You walk to your mailbox. Inside you find a hand-addressed envelope. It looks like it could be a thank you note of a birthday card. What are the odds you open it? 100%.
I love direct mail. Especially now because mailboxes are nearly empty (compared to 15-20 years ago). In this episode I interview David Wachs, CEO of Handwrytten. We discuss creative and affordable ways eCommerce companies can use Direct Mail to build customer loyalty and increase sales. We also discuss how his technology allows for automated handwritten notes...it’s pretty fantastic.
Here’s a look at what we discuss:
- How to use handwritten thank you notes to increase referrals
- How an online fashion company sent 700 handwritten notes, scored a 16.8% redemption rate and drove an ROI over 300%.
- Using direct mail to build your loyalty program
- Leveraging direct mail to get more positive reviews and/or mitigate negative reviews
- Launching direct mail Win-back campaigns
- Abandon cart direct mail sequences
- Automating handwritten thank-yous
- And more!
Mentioned in this episode:
VNYL - Vinyl Record Membership Club
Zendesk - Customer Support Ticket System & Sales CRM Software Company
David Wachs - CEO and Chief Robot Mechanic at Handwrytten
Handwrytten - Handwritten Notes Platform
When you signup with Handwrytten using your email, use discount code, “podcast,” for $5 credit toward your first purchase.
Episode Transcript
Brett:
Well, hello and welcome to another addition of the eCommerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce and today, we are going old school with a twist. It's like the blending of old school and new school, if that's even a term, I don't know. We're going to be talking about a very proven marketing tactic that I almost guarantee you're not using but you should consider and we're going to have a lot of fun talking about it.
Brett:
So, we're talking about handwritten direct mail and I believe handwritten direct mail could be a huge part of your marketing secret weapon, something you do that your competitors are not doing and something that will allow you to break through the clutter. I'm actually a bit of a direct mail connoisseur. I used to do some direct mail in a previous life, so we'll talk maybe a little bit about that.
Brett:
My guest is Mr. David Wachs. He's the CEO and chief robot mechanic, we'll learn what that means in a minute, of a company called Handwrytten and so with that, David, welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on and really excited to dive into this topic.
David:
Pleasure to be here, Brett. This is super cool that you're having me on.
Brett:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's talk a little bit about your background and what was the inspiration for this company and then tell people what you do and then we'll dive into some really interesting stats about direct mail and email and some other things and then get into some practical stuff too. So, walk us through kind of a 90-second story. How did you get here?
David:
For sure. So back in 2001, 2002, I started a text messaging company called Cellit and what Cellit did was we ... Initially, it was for real estate, you drive by a house, you'd want info on that house. You'd see a little sign and it'd say text for info on this house. You text and you get the info and then the realtor would get a lead and this was way before the iPhone and that grew out of just real estate to just general marketing. So we'd work with ... We started a second product called CouponZap for restaurants and bars but that quickly became used by Abercrombie & Fitch and Toys "R" Us and Sam's Club and these other large retailers and stuff like that.
David:
And what I realized in doing this company was while text messaging works, I saw a decline in usefulness because the total volume of texts and emails and tweets when I started Handwrytten back six years ago, people were getting overloaded with electronic communication and you hit the nail on the head when you said handwritten notes cut through the clutter. So, basically, what happened was I sold my company in 2012. I had to stick with the new owners for two years and then in 2014, basically, the day after I finished up my last company, I thought gee, there has to be a better way to improve handwritten notes and the reason I did that is when I sold the company, I sent ... I wanted to be personal, so I sent handwritten notes to my clients. I sent handwritten notes to my employees and my hand started cramping up or I'd notice when I'd go to send a handwritten birthday card to my mom, I'd go to the store to get it but then I'd forget to mail it or I didn't have a stamp or whatever. So, I thought there has to be a better way.
Brett:
There's also that problem of no auto correct and/or no spell check because I do that with cards now. I'm so used to typing and I type fast but I'll write a card and I'm like ah, I didn't mean to write that here. I need to move this sentence here and like I can't do any of that. Anyway.
David:
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Otherwise, your note's all scratched out and everything else. Like when I send an actual handwritten note to my wife or whatever for her birthday, it looks terrible because it's all scratched out . So that's why we started Handwrytten and the idea was to use technology to make sending a handwritten note as easy as sending an email or a tweet or whatever else and we do that through software on the front end, so we have an iPhone app, an Android app, a website, Zapier integration, which is probably big with all your Shopify users.
