wherever you sell. So you can have your numbers match up, your marketing spend as a percentage of sales needs to make sense from a p and l perspective, but everybody's doing these super complicated things of DTC and channel modeling and Amazon. And then how do we impact that against this, that and the other. From every time I've dug into this and from every time we've analyzed the data, the more you can just blow out one marketing channel, the more every other marketing channel does well and sells more.

And it's nothing new. It's called the halo effect. It's been around probably for a hundred years, but really go back to that and I know it's really nice to have those immediate feedback loops and that kind of dopamine hit when you know that a channel crushes and it's like that immediate feel, but you are sacrificing something by not looking at the bigger picture. So that's definitely one thing. And I think the part two of that of why it's so important is because of all of this big economic picture and if it plays out the way that I think it advertisers will have to pull out their budget either voluntarily or involuntarily. And while that's a tough thing to realize and you never want to be that advertiser for everybody else who's there, CPMs go down, it becomes less competitive. Customers buy Yes, yes. And it's easier.

It's easier from a cost perspective and from an advert number of touches advertising perspective to get people to buy. And that's, to me, that's that magic unlock where you dominate because then you can spend more money. And it goes back to the kind of three or four years ago when we weren't going crazy trying to figure out how to get cack into a reasonable place. I'm not saying we'll ever go back to that specifically, that was a very magical moment in time, but I think it will get better and things will loosen up and then you can really more aggressively put your foot on the gas even if everything else isn't really great, just because that will be less competitive. And so I think that's why having that just ready to go moment, ready to go prep is so important because if you're looking at everything holistically and you see that crack and that opening, take it and it's going to be great and it's a tough thing and there's no way anybody's going to be right all of the time. But if you can and you're in that top one 10% of brands, you're just going to set yourself up for a special moment in the company's history.

Brett:

And actually I did a podcast with from Triple Whale and we talked about how you know, should stop dispensing over your ROAS and you are not your roaz. I think it was one of the lines that you use, which was pretty great. But obviously got to pay attention to RO as we do. We look at ACO on the Amazon side, we're we're looking at those numbers regularly, but those aren't the real numbers. The real numbers are your financial numbers that that's your real businesses, the financial metrics that are there. And if you can dig into some of the minutia, some of the complexities of your numbers to unlock decisions and understand a little bit more where you lean into and what you lean out of, that's great. But you can overdo it for sure. And I think this is one of those things too that a lot of people do, and I was just thought this analogy the other day.

My son, my oldest is 21 and he's selling solar systems door to door. So he, that's cool. He got a bit of my entrepreneurial bug and he doesn't want to have a normal job and he wants to make unlimited money and stuff, which is totally cool. And he's out there knocking on doors, which is awesome because it's really, really difficult. And I'm like, hey, if you can sell that, you can sell anything. Which is true, but they've got stutters and they've got closers and he actually has a little bit of both. But you can imagine someone that didn't know the business looking at it and saying, we're paying Sutters an awful lot of money, but the closers, closers are the ones bringing all the money in, so let's just pay the closers. And I think that's what we're tempted to do. People be like, let's just run bottom of funnel search and that's it, right?

And obviously you would never look at a direct sales organization and say, stop the Sutters. That's where the leads come from. But it's the same concept with marketing. It's just sometimes a little bit harder to see. You can see who's setting the appointments in a direct sales organization. You can't always see it in a D two C brand, but it's the same concept. You unplug that business dries up and your toast. So understanding how do we make the most of what we have? And maybe that's really strict marketing budgets and we're trying to get the most out of that budget as we can, but knowing that you can't just shift bottom of funnel or things will dry up before long and then wait for those CPMs to go down. Because that was one of the beautiful things about the early part of the pandemic. Viewership went up so people on YouTube skyrocketed on Facebook skyrocket and people pulled out of the auction. So it was like a heyday man for, we had had several brands scaling then with unprecedented CPMs for the time.

Jeremy:

Yeah, exactly. And I think the coolest thing, well honestly the coolest thing pandemic was awful. But I think the interesting lesson from that time period is that was a flash episode of what happened is all those brands that were ready just hit the gas while everybody kind of just like, what's going to happen? What's waiting? We're not sure where our finances are. And I'm sure today and over the past couple years they've been in a significantly better positioned because they were able to really take advantage of that moment.

Brett:

Yeah, totally. Awesome man. Well this has been super fun. I could talk for hours with you about these topics. We are running up against time a little bit though before we sign off though, tell us a little bit about Gorgias, for those that don't know, I mean Gorgias is such an awesome success story. You guys have exploded in recent years, but what is Gorgias and then what do you specifically do at Gorgias?

Jeremy:

Yeah, thank you. Always happy to talk about Gorgias. So Gorgias is the number one help desk in the e-commerce ecosystem really. And we're the number one most solid help desk on Shopify. And so basically any customer support interaction, any customer experience interaction with your customer, we're the technology that connects you. So commenting on social emails, SMS voice, all those different platforms, WhatsApp will have just launched that platform that your CS team uses to not only really drive efficient great moments, but now innovative brands like Dr. Squad, princess Poly, are actually driving revenue through us. So using us to essentially be kind of the closers for an e-commerce company to our analogy earlier where live chat people email in with questions and all those components, how do we answer them? How do we get them the right answer? And then how do we actually turn that potential problem question into a sales opportunity? Yeah, because

Brett:

Really every touchpoint with a customer, every interaction with a customer is an opportunity to grow that relationship and an opportunity to close another sale.

Jeremy:

Yeah, exactly. And maybe it's down the road, maybe you're investing for that retention play. But yeah, and so really having a great time there. I run partner marketing, so all things with all of our partners, like amazing partners like you and omg, we're doing events, we're doing, we're working with a lot of ambassadors and affiliates in this space as well as as all the other technology and agency providers where we're just looking for fun things to do to just help people figure out how to grow their store and navigate all the craziness that has gone on. And I'm sure we'll continue to go on over the next couple of years,

Brett:

No doubt. But you guys do an amazing job. One you put on great events, we've done some events together and just a lot of smart people at Gorgias Man, a lot of brilliant, brilliant people at Gorgias, most of our biggest, fastest growing clients are using Gorgias. And so we give it the full OMG stamp of approval for what that's worth. So yeah, man. Hey, I strongly recommend people follow you on the socials. Where are you most active? I see you on LinkedIn, but where are people or where should people follow you if they want more Jeremy Horowitz in their life?

Jeremy:

Yeah, so on LinkedIn I try to post one helpful thing every day. So Jeremy Horowitz, H o r o W I t Z, and then I've got everything else that I'm working on linked, like linked from there. So yeah, that would be the easiest place to find me.

Brett:

Sweet. That's awesome, man. All right, good stuff. Well, hey, hopefully people are prepared. They're, they're going to be mindful of what can happen, but they're also not fearful but inspired, right? Because that would be the messenger. Don't be afraid. Yes, be aware and be prepared and then you can crush it no matter what. No matter what happens. So any other asks, any other call outs, any other resources, anything else you want to mention before we sign off?

Jeremy:

Everybody have an amazing 2023. If there's anything can help with, let me know.

Brett:

Awesome. Thanks buddy. Appreciate the time.

Jeremy:

Thanks. Have a good,

Brett:

Awesome. And as always, thank you for tuning in. I would love to hear from you, what would you like to hear more of on the show, guest ideas if you have them. I'm open to that as well. And if you haven't done it, I would love that review on iTunes, helps other people find a show. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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