When the pandemic left Garrett Goslin without his sommelier job, he turned his passion for pickleball into an innovative paddle company. Alongside childhood friend Kyle Goguen, CRBN Pickleball has emerged as a leading premium brand in one of America's fastest-growing sports. Their journey offers valuable lessons for any brand looking to build authentic community and stand out in a competitive market.

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Key Takeaways:

• Product Innovation & Customer Feedback: Learn how CRBN maintains its competitive edge by leveraging multiple feedback loops - from pro athletes to local ambassadors - and investing heavily in R&D to stay ahead of larger competitors.
• Building a Multi-Channel Brand: Discover their strategic approach to building a premium brand across direct-to-consumer, Amazon, and retail channels while maintaining consistent positioning and storytelling.
• Community-First Growth: Explore how CRBN built a powerful ambassador program without spending big marketing dollars, and why their grassroots approach helped them compete against established sporting goods brands.
• Founder Authenticity: See why sharing the founder's story - even when uncomfortable - has become a key differentiator in their marketing strategy and helped forge deeper connections with customers.

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The episode provides a masterclass in building a premium brand through community engagement, product innovation, and authentic storytelling.

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Chapters:

(00:00) Introduction: The Founding Story of CRBN

(09:51) R&D and Product Innovation in Pickleball

(15:03) Understanding Customer Feedback: The Heart of Product Development

(19:00) Building a Community: The Role of Ambassadors in Growth

(24:32) The Power of Authenticity: Leveraging the Founder’s Story

(28:25) Sponsoring Athletes: A Strategic Approach to Brand Visibility

(32:20) Maximizing Amazon: Strategies for Growth and Brand Building

(40:16) Future Innovations: What's Next for Carbon Pickleball?

(42:31) The Affiliate Strategy: Quality Over Quantity

(46:39) Conclusion

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Connect With Brett: 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thebrettcurry/ 
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@omgcommerce 
• Website: https://www.omgcommerce.com/

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Past guests on eCommerce Evolution include Ezra Firestone, Steve Chou, Drew Sanocki, Jacques Spitzer, Jeremy Horowitz, Ryan Moran, Sean Frank, Andrew Youderian, Ryan McKenzie, Joseph Wilkins, Cody Wittick, Miki Agrawal, Justin Brooke, Nish Samantray, Kurt Elster, John Parkes, Chris Mercer, Rabah Rahil, Bear Handlon, Trevor Crump, Frederick Vallaeys, Preston Rutherford, Anthony Mink, Bill D’Allessandro, Bryan Porter and more

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Transcript:

Garrett:

I don't think you're going to get anywhere in this sport or any industry without really trying new things. And I think that's really what's setting us apart so far is just being different.

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the e-Commerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce. And today we are talking about something that has been sweeping the nation. It's incredibly popular. I don't think it's going anywhere. We're also diving into brand building, product building, some unique marketing and growth aspects. So we're talking pickleball today and I've got the two execs from CRBN Pickleball on today. I met with these guys in Seattle at the Amazon Accelerate Conference. We hit it off, we had some mutual friends. I got one of their paddles. We became bros and we decided, hey, let's do a podcast and tell people the story behind CRBN. So with that, we've got the founder, Garrett Goslin and his right hand man. I guess I don't even know exactly how to intro you, Kyle, but Kyle Goguen as well. And so Garrett and Kyle, welcome to the show.

Kyle:

Thanks, Brad. Thanks for having us.

Brett:

Yeah, man. Really excited to have you guys. And so let's tell the story briefly because I always love it when it's like, Hey, we're business partners, we work together, but we're also brothers or childhood friends or whatever. But you guys are childhood friends now. You run a very successful business together. What is that like? And then also Kyle, I know you kind of run marketing, but you run a lot of stuff. So talk about your individual roles as well.

Kyle:

Yeah, sure. Garrett, you want to start?

Garrett:

Sure, I'll start it off. Okay. So CRBN started in late 2021. I was working in the hospitality industry as a wine sommelier and the pandemic hit and lost my job. And there's not a lot of need for people pouring wine at country clubs when you can't go to any.

Brett:

I've heard. Just a quick pause on that. I think this is an interesting, Garrett. I've heard it's very complicated to become a wine sommelier.

Garrett:

It is not easy. I was studying, there's four levels. I was studying for my level three when the pandemic hit. My boss was a master song, which is the very top level, and it took him about seven years to become a master.

Brett:

That's crazy.

Garrett:

Yeah, crazy.

Brett:

So do you still like to impress people with your wine knowledge at parties and things like that, or you

Garrett:

It's definitely fallen off a bit. I've lost some of those skills, but I can still impart some knowledge on people, but

Brett:

Got it.

