Building a brand is hard. Really hard.
Building a brand on Amazon carries some unique challenges. Sure, Amazon has built-in traffic, but grabbing attention, selling a great product, and then getting customers to buy again and again is hard.
No one knows that more than Bryan Porter, co-founder of Simple Modern. They launched on Amazon in 2016 and are now the 4th largest drinkware brand in the US. You probably own one of their tumblers or know someone who does.
This episode is a masterclass in:
- How to build a brand on Amazon that people seek out. How to rise above the noise of "me-to" products and drive discovery and repeat purchases.
- How to successfully go DTC when you're born on Amazon. This isn't easy, and most Amazon sellers fail outright or are only moderately successful.
- How to use product variation to increase conversion rates and drive search volume.
- Branded search or no branded search and Bryan's rule of 20x ROAS.
- Competing in a hyper-competitive category.
- Eliminating every weakness your product has.
- Why negative reviews might not be the only sign that you need to kill a product.
- And much more!
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Chapters:
(00:00) Introduction
(04:11) Simple Modern’s Founding Story
(17:42) Demand Capture and Paid Ads
(24:40) Building A Brand On Amazon
(40:40) Transitioning To a 1P Seller on Amazon
(46:23) Outro
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Show Notes:
- Kyle Fraughton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jbryanporter/
- Simple Modern: https://www.simplemodern.com/
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Connect With Brett:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thebrettcurry/
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@omgcommerce
- Website: https://www.omgcommerce.com/
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Past guests on eCommerce Evolution include Ezra Firestone, Steve Chou, Drew Sanocki, Jacques Spitzer, Jeremy Horowitz, Ryan Moran, Sean Frank, Andrew Youderian, Ryan McKenzie, Joseph Wilkins, Cody Wittick, Miki Agrawal, Justin Brooke, Nish Samantray, Kurt Elster, John Parkes, Chris Mercer, Rabah Rahil, Bear Handlon, Trevor Crump, Frederick Vallaeys, Preston Rutherford, Anthony Mink, Bill D’Allessandro, and more.
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Other episodes you might enjoy:
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Transcript:
Bryan :
The way that we win at Amazon is we take a customer who's searching for a water bottle or a kid's water bottle or a Tumblr, we convert them and the next time they're looking for something drinkware, they're searching for us.
Brett:
Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the eCommerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and today we're talking to Bryan Porter, co-founder of Simple Modern. We're talking about how they did it, how they became just a drinkware phenom, one of the top sellers on the planet, a brand born on Amazon that is just crushing it now in the omnichannel space. And really just a brand that I've admired and watched from a distance and now super excited to dive in and learn firsthand how they did it. So with that, Bryan, welcome to the show, man. And how's it going? Thanks
Bryan :
For having me on, Brett. It's going great. I'm excited to talk with you.
Brett:
Yeah, I've been following you on LinkedIn and of course Twitter and you and one of the other co-founders, Mike, you guys post great content and so I've been consuming that, enjoying that. And then there's also a connection. I know Mike is one of the co-hosts of the Operators podcast, A quick plug to the Operators awesome podcast. My buddy Sean Frank is also on that podcast and so had some connections and so finally able to make this happen, and so super, super excited about that. Now before we dive in, Bryan, I think this will be important before we talk drinkware and building a brand in Amazon and D two C and all of that good stuff. If anyone's watching and seeing the video now they're potentially looking behind you and seeing some bottles, but they're like, those are not simple modern bottles. That's some kind of other, it looks like you're sending messages in a bottle or something there. So for those that are intrigued, namely me, what are those bottles sitting on your desk?
Bryan :
It's something that a coworker from over a decade ago started doing. Every time he went to the beach, he would bring back sand from the beach and put it in a glass bottle like this. I just ripped his idea, but I think it's super cool. I've had the pleasure of going to places, beaches across the world from Hong Kong to Greece and the Caribbean and places in Israel. And so bringing it back, having it on the desk is really fun thing to remind me of those adventures and fun to talk about with people who come in.
Brett:
Super cool. Yeah, super cool to be transported back to that experience and also need to see the comparison, right? Because sand is very different in different places, and so it's probably asking to pick a favorite kid, but do you have a favorite or favorite top one to three that you could mention? Not Kids Beaches.
