In this episode of the eCommerce Evolution Podcast, Eugenia Chen, founder of PandaLoon and CEO of Huxley Media Group, shares her secrets to creating viral content that can propel your brand to new heights. Discover the science behind crafting videos that captivate audiences, drive engagement, and boost your product's visibility across multiple platforms.
Key Takeaways:
- How PandaLoon drove 30 million organic views in just a week and 160 million organic views in the months that followed.
- Understanding the importance of emotional hooks and how to grab viewers' attention.
- Learning how to keep your audience engaged until the very end.
- Exploring the differences between popular platforms like TikTok, Instagram Reels, and YouTube Shorts, and how to optimize your content for each.
- Gaining insights into the power of organic content and how it can significantly impact your brand's success on platforms like Amazon.
- Discovering the benefits of appearing on Shark Tank and how to capitalize on the exposure to drive sales and establish credibility.
Tune in to hear Eugenia's incredible journey from math professor to successful entrepreneur, and learn how you can apply her proven strategies to create viral content that will skyrocket your brand's reach and engagement.
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Chapters:
(00:00) Introduction
(08:20) Eugenia’s Experience on Shark Tank
(14:17) The Science Behind Virality
(31:02) Which Platform Is Best?
(36:09) Using Organic Content For Ads
(38:19) Conclusion
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Show Notes:
- Eugenia Chen (LinkedIn)
- Huxley The Panda Puppy (Instagram)
- Huxley Media Group
- Pandaloon
- Shark Tank
- Daymond John (LinkedIn)
- Lion Latch
- Jacques Spitzer (LinkedIn)
- Sara Blakely
- Spanx
- Jesse Itzler
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Connect With Brett:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thebrettcurry/
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@omgcommerce
- Website: https://www.omgcommerce.com/
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Past guests on eCommerce Evolution include Ezra Firestone, Steve Chou, Drew Sanocki, Jacques Spitzer, Jeremy Horowitz, Ryan Moran, Sean Frank, Andrew Youderian, Ryan McKenzie, Joseph Wilkins, Cody Wittick, Miki Agrawal, Justin Brooke, Nish Samantray, Kurt Elster, John Parkes, Chris Mercer, Rabah Rahil, Bear Handlon, Trevor Crump, Frederick Vallaeys, Preston Rutherford, Anthony Mink, Bill D’Allessandro, Bryan Porter and more.
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Other episodes you might enjoy:
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Transcript:
Brett :
Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the e-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and today we're talking about the science of going viral. The best brands that I know today are thinking about and investing in organic content. And so my guest today is the CEO and founder of Pandaloon, which if you're a dog lover and you're on TikTok or Instagram, you've maybe seen some Pandaloon videos. These have for sure gone viral. So we're going to dig into that. And she also runs Huxley Media Group, and so really has a unique outlook on viral content and D two C and growth. She's been on Shark Tank, all kinds of fun stuff here, and so I'm delighted to welcome to the show, miss Eugenia Chen Eugenia, how it going?
Eugenia:
It's going great. It's fun to see you after Seller Summit.
Brett :
Yeah, I got to hang at Seller Summit with our friend Steve Chu and Tony, and what a great event, man. What an awesome event in Fort Lauderdale and heard your story there and thought, got to get you on the podcast. So for those that don't know or that haven't seen the videos, which most people probably have or a lot of people have, what is Panda Loon and what was the inspiration
Eugenia:
Behind this? So Panda Loon is a viral pet apparel brand. We were on Shark Tank, so it all started when my dog Huxley, who looks like a little panda in everyday life, he's always supervising. So he's off screen right here. I decide to,
Brett :
If he does get close, I'd love for Huxley to make an appearance on the pod for those that are watching the video. So entirely up to you, but probably more up to
Eugenia:
Huxley. Yes, I will. I'll let him know. So he already looks like a panda, so I thought I'll dress him up as a panda for Halloween, and I made a homemade panda costume that looked like a walking teddy bear walking on two legs. So if you've ever seen a little panda running around the internet, that's my little guy, Huxley the panda puppy. And it went crazy viral, had no following on Facebook at the time, but on Facebook it shot up to 30 million views in about a week. That's insane. And then insane,
Brett :
30 million views in
Eugenia:
A week. It's crazy. And then through a few different uploads and reposts, it has now reached over 160 million views on that first video.
Brett :
And that's across multiple platforms or that's just the
Eugenia:
Facebook platforms? With Instagram, it's platforms, but primarily Facebook and I think, yeah, a bit of TikTok, but mostly those two. Yeah.