Brett:
Yup, for sure.
David:
A full API and a website where you can upload bulk orders and then on the backend, we use technology to actually write the notes. So there, currently, we have 95 robots. These are actual robots. We build them here in our facility in Phoenix, Arizona. They're a combination of 3D printed parts, laser cut parts, conveyor belts. I mean we make everything down to literally the rubber wheels that pull the paper along. So, those robots then write out your handwritten note in the handwriting style of your choice including your own handwriting if you pay for it and then we stuff and stamp it with a real forever stamp and send it on its way. It looks totally realistic
Brett:
These robots actually ... They actually have ... And they're using an ink pen, right? So they're actually ... The robot is moving the ink pen. So it looks like ink on paper with pen because that's what it is.
David:
Exactly, and it smudges. We actually just use a Pilot G2 ballpoint pen, which you could pick up at OfficeMax or Staples or whatever else and then people give it the smudge test. They'll lick their finger and make sure that the ink smudges and laser print ... People say why don't you just laser print the notes, it just doesn't look the same. If you laser print the handwritten note, the way the ink falls on the paper with a laser printer is very different than with a pen and we want this to be a fully ... And in fact, we think if you send somebody a fake laser printed note, it could actually hurt your brand rather than help.
Brett:
Right, you're trying to trick me. You're trying to trick me into the fact that this is handwritten but I know it's not, so you actually lose points.
David:
Right and I mean there is potentially if you're really ... Some people have that concern about this because it's not actually written by you but it's very, very close to the point that I see these notes coming off the machines, I see the robots writing them, I look at the end product and I have a hard time telling it's done by a robot.
Brett:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm confident it will pass the smell test with almost everybody if not everybody. So what's interesting and I mentioned this in the intro, I've been a marketing junkie for a long time and I did a decent amount of direct mail back in the day for myself to grow my first agency and to help clients grow and there was one thing I learned early on is there's two types of mail that you always open. One, if it's something that's handwritten because you're wondering who is this? Is this a friend? Is this a family member? What is this? It's handwritten, so I have to open it. And then something that's like three dimensional, so something that maybe you can tell there's something in it, almost like a prize inside or a gift, so we call that lumpy mail and 3D mail.
Brett:
But you send one of those two things, it's going to get opened. If it looks like we use the term marketing mail instead of junk mail, but if it looks like marketing mail, probably not going to get opened. And what's so interesting and I want to dive into ... You talked about email and text messaging, those being kind of overloaded, I want to talk about that in detail in a minute, there was a time when mailboxes were overloaded too. Where you would open your mailbox and it was just crammed to the gills with flyers and circulars and postcards. I mean it was just like spilling out. That's not the case anymore. I mean that just does not happen anymore. The mailbox is relatively empty and so I think it's a huge opportunity.
Brett:
Let's talk about this electronic communication and what kind of led you to pivot from your old company. Enlighten us. What does it look like now in terms of email marketing and text messaging? How much are we bombarded on a daily basis with those messages?
David:
Yeah, for sure. So, just some stats, the average office worker these days gets about 147 emails a day according to one survey and I could get you where this is from, 28% of average office worker's time is spent just dealing with email and then 35 to 44-year-olds sends or receives nearly 1600, 1-6-0-0, texts per month and an 18 to 24-year-old sends and receives nearly 4000 per month. So it's all these electronic notes getting pushed around. There's a very high likelihood your electronic message might get lost in the shuffle. As far as print, 44% of all, what I call junk mail, which is fully reproducible photocopied mail, 44% never gets opened. The typical response rate for print pieces is under 5%. It's more like 4.4%. But when you combine even just a handwritten envelope, you see a 300% higher open rate than a standard print piece.
Brett:
Wow, wow.
David:
So, it's just to your point exactly, people are wondering who wrote me this note? What's this all about? We get a lot of questions, do we do postcards? And yes, technically we can but there's something about that experience, to your point, about getting something that's handwritten and taking the moment to open it because you're wondering what's in it, so we really don't do a lot of postcards. We think that it's a much better experience to just do handwritten notes or handwritten-
Brett:
that envelope that is hand addressed, when you get that, there's like this experience of anticipation, what is it? Who's it from? I want to find out. So it's almost like a .. as you get that, you want to know and you enjoy that and then you're also more engaged then as you read that piece whereas if you send a postcard, it's all revealed instantly. What is this? I get it.