Bryan :
It's funny because places in the Caribbean, that's what I think of when the Turks and Caicos is probably my favorite beach, but the most beautiful sand on my desk in a bottles from Destin, Florida or 30 a, that sands walking on powdered sugar. It's just the widest, softest. So I hate to say America, but in terms of just sand, it's hard to beat that.
Brett:
It's pretty amazing. And I'm not the international traveler that you are, but I've been to Rio, which those beaches are amazing. My family, I go to the west coast a lot, so we go to Southern California a lot. Love those beaches. But we do go to the Destin Panama City Beach area every year, and it's true, man, San, it's the best. It's the softest, it's the widest. It's fantastic. So very cool. Well, thank you for that little diversion. Super fun. Let's dive in because I think a lot of people are wondering how the heck do you do this? First of all, guys started in 2016, but why a drinkware company? Why Amazon and how have you achieved this runaway success? And so can you kind of tell the founding story we'd love to hear?
Bryan :
Absolutely. So the founding story really starts at my previous job I worked with Mike previously. We were coworkers working on an e-commerce brand that was really more of a marketplace than it wasn't like creating a consumer product brand. And then we have a third co-founder. The
Brett:
Focus was more just selling products on marketplace.
Bryan :
We were more trying to compete with Amazon, which there's a reason why we wanted to start a side business. Amazon was crushing everyone and still is. So yeah, we have a history and we like to think of our previous job is really kind of the foundation that we've built simple, modern with, and we really wanted to create products that could contribute to people's everyday lives. We didn't feel a ton of value out of running more of a marketplace, so we felt like who better to try and create an Amazon brand than people who have been writing search algorithms for another website and have just a great understanding of how customers shop on marketplaces and how algorithms would decide to show certain listings the highest. Yeah, so we started simple modern as a side gig.
Brett:
So actually lemme just double click on that really quickly, Bryan. So you guys were creating the search algorithms for this other marketplace?
Bryan :
Yes, yes. We ran several different websites and one of them in particular was purely a model that's very similar to an Amazon where we had to figure out how to show the most relevant best things to customers whenever they search
Brett:
Any key insights. I want to get back to the story, but you're a guy that has written search algorithms, so I think a lot of people are fascinated by that. Any key insights or learnings that you can tell? I know you didn't create the Amazon algorithm, but any insights there that you can share as a creator of algorithms?
Bryan :
Sure. There's a few parts to creating an algorithm. One is how do you index listings? What do you use to decide what's relevant to a search? And there's nuances too that are hard, like the difference between water bottle and bottle of water. Those are two completely different things,
Brett:
But the words are, one, wanting to buy water. One you wanting to buy a container,
Bryan :
The words are essentially the same just in a different order. So you need to be able to pick up on nuances like that. And really most of what you have to go off of are titles from listings, and that's what Amazon does. It mostly indexes off the title and some content within the listing. Maybe you give the option for sellers to feed you keywords, but that's dangerous because who knows what they're going to put in the backend so that they don't want customers to see. So there's kind of indexing side. And then you have to decide once you get your group of relevant products, the order that you show them to customers, and obviously you need to optimize towards the click rates. You need to have the products that are going to grab the customer's attention and get them into the listing and then ultimately convert. So you have to weigh that. And then the thing we thought about a lot is how much do you weigh profitability of listings versus revenue if you're the marketplace? And so there's kind of a balance there. So yeah, it's kind of all those factors tie into it
Brett:
Super interesting and that totally makes sense. And yeah, obviously we try to understand, you try to hack, so to speak, the Amazon algorithm or the Google algorithm, and it does come down to relevance and click through rate and conversion rate and things like that and sales velocity. But yeah, just thought it'd be super interesting to hear from most people. Just try to figure it out. Most people have not written them before in the past, so that's awesome that you did that. So cool. So you guys, you decide to launch a brand on a marketplace, but yeah, why drinkware and why when you did it and yes, so continue the story.
Bryan :
Yeah, so I think one thing that makes us a little bit different is, and I dunno, there's a lot of people who decide to sell on Amazon and then figure out what product they want to get into. But the genesis of our company is that we have more of a channel insight than a product insight that we started with. So we just wanted to sell on Amazon, we're analysts at heart, and we felt like if we tested as many products as we could that would give us a better chance of finding whatever it may be that is best for us to kind of center our brand around
Brett:
Super smart.