Garrett:

Yeah, so it was a good time while I was doing it, but when that ended, I found myself with a lot of time. I had been playing pickleball since 2017, and so being unemployed at that time allowed me to play a lot more pickleball. I was playing every day of the week, a couple hours a day. And in that process I started kind of running up the ranks a little bit, getting a little bit better, starting to play more competitively. At that time, there weren't as many people in the game playing, so my skill level seemed a lot higher than what it would be now. It's very competitive now, and I do not compare to any of the pros these days. But

Brett:

Back And you guys in southern California area, right? Orange County is kind of where you're competing?

Garrett:

Yeah, we're in Costa Mesa, Newport Beach area. So anyways, since I was playing so much, a lot of my paddles that I was using just kept kind of falling apart, breaking, falling down, falling and losing grit, surface grit on them. And it just came to the point where I was just like, maybe there's something better out there. I feel like I can find something. And there was a company doing something with CRBN fiber on the surface at the time, but didn't really the shape that they were doing. And so I took that idea with CRBN fiber and applied it to, I would say more user-friendly shapes of paddles and had it made for myself, myself and my double's partner at the time. And the idea was we'll have these badass paddles that we'll use and play tournaments with, and it kind of worked. And then we were playing at our

Brett:

Was your goal just at that time, just like you wanted to go pro and pickleball or just playing?

Garrett:

I think so. I think, did

Brett:

You think product business at that time or you were just making the paddles so you could dominate?

Garrett:

Yeah, exactly. I didn't have that thought at all. It was really just so I could have a competitive edge. And then at the club that we were playing, people started noticing our paddle and it seemed like we were getting a lot more power and spin and longevity out of these paddles. And so eventually people started asking like, Hey, can I buy one of those? We were just like, no, they're for us, sorry. And then eventually it came to the point where I was like, all right, we'll try this out. So placed an order and a very small amount and to see how it would do, and they sold out right away within a couple of weeks. And then I kind of knew we had something going here. Then Kyle wasn't on from the very beginning. But then very shortly after, once we started getting a lot of traction and I realized this is not a one man project. I had reached out to Kyle since we've known each other for the better part of 25 years, and I knew his background and his success that he's had in marketing and e-commerce, he's the perfect man to partner with and there's a lot of trust there already. So it's worked out.

Brett:

Totally. I love it. And did you guys ever at recess in elementary school ever like, dude, one day we're going to build a business together?

Kyle:

I don't know if it was in recess, but Garrett and I have chatted about starting a business in the past. I think it was more in the college years. I mean, if I think back, actually, I think the first business that I considered pursuing first real business was with Garrett. And we went as far as meeting with people and sketching out what a business plan might look like, ended up not pursuing that idea thankfully. But it is kind of fun to think back and realize that the writing was sort of on the wall and then this sort of happy accident happened. And then we have since done it and things have gone well. And I think Garrett already touched on this a little bit, but we have very complimentary skill sets, I would say, and that plus a high level of trust makes this partnership work really well.

I mean, Garrett, as he already got into handles basically all of the r and d and since the beginning, but I mean these days we have a full-time engineer with a workshop in Southern California where we can iterate very quickly, which we might touch on later in this pod. But Garrett, he handles all of that and a lot of the branding and a bunch of other parts of the business that I'm not great at and I handle, I'm more so focused on the marketing in general and specifically that's my background. So prior to partnering with Garrett, I had a pet brand that I started 10 years ago right after college. So I spent the last 10 years building up that business, building a team, running it. And so it kind of gave me, while it wasn't pickleball, paddles gave me a ton of experience. I mean, selling dog treats online in many ways is similar to selling pickleball paddles online. So I'm able to kind of bring that experience to the table while Garrett focuses on the product, since he's frankly a much more talented player. He can bring a lot to the table knowing exactly what we want want to create.

Brett:

But I hear Kyle, that you're gaining on him because you're playing more. He's got a kid now, he can't hit the courts as much. So is your goal to beat Garrett consistently in pickleball or what he striving for

Kyle:

Sure we could say gaining on him, but I would not say quickly gaining on him. And no, I don't think that's a goal. I think my goal is to not embarrass myself

Garrett:

Like

Kyle:

That or the company. And outside of that, I'm happy with Garrett being better than me. Totally makes sense. He can have that trophy. You can keep that title. Yeah,

Garrett:

Kyle's better at me than plenty of other things, so I'm going to

Brett:

Take it out.

Garrett:

Yeah, I'll just stay number

Brett:

One

Garrett:

In e-comm.

Kyle:

There you go.

