I love Arrae as a brand and as a group of products.

I also think Nish Samantray is one of the brightest up-and-coming eCommerce founders in the game right now.

Arrae is unique because it’s a supplement brand that combines natural ingredients with amazing packaging and design. Their supplements are designed to work in under an hour. So their bloat pill allows you to eat pizza and not feel terrible afterward. And the jars are a work of art. So are the labels. It’s truly a product you would love to see in your medicine cabinet or sitting on the counter.

Nish and the team are doing a LOT right in creating Arrae’s meteoric growth.

Here are a few things we discuss in today’s episode:

• Why asking what customers want next is a terrible question and what to ask instead.
• How to think about in-store growth.
• When everything gets more challenging, how do you get better
• Influencer marketing with events and thinking more like a mom who loves to host neighbor kids.
• Nish’s favorite books and resources for growth
• Plus more!

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Mentioned in This Episode:

OMG Commerce Resource Guides‍

Nish Samantray

- LinkedIn

- Twitter‍

- Instagram ‍

‍

Arrae

- Website

- Instagram

- Twitter ‍

‍

Native Deodorant‍

Moiz Ali‍

Erewhon Market‍

Smart Marketer Podcast‍

Triple Whale‍

“Blitzscaling” by Reid Hoffman‍

Masters of Scale podcast by Reid Hoffman‍

“Building a StoryBrand” by Donald Miller‍

“$100M Offers” by Alex Hormozi

Transcript:

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the eCommerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce. And today is gonna be a how I done it episode, uh, to use proper grammar there. But we, we are gonna look at a founder story. We're gonna look at an up and coming D TOC brand, a brand that's near and dear to my heart cuz we get to work with this guy on a daily basis. And he's awesome and his brand is amazing.

Are you a D TOC brand spending over six figures a month on paid media? If so, then listen up. My agency, OMG Commerce and I have worked with some of the top eCommerce brands over the years, including Boom, native Groove, moan, Gify, and dozens more. And every year we audit hundreds of Google, YouTube, and Amazon ad accounts and we always find either significant opportunities for growth or wasted ad spend to cut or both. For example, are you missing YouTube ads? Whatever you're spending on top of funnel Facebook, you should be able to spend 30 to 50% of that or more on YouTube with similar returns. So if you're spending 300 to 400,000 a month on Facebook, you should be able to easily spend a hundred to 150,000 or more on YouTube. Visit OMG commerce.com to request a free strategy session or visit our resource page and get some of our free guides loaded with some of our best strategies for YouTube ads, Google Shopping, Amazon DSP and more. Check it all out@omgcommerce.com. I am delighted to introduce N sere to the call founder, uh, co-founder of Array and you'll hear all about array as we go. And so with that Nish, how you doing man? Welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time to do this.

Nish:

Oh, thank you Brett. I'm so excited to be here. But one thing I wanna say is when I first met you, and I've only met you once in person, I knew you were a big guy, but you were a really big guy. That was just one thing that really stood out to me. I was like, Holy shit Fred, why are you so

Brett:

Massive? No, define defined big. You mean like tall and chiseled or do you mean like, Dude, you better go on a diet? Uh,

Nish:

No comment part <laugh>. Oh, that's

Brett:

Awesome. Yeah, it so funny. We were actually just talking about basketball. You and I were offline a minute ago, so there's this guy in my hometown, another business guy, love him. He's like just one of those super honest guys. So we, we played a game one time and afterwards he's like, Brett, you're really good. Uh, you know, if you dropped about 20 pounds you'd be really good. And I'm like, Okay, <laugh>. That was the most unique compliment that I've gotten and sometimes, so, uh, I did actually lose 20 pounds after that, so that was good. So he inspired you

Nish:

Look great Brett, you look great. You're, you're a a big bone chiseled man is what you're <laugh>.

Brett:

Okay. That that is fantastic. So yeah, we, but we recently got to hang out in la which is where you are. We had breakfast at a phenomenal place close to lax and I'm pretty sure we saw Terry Cruz, uh, also having breakfast there, which is a pretty crazy story. Yeah,

Nish:

He did, He just walked in and by the way, this is like the random little spot close to the airport and he just happened to have breakfast. Yeah, LA is weird like that.

Brett:

LA is the place to be. I don't know that by LAX is what I would recommend, but you had to do it for my schedule, which I really, really appreciate. So, uh, let's dive in. I'm so excited to, for the peeps to hear about array and all that you've got going on. Cause lots of lessons here, but let's rewind a little bit. So pre array, what did you do and and how did you get into to e-commerce?

Nish:

That's funny. So I am a mechanical engineer who became a software developer who became a product manager and then kind of worked my way around to becoming an e-commerce founder. Essentially my whole thing, my whole life was that I was really good at math and so I just took very mathematically inclined roles, kind of worked that in school and even did that in in jobs. And so my whole life I was okay, I I like math, I'm gonna go ahead and try to learn how to code cuz it didn't like mechanical engineering coding was really fun. I used to work in the tech technology industry and I worked for some really amazing companies. I worked for software development teams at, at banks in Canada. Um, then I also went and worked at some of the largest like fin tech companies in India and Japan. So there was a time in my life where I was going to India once a month for a company called Paytm.