Bryan :
So yeah, if you throw enough darts at the dartboard or I guess the more darts that you throw at the dartboard, the better chance you have of hitting the best possible option.
Brett:
So you didn't just start then with drinkware, you tried a few things and drinkware was what checked a lot of boxes and was taken off for
Bryan :
You, correct? Yes. And we did this all at night on the side. So we ended up being able to test I think five different things. They were all things that you could airship to not mess with sea shipping right off the bat. They had to be cheap in terms of nominal dollars per unit and costs because we didn't have a ton of money. So there were parameters that we use to decide what to test. So outside of drinkware, we tested things like a tea infuser, french press, silicone baking mats, a few other things. And this was in 2015 for context, right when Yeti 30 ounce Yeti Rambler was really
Brett:
Actually taking off
Bryan :
At that point doing doing what Stanley is right now. So drinkware was a young category and really starting to blossom at that time. So I think that testing a 32 ounce insulated bottle, the timing was really great. We didn't know it at the time, but choosing the vacuum insulated drinkware category was really the best thing we could have done because that category has been the fastest growing category in home and probably across every category, one of the fastest growing in the last 10 years.
Brett:
And who would've predicted Bryan with drinkware? You'd think you could survive with one or two of these things, but that's not the case, especially for moms for whatever reason. And so my wife, God bless her, she buys a million of these, but there's never enough. There's never enough drinkware because you need different sizes, you need different straws, you need different handles, you need different everything. Everything's got to be different. So you guys really you chose well. So congrats on that.
Bryan :
Yeah, it is funny how much wear has become more of a fashion accessory than a practical thing that you have in your life that you just want one of. And that is really the insight that we doubled down on that contributed to our success whenever we decided to go all in on drinkware after we tested different products. The question then quickly pivoted to how do you create the best drinkware brand on Amazon? Yeti existed, hydro Flask did swell, you have a bunch of these high margin competitors and then you have the factories at the lowest costs and there wasn't really anyone in the middle in terms of price. So that was one observation. So
Brett:
You found that gap of people that want quality but don't want to pay through the nose for it and people that don't want cheap. And so you found that gap and filled
Bryan :
It. Exactly. Typically brands don't like being in the middle. They'd rather be at the top or the bottom on price. But what we found is that we could provide value with the fashion elements, just the number of choices we give customers in our listing. A company like Yeti isn't really incentivized to sell more than eight or 10 different colors because they need to sit on a physical shelf and stay in stock. They're not e-commerce first and manufacturers aren't incentivized to have a ton of different color options because they're not wanting to have all their money sitting in inventory. They want to be buying manufacturing equipment. So they don't want to necessarily run that playbook. And that's really where we found our value prop was to, we got up to 45 different colors at one time, which is, I acknowledge that's way too many. And we've come back down to about 25 D
Brett:
Colors. I sure I can name anywhere near 45 colors, just be making stuff up at some point. That's
Bryan :
Amazing. It's decision fatigue well beyond that. But the beauty of offering all those different options to customers was that it mattered to them. When drinkware is becoming more like shoes or purses where customers want unique things, that's a value add. It also helped us to create a higher conversion rate on our listings, just a better chance for customers to find what they want. If we offer more variety with e-commerce, it does a cool thing where you create more front doors to your listing, more search terms you can rank on. So if we're the only company that sells yellow water bottles, not many people search for them. And so when a hundred percent of that search volume can be helpful, especially things like Mickey Mouse water bottle or licensing, it really helps to bring more customers into your listing.
Brett:
Yeah, and just curious, when did you start going down the licensing path? Was that fairly early or did that come much later?
Bryan :
It started pretty early on. We ended up having success adding more variety into our listings and we doubled down on that as much as we could until it just became ridiculous. And a part of that offering customers variety was with licensing. We started with a local license for the University of Oklahoma, which is where we live, and you can get local licenses, like local fan shops can do this a lot to be able to sell product from teams in their area. So we got that and we got a local license, we Oklahoma City Thunder, and we're able to leverage those local licenses basically into one. We leveraged into a Sam's Club deal, which this is something that Mike spearheaded and did an amazing job. We didn't have the licenses for most of college football or college sports, but got Sam's Club to commit to a PO that was across all the schools. So we leveraged the PO with Sam's Club to get the licenses. So essentially we didn't have anything but leveraged
Brett:
The PO first. That's brilliant. Takes away the risk completely, right? Yeah, almost.