Brett:

Love it. But that is interesting that you bring that up to Casso. So selling, building a pet brand, which was very successful, you built, there are some similarities between pickleball, right? Because it's a large market, so the tam for both is large, and it takes some skill to differentiate your product amidst a lot of competition. There's a lot of competition, pickleball, a lot of competition in the pet space. And so yeah, definitely you guys have cracked the code with this combo of great product and great marketing. And so let's talk about r and d and the strength of your product because I think there's a lot of lessons there that other brands can learn from. And I remember, Kyle, you were telling me this story, Adidas, I think obviously probably put a lot of money into launching their own pickleball paddles and they flopped. And I think the theory or the guest there is they just did it right without maybe a lot of deep knowledge into pickleball and what pickleball players wanted. And so you guys are pickleball players, Garrett, you played tournaments and you're competitive and the sport. How do you approach r and d and what do you think it is that makes your product so special? Because I know one thing you guys said, and I've seen this with other businesses, when you get the product right, everything else is so much easier. Marketing is easier, distribution is easier. Charging a price that allows you to have the right EBITDA is easier. So what are your secrets to making a great product?

Garrett:

Yeah, I'll start by kind of saying that Adidas has stepped their game up. I don't want to completely disparage their name. I think first their first splash into the market was a little bit more cookie cutter, and they were just kind of testing the waters to see how it worked. But they've definitely, they've invested a little bit more into r and d and stuff like that recently, it seems.

Kyle:

I think just broader, not speaking specifically about Adidas is that I think a lot of big brands have tried to get into the pickleball space because they realize it's growing really fast. And I think early on, a lot of them just assumed, look, it's just this random hobby that's very simple. It's maybe not for hardcore athletes and they didn't put the time and effort into the r and d or they just hired, they had their existing engineers develop product or whatever, or they licensed out their brand or whatever they did where they didn't develop a very thoughtful product, frankly, which was great for us because it gave us opportunity, which Garrett's going to touch on here in a second. But it was just fascinating to see these behemoths of a company across the board come in, try to do well and have every advantage in the world, and then people not take them serious in the hardcore pickleball world.

Brett:

And it sort of seems like some bigger brands or brands that don't know pickleball just coming in and they're trying to access that market. It's an opportunity. I'm trying to take advantage of that opportunity where Garrett looked at it and said, Hey, I'm trying as a pickleball player, I'm trying to solve a problem. I am losing my grip on this. My paddles are wearing out. I want more velocity, things like that. So you're solving a problem rather than just trying to tap into an opportunity. So yeah, how do you kind approach r and d and how do you approach iteration? I know you guys are always iterating, improving, launching new products, things like that.

Garrett:

Yeah, so I mean definitely from the get go it was solely myself and a couple of drilling partners that were doing the RD for the company. And from an RD standpoint, it was like you said, just based on trying to solve a problem. And I think we started with a very innovative product and noticed that it kind of caught on that technology we found ourselves. We would start high and then get caught up to, and then we'd have to make another jump and then get caught up to, so it's always been a little bit of cat and mouse with developing and innovating. So I think that's just because that we feel like it's been kind of that chase game since the inception. That's just kind of how we position ourselves now is always trying to just set the new bar. And we really started taking that seriously a year and a half ago and decided this is what we want to be doing and really pushing the limits.

So we invested in an engineer and being able to just iterate on a dime, a new paddle every couple of days, stuff like that, just really trying to, and not being afraid to fail. That was a big thing too. And it's just really trying to just push things that haven't been done before. And if they don't work, cool, at least we tried it out. But I don't think you're going to get anywhere in this sport or any industry without really trying new things. And I think that's really what's setting us apart so far is just being different.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so good. And so you're constantly trying to look for that next thing because if you create a great product, it's going to be knocked off, it's going to be duplicated, other competitors going to catch up, and so no product lasts forever. So you got to be constantly reinventing. You've got the advantage in that you both play pickleball, you're both in the sport, but what else are you doing? Are you going to tournaments and talking to players and finding out what they want, what they're frustrated with, how are you, any insights that other brands can latch onto for how you're iterating and coming up with those next designs?

Garrett:

I think the really cool part about this sport is it has such a passionate customer base and really strong following, and you are able to track that on a lot of different levels. And I'll let Kyle kind of take over, but there's so many different platforms and channels to reach our customer and to get feedback. And we have a lot of ambassadors and we have a Discord channel and a lot of reviews, whether it be our website directly or YouTube. So there's just a lot of ways to get feedback and really have what we feel is a beat on what's going on in the world and what people are looking for.

Brett:

That's so great. Yeah. I want to talk about the marketing and growth side too, but before we do that, what are you doing to create feedback loops and to create mechanisms and opportunities where you can hear directly from your customer?