And that was the probably the best experience of my life because this is where I learned how to build a business that this company went from zero to, it's a $20 billion company. Plus now they also iPod and they have the biggest IPO in India. And so this was really cool experience for me cause I was sitting right next to the founders and CEOs and I was like, Wow, this is how you really build a company. And so after this I was like, okay, I feel really well equipped to start a company. By the way, just to give you a little bit more context, I had started a technology company before starting Array, which was doing fairly well. It was just that when I was working on this, I was so busy working on it and my wife s was working on our own thing and I was like, Damn, if we don't work on something together, we're not gonna be together. And so we just said <laugh>. Yeah. And

Brett:

So we said smart man, prioritizing the most important relationship in your life above anything else. But, uh, I, I see you guys on social media, first of all. You're like super cute together and I tell you fun together. Uh, but yeah. So you guys decided to go all in on a business together?

Nish:

We did. We absolutely did. And I just said, Okay, siv, you come up with the idea and I I will, I will help build whatever you think is right. And so this is kind of how the story of array started where basically the two of us are super polar opposite people. Like I am your very nerdy engineer and she's like the coolest person on Instagram with like 60,000 followers really into fashion. Really cool people love looking and following and you know, liking your stories and all this kind of stuff. But essentially she suffered from a, uh, a fractured rib from a chronic cough and one that happened. The idea was, okay, this is insane. And the doctor prescribed her coding. And so she was like, there's gotta be a better way to take care of herself from a preventative way and just like live a very healthy holistic lifestyle. And for me, I didn't even know what all of that meant. I was just working in tech and it inherently a very stressful environment. But over time I was like, wow, this is amazing to be able to take care of yourself. And so first of all, it started in the world of skincare because you know, she was in the beauty world and I used to be stealing all of her skincare and I was a man with an eight step skincare routine. But after that,

Brett:

A way, way, way to do that proudly. Proudly. Why not? Do you have to ask too? Just just while we have just a quick break here. So you're into math. I I've, I always enjoyed math in school, but I was like just, you know, pretty good at math. You strike me as one. Were you, were you a math athlete? Were you ever on like the math teams and stuff?

Nish:

Yeah, I was, I was,

Brett:

I know a few of my friends are math athletes or former math athletes I should say. Uh, what, what a what an honor, what a cool thing. Yeah, for sure.

Nish:

Yeah. I, uh, keep going, keep going.

Brett:

No, no, no. Uh, yes. But you don't have to be a math athlete to be successful at eCommerce. And that's a good thing for the rest of us. Uh, so anyway, so you guys were doing, you were doing skincare, you had the same step routine, your skin looks great by the way. Um, so it started skincare and then where'd you go from there?

Nish:

We started skincare. And so essentially the idea was that, okay, skincare is obviously progressed a lot in the last 10 years. You look at skincare and it's like, wow, this, this industry's one where everything you're using is first of all really efficacious. It actually works. You know exactly what you're using your products for. And so you can like solve very specific problems on your skin by using a very specific product. Second, all the products are built by doctors or dermatologists with a lot of credibility, a lot of scientific background. So it just really made sense and worked. And last thing was, it was an extremely beautified process. So the, the, the concept and the behavior of buying skincare, especially for women, is such a beautiful, nice experience. The packaging is amazing. The ideology of buying good skincare is so cool. Uh, people respect when you have a six step skin care routine.

That whole idea was really, really fascinating. And in the wellness world, that wasn't the case. We're still, and even today we are still have medicine cabinets that look like, you know, just a bunch of white bottles and you don't even know what it is that you're taking. And so our idea was that, okay, first of all, we can solve certain problems using natural ingredients that that work in under an hour. That's kind of our philosophy. We create a hundred percent natural ingredients that work in under an hour and that is the only thing we're gonna do. Cause we want you to take our supplements and feel the effects in under an hour. Cause that was the idea behind it. And then also we said, well, it's also back it up with a lot of doctors and naturo bag doctors and medical doctors who can actually come and help us with the formulation process. So you know that what you're taking is gonna work. And the last thing is just make it all really beautiful so that you don't have to hide it in your closet. It looks really good on your bedside table.

Brett:

Yeah, it's such a, such an interesting thing. You know, so many companies that are in the supplement space or health and wellness, they don't think about truly building a brand and they don't think about that experience. And so, uh, I want you to talk about kind of your, your core products in a minute. But, but I've purchased both your, your bloat capsules. So pills you take after you eat to reduce bloating. And uh, one of my favorite lines comes from one of your customers, uh, who said, I refuse to choose between eating pizza and feeling good so I can eat pizza and then take the blow pills. And I feel great. Uh, the product is fantastic by the way, but, but thank you even more than that. The, the, the canister that's, I'm sure that's the wrong word. The, the what, what is contained in jar there?

Jar? Yeah, that's, I dunno why that word escaping <laugh>, but a glass jar, nice little lid on it. The the, the label feels pre you hold it in your hand and it feels premium and, and it, it works. And so it's great. You also have the, uh, product called Calm, which is, which is also great. I've taken that, you know, I'm pretty high stress most of the time going all the time. Either, either dealing with eight kids at home or running a business or whatnot. So calm is a good product for me for sure. So, so yeah. So you combined natural ingredients of working under an hour, Love that, uh, with beautiful branding, beautiful packaging, and it, it just, it adds to the experience, right? Which, which is, which is really unique. I don't know really any other brand that's focusing on both like that, like you guys are.