Bryan :
So that's how we got our foot in the door. Ultimately it led to the NFL and Disney, which are the biggest ones and it's really hard to get in with Disney, but obviously it's really helpful, especially if you sell kits products. Yeah,
Brett:
Yeah, I love that. Looking at product differentiation, both as a way to drive conversion rate, but also just as a way to grab more traffic. Because you mentioned this in one of your posts, you guys are demand capture first, and that's sort of the thing of Amazon, it's search driven query-based traffic for the most part. Any things to point out there? Why did you guys choose demand capture type product versus something else?
Bryan :
So that goes back to our experience before simple modern, that e-commerce business that I was telling you about was very dependent on paying for customers and it was great until it wasn't. And our experience really is kind of like, I don't know, a scar that we carry with us that maybe to a fault, we do not want to be dependent at all on advertising and it was really kind of the one main strength of our previous company. And once that goes away, you are in trouble. So we built the business to be 100% organic, not dependent on Amazon ads, not on Facebook ads or meta, whatever. Our whole mantra is we want to be able to win when we're sitting on either a digital or physical shelf next to all of our competition, we're building a product that a customer is going to pick up instead of the other ones. So it's works to this point, although ironically we're trying to figure out how we can add on paid advertising now.
Brett:
And you guys did, now you did Amazon ads for a while, so it seems like I read a post about that, but it hasn't been a central part of your strategy.
Bryan :
So heading really, I guess the first five years of the business, we used Amazon ads as much as we could to grow the brand and it wasn't a dependency as much as an accelerant for us. Makes sense. And we spent about 8% of revenue on ads and we actually got to a point in 2020 where we weren't sure how helpful ads were. It felt like there wasn't fully a correlation between our ad spend and our top line revenue. Certainly there is some benefit, we just didn't think that we were getting all that Amazon says that we were getting. So we turned it off for four months just to see what would happen. And I could talk for a long time about this, I'll spare you from that. But we essentially learned that probably about half of the ad spend that we were doing was driving incremental traffic and the other half of it was just fat that was not providing value to the business.
Brett:
It goes back to that original John Wanamaker quote. Some people attribute it to PT Barnum, but he said, I believe that half my advertising is wasted. I just dunno which half. And that's kind of been a consistent feeling throughout the ages
Bryan :
And that is our experience. So we've trimmed down to about 4% of our revenue we spend on ads, so
Brett:
4% tacos
Bryan :
And we've tried to root out as much as we can the spend that is just lighting money on fire and it's led us to focus a lot on spending on competitor keywords, spending on keywords where we're just not as relevant or as strong with our product offerings or we do spend on branded search when someone searches for simple modern, I'm just not willing to run at lower than a 20 row ads to counteract the lack of incrementality that those sales tend to have.
Brett:
Yeah, it's super interesting. I think it is really necessary to run some branded ads, otherwise you are going to miss out on sales. And we talk about this a lot on the Google side, of course our agency focus on Google and YouTube also, but also Amazon. But on the Google side you can actually segment where you can say, Hey, I'm just going to bid on people that search for my brand name who've never bought from me before. So you can separate those out from say a repeat purchaser and that's kind of nice. But if you just disappear altogether, there's still a percentage of customers that they'll just click on whatever they see and they'll think that if I search simple modern, then what I'm seeing is simple, modern and they'll click on it without ever noticing and they'll buy something else because somebody else is going to, especially at your volume or your size, someone else is going to bid on your term, but if brand doesn't have a wildly successful ROAS or MER or ACOs or however you want to, whatever your metric of choice is, then something's wrong. You got to restructure if that thing's not just crushing it. But it's good to hear you say that because yeah, I think you are going to miss opportunities and especially those first customer opportunities. I think if it's a repeat customer they're probably going to find they're probably going to buy, but you may miss some first time customers if you don't do it.