Kyle:

Yeah, for sure. So I mean, I think kind of like you mentioned at the highest level, if I think top down it's number one, the company is full of people who are passionate about pickleball players or passionate about pickleball rather. So Garrett and I are both pickleball players. Most of our team, if not all of them, are really passionate about the sport across all different skill levels. I also think that's important too. I think if it was just people at a very high level, we wouldn't be able to think holistically about the industry. So we kind of touch every aspect. We are our customers, so that's most important. And then I think going down the different level, the different tiers that I would think about it is next is our athletes. You already mentioned that we sponsor a bunch of different athletes on the pro level and the pro scene.

Garrett's working with them very closely to get them prototypes, get feedback on a regular basis outside of what he can gather himself. So you have that at a very, very high level. The athletes that we're actually sponsoring and you go down one tier below that, we have our affiliates that we work with, and these are the hardcore paddle reviewers, like the paddle heads that know every spec of every brand, all of that sort of thing. These people exist and they're really great for getting feedback as well because while they're maybe not as skilled as some of the pro athletes, arguably they know more about paddles than the athletes do. So you kind of get that perspective. And then maybe one tier below that is our ambassadors. So we have thousands of ambassadors, mostly in the US but really globally. And so we get paddles and product in their hands and whether we want them to or not, they give us a lot of feedback.

We have a closed community with them and they're telling us all the time what they, what they don't like, new product ideas. All of that is kind of built in, which has been really cool. And then I guess one level further below that is just our regular customers. So we use what you would assume different apps and tools to solicit feedback, product reviews, and just frankly emailing people as well whenever we need to. We'll just straight up ask them for feedback if they've bought a product. So that kind of covers many different people and many different stages. It really just depends on the product that we're trying to launch,

Brett:

Covers all the skillset levels and all the use cases and different types of buyers. And so it makes a lot of sense. I want to actually talk about each of those groups a little bit, but let's start with the ambassadors. So this is going to be different skill levels. Maybe some of those are competing, maybe some of 'em are not, they're just playing with their family or whatever. How are you identifying potential ambassadors and then what does that program look like?

Kyle:

Yeah, so lucky for us, we've mostly built that program with inbound. We've never really solicited ambassadors. It's just a form on our website. People share it with their friends, they're excited about the brand. I think that's a big part of this is we've built a strong brand that people want to be a part of, so they're applying. So they fill out this pretty thorough form, essentially trying to become an ambassador and our community manager vets all of them and makes sure that they're a good fit for us both in culture is probably the most important thing. Trying to make sure that frankly they're a good person ideally and someone we want representing the brand. But sometimes that's hard in a form, but we do the best we can. And then outside of that, we're looking at all different attributes, things like how good are you at the game, but also how involved you are in the community and what you are doing or what you can do to promote our products. So I mean to boil it down, I would say our ambassadors usually fit in a couple of different buckets. One of them is just the best player at your local courts. Ideally that person is repping our product, kind of that aspirational the person you want to be. Then you also have the person who's heavily the

Brett:

Person or the doubles team that they're winning all the local tournaments, what paddle are they

Kyle:

Using? If you're getting crushed by someone or a team that's using CRBN, you're going to give it another look. Then you also have the people that are just heavily involved in the community, whether they're the person club president or the one putting on little local tournaments, influencer in person locally. So that person's great. And then another bucket I would say are pickleball coaches. So those are the people that are giving people lessons, teaching them the basics or even more advanced level tips and stuff like that. What paddle are they using and what paddles are they promoting? That's hugely influential I would say. And so we just want to get as many of those people as possible and that's been a fun experience kind of vetting all the applicants that we get and building out that community.

Brett:

It's such a smart approach where you're looking at, hey, who has the eyes and ears and the influence of our target audience, and then how do we build a relationship with them? Because I think a lot of brands that we talk to really are just leaning into paid ads. And obviously I love ads, we're running an ad agency, so big believer, but the more you can do to brand build, to build a community, to get a following, to get other people out there, becoming ambassadors for you makes everything work better. So any success stories you want to call out from the ambassador program? I think this is something that a lot of brands are missing. Obviously it's a little easier for you because this is a product that is part of a community anyway and it's growing and it's fun and people like to talk about it a little harder if you're selling pain cream or something like that. But any ambassador success stories you can talk about.

Kyle:

Yeah, sure. I think mean you hit on it like you just said, there are some advantages because our product lends itself to being out in the public and in these communities. But I think the one thing, if you can figure it out, if you're a business owner and you can figure out how to build something like this, the cool thing is it's a perfect program for a bootstrapped business or one that's got a tight budget early on. This is something we were able to build just with our effort early on in the business. We didn't have a ton of funds for advertising or hiring a nationwide sales team. I think a lot of the bigger brands don't take the time to build out these grassroots efforts because they're just like, well, we'll just hire a sales team.