Nish:

Yeah, I mean it seems just really obvious. I think when you're using a product, you want to feel good about using the product also, especially in our world. And what I mean by our world, I mean, prob like problem areas of your body, these things tend to be pretty stigmatized. For example, bloating, constipation, diarrhea, like all these words are not exactly sexy words to talk about, right? <laugh>. But exactly the, the thing is that we all actually suffer from these kind of problems. And so the whole thing is that, okay, we know we suffer from them. Why don't we just make the experience of dealing with them very, very human and something that is actually really pleasant. That's the entire idea behind it. And so we put in so much care into the labeling and like the type of label that we use. And then also when you put the label on, like we put it on at a very specific speed so that it's perfectly parallel. Other, you'll see the labels are actually like, you know, a little bit like upside down some sometimes and whatnot. And so all these little details you pay attention to cuz it just makes that experience so much better. And then you feel proud about the product you're taking. It is, it's a no-brainer.

Brett:

Yeah. You, you feel good about it sitting out on the counter. And, and I, I do recommend everybody check out the site. We will mention it a few times I'm sure, but it's array.com, A r r a e.com and you'll see it. And actually there's some parallels here. Do you know the brand Tushy? Are you familiar with Tushy? Of course. Yeah. So Love Mickey. Uh, go back and listen to the episode where I interviewed Mickey. She's built several brands from scratch, including thinks, which is period proof, uh, underwear. And then Tushi, which is a Bday company, and she talks about being artful and fridge worthy, even for stuff that's a little hard to talk about, like a Bday, right? But there, there's actually some similarities in the way and, and you guys are unique brands, but um, you know, you look at the Toshi side and you're like, this is fun to shop and this looks beautiful, right? And uh, and I feel the same way about about Array as well, which is awesome.

Nish:

So yeah, it's, it's really cool. They, uh, Tushi also has a, uh, comedian match ranks their copy. Like that's how much they've invested in in their kind of brand and ecosystem. So it's, yeah, it's really cool.

Brett:

Yeah, that, that's one of their, one of the things they do, like, they'll write a video script and then they'll bring in comedians to make it, to make it funny and to, to bring something, uh, to life a little bit. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's just a super, super fun brand for sure. So, uh, let's dive in a little bit. Let's talk about the ideation phase. And, and this will be important I think for, for a few reasons. One, there could be people listening that are just getting started and they're in the ideation phase, but I think there's also a lot of people listening to this podcast, cause I get to talk to you guys at events and stuff where you've got a successful business, but you're looking for that next product. You're looking for line extension, you're looking to grow to the next thing. And so that ideation phase never goes away, right? Something you always do as a successful brand. So what was that ideation phase like? Where did you get stuck and how'd you get unstuck?

Nish:

For sure. So I think that there's two major components to this. Number one is I think in this world, building a good product matters more than anything else. I think that right now, the reason why we are still able to continue to acquire new customers, even in a very difficult e-commerce environment is because our product is really good. It works really well. And in this sense it's all because of the r and d that goes into it. So, for example, for us, it took us about a year and a half just to finalize the formulation of a product. So every single one of our products takes about 18 months to bring to a customer from ideation. And that's including your manufacturing time, that's including your, um, kind of, um, r and d time, your, your testing with the customers and whatnot, all of this. So basically first what we do is say, Okay, we have an idea of what the customer wants and we have, we think we know what the ways that people can use our products in, in, in different ways.

Let's go and first validate that. So the first thing is we go and talk to a bunch of different customers, either in our community, we actually try to avoid speaking to friends. It's just way too biased. But we just kind of hit as many people with, uh, who, who don't know us with, with questions that will give us non-leading answers. So, by the way, one thing I learn, Brad, which is super interesting, is we don't go and ask customers, Hey, what's the product you want? We actually go and say, But we are coming with a new product. What do you think it is? That little tweak in that sentence makes them tell you what they, what they think is coming, which is what they actually want. But when you ask them what they want, they don't, they don't know what they want. They give you, they give you answers that are like way too biased. They're just, they're just like, they're like, Oh, I don't really know. But when you guess it, they don't, That's a really interesting copy tweak that really helps. That

Brett:

Is a really interesting twist. Yeah, because I think sometimes when you ask someone what is it that you want, the first place that people go is like, What do you expect me to say? Or what makes me sound smart? Or what makes me sound not like a selfish jerk or, or whatever. Like they, they, they think more about what I should be saying rather than what I actually want, which is hard to, to put their, uh, their finger on. But yeah, that's, that's a really interesting twist. So you use that question in person, asking people in person, or you're doing like well

Nish:

Even email, email service,

Brett:

Email stuff. Yeah,

Nish:

Yeah, yeah. Got it. So like, even when we need actual like, product feedback or we want to know that we don't say that. We said, Hey, we're coming with a product in the next six months, Tell us what you, what, what you think it is. And then we actually take those and then start ideating off of those even though there's no product coming out in six months. Well there is, Well

Brett:

There will be. You just dunno. It will be Exactly,

Nish:

Exactly. It's gonna happen.