Bryan :
Yeah, for sure. And with branded ads specifically, we've run a bunch of on off tests and Amazon has started to give us insights on market share and click share for different keywords. So we'll look for all of our branding keywords, how many clicks were we getting when we were running ads, how many clicks did Amazon ads say that it was generating? And then when we turn it off, it would make sense that you would lose the amount of clicks that Amazon ads is taking credit
Brett:
For that you were getting right.
Bryan :
But it turns out we don't. It's about
Brett:
Nice. Interesting. About
Bryan :
20% of the clicks that Amazon ads is attributing we see lost in our total clicks. So
Brett:
That kind of led you to the 20 roas so that math checks out. Yeah,
Bryan :
That's exactly how we got there. And our strategy of what we advertise on branded search is not our best stuff that's going to rank number one. We want to merchandise show customers things that they probably dunno we sell and that they probably won't click on. We love to do that or a new product launch. It's a way where we can try and get some juice to something new.
Brett:
Yeah, super insightful there. Kind of the merchandising component of it. You want to control the SERP and be able to show the products you want to show. So that's really, really smart. Let's talk about, this would be a good jumping off point to talk about building a brand and and I talked a little bit before we hit record. This is something we started as an agency, as a Google YouTube agency first. We've been doing Amazon since 2016, but because of our D two C background, a lot of our Amazon clients would come to us and say, Hey, how do we diversify? We're crushing on Amazon, how do we launch our Shopify store and sell direct to consumer? And it's really hard, most of the brands that we saw attempt to do that only had moderate success. Now we've seen a lot of people have success the other way, we worked with a native deodorant for a long time now p and g brand and still do their Google and YouTube, but they were D two C first and then went on Amazon and that crushed it.
Boom by Cindy Joseph, long time client, shout out to their Firestone, we managed their Google and YouTube and Amazon and we actually helped them launch on Amazon and took off, went from zero to 6 million in one year because they had that brand built off Amazon. But you guys have done something unique in that I can really only think of, I want to have a couple, you guys anchor where you started on Amazon, but you have a real brand. People look for you, they want to buy your product, people are creating tiktoks about your product, you've got a real following. It's a real thing. It's not just some white label product that somebody buys a lot of reviews and it's a cheap price. It's a brand. And so how have you guys done that? How have you built a brand on Amazon?
Bryan :
So this is something that's taken eight years to get to this point, which I think is definitely worth saying. It's been a lot of work to get this point and a lot of trying things that did not work to get to this point. I think that it has helped us D two C that we've been omnichannel. So we started in 2015 on Amazon. We've been selling in Target for, gosh, probably last five or six years and in Walmart and Sam's Club. So I think developing more of a exposure to customers where they see you on Amazon, they see you kind of browsing the aisles at a different retailer. I think that helps to have impressions in different places. But in terms of D two C, we tried for a long time to compete with our Amazon offering and tried to give customers the as good or better of pricing with shipping on our website. It just didn't work. There's no reason to do that.
Brett:
The math doesn't check out, right?
Bryan :
Just let 'em buy on Amazon or if you're
Brett:
Going to do that, yeah, they're going to buy on Amazon anyway. It's easier. All their information is there. It's one click to check out. Why compete with that.
Bryan :
That's right. And Amazon's built the best logistics distribution network for e-commerce and by far we cannot be as profitable.
Brett:
We'll touch that anytime soon.
Bryan :
Yeah, we're less profitable selling the same single item on our website with free shipping is on Amazon, so there's no reason to do that. So what we did was really try to understand the strengths of D two C and try to use those unique characteristics. And what we learned was that on D two C, you can have better economics than Amazon with higher A OV, you have to have a higher average order value putting things in the same box if you have one three PL or one warehouse and you gain a ton of efficiency from multiple unit orders. For us, I guess an example is it would cost us say $10 to ship one Tumblr to a customer, but it would cost us $12 to ship three tumblers to a customer. So your cost per unit just goes down a ton with every additional item. So you want to incentivize bigger carts. And we started off with bundling where we merchandise different things together that customers could add and get a discount better for both of us. Our catalog is thousands of SKUs now, and so what we've pivoted to is more of a in cart cart dollar size discount. You get $10 off at a hundred dollars cart size and so on. There's different tiers as you get bigger. And then we use upselling to try and do the merchandising component of bundling. So there's that component.