Brett :
Yeah, that is absolutely mind boggling and wild. I mean, you could expect mean people love dogs and your dog is very cute, and Huxley may be in the corner being like, Hey, you can talk to my agent buddy before I get on this podcast. So I accept that. So you would expect it's going to do okay, but to go to 30 billion views that quickly. Insane. And now you said 160 million views at this point and counting.
Eugenia:
It was insane. I think it was a time where something that was visually intriguing and fun to watch was just that sweet spot for the internet.
Brett :
Yeah, yeah. So cool. So you made this costume yourself, put it on Huxley, he becomes an internet sensation, an absolute star. When did you think I should start selling these and I've got potentially a real business? Yeah,
Eugenia:
Pretty much right away. I was already an online seller. I was already an Amazon seller. I thought I was kind of bootstrapping my way towards creating my own product, but I hadn't quite landed on exactly what I wanted that to be yet. So I was actually a math professor in my previous life, but it wasn't working out that great, I guess at the time.
Brett :
So what type of math did you teach? And so was at the undergrad level,
Eugenia:
Graduate level? Definitely undergrad. I would say lower undergrad. So it was a lot of basic college algebra, some calculus, and a little bit of statistics.
Brett :
So college algebra, that's when you've got a lot of begrudging students that are like, I don't want to be here, but I have
Eugenia:
To be here. Precisely. Yes. So I had to, I guess encourage would be the word, or coddle a lot of students through their math experience. But it was nice in a way because I could see that people were empowered by that, that they didn't think they could do it, but if we made it actionable and they could overcome it. So that was cool. Well,
Brett :
And now this gives even greater credence to your formula for virality because you're a math professor, so your formula is absolute
Eugenia:
Whole up.
Brett :
Yeah, I should publish something. Awesome. For sure. So you were selling this from the get go, felt like it was going to be a business. What did the video do though? So as it starts climbing into the millions of views, what is this doing for sales online?
Eugenia:
So at the time, I didn't have it ready to sell to my regret. I wasn't expecting it to happen like that. So people started emailing my online store and just asking, where is this? Can you make it? What's the deal here? And I wasn't prepared, and I always feel a little bit scared to take anyone's money before I have a timeline ready. So I just took their emails and I said, I'll work on it, let me email you and I'll update you as soon as possible. So I hit the ground running. I went and found a local seamstress in San Diego at a sewing company who could make a pattern. So I could try to turn my little homemade version, which is not the best sewing, but just kind of encapsulated a very good illusion, a very precise fit and design. And she helped me turn that into a pattern so I could try to pursue manufacturing. The local sewing company actually didn't want the project because this furry fabric, apparently they would have to shut down the entire factory just to sew my project because it would fly everywhere. Whoa.
Brett :
Because the fur goes everywhere. So
Eugenia:
I had to figure out a company that was bigger because they would have the laser cutting machine and be able to handle that kind of thing. Got it. So that's when I started finding an overseas manufacturer that handles plush fabric and refine the prototype and put in my order for my first line of panda costumes. And I started taking pre-orders at that time, which at this point it was very out of sync from the viral video. So it wasn't the biggest pre-order launch by any means, but I just had faith that this was something that could go viral again and it was worth pursuing.
Brett :
It's amazing. So let's talk a little bit about, and we're going to get into the science behind virality because you made a really great point as we're prepping and getting ready to hit record, is that of course there's an element of luck and an element of timing for virality, and you can't fully predict, no one would guess that there's going to reach 160 million views, but that's not to say that there isn't a formula, and that's not to say that there aren't some steps you can take and some planning you can do to get some viral success. We're going to dive into that, but first I want to hear about Shark Tank. So did they reach out to you? Did you reach out to them? How did that
Eugenia:
Begin? I was just a regular person who stood in line. It was a big hotel east of LA and I stood in line at 4:00 AM with hundreds and hundreds of people, maybe a thousand or so, and I had my chance to give this 62nd pitch in front of a table of casting directors. And I just thought, okay, I'm going to go for it. I've been a fan of the show for a long time, why not? This sounds fun. I've had this moment and something that's visually interesting. So my dog, Huxley and I, we went up and we gave our pitch just like the show. And then it seemed to go well because everyone started looking over and the casting director asked to take a photo of Huxley in his panda loon. So that kicked it off. And by the next week, I had gotten a call and the ball started rolling towards Shark Tank.
Brett :
It's crazy. So what was that experience like? And I think the most important question that everybody wants to know is, did you get
Eugenia:
A deal? Yes. Spoiler alert, I got a deal. I got a deal with Damon John.