Brett:

So, so is that how, okay, so you've got, you've got three core products right now, right? You've got, you got Bloat, you've got Calm and then Sleep Alchemy, which is brand new, right? Just, just came out close to the time of this recording. So is that how you got the idea for Sleep Alchemy was by asking that, that, those questions?

Nish:

Yeah. So well, okay, so sleep we knew before, but all the other ones we do, we are doing this exact method. And the, the idea behind our, the way that we can navigate these different products is just that okay, we think that we can solve certain problems in certain ways that you can actually feel the effective. So those are the products that we are ideating and coming up with the most, but then there's a lot of other problems that actually we get from the customers. I actually don't think if you're in a very innovative space and you're, you're trying to create something a little bit new, I don't think asking customers what they're looking for should inform your decision making. I think this is where you have to be a little bit more of a entrepreneur visionary kind of thing. And I say that in quotes because you just have to have a vision for what you think the world is gonna look like, um, you know, even a year or two years from now. And then you gotta create products for them that they may not know that they want. Like for example, our broad product is by no means a, you know, revolutionary product, but it is truly revolutionary in the way that we have formulated it is revolutionary in the way that we market it. It's very revolutionary in the way that it solves a very specific problem. Like if you go into the market, there was not many products called Bloat. There was actually not no products called bloat. So I think that that mindset is pretty helpful.

Brett:

Yeah, that's that's so good. So good. And I, and yeah, I love that that takeaway alone of, you know, don't ask customers what they want, Ask them other questions that will uncover what they want. Uh, super, super smart. So, uh, what, what else do you feel like you did really well, uh, either in the very beginning or more recently? Like what, what's been some of the keys to your success?

Nish:

So I am Indian and so because of being Indian, we love being super, super scrappy. It is in our blood to be super scrappy. And so the, at the very beginning, so we, like, I used to work obviously in tech, so I was making a lot of money. And so I used to pour everything that I got for my salary into the business. And we didn't even think of raising money. We didn't think of anything except for how do we use this capital as efficiently as possible. And so every little thing we did was just completely boots tracked. We, we, uh, tried to get manufacturers with low MOQs. We went and drove to different places in Canada to find the manufacturers that worked for us. We went and worked with a doctor that we really incentivized to work for in the long run instead of, you know, giving up a lot of money as an example. We, we were just so scrappy in every brel way bread.

Brett:

Mm. I love that. I love that. And what, what's really interesting to me, but been looking at this and, and then different research around this that, uh, really constraints drive creativity and problem solving. So sometimes when you have all the money in the world or, or what feels like an abundance of money, or when you feel like you got all the time you need or whatever, you often don't come up with good solutions, right? But when you're, when you have that scrappy mindset or you have real constraints, or you just create constraints for yourself, often you come up with better solutions and, and, and bigger wins, uh, that, that lead to better outcomes. So that's, that's fantastic. Yeah. Uh, so who's kind of the brains behind the branding here? Is that, is that you or is that si or is it a combination?

Nish:

Si is definitely the brains behind the branding. She's a reason why the company is as cool as this is. I think we are both the brains behind the product and the strategy behind that. But she handles all the branding and marketing. If it was me, this would look like the worst product in the world. So it's definitely all her <laugh>

Brett:

Look like a, like an IT manual or something like that.

Nish:

Absolutely.

Brett:

So, so way to go sift. Good job. Love the branding way to make way to make this product cool. Um, so I wanted, I wanna shift gears a little bit. So, so back when we were having our breakfast with Terry Cruz, I'm just kidding. He was, he was, Terry Cruz was not interested in us. I don't know why. I think if he had known his loss, we were how smart we were. He, he would've just pulled up a chair and and learned a hundred

Nish:

Hundred percent.

Brett:

Uh, uh, but when we were having breakfast, you were talking about influencer marketing, right? And you're, you are in LA but you guys also do some stuff in New York and other places. But talk a little bit about, talk about influencer marketing and talk about events. Cause I think you guys are doing some unique stuff there

Nish:

For sure. So this is actually a really big play for us, and I think that people underestimate the effect, the compounding effect. This has over time for us. We've actually always had a small portion of the budget that's a fixed budget that we put towards branding through influencers and through events. And we use it in a very specific way. So when you're doing events, it is very oriented towards building a community. And when I describe community, I say that when my friends came over to my house when I was really young, my mom used to feed everybody mm-hmm. <affirmative>, all of my friends would be like, Oh my God, this is such a fun time. I'm gonna keep coming back to Nisha's house because this is where we feast, this is where they take, this is where Nisha's mom takes care of all of us, and we just have a really good time.

So for me, when I think of community, I think of a host that is trying to create a really good time for either our customers or other influencers where they get to build valuable relationships with each other. And I am the host of that dinner party, as an example. And so when we build events, this is what we're trying to do. We're trying to build a community where people get a lot of value from meeting other really cool people. And we are simply facilitating that kind of environment and as a byproduct that not only are do we get a lot of exposure and a lot of, um, hype and a lot of people just loving your brands, people actually lead those events being like, Oh my God, I just found a really, really good friend. And so we host these events with not only our customers, but we also host them with, um, influencers, whether they're micro influencers or macro influencers.