Brett:
So it's not so much just offering a bundle outright, but it's more upselling as someone is going through the checkout process,
Bryan :
Right? Yeah. We do it that way just to try and give more flexibility instead of buying these exact three skews together, it's like here are things that you'll probably add them with what you have in your carts and you'll get a better deal. So that's one component. Another is the email and SMS lists that you can grow on D two C are incredibly valuable and it's one of those that you just have to, it takes time, you have to grow it over time, but you're never going to have
Brett:
That usually, especially for a brand like yours where you're primarily on Amazon, the people that are on that email on SMS list, they're your super fans.
Bryan :
Yeah, exactly. And you cannot do that on Amazon. So now since we've diligently tried to grow these lists, whenever we try to drop things weekly is kind of our long-term goal of limited edition drops, but you can tell all of your best fans about it and as long as you're coming out with things that they probably want, we've seen that it goes very well at driving traffic for free to your website. And then the third thing is personalization. Obviously you can't build things like that onto Amazon or have that in Target, but you can give a really awesome unique experience with customers on your website to make it more of their own. So those are really the three levers that we've really doubled down on.
Brett:
It's really great and it makes so much sense why try to compete versus Amazon and competing with yourself on Amazon doesn't make sense, but what are the strengths of D two C? What might people want there? What might be the reason they would do that? And I think you nailed it. And so that's really, really great. And I love the personalization piece too because there's something about that one, people are willing to pay premium so you can build in nicer margins. Also people share it. I saw a TikTok with 800,000 likes or something. There's one you shared, I'm not on TikTok a whole lot, but of just the lady showing her a Tumblr that had her name on it and it blew up on TikTok. And so that's more likely stuff like that is more likely to happen with a personalized product or you get a little different variety there. So really, really smart. That's awesome. And
Bryan :
There's one other thing that I'd like to add in that I think is really interesting and it's kind of what we're doing this year to grow our D two C. If you shop in other product categories for printers, you'll see there's different price ranges of printers and as you go up, it's the same printer but it has better features. The same thing with cars. There's different tiers of cars and
Brett:
Chevy Cadillac or Toyota and Lexus. Is it kind of the same but a little bit nicer
Bryan :
Or even you could buy the standard option or the premier or whatever that just has different stuff inside or sunroof or no sunroof. And so as I mentioned, we've been very sharp on our value prop because we're an Amazon first brand or we started on Amazon, but that's hard on D two C where the best brands typically have high margins, maybe even like 80% plus margins where they can spend a ton on advertising. So we are bringing out offerings that we're calling our signature line for our website only. We're not going to offer it on Amazon. And it comes with really awesome features like ceramic lining on the inside that people like that. It doesn't taste like retain flavor, any of that unique lids that have better features. Silicone rings on the bottom, just kind of like add-ons where it allows us to make really awesome drinkware that's not going to necessarily do great on Amazon because it's not as sharp of a low price point, but for our fans, they are going to love it and we can also advertise it and use it as customer acquisition on Facebook. So we're trying to develop both a mass retail and a specialty retail type strategy within our website and maybe push our website more towards the specialty retail type product offering.
Brett:
Love that. It's really great. And we see this with shoes too. I'm a Nike fan and you can buy the basic Nike shoe at various retail outlets, but to buy the real specialty or special colors, you're paying two or three x, but you got to order online. So yeah, I think there's a real place for that, again, to cater to that customer that really wants that. And so super smart. Let's talk about building a brand on Amazon. And this is not a new thing per se, it's existed. If you walk into Walmart, you can buy Coca-Cola can buy lace potato chips, or you could buy great value stuff. So kind of the white label or the private label, whatever, the own brands. But you guys have done a really good job where people go to Amazon looking for simple, modern or they go to Google looking for simple modern. You've built a real brand there and I think that's possible to do that on Amazon, but it's difficult. So any keys to building a brand on Amazon?