Brett :
Oh man, he's
Eugenia:
The best at, yeah, he's great. So he has equity in Panda loon. People always want to know what's he like to work with, and I'd say he is very down to earth. He follows my lead. He's never ever been demanding in any sort of direction. It's always been, what do you want to do? What can we do to help? Yeah, I'd say that as the show's progressed, I think it's hard for sharks to juggle a lot of companies. So you have to kind of pick what you want to focus on with your shark. The Shark Tank process was super fun. I know that some people have kind of a traumatic experience, but totally,
Brett :
I've heard the trauma
Eugenia:
Stories. I was very fortunate, I guess, that it was a fun edit and it was made to be a fun segment, and I had a great experience. It was a bit nerve wracking, and it was a lot of work leading up to it. That's the part that I had no idea that I was spending easily 20 hours a week doing show stuff leading up to filming. And then afterwards you have this secret where you can't tell anyone, but you need to prepare for 4 million people to hear about your product. So it's an interesting experience, but I am so grateful for it.
Brett :
And what was that like then once the show aired? What did that do to website traffic into sales? And then has the show aired multiple times since
Eugenia:
Then? Yeah, when the show aired, it was a little interesting. I was a little heartbroken, but I can't be too mad that I got to air, which is great. Not everyone gets to air after they film, but I aired in January, which is very much not my season. So it was a little bit like trying to sell Christmas trees in July
Brett :
One month earlier, and it would've been
Eugenia:
Insane. Insane. So the traffic had, I think it spiked 3000% compared to the previous time of the same month. So it was a huge spike, but I knew that I had to work really hard to keep momentum going until my peak season that fall. So it was a huge traffic boost. It wasn't the ideal time for conversion, but it was still a really nice lift. And the lift actually continued for pretty much most of the year because I guess the beautiful thing with Amazon is that they love that velocity and bestseller ranking. So that lifted quite a bit. And then your question about have I aired multiple times? Yes. So I got one what I would consider a big rerun where you get to air again on A, B, C, which is great. And then I've had a lot of CNBC reruns. Sometimes they're like every other month or sometimes every quarter or so. So it's
Brett :
Awesome. That's great. And a comment you just made, I want to dive in into this a little bit. A lot of people would, one lot of people wouldn't even try to get on the show you did and you were successful in it, but then if people get on the show, they're like, well, let's see what happens, right? It's going to be in front of a lot of eyeballs. Let's just see how the Shark Tank effect impacts my business. But you understood, and part of this was because it aired a little bit past your peak season, but you knew you're going to have to do some work to keep this momentum going and to keep the lift up. And so how did you leverage the Shark Tank appearance, and what kind of work did you do to make sure that you were able drive sales lift from that? Yeah,
Eugenia:
I definitely took the Shark Tank appearance credit as a resume item to wave around wherever I could as a small person selling something that is kind of silly. There were times before I could say, so before I could say I was on Shark Tank, that people would just kind of be like, oh, yeah, that's a really cute hobby that you must do out of your garage costume for your dog. Wow, that's fun. Yeah, your parents must be so proud you left teaching math for this. But as soon as I was on Shark Tank, they understood like, oh, okay,
Brett :
Instant validity, instant street cred. You're a real business at that
Eugenia:
Point. Totally. Yeah. So when it came to wholesale orders, it was no longer trying to prove myself. It was just like, oh, okay. Yeah, you're a real business there.
Brett :
Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. Okay, so let's dive in. Let's talk about some of the science behind virality. So when you're sitting down to create content and you want this to reach as broad of an audience or as big of an audience within your niche as possible, what are some of the things you're considering and what are you looking
Eugenia:
At? Yeah, I really think hard about the concept maybe too hard at times because the concept has to be interesting enough where you can craft a hook. And the hook is actually, I would say 50% of the work of being an exceptional content creator. And you must deal with this with ads too, where you have to make, yeah, absolutely. You want to make that scroll stopping. Otherwise, no one's going to see. It's probably going to cost some incredible multiple more to get eyeballs on it. And similarly with organic, if you don't make that first even split second interesting, and then really, hopefully you get about two seconds to really bring people in. So nowadays you have to do something that's visually intriguing often, and then also supplement it with audio and sometimes a text hook as well. So that would be the first step.