We, we have, uh, events for, you know, every stage of different types of influencers. And what we see there is a lot of organic social growth because people just like what you're doing. So one of the things in today's world is that when you're working with influencers, first of all, most influencers say, Okay, x like X and number of dollars and I'll give you y That's the way it's, it is kind of transactional and people can just totally read through the fakeness of what is happening. For us, we're like, we will only invite people who actually like the brand and like the product. And we only invite people who will talk about us because they actually like what we are doing and they actually resonate with a problem trying to solve. So this kind of way of introducing a brand to someone, or because they've been following us on social media and they've been talking about us and we like the content that they're putting out, just using these events as a place where we can amplify that relationship has been working really well for us.

And now as we grow the brand, we are doing it on a bigger and bigger level. So as an example, the biggest one we ever did was just last month when we launched our sleep capsules and we had some of the top influencers who were huge brand fans and we rented out a portion of a hotel in, uh, in, in, uh, um, Santa Barbara. And it was this beautiful hotel overlooking the ocean. Um, and we all had a really amazing dinner there to kind of have people have a sleepover. So they came up, they had a sleepover, we gave them all of our sleep products, we call it a sleepover, it would be a race

Brett:

Food totally ties into the branding, but also ties into the vibe. Like, and I, I love this picture of yeah, you, your house was the house to hang out at when you were a kid because your mom cooked and because everybody wanted to be there and they were welcome. And so I really like that idea that that idea of host facilitator, you're cultivating these relationships. Okay, awesome. So you had a sleepover in Santa Barbara overlooking the ocean. Uh, continue. Sounds awesome. I wish I could. So that

Nish:

Was, you should have been, It was really amazing. So that was amazing. And like, look for me, like when I'm again like said numbers guy, I'm looking at the pnl, I'm like, holy shit. Like look at this line item. This is crazy. But the crazy thing is, Brett, we grew 50% last month, month over month, 50% growth. It took care of the cost threefold because of how successful these types of events are. Yeah. And it took care

Brett:

50% year over year growth, 50% month over month growth, which is staggering. And it's been awesome. It's awesome to watch that this close up. So Yeah,

Nish:

For sure. And it didn't come, you know, it didn't come like on the day of the event as an example, it just came because we are building that over time. Like we do that again and again and again. And it just, it shows up over time. So it, it really works. Events really, really works.

Brett:

Yeah. And I love that because you know, there, there's all kinds of transactional relationships out there, all kinds of other brands that just have, uh, uh, you do this, I'll do this for you, type relationship with their influencers. But when you can be really authentic and actually have this, you know, be known as a, a host and as a, uh, facilitator, cultivator of great relationships and people attend that and they just really like you and then they like, and they like your product and they like being part of it, that creates a deeper connection. And, and you'll get better results too from your influencers, which is, which is super cool. So then how did you, any other, So I think that's a really unique thing that probably most people are missing. I'm assuming you're doing a lot of the same, the standard things as well, like giving your influencers resources, giving them tools, helping them promote things like that. And any, any other tips or suggestions for better influencer marketing?

Nish:

For sure. When it comes to influencers, I think one of the main things is that you gotta know and have someone on the team or maybe should be yourself, Like for example for me is sif is so in touch with who the influencers are, who is up and coming and just the people who are really growing or who are so in touch with your type of consumer. And so having someone, it is honestly more of an art than a science. Finding influencers is, is really an art. And so you gotta have people who have that inherent feeling to be able to do that. And so when you, once you have that, your job is to get in touch with them by either gifting them or, you know, creating different environments for them to be able to be exposed to your brand. That is really the, the influencer and, um, department's kind of job.

And so, so for example, I'll give you an, I'll give you an example of, uh, one of her friends who did this, one of her friends actually bought like this crazy expensive, uh, designer bag, I think it was, I think it was Louiston or something. And they bought that, they filled it up with their products and gave it to one of the biggest influencers in the world. Okay. They just dropped it off at their door and there was no, cuz you know, know these influencers are so hard to get in touch with. And so then the influencer opened up the bag was like, Wow, this is insane. And then she started posting about this, this brand and the brand is making, it's a positive ROI kind of thing. And it's, it's very kind of balls you think, but this is the way you get in touch or kind of find the people that you really think could, you know, move the needle on your brand.

So the first thing is find, be in touch with people, uh, or have, have a touch on the, the influence that are up and coming or could really make the move the needle. The second thing is give with zero expectation in return. For us, from day one, we literally gave products and we were just like, we actually don't care if you post about us. We just want you to try your product cuz we really think we're solving a real, real problem here. And if you try our product, you're gonna love it so much, you might just become a customer. And that was truly where we came from at the heart. But we do not care about if they posted or anything monetary. We just did not care. And even to date, we don't even to date when we go to influencers and ask them to do something for us, even in a paid partnership, we are like, do whatever you want. We are not gonna review your work. You have full autonomy. We don't, we don't have any strict rules. But you know, like if you look at any other brand, like even bigger brands, they're like, okay, we have a three step review process and then by the third step, the influencers like, not even who they are, they're like this different person,

Brett:

Right? Right. And then it doesn't feel authentic and, and the audience doesn't buy it fully or it just doesn't feel right. But I, I love that. So giving was zero expectation in return because, and, and that's, that's gutsy, that's risky. You gotta believe in your product and believe in that you've, you're talking to the right people and it really makes a lot of sense to have someone on your team who can kind of judge that it factor whether an influencer has that it factor that, that ring of authenticity and are they on the come up and all all these things. Uh, so yeah, that, that's great. So given without expectation, um, any, any other thoughts, any other tips on, on influencer marketing?