Bryan :
I've got a few thoughts. I know that simple modern is in drinkware and it's contextual to this category and this moment in time. It's hard to say there's a one size fit all approach, but the way that we think about it is the way that we win at Amazon is we take a customer who's searching for a water bottle or a kid's water bottle or a Tumblr, we convert them and the next time they're looking for something drinkware, they're searching for us and not the generic search term. That is our goal. And if we're able to accomplish that goal, even if they're not going to our website, it's searching for our brand on Amazon, we don't have to engage in the knife fight that is like Amazon PPC, we've won the battle at that point. So that's a high level objective of ours and there's all sorts of different tactics to try and achieve that objective. There are some obvious things like whenever we first started, I viewed imagery on Amazon listings as a sales pitch, why the customer should buy your product, all the features and things like that, which isn't wrong, you should do that, but I missed at first that the quality of your images imputes quality onto your product.
Brett:
Totally.
Bryan :
So if you have just this amazing photography, a lot of times customers will make up their mind before they even get the product that this thing's awesome. And it kind of develops that narrative in their mind that I just bought an awesome product and when they open it, it's like what they saw, then there's a good
Brett:
Chance, as long as you don't do anything to diminish that, they're going to have those same feelings once they open it. Yeah, really, really great insight.
Bryan :
So you want to create an experience with your customers that kind of maybe prepares them to use the products in a favorable way. Another one's packaging like unboxing experience. It kind of sets the expectations. If it's very high quality packaging, it signals to the customer that the product in it is also really high quality.
Brett:
It's kind of that second moment of truth. I think Proctor and Gamble may have said this first, I got the first moment of truth, which is kind of the experience on the shelf or in this case the digital shelf. How are you interacting and seeing it? The things you just described. But then when you open it and unbox it, that's kind of the second moment of truth. You can either really establish the brand or you could diminish it a little bit. And you guys do a great job with the product packaging, by the
Bryan :
Way. I appreciate that. We've tried, we've tried our best to create that type of an experience. And almost everyone has unboxed like an Apple product and they do the same thing. It's like next level, you don't want to throw their boxes away, so on.
Brett:
Yep, yep. So
Bryan :
True. So that's a big component. Ultimately we are our products, brands are their products. So being obsessive about rooting out any negative feedback that you see about your product and reviews is vital to creating a high net promoter score and getting repeat customers. Now, I would say one other thing that's a little bit more tricky on that front is that you could have products that aren't a great experience, but you wouldn't necessarily see that in the reviews. You could see it maybe in the return rate. An example is we used to sell, we have the bestselling taller backpack on Amazon and we had a 12 liter size and a seven liter size. The 12 liter size is the most common. It fits like three and four year olds, seven liters, really small. It fits like two year olds. So there is a purpose for it and it was a good product.
But the problem was whenever we sold out of the 12 liter, customers would just buy the seven liter because it was in stock and they wanted that pattern that was on it and they would get it and it'd just be like, this is way too small and I'm going to return it. It creates a negative experience, probably a customer that's not coming back and it's really expensive for us. Totally. They're not going to leave a review because it's not a bad product. But we actually discontinued that seven liter size even though it was a pretty good seller, but the return rate was just too high and it wasn't creating that customer
Brett:
Experience and nothing kills margin faster than a high return rate. So yeah, super smart.
Bryan :
Yeah, absolutely.
Brett:
So let's talk about one thing that I thought was super interesting as an agency and we're working with smaller brands typically, or those that are so rapidly growing, much more likely that they're three p selling through the third party marketplace. But you guys transition to being a one P seller on Amazon. Any insights as to why you did that and then from your perspective, when could or should someone consider making that switch?
Bryan :
So yeah, this is a great
Brett:
Question. I know this could be like we could probably talk an hour about this topic and we had a few minutes.
Bryan :
Yeah, yeah. No, it's a great question. I have talked to vendors who are sick of being one P and just want to get back to the marketplace. And I've talked to people in the marketplace who are like, should we make the jump? Should we not? Grass
Brett:
Is always greener,
Bryan :
The grass is greener, haven't loved the marketplace, is one P better? So my advice for my generic advice would be that if you can have leverage with Amazon, then being a vendor is great because you have Amazon's attention being a vendor, you need Amazon to help you do things that you could just do yourself in the marketplace. Variating different SKUs together into one listing or whatever. Changing content. If you're a vendor and you don't have Amazon's attention, sometimes you just get stuck and it's just terrible. No one's helping you and you have things broken. But we're fortunate to last year we grew, gosh, about 50% on Amazon. It's
Brett:
Amazing. It's amazing your volume to grow that percentage rate. That's unreal.