Brett:

Totally.

Kyle:

And yeah, that actually is effective, but in a different way. Those people are going after retailers. We want to influence the people on the ground at the courts. So I think it's just one of many different marketing tactics people should probably be using. But for us it was once we identified big how community focused pickleball was as a sport, it was a no brainer. So I think if there's any sort of community aspect to your industry, this is a perfect fit, some version of this.

Brett:

How do you incentivize your ambassadors? Are you giving them discounted product free product? Are you paying them affiliate commissions? And obviously you don't have to share anything that's confidential, but how are you incentivizing your ambassadors?

Kyle:

Yeah, no, happy to share. I mean, it's public on the application itself. So yeah, they're unpaid outside of commission that they drive through sales, and then they also get heavily discounted product. So perfect. Again, cashflow wise, it's great. I mean we're paying them after they've made the sale. It makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint and they're really excited to do it. They love the brand and they want more swag, more gear, more everything and just be as kitted out as possible I guess on the courts.

Brett:

Very cool. I want to talk about some of those other groups in a second as well, but I got a question for you, Gary, because I think this is interesting. You are a unique business in that you are the founder and you're a customer and you've got this great story. How much are you in your marketing? How much are you leaning into that founder's story versus just leaning into the brand and maybe athletes and affiliates and things like that? How do you strike that balance? Because there's this classic story of Wendy's, right? Where Dave Thompson, I believe is the founder and always they'd hire a new ad agency and the ad agency's like, well, let's get Dave out of the commercials. I want to get Dave, but nothing performed as well as having Dave in the commercials. I think it's good to have a good mix of things, but what's your philosophy on that, you being in your ads versus just leaning on the brand or other spokespeople?

Garrett:

Yeah, I mean, I don't dunno the exact percentage split, but we're definitely using that founder story and I think to pretty great success with that. I mean, like you said, I think we're getting pretty solid feedback when we do talk about my story or my journey into starting this business. It's something that a lot of people can relate to. It's a very personal story and as much as it can be awkward for me and a little, because I definitely don't want to be in the limelight, but it's cool to be able to share something that I'm passionate about and where the brand is going from my point of view. But yeah, I let Kyle kind of finish that up, but

Kyle:

I can chime in here. Garrett's a super humble guy and frankly he doesn't like being in front of the camera. He doesn't like putting his story out there and it's been something that I've been working on with him for years basically is just convincing him that this is a story that people want to hear. And absolutely, we we're well known in the pickleball industry, but we are not one of the big, big guys in the space. There is a unique aspect to us is that we are a fairly lean team. We're pretty young in our overall business journey and people want to buy from people and you tell Garrett's story and people want to buy from him and talk to him. And so from an email marketing standpoint, a lot of the emails Garrett's writing because people want to hear from him. A lot of these big brands don't have the ability to do that because the founders or the business owners are long gone. They're not part of that. And I think it's something we can take advantage of right now because Garrett is in the weeds and I think again, he doesn't love it. But we'll continue to double down on that story because I think it's a compelling one.

Brett:

And I think Dave from Wendy's didn't like it either. I think he wanted to get out of it. I think it wasn't just the ad agencies, but he never did because it always worked. And I think it's a competitive advantage for you guys, just like you said, lean into it. As you grow, there's going to be more and more people that just come to the brand because their favorite pickleball athlete use it or some friend or they just see an ad or they see it on Amazon and they buy it and they love it. But that's something you got to lean into for now, and I think it's going to continue to pay dividends. It's really interesting. We get to audit dozens of great brands, Google ads and YouTube and Amazon and stuff, and just audit a really large pet brand. I can't say who it was or who it is, but they've got these hero videos and they're funny and they're so good and they work really well.

We're going to lean into them on YouTube, but then they have these founder story videos and it's literally just the founder, one dude on camera talking about why he designed the product. And I know it costs almost nothing and not nothing, it looks good, but the comparison of the two, the hero video and that founder video and the CPAs are about the same. The founder video, they just work. So I think you got to always lean into that because people are going to resonate with that story. So love that. Glad to hear you're doing that. Let's talk a little bit about athletes for a minute. So is this something you started doing from the beginning like, Hey, let's go sponsor athletes and we're at a stage in the development of pickleball where this is not the NBA where we're going to pay somebody millions and millions of dollars to be an athlete that reps our products or is the athlete thing, is that more new for you?