Brett :
So how are you thinking about the hook and the big idea? So you're saying two seconds, maybe three seconds, and thinking about panda loon, it would've been somewhat interesting if you started the scene with you sewing or creating something that'd be somewhat interesting, but I don't think that's what you did. And so how do you come up with that concept, that big idea, and then how do you translate that into a
Eugenia:
Powerful? Yeah. So when you have something that is surprising, looks like a stuffed animal that came to life for a long time, that was an effective hook in itself. But nowadays, most of the time when we're showing products, we want to tap into some kind of emotional hook because people can read that emotion much faster than they can read a sentence or hear a sentence. So oftentimes when I'm assisting companies in their strategy, the thing I try to focus them on is figuring out what emotions happen behind the problem of their situation that their product solves. So for example, if you are the classic garlic press example, so if the problem is that most garlic presses are really hard to squeeze, then you need to show the pain, the frustration, things like that at the top of the scene in order to hook people. When you're doing something like what I have, which is very cute and fun, that may seem actually easier in some ways, but I actually believe that being able to show the pain of a problem is much better because it's way more repeatable in your content.
Brett :
Yeah, I love that emotion without emotion. People don't pay attention. People don't watch movies. They don't watch shows without some emotion being evoked. People don't pay attention to ads or remember ads or take action from ads unless there's emotion. And you got to look at your organic content in the same way. And one thing I talk about a lot when we're screening ads or showing ads to people is what are the moments of the ad when you lean in? What are the moments in the ad when you can't take your eyes off of it? Or you find yourself gasping if it's a shock or laughing out loud if it's something funny. And when you find what that is, there's some kind of emotional trigger. Move that piece to the front. Exactly. Right. That is probably your hook, rather than that being buried, kind of use some old newspaper lingo. There's this idea of burying the lead. This is the most interesting part, but we're going to bury it in the middle of the video. No, no, no. Bring that to the front. That is almost certainly, definitely your hook. So thought,
Eugenia:
Yeah, that's actually something that I've been doing more and more in my editing, and I think that it works, especially for the way that content is starting to look in 2024, where people are interested in kind of the hyperreal videos where they follow along. But because of that, you have to find that moment, that shiny moment within your video. So I'll move it to the front. So for example, I made a video with my dog where we're photocopying his paw, so this was just an organic piece of content, but there's a point where he slips his paw out at the last second, and we laugh. And so moments where there's a pop of laughter or shock, a gasp, like you said, yeah, move that right to the front, that's going to grab people, and then you can show it more linearly as far as beginning to end. Yeah,
Brett :
Bring me into that emotional moment. Help me feel something. Now I'm interested in your story. So now tell me the linear story or something close to linear, but get my attention first. So this is really important, tapping into the right emotion. So for you, for panda loon, this is whimsy. This is just the awe factor, not the shock and awe, but the awe. This is cute, this is warm and fuzzy. But if you're coaching another business, how do you find, what emotion should we tap into?
Eugenia:
Yeah, often it's more about the problem, so it tends to be more negative. So negativity is a great hook. And so I think I encourage businesses to not be afraid of it. And I think that's something that a lot of businesses, especially ones that are run by elder millennials or up, that we're a little bit afraid sometimes to show things that are negative or a little bit, but those play so well on social. So I would say don't be afraid of the negative hook of showing that I feel horrible and run down. I need to take this supplement. That's where you're going to show the transformation between the two.
Brett :
Totally. And I think, yeah, people are reluctant to lean into the negative, but we're more motivated to fix a problem or to overcome pain than we are to just lean into pleasure. And in a previous life, I did quite a bit of marketing for chiropractors. That was just kind of a niche that I had. And I remember chiropractors would always say things like, I don't want to just talk about back pain. I want to talk about wellness. I want to talk about feeling great. And here's the deal. Nobody wakes up and says, I feel fantastic today, but I'd like to feel better. So I'm going to find a chiropractor. I want to go peak wellness here. Let's go reach out to a chiropractor. That doesn't happen. Somebody wakes up their back is killing them, they can't sit, they can't think they can't do anything, and they're like, I got to find a chiropractor. Now, once someone visits the chiropractor, then they can talk them into a wellness plan and kind of go from there. But it's the pain that gets someone to take action. And so I think that applies though to a lot of products where we're motivated to fix things.
Eugenia:
Totally. And that reminds me of something I'm constantly telling brands is that people aren't thinking about you. They don't wake up and think, oh, I wonder my chiropractor is doing, especially in this TikTok atmosphere, which has then bled over to the way that we scroll through Instagram reels, or we scroll through YouTube shorts, people are scrolling through and they just saw a video about someone's pathological liar, husband. They saw some cats falling off of things, and then they see you. So we're far from top of mind, and in order to get our message heard, we really have to grab them like that.
Brett :
Yep, yep. So good. So we're thinking about emotion, we're thinking about a concept. We're hooking people. What's kind of next in the process?