Nish:

I think that apart from that you have to be really, uh, strategic nowadays about the way you spend money on influencers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think that the overall market of, of, uh, influencer kind of, uh, pays is really, really inflated. And so it is extremely rare to find influencers who are actually ROI positive and think, I think there's a, there's a certain group at a very high level, we call 'em the whales who are really good at promoting your brand. They have millions of followers or hundreds of thousands of followers and they can probably break even or be ROI positive. And it's also really good to be associated with them from a brand perspective. And you know, those whales are not, not reducing their price, they're sticking where they are, but then as a byproduct, all of the other influencers who are also up and coming have increased their prices.

And so I think that what you have to do is you have to know who you're gonna spend on from a brand perspective and who are you gonna spend on from a ROI perspective. And just be super clear about that and just be like, okay, you know what if, if this influencers is not gonna bring me money, is she gonna be helpful for me for brand? Okay, I'm gonna justify this as a brand cause if not, I'm not gonna spend the money at all. Because it's really easy to overspend on influencers and see zero returns at the same time. You have to experiment to see if someone's gonna work or not. So it's a very like, fine balance, but uh, don't go overspending at the same time. Just, just be mindful of the way you spend on them.

Brett:

Love that so much. Really, really good advice. So, uh, what, what else are you excited about right now, Nish, in terms of growth for the brand? Uh, I want, I wanna talk about some in-store stuff and just a minute retail distribution in just a minute, but, but anything else more on the online d toc or just online world? What, what's he excited about as far as growth?

Nish:

Well, honestly I think that right now, just cuz where we're at, I think you have to be so nitpicky in every part of the business. And so, you know, before back in the day it would say, Okay, this is do ads, ads, ads. So I spent the first four months of this year just like figuring out our ad strategy across all platforms, making sure we have the right creatives, making sure with the right buyers, making sure we have the right strategy. Um, and team to be able to execute on that, given how difficult it is to grow ads right now. But totally I just think that like, look, this is just one portion of it. You gotta put an equal amount of effort into your cro, which is actually a completely different part of that, that kind of funnel. And it's a, it's a equally important part. And so now I'm just like, okay, building a team around how to go and really optimize the shit out of your landing pages, your website, every single part of the business, you know? Yeah.

Brett:

Cuz sometimes you don't actually have a traffic problem or a quality of ad problem. Somebody's got a CRO problem. Sometimes your, your land in your site just aren't converting enough. So yeah, we, we were talking about this a little bit offline that right now due due to just the crazy environment and who knows what's going on exactly with consumer confidence and the economy and all that. And you know, things are always gonna be uncertain to a, to a certain degree. You gotta be really good, really good at every area, traffic, paid ads, cro, branding, influencer, you gotta be good at all of it. Right. Um, which, which is, which is really cool. Uh, and also overwhelming, but hey, it's overwhelming for your competitors too. So if you can figure it out, it gives you an edge. Cool. Anything else you're excited about right now online?

Nish:

Um, I think that those two things are really cool and, and the last thing is just I'm, I'm really excited about the fact that you can, you have to now go figure out different ways to grow that are not digital digitally native. So yeah, I am, I'm getting really excited about things like sampling, like, like in like physical sampling your products, you know, like that's been something that we just got back after Covid. And you can go and have people try your products out and, and obviously depends on the category you're in, but you just gotta be so diverse with the way that you're acquiring and thinking of acquiring customers. It's, it just pushes you to be a better marketer. And so that's, that's that's fun. Come on. That's gotta be exciting. Know super

Brett:

Fun man. And, and you know, I got my start in on on offline marketing, so TV and direct mail and stuff like that, so I love that. Now some of these top e-commerce brands that we work with at omg, they're, they're thinking about offline marketing and in store stuff and we're gonna talk about like a little bit of direct mail in some cases, which is, which is super interesting. Um, let's talk about what, what is your strategy? What is your approach to get in physical stores? Cause I think, you know, one thing that, that a lot of people know now is that hey d to see eCommerce is still a small percentage of overall retail and likely for you to grow to the heights that you want to grow to and to build this huge successful brand, it probably need some in-store distribution, right? So what, what's your strategy and what's your approach to in-store?

Nish:

Yeah, so I think that this is different for every brand and I think every brand should actually know if they're going to be a heavy business or a D two C heavy business with a blend in the future. So for us, we are a D two C heavy business that can expand further in retail. And so for us, what we noticed is when we initially went off and went into certain retailers, like very boutique ones, you know, we would, the most important metric here is sell through. And so if the people in that area don't know about you, you are not going to have success in that retailer because there's very few places that people are going to explore. Most people, when they're going to buy something, they're like, Okay, I'm gonna go in store, I'm gonna buy something. Maybe I'll pick up a few things here and there.