Garrett:

I'll start, I guess, but I think, so the first few months before Kyle came on into the company, I have very little internet marketing experience to almost none. And so the lowest hanging fruit was to sponsor local pros around me that I knew and that were already advocates of the paddle. So it was just kind of a really easy match. They wanted to use it, and so it made a really easy relationship. Even fast forward to now, we still do sponsor a good amount of athletes because it's just really good to see those eyeballs on it. But I, there's a lot of importance on what Kyle's doing, and so I think that's really even split at this point.

Kyle:

Yeah, I mean, one thing I would say too, Garrett, I have to assume early on, well, I guess always taken inspiration from that southern California surfing industry.

Totally. Garrett and I grew up in Southern California together by the beach every day as much as possible. And so we grew up around these brands that were created in Southern California, and so much of the marketing was sponsoring surfers. And so much of what we take inspiration from is the look the field, the vibe that we're going for as a brand, but also that as well. I think that's what Garrett knew these companies were doing. We followed a similar model, and I will say we were lucky when we were kind of early days of CRBN. The pro scene of pickleball was still kind of in its infancy. It had been around for years, but it was just starting to really garner some momentum. And so you could argue ton

Brett:

Of money flowing at that point either, right? Nobody's getting necessarily rich off of being a pro pickleball player

Kyle:

Exactly early on. So it like it matched our growth. So it was like the money that was needed to sponsor a pro pickleball player was matching the money we could afford, if that makes sense. So like you said, if I were to start a basketball shoe company today, you can't afford any of the NBA athletes, but at the time we could afford pickleball athletes. It's changed drastically very quickly, but it's still a big part of our strategy. I think what I've been able to do is combine what Garrett has done, which is that grassroots effort. These players are playing with it, people see it, they get influenced, they want to buy with the digital set of things. So when we sign athletes, we're looking at white listing ads with them, creating ad content, how can we leverage their likeness everywhere in ads, but also on our website, all our landing pages, everything to just really get the most, maximize the exposure and also the benefits that come from sponsoring these people.

Brett:

Super smart. I think that that's where you really can make a sponsorship pay for itself. You never know. You sponsor an athlete and then you may find out, yeah, they're not really that outspoken about my product, but if you structure where, hey, we're getting videos with this athlete and then we're going to create mashups with other athletes, we're going to run this in our ads, we're going to put it on the website, we're going to put it everywhere, emails, things like that. Now you are almost guaranteeing an ROI for that sponsorship, so very cool. So we've got these three A's right, athletes, affiliates, the ambassadors. Let's pivot to another A really quickly, then we come back to affiliates if we have time. But Amazon, so we met at an Amazon event in Seattle, which was super fun, but I was just a dude there attending and talking to people. You guys were guys were rising stars at the Accelerate conference. I met you guys, you had Jean jackets on with your logo and Amazon Rising Stars on it. But in all seriousness, you guys were featured by Amazon ads because you've just seen tremendous growth on the platform. I think I got a little card with my paddle that said 14 x growth, something crazy like that. But how are you guys viewing Amazon as a channel and then Amazon ads as a means to accelerate growth on Amazon?

Kyle:

Yeah, I can take that one. I think for us, our strategy frankly from the beginning is that we want to sell our products and our paddles to anyone wherever they want to buy them. And I mean if you look at just the internet, obviously that includes our website. It includes Amazon is a huge player, it includes some of the other big online retailers of pickleball equipment, but that also includes brick and mortar retail. So we sell quite a bit into retail. So we are pretty well diversified and we just want to be in front of customers wherever they want to shop. So Amazon, a lot can be said about Amazon, good and bad, but there are a lot of customers on Amazon and if they want to buy us there, we want to be there. So that's been our strategy from the beginning and we've had good success.

And I think because of that success and some of the relationships I had kind of gathered over the years with the pet business, we were able to kind of get that unique opportunity to be part of their season. One of Rising Stars, this new kind of series, this program that they've developed, that program I guess is they have it overseas and it was really successful. And then now they're bringing it to the US for the first time. So I know they're doing season two and doubling down on this. And it was a good opportunity to get a ton of content shot about our company and get some good PR and free marketing and free marketing is the best kind of marketing, I guess. So it was a good experience.

Brett:

Cannot beat that. Yeah, it was really great little documentary they put together that Amazon ads put together about CRBN pickleball and a few other brands. And so what a really cool experience to see that. And I love the way you frame that, Kyle, because we're now working with larger brands and more Omni-channel or multi-channel brands. That's really where things are headed. We've worked with Native for years and years now, and I can't really share any details there, but they started as D two C only and then when p and g bought them, P g's playbook is really retail store, that's where they grown, where they take a brand from millions to billions.