Eugenia:
So the structure of a viral video, it starts with those things, and then we need people to watch to the end. And I think this has a lot of overlap with some ad metrics too, of we want that retention, we want that watch time to be as high as possible because that will signal to the platform and the algorithm that this is a video worth pushing out to more people organically. So in order to get people to watch to the end, we're going to be working our way towards a reveal. So something that happens at the end, whether it's just the resolution or maybe it's a surprise or a twist or a result. So all along the way, we want to construct it the middle to be something that builds suspense or is gradually working your way towards that ending.
Brett :
Got it. So you've got the reveal in the beginning, kind of the hook. Then you're teasing something like, Hey, stick with me, I'm going to show you this thing. And then you're building to that so that someone sticks around. What does that look like? Or do you have an example from a Pando video from
Eugenia:
Another video created? Actually, one video that I show sometimes when I am trying to get this point across is my friend's product Lion Latch. So it's a little jewelry case holder that has a carabiner that clamps it in place so it can't unscrew and fall out. So the problem is that my friend invented this because she broke her wedding ring. She was catching a softball and it broke and diamond fell out. So there's emotion, there's stakes behind this. So she shows that broken wedding ring at the beginning and it captures you, and then she's showing her product getting filled with jewelry. So there's a little bit of visual suspense where you see this little pile of rings and she's putting them into the jewelry case. So we're waiting for this process to hit completion. Yeah,
Brett :
What is this? Show me. What am I watching here? This is interesting, but what am I
Eugenia:
Watching? Yeah, so she gets all the jewelry in there, she puts the top on, and then she clamps it closed, and she shows how it locks and it's not able to come apart. So we've waited to see that reveal of what is this? How does this work? And then we get that final picture at the end of how it's going to protect the jewelry.
Brett :
Very cool. Love that. Okay, so we're concept, we're hooking, we got the emotion there, some kind of big reveal in the beginning. That's the hook. Then we're leading someone to something. We want them to watch the whole thing. And I will, just as a side note, you're 100% right. This does tie into ad metrics as well, because what platforms want is they want people to engage on the platform. They don't want to serve ads that people hate. They want to serve ads that people love. And we've seen this, we've got a pretty large outdoor brand right now, and we're doing a YouTube push to try to drive in-store sales. And they've had some videos, and these are fantastic videos, and we got great structure in our campaigns, but they're getting 60 plus percent view rates on some of these videos, which is just insane. Typical view rates are 20% or something. But if you can do that, if you can really drive up those view rates in the beginning, and then also your completion rates, platforms want to show those ads, you get a lower CPM, you get more exposure and it just all works. So totally ties into ads as well. What's kind of next in the viral process?
Eugenia:
Sorry, I think my internet just lagged.
Brett :
Oh, no worries.
Eugenia:
Could you repeat what you said just so I kind of get the gist of it?
Brett :
Yeah, yeah, sure. And so yeah, I just kind of talked about ads and how it ties into it. View rate gets people to watch longer, the platforms want to show it anyway, so I just tied that back to, Hey, what is next then in crafting this viral
Eugenia:
Content? Okay. Exactly. So all that tends to help us with retention or watch time. So then what are the other metrics that signal to an algorithm or a social media platform that this is a video that people really want to see? So the next strongest signal that I see or shares and saves, because if someone cares enough to say, Hey, hey Brett, I want you to see this video. That usually means that it's extra engaging, extra interesting. So I look for shares and saves because I notice a very strong correlation between the percentage of shares and saves as views. So if I see a 1% ratio of shares and saves or more, if it's just a little bit more, then I can usually predict that this video will do quite well. And when I look at viral videos, they tend to have a higher than average share and save ratio.
Brett :
So likes and hearts, that's one thing, but that's the baseline, that's the minimum level of, I like your content. This is kind of cute, but if I'm sharing it with a friend or family member, I love it. And if I'm saving it, then that means either I'm coming back later, I'm going to share it later, whatever. So shares and saves. And you said if you can see a 1% share or save rate, then you're
Eugenia:
Onto something. Yes, exactly. If it falls below that, then I think there's something wrong. Likes I find to be kind of the most irrelevant ratio, because if it doesn't get about five to 10% of likes, then it's not getting delivered anyways, so it doesn't really matter. So shares and saves, there are some things that we can do to improve our likelihood of that. So with saves, if you make any content that is worth reviewing later. So for example, if you created a tutorial or something that had steps in it that someone might want to refer to later, that's a good way of creating save bait in a way. And then shares that kind of ties into the concept and the hook. If this is something that really delivered a surprise, really delivered an incredible punchline, that often will motivate us to share it with a friend.