David:
Yup, yup. According to the greeting card association, and this is back in 2006 study, 64% of Americans prefer handwritten notes to electronic communication and what I find and what my clients find is people put these notes on display. Like you put it on your desk, you stand it on your desk or on your bookshelf behind your desk. If you don't have a stainless steel fridge that can't accept a magnet, maybe you magnetize the note your grandmother gave you to your fridge. We have a lot of clients that are taking the handwritten notes that they send their customers and they're putting them on Instagram and Twitter and that type of thing.
David:
So, for instance, we have a client called Vnyl, V-N-Y-L. They're one of the few brands that lets us mention them but they're a record box subscription. So they're literally sending vinyl records in the mail and with those records, they're sending a handwritten note. You can just go on Twitter and search for Vnyl and you'll pop up a bunch of people taking photos of those notes.
David:
We work with a YouTube show that's like one of the number one morning daily YouTube shows and they have a fan club that you can subscribe to and as part of this fan club, you sign up to get or you get a handwritten note from the host of the show and that note is tweeted all over the place and it's funny because that client doesn't mix up the note at all, so the content is always exactly the same and people post these notes and they're so excited to get this handwritten note from the host of the YouTube show and they just don't even notice that all the notes read the exact same. I think they could actually implement that a little bit better by mixing up the message a bit but even without that, their viewer base is thrilled to get those notes.
Brett:
It still works. It still works. Yeah, I'll give you a quick example and this is a longtime client of mine and they're also a friend, been helping them with marketing since about 2004, I think, but it's as jewelry store and they actually hand write thank you notes. If someone makes a purchase, the owner or the salesperson will hand write a note. It's a little easier for them because you're not talking about thousands of transactions a month, it's probably more like dozens for each salesperson but even on ... They're a client of mine, I purchased something for my wife there recently and I got a handwritten note and it's interesting because it's still sitting out. It's in our room. It's on display. I see it all the time. I feel weird throwing it away. It's something that someone took time to hand write it and send it to me. So I think it's one of those things that the value, the goodwill that's generated, the intention that's garnered, it's disproportionate to the cost associated with it.
Brett:
Where it's like the perceived value, the relationship building that this creates is super valuable and what's interesting and we talk about it on this podcast a lot is we're building brands here, right? We're trying to establish customer relationships and build lifetime value for the customer and really build a brand so that you can one day maybe sell your eCommerce business or just continue to grow it and I think this is one of those elements that can build immense loyalty and repeat purchases and referrals and several other things and I would almost guarantee that none of your competitors are using this tactic.
David:
Yeah, I mean all of your clients, I'm guessing, or most of them are online only and they don't have that face-to-face relationship with their customer but sending a handwritten note is a very personal communication mechanism and what's funny is most of our clients, well, I'd say about half of our clients are online brands too and they're beating out the brick and mortar brands by doing this because typically, the jewelry store, you were lucky that you got a note from a jewelry store. Most people just don't have the time anymore.
Brett:
Right.
David:
They're too busy dealing with their emails that eat up 28% of the day. So, being an online brand and being able to automate this gives them a real edge, and we're doing this for some luxury brands, just their online purchases. We're doing this for luxury brands where we're doing it for all their sales and they're seeing that it really is impacting the bottom line, creating repeat purchasing or extending if it's a subscription offering, extending the lifetime value of that customer.
Brett:
That's awesome. So let's talk about some specific uses. I know we've kind of alluded to a couple but how would you suggest an eCommerce company utilize these handwritten, hand addressed notes?
David:
Yeah, so I would not ... Handwritten notes are always going to be more expensive than laser printed or junk mail because the first thing we have to do is write on something and a printed piece is what we write on. We write on a piece of stationary. So we can never compete with junk mail because A, that's a less quality piece of paper than we'd even write on but we have to print something first just like junk mail is printed. So, I would not recommend doing a blast to everybody in a zip code or everybody in the United States. As much as we'd love the business, it's going to be too expensive. But that said, we do a lot of followup with clients and oftentimes, this is just the thank you. They're asking thank you for a few reasons. One, because they just want to build the relationship with you. They also want to keep the reviews coming. So if they're doing anything on Amazon or Yelp, they want you to go back and place a good review.