But this is what we're seeing a lot of where as we talk to bigger brands and help them craft some of their strategies, it's often retail stores are their biggest source of distribution, Amazon's second or sometimes those are flip flopped, and then D two C is third. And that's even true for brands that started D two C, but now they're just expanding. And I think it makes a lot of sense. There's still so many things that we like to buy in store trying, holding it, seeing the paddle, comparing the paddle to other paddles, or we want to buy online, we just want to buy on Amazon because it's easier and it's simpler and we can check out in seconds type of thing. So I love that approach. How do you guys view Amazon ads as that? And obviously you're a rising star there and they featured you, so you must believe in it, but how do you look at Amazon ads compared to just organic growth on Amazon?

Kyle:

Yeah, I mean Amazon ads are hugely important in my opinion, and can be hugely profitable if you do it. I think my opinion is Amazon ads are probably the most straightforward ad platform online. Totally. I mean, everyone's got their credit card out ready to shop. Conversion rates are nuts on Amazon compared to other channels. So I think it's very straightforward. It's like the most bottom of funnel traffic you could probably go after. So it's a no brainer. Obviously you need someone to be managing the ads that knows what they're doing or you need to take a course or learn it yourself or whatever. But pretty much everybody should be running ads if you're going to be selling on Amazon, I guess is my answer.

Brett:

Totally, totally. And I love that. I fully agree with that. We run an agency, obviously we offer it as a service, but we partner with Ezra Firestone and Smart marketer built an Amazon ads course just so people like it. There's a lot of people that want to learn, and at a base level, it's not rocket science. You can learn it and grow using it. And so one of the things you guys do on Amazon though that I think is so, so important, and this is what we've been telling brands for years on Amazon, is it's not just about making a sale on Amazon, it's about building a brand. You guys have an amazing storefront, you have an amazing presence. As I look at your paddles and what you're doing on Amazon, I feel like I'm buying a quality product. And then later if someone said, oh, what kind of paddle is that? I wouldn't say, oh, it's just something I bought on Amazon. I'm not really sure. I'd be like, no, this is a CRBN paddle. And I think that's a good litmus test is like, hey, if someone's telling somebody else about what they just bought, are they saying, oh, it's just something I bought on Amazon, or are they saying it's this brand? And I think you guys are definitely in that category of this brand. People are talking about you. How do you guys approach the brand building side of Amazon?

Kyle:

Well, I mean if we're talking specific to Amazon, I think it's lucky in that we're doing all that work for our website and retailers already. So a lot of times we're just taking similar content and repurposing it. I mean, Amazon has a whole slew of different requirements and different strategies you can implement when it comes to content. But yeah, we're just repurposing. Luckily we shoot a lot of stuff with our pros and a lot of different influencers and content producers. So we have a ton of lifestyle content that we just slap in a different format and put on Amazon. And that's been great. And I totally agree with you. Anything you can do on Amazon to stand out as a brand is hugely beneficial. It's a huge marketplace with every product under the sun. So anytime that you can get your logo and your brand in there and tell a story, it's worth it.

Brett:

And I think what a growing trend is, so many people have bought something on Amazon without really digging in and then they were kind of burned to buy it. And so I think there's definitely a trend where people want to buy from brands from quality, reputable brands. And so we got to lean into that. And the way I like to frame it is if I go to Best Buy and I want to buy an Apple product, it's not just an Apple products sitting on a shelf. I'm going to the store within a store, the little Apple store within Best Buy. I think that's what you should try to create for your brand. So where someone's shopping on Amazon, it's like, no, I'm experiencing CRBN. I just happen to be shopping on. And

Kyle:

I think Amazon realizes that and has started doubling down on that. I mean, every new feature they come out with is giving you more and more ability to do that. So you mentioned the storefront, same thing. We sell complimentary products, accessories and all kinds of different things. We want people to check out our store and see that we sell bags in addition to paddles for example. Those are the cheapest sales when people do that. You don't have to run ads to sell them on it.

Brett:

Absolutely. They're getting those add-ons and Hey, I've got the paddle, I love the paddle. Let me just load up with CRBN gear so I can look cool at the next pickleball tournament, make up with people jealous. But let's talk. So I want to to circle back to affiliates in just a second, but what's next? And Suge, maybe you take this on the product side. I know you may just have to tease, this may have to keep things under wraps, but what's next for CRBN?

Garrett:

So we're always coming out with new fun accessories, stuff like that. But I think most importantly, we're a paddle company, so that's where we spend all of our resources on innovation and engineering. And so we've been working on a new paddle line for the better part of a year now. And honestly, it's been just a grind trying to figure out a totally new platform for a paddle. And it's something that we're really excited about and something that we think has a potential to really change the game and change how people look at a paddle. Because right now it's just a very, not linear, but it's just the way that paddles are made right now is it's just kind of very one sided and they're like, this is how they're made and this is how they're always be kind of that. So we're just trying to flip that on its end, try something new and just say, Hey, it's not only this, it can be this or this or this. And so we're just trying to really branch out like that. So we're excited. We'll hopefully be able to announce something within the next couple months here.