Brett :
Very cool. Good. So then what else can we say here about viral tips, viral strategies? How else are we making our content really go
Eugenia:
Nuts? So the biggest mistake I see that brands make big and small is just being, unfortunately what's very much human nature is just to be a bit self-centered, because just like that, what I said before is people aren't thinking of us, and it's so much more extreme with this discovery type of algorithm, the tiktoks, the Instagram reels, the YouTube shorts, where unlike browsing on YouTube where I might be searching and I'm curious about how to make really great Google ads, and then I find a Brett Curry video. Oh, well, that's a great thumbnail, Brett, I'm going to go ahead and click on that. By then, I've really bought in, right? I've evaluated, I've searched a question, I've seen your thumbnail, I've seen your title. I am trusting that you have something to deliver, and then I'm going to watch your video. That's so much more of a more committed viewer than someone who has just seen the cat video, the Four Seasons baby video, all the junk we see on TikTok. So we have to really think about someone who's not coming in with us at all, top of mind and quite the opposite, and someone who's coming in without any context. So we have to treat each short form video like we're introducing ourselves to a stranger all over again. It can be very hard because we're thinking about our products every day. We've done it for years, we've obsessed over it. So we really have to step outside of ourselves and think about what is it like from an audience point of view.
Brett :
Yeah, we have that what's called the curse of knowledge. So in the weeds and in the background of our product that it's impossible for us to fully be objective about it. And to think about it like someone who's never seen it or experienced it before takes a lot of work to get that perspective. My buddy, Jacque Spitzer, he runs Raindrop awesome creative agency. He talks about one of the mistakes, and this totally ties into what you said, one of the mistakes that marketers make is they sit down and think, what do I want to say? What do I want to say? When in reality, you should be thinking about what does my market want to see and what do they want to hear? And then how does that relate to my product or my offering? So really tailoring this to, it doesn't matter what I want to say, it's, it matters what you want to receive or see about this. And then, yeah, I think one of the biggest fallacies, biggest mistakes in marketing is assuming that your customers or the marketplace is thinking about you. They're not. They're thinking about themselves. And so for you to break through and to get them to think about you takes a lot of work.
Eugenia:
Totally.
Brett :
Yeah. Awesome. So let's talk about platforms just a little bit, because I know you had your initial success on Facebook and Instagram. You've done really well on TikTok as well. Do you view those platforms very differently as your crafting content, or is it mostly the same with a few differences?
Eugenia:
Yeah, I do think of them a little differently, but for the most part, TikTok has set the trend. So TikTok has dragged these platforms along to their culture and their type of algorithm. They're not quite the same algorithm, but they're following along. So I often create with TikTok in mind for the most part, because that tends to be where the other platforms are going to follow. So TikTok is sort of the trendsetter in that way. So I'll think about TikTok first where their videos are favoring over a minute long, so the delivery is crazy different. If you can just hit that one minute and one second mark. As opposed to being under. Yeah, yeah. Isn't that wild? They blew up as the 15 second video platform, and now they favor over a minute. I saw they released some news on how much longer content is being consumed, and it was a majority of it being over a minute.
So the appetite for longer videos has grown quite a bit. So this is an advantage for us. So if we know that the demand for over a minute videos is much higher, but the supply is still a lot of people favor creating short, quick videos because it's easier, we can take advantage of that. Instagram is also following suit a little bit. So I received a notification on Instagram reels when I posted a short video and it said, oh, hey, reels over 30 seconds are performing better. Wow. So there's a bit of an appetite there. So for reels, I'm aiming for somewhere between 30 seconds and a minute for YouTube shorts. They still accept short videos. And I had a short video recently that did nothing on TikTok and Instagram, but it reached, I think it's about 4 million views on YouTube shorts. Wow. Yeah. So super simple, easy. It was just my dog and his Panda loon, panda costume, just running on a dock and then posing looking happy, and that was it. So it was wonderful. I used some text to try to hook people into that, but it did great. So YouTube Shorts has more flexibility, and in some ways I believe it favors shorter content just because audience is still expecting short content from that platform. So I will create the first concept with TikTok in mind, but then create these alternate edits for the other platforms.
Brett :
And when you're editing, I love that. So you're creating for TikTok first with TikTok in mind first, then you're doing edits for Instagram reels and YouTube shorts. As you're making those edits from TikTok to the other platforms, is it more about the length of the video that you're changing or are there other elements about the video that you're changing to do well in Instagram reels?