David:
So, it's for placing good reviews. It's also for mitigating bad reviews. We have one fulfilled by Amazon seller that is strictly using the notes to keep people from putting bad reviews in. So they'll say, hey, we're so glad you purchased this product. If you had a bad experience, please let us know. We'll make it right before you go place a review. So, they're doing that for that.
Brett:
Do you have any stats on what that's ... And I'm sure it's been effective but any specifics on how that's helped mitigate bad reviews?
David:
I don't have any stats. I did do lunch with a client and they said that was their main use and they keep re-upping with us just for that. So they're not interested in keeping the good reviews coming. They found true effectiveness in bad reviews but quite frankly, I don't have any stats there.
Brett:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David:
I do have good stats on a couponing campaign. So we have a client, they're a bespoke suit manufacturer based out of Canada. So what they'll do is they'll take your measurements and then they'll go farm it out to China, get you a beautiful suit made just to you and then mail it to you. Their CEO sent out 700 coupon codes and handwritten notes and each coupon code was unique to the customer. All notes were signed by the CEO, so we replicated the CEO's signature. They had a 16.85% redemption rate on
Brett:
What? 16%? That's unheard of. That's insane.
Brett:
Were these previous buyers or just people on a particular list? Okay, yeah.
David:
They were previous buyers that were high value buyers and they saw a return on investment of over 300% from that campaign.
Brett:
Wow.
David:
We have a meal box that puts five different messages on five different cards, so if you're with the meal box for five weeks, you'll get one of each of these cards and they find that providing those handwritten notes in the meal box improves customer retention by over 10%, which really moves the needle for them. Who else can I mention here? We've had one client that's a sales organization. They find that when they started sending handwritten notes to their sales prospects, it improved the meeting booking rate by 300% again. So again, the 3 times numbers. There are a lot of stats that ... One of the more interesting is so far we've covered meeting bookings, coupon codes, general thank yous and reviews.
David:
We've seen people use it for shopping cart abandonment. So if you go through the steps and enter your address but then don't purchase the product, they might follow up with you with a handwritten note. I don't have any stats there. And then just anecdotally, we have a client that does snack boxes. So if you're an office and you subscribe to receive a snack box every month or every two weeks and it comes to your office, it's got beef jerky and chips and everything for your office, what they'll do is they've found that they intentionally send you the wrong box now and then two weeks later, they'll send you the right box with a handwritten note apologizing for the wrong box because they find by fixing a wrong, by righting a wrong and going through that drama with a client, they end up with a more loyal client than if that client never had a bad experience.
David:
Now, granted, that client is ... Yeah, the client's still getting a free box of snacks because they got the wrong one and then the right one, so they're thrilled about that, but throwing in the handwritten note certainly doesn't hurt either.
Brett:
Wow. So, I'll tie that into an electronic version of that. I know for a while because I've got a lot of friends in the info marketing space, people doing webinars and product launches and things like that, there was definitely a tactic where you'd send an email without a link to something, so it's like, hey, going to be awesome. It's going to be all this stuff and then you send ... And then a few minutes later, you send an oops, forgot the link and that oops email would get a ton of opens and so that was kind of a tactic. That is fascinating, what you just shared because yeah, it's really a way to get ... You could almost think about that, just kind of riffing on this a little bit, you could almost use the wrong package you sent, like to give samples. So it's like hey, these are things that I think they might like. It's not what they ordered but I'm going to put it in here to kind of sample it and then I'll send them the right order with an apology.
David:
Yup.
Brett:
That's really, really smart. So I want to kind of break down a few of these because I think there's more we could talk about with a couple of these. So, the thank you for purchase, if all you did was send a thank you and you didn't ask for anything, you didn't mention anything, I think a few things are going to happen naturally. I think people will leave better reviews. I think you will get more repeat purchases but I think it's better to not leave things to chance. I think it's better to ask directly, as long as you ask in a cool way, in a way that still builds goodwill but I would suggest using those thank you notes to either promote a loyalty program, to promote a referral program ... It's been a while but I did an episode on referral programs with a guest and just talking about hey, emailing out, requesting people refer to a friend, giving each person a little bonus, like referral programs for eCommerce are super powerful. This could be a great way to do that and then I love the review mechanism as well. Like even ...