Bryan :
So we have their attention and they care about us. And so it's good. It's good right now. And my goal is to continue that growth rate and to be worth their time.
Brett:
So it's got to be a volume component and then also probably a growth rate component. Otherwise you may just be better controlling your own destiny as a seller as opposed to a vendor
Bryan :
For sure. And we ended up making the jump to being a vendor, sadly, the week the pandemic started, which was a whole story in itself. Oh my
Brett:
Goodness,
Bryan :
Not a great time to totally transition the most important part of your business. But the reason why we did it is we were getting to a size, we did I think maybe 70 million in retail in the marketplace whenever we decided to make the jump. And we were looking at what are the kill shots to our business? And one of them is like, what if Amazon turns your account off and you can't get it back? It's unlikely, but that is kind of a kill shot. That was a factor. We craved really deeply a partnership with Amazon. We felt like we were doing enough business with Amazon that
Brett:
You would warrant
Bryan :
That we shouldn't be left up to whatever rep we pay for and then just people overseas to run our business. We want to be partnered with them. And you are as a vendor. It's more like a relationship with Target or Walmart where you have a buyer who's helping to facilitate your account, and then you also have a rep that works with you and your buyer and there's more access to teams within Amazon, whether it's the in stock team or compliance team or whatever it may be. So the other component to our transition is that we were really starting to scale up in Target as well, which is retail. And Amazon retail wanted us to be a retail partner because they were noticing there's data that is published whenever you're in places like Target where everyone can see they can pay for your sales data. And so Amazon was aware of our growing business within Target and Walmart and wanted us to be a vendor with them as well. And on that note, I think it actually has been a really helpful thing for us to become a vendor. And once you're an Amazon vendor, your data starts showing up in the mass retail data that everyone sees from Walmart to Target, and it just helps those other retailers understand how big of a business you are. They don't see that your sales when you're in the marketplace.
Brett:
Right, right. Interesting. Yeah, so once you get to a certain size and you want to get into more brick and mortar retail, then being vendor on Amazon that can help make that
Bryan :
Case for those retailers. And I think the year that we jumped from the marketplace to being a vendor, we were already kind of on the radar with our target sales, but it looked like our growth just exploded in 2020 just because they could now see our Amazon sales from being a vendor. So all of a sudden Costco starts calling and Whole Foods and places like that.
Brett:
That is awesome. Well, Bryan, we have just about run out of time and I'm a little bit bummed because I've got five other questions I want to ask you, but we covered a lot of ground. This is super helpful, really insightful, keep doing what you guys are doing. I'm going to keep paying attention. You're one of the brands that I watch closely. But as we wrap up, anything new that people should check out, anything you want to plug or mention a passion project or a new product release or anything that you want people to do? Obviously they can go shop on Amazon or at your D two C, a lot of retail stores, but any asks or passion projects?
Bryan :
Well, for better or worse, I think my passion project intersects directly with what I do, 40 hours, 40 plus hours a week. So yeah, I would say for anyone listening, we simple modern has gotten to a point where we're about the fourth biggest drinkware brand in the us It's crazy. And we're privately owned, we aren't focused on profits. We want to scale this up to be as big as we can make it. So yeah, I would say just follow, keep up with what we're doing. We're going to, for better or worse, do things that are interesting and continue to try and scale this thing as big as we can make it. So our plan is to try and get to the top of the category if at all possible. So I would say stay tuned.
Brett:
Love it, man. Love it. And yeah, I'm enjoying Tasty Beverage out of the, this is the Kona, I believe. That's right. And I realized that I always like black. Oh, there you go. I just like simple colors for my drinkware. I probably should have got one of the wild and crazy colors just because you guys do that. Also, I probably need to get Kansas City Chiefs mugs since I just won the Super Bowl and I'm a longtime cheese fan, but keep creating great products. Super, super fun. So Bryan Porter, ladies and gentlemen, Bryan, thanks for the time, man. Super, super fun.
Bryan :
Yep, I enjoyed it. Thanks for having me on.
Brett:
Absolutely. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We'd love to hear from you. What would you like to hear more of on the show? If you've not done it, please leave that review on iTunes. Go buy a simple, modern mug as well. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.
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