Eugenia:
Yeah, that's a great question. So on Instagram and Facebook, so much content is actually consumed on mute. That's very different. If we want our video to do well on those platforms, we really have to figure out how do we make this consumable while it's muted,
Brett :
Visual storytelling, and maybe submit some text on screen screen
Eugenia:
Exactly, exactly thing. And then caption. So we have to also think about leaving a lot of extra space at the top so that we can include captions, although people won't know what's going on in the video. And then YouTube shorts is also more heavily visual than TikTok. TikTok tends to have a lot more storytelling these days, a lot more audio, face to camera talking. I've noticed that in 2024, there's even seemingly more favor towards natural sound. So people are less interested in the voiceover. Unfortunately, on TikTok, I miss the days of voiceover.
Brett :
Interesting. For a while, it was like the AI voiceover trend was going on.
Eugenia:
I think that there's been a increased appetite for that hyperreal stuff where instead of a day, the or old days of, Hey guys, come with, I'm going to go and do my makeup now. People just want to see the natural sounds of the makeup clinging and someone storytelling in face to camera style like FaceTime. You'll even see something interesting. If you see a video that's gone pretty viral and someone put music over it, people will comment, Hey, can you repost us with just the raw sound? I don't want to hear the music. Yeah,
Brett :
No
Eugenia:
Way. And they have no idea what the sound is. It's even interesting. But they just have that hunger for what really happened.
Brett :
Don't need music. I want to hear that. I want to hear the story. I want to hear the real sounds
Eugenia:
Of what people want to be a fly on the wall and watch what happened.
Brett :
And so how are you advising your clients? You're coaching them on creating content, you're building for TikTok. First, you're making edits for Instagram reels and YouTube shorts. How are you then advising them what to do with this content from an ads perspective? Because a lot of times great, viral, organic content can make for either an ad in and of itself, or a component or a piece or the hook
Eugenia:
Of an ad. Yeah, definitely. So I see that people talk about TikTok ads quite differently than Meta and the others where TikTok ads seem to have a much higher level of pressure on seeming like organic content. So in order to create TikTok ads, I think we really have to figure out what's playing well in organic TikTok. Otherwise, we're kind of just throwing money away. People have just such an expectation when they're scrolling through TikTok that this is going to be something that's entertaining on its own and not feel like an ad. So the moment that someone smells the ad stock music or the ad tone, they can get really turned off on TikTok. So I think for my clients, I try to encourage them to use this as an opportunity to set a higher bar for what feels like a real authentic, organic piece of content that they can then use for their ads. For Meta. I see such different results from company to company, and I'm sure way more about this than I do, just as far as what ends up working on their ad account. It's so varied, but if you make something that is organically grabbing, I think it helps you with your ad retention and all the things that could make ads hopefully a lot less expensive.
Brett :
Totally. Yeah. And sometimes we're seeing even just taking an organic content, the best piece of organic content and running them as ads, we do that on YouTube shorts quite frequently. Well, let's do this. This has been an absolute blast. I do want to talk about Panta Lo a little bit more where people can find it and buy it and stuff like that, and also your agency. But any other final tips, final takeaways, final thoughts that we didn't already talk about? Yeah,
Eugenia:
I think just as far as actionable steps for people who are trying to direct their teams or themselves trying to make content, just keep in mind that people want to hear from a person. They want to hear about your stories and your voice more so than they want to hear from a brand. So I think of actually one of the sharks that was on my Shark Tank episode, Sarah Blakely, she's such a rockstar.
Brett :
Wow. She's a legend man. Yep. Founder of Spanx, married to Jesse Itzler, Jesse Itzler, Hass, written books and marquis jets. Jesse Hitler's an awesome guy too, but Sarah, wow, what an amazing,
Eugenia:
She's a legend. Youngest self-made female billionaire. I'm going to keep her in that spot. I don't buy the Kylie Jenner thing. So if you look at her personal account, her Sarah Blakely account, people are so highly engaged. She's talking to the camera, she's bringing them along with her personal perspective and point of view, compare that with the Spanx account. People are not that interested in seeing a catalog photo hosted. So yeah, bring people into the raw story. Be willing to share the emotion and the things that are problems that your product can solve. Brainstorm on all the problems that your product can address, and just keep on hammering on that. A big mistake that brands will make is that they feel like, oh, well, I demonstrated my product a couple of times. People are tired of saying that, no, it's a totally different audience. You reached 10,000 people.