Brett:
I could see it going both ways. I think probably for most companies, the request for a good review is going to be the way to go and then my guess is and you obviously don't have to reveal anything but the client that you mentioned is mitigating the bad reviews, they must be in a ... It must be like a trick to use case or one of those products that's just prone to bad reviews and so they're trying to mitigate that. Lots that could be done there. Well, what about like a win back campaign. So you know we have a lot of clients that are selling consumables, so whether it's ever quarter or every month, people should be reordering. Do you see handwritten notes used as a win back campaign? I guess that suit company, that's almost a win back.
David:
Exactly. That's what I was going to say. That was kind of their win back. It was also kind of a holiday offer they were doing. It's really kind of hard to stay on top of all the different use cases we're seeing. One that I use personally and this probably doesn't apply is when I go to a trade show, I try to get the prior to the trade show and then I blast it out and then I end up with so many meetings I don't go the trade show, I just sit in the lobby and take meetings but that's worked out very well. We have a lot of mortgage brokers, realtors.
David:
We have first level OEM car manufacturers, so think the big three. If you were to call them for customer support as opposed to calling your dealership, I don't know why you just wouldn't call your dealership but if you call the main number for the car brand, depending on the resolution of the call, you will get a handwritten note saying we're so glad you were able to resolve the issue or we were not able to resolve the issue, that type of thing. For a while we were, and we could talk about integrations later, we were trying to get an integration with Zendesk off the ground to make this super easy. Right now, you probably have to do it through Zapier or something else but just sending followups to customer support requests is something we do quite often.
Brett:
Love that, love that. Again, that just ... If you're able to fix the wrong and then that followup of the postcard, that's awesome. I order these organic vegan shakes, I'm not vegan but these shakes that I order are. They're like meal replacement and I get them monthly. They're super great. But I got an empty package this last month, like someone stole it out of my mailbox and then I contacted ... I'm not going to mention the company name because I don't want them to get bombarded with stuff like this, although I do trust my listeners but I contacted the company and they were like oh, we'll send one out right away and I got a replacement two days later and they followed up with me, which was amazing and so now I love them even more but if I got a handwritten note with that. Oh man, that would've been ... That would've been even more impressive and I would've been telling more people about it probably.
David:
Yeah, and then just to keep it ... The meal boxes do this but also it's like online mattress brands and stuff, they'll include a handwritten note in the product and this is a really easy way to do it with Amazon or anything else where you don't have too much control anymore of knowing who your customers are, so just including a generic note in the product, it at least makes it appear that that company is run by real people and it's not just-
Brett:
Yes, yes.
David:
Fulfilled by Amazon and made in China.
Brett:
Yup, yup. Yeah, that's super smart. Yeah, so even if it's or something fulfilled by Amazon and you can't personalize the note, at least it still looks handwritten and then that causes people to say this is a real company, maybe even a small company, like taking care of them, which is cool. Let's talk about some integrations then. What do you integrate with and how could someone maybe automate some of these processes?
David:
So, we integrate ... We have a full API that allows you to integrate with whatever you want but out of the box, we integrate with Salesforce.com, Zapier is the big one and HubSpot. So, for Zapier, we have a lot of people using two or three-step zaps for sending handwritten notes from Shopify. So the first step might be a filter and anybody that's not familiar with Zapier, Zapier is like the coolest thing and any of your Shopify users should go check it out right away but it allows you to connect Shopify to 2000 different services, Handwrytten is one of them and you can create pretty complex interactions or flows just by clicking your mouse and what a lot of people do is step one of that flow is what's called a filter and you can say, okay, every time I get an order from Shopify, that's the trigger, let me filter it and see is this the nth order.
David:
So, maybe I want to send this the 10th time somebody buys or maybe I want to send it when their total value of being a client is over a hundred bucks or maybe I want to send the note on their first order. You can set all those filters up right within Zapier and then you send it to Handwrytten and Handwrytten will just write out whatever note you want. It could include a category. So thank you so much for your purchase of these blue plantain chips or whatever that is and then we're a small company. Let us know what we can do to serve you better and then you'd sign it off and then that note would go out automatically. Thanks to the post office, notes take four or five days to get there, so it might naturally be a nice flow for extended communication with a customer or you can insert a delay within Zapier so that maybe it doesn't go out four or five days later, maybe it leaves Handwrytten five days later, then it gets another four or five days from the post office and gets there 10 days later, whatever that is.