Brett:

Really cool. Can't wait to see it. I love that awareness of your brand and what the brand is all about, but also what drives you, what propels you. And I think it's similar. We talked about some of the bigger brands. If you take Nike or something, they are a shoe company. Obviously the accessories and the apparel all super, super important. But I got to think that without the shoes, nothing else really has momentum. And if the shoes really fall off the map and the shoes are no longer cool, they're no longer great, I'm not going to buy the shorts either. Right? And so you guys understanding that, that you're a paddle first brand just makes a ton of sense, so very cool. Kyle, what tips, insights can you give us on affiliates? How are you finding affiliates? How is that working and is that a significant part of your growth?

Kyle:

Yeah, it's definitely a significant part. I think differing from ambassadors a little bit, I think affiliates are more of a quality over quantity play. I mean, at that level where someone has got a serious blog or social media presence or podcast or YouTube channel or fill in the blank, this is person's job or side hustle, they're focused on it and you want the best of the best that is speaking to your audience. I mean, the difference in conversion rate between the best people and the worst people is massive. And I think, yeah, we try to work with most people, but we really focus on the best people that align with our beliefs and goals, but also can sell a lot of paddles. And I think we've tried to be good partners to them. I think that's a big part of it too, is don't take them for granted.

Don't treat them like they don't matter because they do. And I think being really honest and transparent with them has been huge for us as well. I think some other brands have gotten themselves into trouble where they try to overly influenced whatever would be a review, will be on a paddle or frankly they get upset if their paddle is not reviewed. Five stars across the board. I think for us, we want our products to do the talking. Of course, I prefer someone to give us an a plus rating, but we understand things are subjective, so we want these reviewers to be authentic. And I think giving them the ability to be authentic and encouraging it is refreshing for them. So all of those things, I think most industries have these affiliates that are living somewhere and you just got to go find them and reach out and convince them that they should take the time to look at your products.

Brett:

That's really great. I love the idea that let the affiliates say what they say, let it be authentic and real. I can always tell, and I think most people can, when you watch a video and you're like, does this person really like this product? Are they really using this product or is this just a performance and they're just doing this to sell some stuff? I think a lot of times you can tell, you can sense it. Are you taking the approach where you're pretty open about who you accept as an affiliate, but then you're putting your time and resources in to those who really prove themselves that they can drive sales? Or are you pretty picky about letting someone join the program in the first place?

Kyle:

Yeah, I think we're kind of somewhere in between. I would say we're fairly picky when it comes to affiliates, but I mean if we see promise in someone, we're definitely going to double down on that. So what I mean by that is maybe they have a low, small following, but we can see the potential. I mean, this sport is so new and it's growing so fast. We've had success in kind of trying to pick the diamonds out of the rough kind of thing. You see the trajectory that people are on or that they're doing good things, it's only a matter of time until they're going to take off. So we've invested in kind of those early stage content creators, athletes, really across the board we've invested in taking flyers on people who we see promising.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so cool. I mean the industry is a rocket ship. You guys are a rocket ship, but you're doing things the right way. You're building community, you're taking risks on product, you're iterating, you're getting feedback from people, you've got multiple channels that you're using for distribution and for growth. And so love what you guys are doing. I'm going to keep watching. I'm going to be a fan on the sidelines. And also I've got your paddle. I can't wait to play. I'm very inexperienced player, but I do like it. I can't wait to track the paddle. So I'll let you guys know how it goes when I do. Awesome. If I dominate my kids on the court, I'll definitely give you guys the credit for that. So it's awesome. Hey, as people are listening and or watching, if they say, man, I want to check out CRBN pickleball paddles, where can they find it? Where can they connect with you online?

Kyle:

Just everywhere. It's at CRBN Pickleball, so CRBN pickleball and it's CRBN pickleball.com. So check us out.

Brett:

Awesome. And now in a growing number of retailers as well, so people can buy it in store and it sounds like that's really growing, so very cool. And then are you guys active on the socials? You guys like sharing the entrepreneurial journey anywhere? Are you mostly working under the CRBN

Kyle:

Name? We're pretty private. I would say just follow all the CRBN channels and when I make Garrett share stuff about himself, it'll be there.

Brett:

That's awesome. Alright, well Garrett, Kyle, so much fun. Love what you guys are doing. Keep up with the good work and really appreciate the time.

Garrett:

Awesome. Thanks Brett.

Brett:

Absolutely. And thank you for tuning in as always. We'd love to hear from you. What do you think about the show? Leave us a review on iTunes if you've not done that. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.