There's hundreds of millions of people still out there who need to hear about it. So you have to do that ad nauseum. So stick with it. And then really, really, when you are engaging with team members or content creators, hold them to those metrics. See where the math is pointing you on. Whether this is set up for success. I sadly see a lot of brands wasting tons of money or multiple salaries being spent on creators who are just not going to perform well. So yeah, really look at those things and if you need help, get someone who has a real clear view of viral strategy in there to help you with do that.
Brett :
Really great advice. I think one of my favorite bits of wisdom related to communication or organic content or ads is just about the time you are sick of saying something. That's the very beginning of people beginning to understand it and absorb it. And so you've got to tell the same story a thousand different times in a thousand different ways. And you've got to re-look at the same problem from every angle and use different analogies and different stories and different things to tell that. And really, yeah, when you are sick of something or when you think you've just repeated yourself over and over again, you're just getting started. And so hopefully that gives a little courage to, I'm just going to keep shouting this from the rooftops in an interesting way, and it will make a difference over time. So that's awesome. So as people are listening to this and they're like, Hey, I just got to get a visual of what a pantaloon is, or maybe they're like, Hey, my dog could be the next Huxley, maybe I need to buy a panda loon. Where can people find
Eugenia:
Your dogs? Sure. Panda loon.com is always the best place to get everything, the best and best prices. We're also on Amazon as well. If you're in a hurry and you need that prime shipping, I totally understand. And then we're also my socials. I tend to lean into my socials through Huxley's accounts, Huxley, the panda, puffy, and that goes into, actually what I just said was people want to hear from a person. So it's like me and my dog's point of view as opposed to a brand. So yeah, I lean into storytelling on those accounts.
Brett :
So how demanding is Huxley? He's a star. He's a star of the business. Does he demand certain treats or certain dog food, or how do you spoil Huxley, but also how do you keep it real
Eugenia:
With him? He lives a pretty pampered life, I will admit. Yeah, he has a pretty great life. Nothing but the best for Huxley. He really is my co-founder. I tell people that and I think they giggle. Like I might be joking sometimes, but he's been to every meeting with me, every speaking event. Yeah, every call, he's there. He's right there. So yeah,
Brett :
It's amazing. It's amazing. I forgot to mention this. I forgot to ask rather, I forgot to ask earlier, but Amazon, what's your, in just a few minutes, what is your overall Amazon approach? Are you digging into Amazon ads? Are you working on Amazon Organic? Are you mostly treating Amazon as this is a place for people to buy? It's a preferred place for some people to buy, but I'm going to focus on brand building and content and then let Amazon just close
Eugenia:
Teams? Yeah, honestly, it's a bit of both. Everyone has a love hate relationship with Amazon for sure. I have a friend who describes it as an abusive relationship sometimes.
Brett :
Yeah, not completely inaccurate for sure.
Eugenia:
Unfortunately, don't turn off the podcast. Amazon, if you're listening. Yeah, I have to use Amazon. Unfortunately, it seems to be a place that is almost impossible to get away from, in part because there's such a seasonal rush for my product that in October when you need that quick shipping, people are just going to go there. So it's a combination. I do some Amazon ads. I leaned in a bit heavy on Amazon ads last year, and I felt like it ate up my organic sales quite a bit. So regret. But I am finding that getting organic content to perform off Amazon really skyrocketed my Amazon. So I launched on Amazon and had some luck in a video going viral at the same time again. And so it went from complete zero ranking up to when the number one new releases very quickly because of that organic. And I think Amazon just really loves when you bring them traffic so much that they're willing to reward it.
Brett :
They love external traffic, absolutely take care of Amazon's traffic as well. So treat that customer right. You need to have a high conversion rate and things like that. But Amazon loves it when you bring in fresh eyeballs and people that are coming from outside of Amazon just to buy your product that is gold and really makes a difference. So Eugene, yet, this has been brilliant. This has been super, super fun. I loved it. How can people get in touch with you? What if they want to work with you on content or consulting or whatever, how
Eugenia:
Can they get in touch you? Yeah, I'd love to hear from you. You can always find me on social and send me a DM or Eugene at Huxley Media Group. If you go on huxley media group.com, you can grab my email pretty easily. Yeah, I love helping brands. I've created content for a lot of big brands, but it's actually a ton of fun to help small and medium brands with strategy so that they can learn to fish for themselves.
Brett :
Well, Gina, this has been absolutely a blast. Thank you so much. We'll link to everything in the show notes, but really appreciate the time and now I'm motivated and inspired. Got to go create some viral content. Alright, sounds good. Awesome. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We'd love to hear from you. If you've not left a review of the show, please do that. If you heard this podcast and you're like, Hey, this person needs to hear this content, then share this with them, that would mean the world to me. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.
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