But like, you gotta be super intentional about that. So for us, we realize that it's important to build our name, our brand, our credibility, and our product before we go into any massive retailer because you want people to be excited about the fact that we are also available in, in a particular retailer store. I'll give you an example about Toronto cuz we are, we were a Canadian based, kind of Toronto based company and we grew in Toronto first. That was our biggest market initially when it grew there. Canada is unfortunately a terrible country for shipping. Shipping is wildly expensive in Canada and it just,

Brett:

Everything is spread out. It's, there's not a ton of people there, right? Like the population of California, but spread throughout this massive geographic area

Nish:

It is, is crazy. And it just takes so long for things to get places. So when we started in Canada, I was like, wow, this is crazy. Like it cost us $15 to ship something out. This is insane. And so, but we, we were doing it, doing it, doing it. And all of a sudden a year in people are like, I I hate how long your shipping is taking, where can I find you in store? And that is the kind of place you wanna be in because then when your retailers get your product, like people are excited to go and buy from them. And when your retailers excited, they're getting more sell through, they're being able to sell their product more and it, it, it honestly did not affect our online business. Like it actually grew our online business. So I think building brand first and building that credibility first, then going into retails in the areas where you're building that brand and, and, and credibility is really important. At least for us, it's been really important. So we, we, we got into I one as an example, you know, about this brand, but

Brett:

Yeah, yeah. I one, yeah, so, so let me, I wanna, I want to uh, key in on I one for just a little bit cuz that was a new newer brand for me as a, as a Midwest guy. But I love this strategy. If you have the skillset to build a d TOC brand first where you're someone direct to consumer online first, then, and especially if you're doing like top of funnel Facebook, top of funnel YouTube, you're, you're building a brand, you've got people out there that are thinking about your brand, then you launch on Amazon, then you go in store, you're building up this demand for your product. So it's been super fun for me to observe this, uh, you know, we're native, uh, was just native deodorant and now it's a line of native client for a long time, used to work with Mo Ali, the founder, uh, but now they're everywhere, right?

They're, they're in Walmart, they're in Target, they're in cvs, they're in Walmarts, they're everywhere. And so they were able to leverage some of their digital strengths and their digital skillset to, to greater in store sales. But you're right, there's a compounding effect, right? If I see it online, I see it in store, I see it wherever, that actually can boost online sales too. It doesn't cannibalize it. We've seen similar things on Amazon. We didn't help, um, native launch on Amazon. They, they did that themselves, but uh, when they launched on Amazon, there was no cannibalization of their in store or their, their D TOC sales, uh, just helped Boom. And Ezra Firestone launch on Amazon recently and it's gone, it's grown from zero to like 15% of sales with zero cannibalization of the D TOC sales D TOC sales are still in the same growth trajectory. So, but that all comes back to those d TOC skill sets and then leveraging your digital, uh, marketing in your paid media to, to really have impact on Amazon and in-store as well, which it's, it's pretty fun to be a part of that.

Nish:

Yeah, for sure. I I just think that this, you're building an ecosystem, you're building it over time. I think the concept that the longer you're in market with fewer products, building your community, the more people associate you with these something and then you can, I think this is the path to building a big brand. I think there's lots of people who can build a nice $5 million business with 1 million in profit and just laid off of that forever. And that's, that's one way of doing e-commerce, right? Yeah, yeah, that's totally fine. And there's the other way which is like if you wanna build big, you know, a hundred million dollar plus for lands, you gotta play the long game. And I think that in today's world, it's probably actually, I, I feel more comfortable being the long game cuz I'm just so not okay with how the entire ecosystem is working. So I think the long game is the way to win in the, in, in this entire ecosystem anyway, so yeah,

Brett:

Totally agree. I I, what's really fun about this for me is I think there was an era, there was like an era drop shipping in E-com, which is fine. There was the early days of, of success on Amazon, which was kind of just like, find some kind of product, slap a label on it, sell it, make millions of dollars. Now though I think the successful brands are brands, they're thinking about building a brand and they're thinking about how all of this compounds, just like we've been talking about Amazon in-store D toc, you're using, you know, leveraging Facebook and, and YouTube and everything to build all of that influencers, you know, having it all work together. So it it's, it's fun to see real brand building taking place rather than just tactics, you know, to, to grow sales. So, um, it's been awesome. Uh, couple things I wanna, well actually, uh, tell us about Air One cause I think, I think for other Midwest peeps or people that are not in the market of where an Aand store is, what is it and why is it so awesome?

Nish:

Well, look, Air one is this weird place, okay, Is this like the holy grail of just, uh, like explorative shopping? It's actually ridiculous. Is all these tos on about IAnd about everything costing $1,350,000 and people would be like, Oh, water for only $1 million and you go buy it. Like it is a joke. <laugh>

Brett:

Must be really great. I'm so hydrated after I drink this water. Way better than that water at the gas station? Yeah,

Nish:

Yeah. Even to regular water. So like, it's just this kind of place where you enter this location, you forget about money as a reality and you just go and, you know, explore these. It it, it is actually really cool. Like it's, it's really, um, topnotch super healthy stuff. Um, you know, things that are just extremely new and revolutionary in the food space and the alcohol space and the supplement space, whatever you want to call it. And they just have everything for anybody with, with any sort of even food intolerance or whatever digestive issue you might have and whatnot. And it's such a cool everything

Brett:

For anybody. If you're somebody who has cash, that's,

Nish:

You're somebody who has, that's first thing

Brett:

Yeah. Disposable income, that's what we're looking for for sure. Uh, awesome. So, so Nish, what, what is next for Array?