David:
You could set up when you get a new customer in Shopify or your store, if you happen to have their birthday or anything like that, you can send a followup on their birthday or on their anniversary of being a client, all that's very easy to do. Really, the possibilities are kind of endless with Zapier. In that note that you send them, in addition to sending a handwritten note, we can do customer inserts. So we could include a physical coupon card or gift card-
Brett:
Business card, whatever.
David:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. All of the notes can be written on their stationary. It's real easy to go into Handwrytten, create a custom piece of stationary and then within Zapier, you just select that stationary and it will use that moving forward. So the whole process can look very custom and the return address is your return address too, so it'll look entirely natural. The one giveaway and I would say 99% of our customers don't care about this but the postmark is going to be Phoenix because that's where our facility is, but nobody looks at that. They all look at the return address anyway. So it's not that big a deal.
Brett:
Yeah, nobody looks at that. That's like you got to be in the business of direct mail to look at where it's postmarked from or old school when you used to get tons and tons of direct mail but yeah, today, no way are people going to notice that.
David:
Yeah, you're asking actually about other stores. We have one pet food company and they know the birthday of your pet and on the birthday of your pet, they send you little party hats for your dog or cat in a little package that we put together. So it's a handwritten note and then these little party hats are filled together and then you're supposed to take a picture of your animal having a party and then of course, those go to Instagram and do the that way.
Brett:
Yeah, and I sure people take a picture of the card at times and then they have the hats and stuff, that's really, really cool. Really smart. Well, David, this has been fantastic. So, let's talk about how could people connect with you? How can they learn more? How do you make it easy to get started? Kind of walk through those if you would.
David:
Oh sure. So you just go to handwrytten.com, that's H-A-N-D-W-R-Y-T-T-E-N.com, so handwritten with a Y. I'm on Twitter, David B Wachs, sorry, I had to remember if there was a middle initial. So, D-A-V-I-D, B as in boy, W-A-C-H-S or Handwrytten@handwrytten on Twitter and yeah, we're here for you. We've got a great call center team able to answer questions or just go online, play with it. There's no cost to get started. If you do sign up with an email and password as opposed to using Google or Facebook, use discount code "podcast" for $5 credit for your first purchase and that'll be enough to get you maybe even two cards because we're running a discount now given COVID-19. So, yeah, so you'll get a $5 credit on your account, just go to handwrytten.com, sign up using discount code "podcast."
Brett:
That's amazing. And so I'm assuming you guys can also help give some guidance or some ideas on hey, if I want to set up a Zapier integration and I love those ideas you gave by the way. I think the first purchase thank you card is amazing. I think maybe once they get to five or 10, whatever's meaningful, another handwritten card and then maybe if you're going to launch something like a referral program or loyalty partner, I think a handwritten card for that would be great too, but can you give some guidance or some help on setting up Zapier?
David:
Yeah, yeah. You can email us and we'll try to walk you through it. If it really requires it, we'll get on a Zoom call with you and do a screen share and kind of help you point and click your way through it. Most of this should be pretty straightforward but we're always here to help and then if any of your customers use HubSpot or Salesforce, we're able to help them there as well.
Brett:
Fantastic. Well, David, this has been a ton of fun. I love this tactic and I think of all the things that I've seen, I remember when the handwritten fonts used to come out but it was all laser jets, like eh, it's okay. Like this is definitely the coolest thing I've seen when it comes to handwritten direct mail and I think this could be a real winner and a real differentiator. I think this could be a very, very powerful tactic for those who are listening.
Brett:
So, David from Handwrytten. I'll link to everything in the show notes. But thanks for coming on, man. I really appreciate it and yeah, look forward to talking to you again.
David:
Thank you so much, Brett. You be well. Stay safe out there.
Brett:
Yeah, you as well and with that, we'd love to hear feedback from you. Let us know what you thought of this episode and give us some ideas for other episodes. We want to make sure we're delivering the content that you want to hear. If you feel so inclined, we would love that five-star review on iTunes. That helps other people discover the podcast and with that, until next time, thank you for listening.
Brett:
All right, man, that's a wrap.
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