Nish:

Well, I am really just excited about coming up with more products that can help more people. I think we've been in market for about two years with just the two products below and comp, we just released our sleep product and I'm really excited just to create products that people can take together to solve real problems. For example, we have a lot of customers who are being able to solve symptoms of IBS and, and Crohn's and other really like symptomatic kind of deep, deep problems because of taking your products. And so you won't do expand around that Ed to be able to help people with food intolerance cuz they know whatever dairy doesn't sit with all with them or they have a chronic issue. And so we're expanding our line out so more people can just truly just help solve like very, very deep issues in their body.

Or they might even, we don't even know that they have an issue and they're just like, Ah, man, I hate eating cheese and I hate eating pizza because it doesn't stay well with me. We're gonna be able to actually help solve these problems so people can go out and eat whatever they want, whenever they want. They can even sleep and rest really well. So the whole idea behind array is like, feel your best, be your best. And we are coming here with products to help you do that in a very holistic way. So I'm just so excited for people to get hands on our products because they're gonna be so life changing, um, just in terms of getting your entire body into nice rhythm. So I'm just excited about that.

Brett:

I love it man. And I love watching your growth, you know, these, these first two years, which is crazy to even say to think about the growth you've had over just two years. So can't wait to see what the next year holds, what the next two year holds. Um, and so that's super, super exciting. Last kinda last question before we wrap up. Any any favorite resources, tools, books? This can be eCommerce focused or it can be just productivity focused or something like that, but in any favorite tools or resources you'd recommend?

Nish:

Ooh, let me think about this a little bit. So I love listening to the Smart Marketer podcast when it comes to all things related to like e-commerce advertising and, and whatnot. I actually really like the Triple Whale weekly emails that they send out. They're,

Brett:

Those emails are great. Yeah, they're fantastic. I get to meet, I get to meet Rob at a, we both spoke at Nick Shackleford, it's the Geek Out event. Rob's one that kind of puts those emails together. Yeah, very thoughtful, fun, but like, gets gets to the point. And yeah, that, that email list is great. That's one that I regularly read. Yeah.

Nish:

Yeah, that, that one's amazing. And then my other favorite just books in general that I like to draw parallels from. I love the Blitzscaling book by Reed Hoffman. I think that's such a good book to read. You're an entrepreneur. It

Brett:

Is. So Reed Hoff Hoffman has a great podcast. So we called the Masters of Scale. I dunno if you've listened to that, but that is a fantastic podcast. Fantastic. But I, I'm not familiar. What's, what's the book you just mentioned?

Nish:

Blitz Scaling, b l i t z Scaling. It is one heck of a book. It really just, it just talks about how to spend money efficiently and very quickly and out career competitors and, and do that in different markets. It's very tech focused, but you can draw parallels from certain parts of it towards eCommerce and it's actually one of the main ways you've being able to grow so fast, uh, for our business. So I love that book, book. And I also loved, uh, Building a Story Brand. I think that's what the book is called.

Brett:

Yeah. Donald Miller Building a Story Brand. Yeah, I love that. I got to, I get to meet him briefly. We both spoke at TC Trafficking version Summit a few years ago where like in the, in the Green room getting this interview thing done. And uh, yeah, great guy. I've read actually several his books. One, one of his first books was about, it was called Blue like Jazz Kind, a story of his Struggles with the Church, but Some Positive Things too. Anyway, awesome Guy. And that book that's so cool. It it ties in so well to Yeah, really being a good marketer is very close to being a good storyteller. Lot, lots of parallels. And uh, yeah, it's a fantastic book. I recommend

Nish:

It for sure. And the last book is a hundred million Dollar Offers. But Alex for Mosey, that was actually a surprisingly amazing read. It was, uh, very tactical and just really helps when it comes to sales, the way thinking about offers. Obviously we all know that Offers is everything. Great book for that.

Brett:

Yeah, that's one that, um, I first saw it, I can't remember where, and I'd never heard Alex uh, speak or anything, so I first thought I was like, eh, yeah. And then, and then a friend recommended it, so I, so I got the audio book, listened to it, It's fantastic. Totally agree. A hundred million offers. Gotta check it out. Fantastic niche. So one more time, how can people check out Ray? And then can people check, uh, can people connect with you on the socials? Are you approachable? Do you like to connect on social medias are more just, uh, to the site

Nish:

<laugh>? No, I am very approachable. At least I hope I am. You <laugh>. You can find us on array.com, a r r ae.com. You can find us on Instagram and twitter@arraycoarray.co or array co. Um, our, our Twitter just got up is actually really funny. I think you'll like it. It's been blowing up. And then you can find me at plenty of niche on Instagram and Twitter.

Brett:

Plenty of niche. That's what everybody is thinking. They're like, I enjoyed this niche, I want more niche. I would like plenty of niche. And so we'll link to that as well. So Niche. Thanks so much man. It's been a ton of fun. Thanks for bringing the value and uh, look forward to chatting again soon.

Nish:

Thank you so much for, this is amazing.

Brett:

Awesome. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We'd love to hear your feedback. Leave us that review on iTunes. Shoot us a note, what would you like to hear more of on the podcast? And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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